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16:00
@0celo7 You talk about physics 15% of the time. I think the rest of the chat does a bit better...
3
@ACuriousMind :/
Anyway, it's chat session and David seems to be absent so I'll ask the obligatory question: Anything to discuss?
vzn
vzn
0ce just ran across link (yesterday) re SJW craziness (american flavor) you might find amusing thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/07/…
Perhaps
0
Q: How is this question not too broad?

David MulderSomehow my flag for too broad got declines on this question: What is time dilation really? . Just the fact that the answer spans over 3 actually answers proofs by definition that this question doesn't below on a StackExchange site. There is a limit on answer length with a reason. Wanted to flag W...

or do we think that's settled?
Ah yes ...
16:04
Looks like @dmckee settled it.
And the guy's trying to be a dick, anyway.
@0celo7 I met hiiim
@0celo7 don't use bad words
@HariPrasad You're not my mother
"dick" isn't a bad word, it's short for "Richard"
Hey guys, I have a basic question, why is it that the notion of "Force" in QM usually ignored, even though we talk abt terms like <-dV/dx> and d<p>/dt which are similar to "force", but the books dont usually use the term force.. why is that?
16:05
Is a fever of 99.5 significant at all?
@TheGhostOfPerdition "force" is just terminology
@vzn since the election I haven't really gone back in, so I dunno. I guess it's mostly quiet, I haven't seen any flag-fests or meta posts coming out of it.
99.5C ?
@TheGhostOfPerdition Because the significance of force is classically that you think about it as acting on a point of an object. Quantum objects don't have definite positions, it doesn't really make sense to speak of a force acting on them
@0celo7 no its OK you can live longer. Trust me i'am a doctor
16:07
ohh okay
@JohnRennie no, real units.
vzn
vzn
@Mike how can one even "see" a "flagfest" if not a mod?
@0celo7 I'd say it is significant if you're boiling!
@vzn all 10k users see flags and where they're from... ?
@ACuriousMind damn Europoors, it's obviously meant to be F
16:07
@TheGhostOfPerdition while momentum is well defined because there's a momentum operator.
Snapchat is terrible.
@JohnRennie umm okay
@ACuriousMind odd, I was just reading these questions this morning. Very well done.
So we just use change of momentum and have no need to call it a force.
@JohnRennie besides i loved ur video on youtube where u were talking abt Randy and the mouse :D
16:09
@TheGhostOfPerdition please give link to it
@TheGhostOfPerdition Eh?
Can we please focus on the fever
@0celo7 No, go to a doctor
@ACuriousMind i'am a doctor
Not me who's sick.
16:10
99.5F isn't a serious fever
You need to be significantly over 100 before you start getting scared
youtube.com/watch?v=8LG6c46pw-E I'm not really sure if thats u... :/
But it is high enough that the sufferer should be taking it easy.
@TheGhostOfPerdition Not me, sorry
ooops
hehe,,, sorry
@JohnRennie sorry
There are quite a few John Rennies around.
There's one who works for Scientific American (or used to) which used to cause some confusion
@JohnRennie do you have any physics videos out there on youtube?
16:12
yep... @JohnRennie But there can be only one you :)
@HariPrasad No.
@JohnRennie any website of your's?
@HariPrasad I'm from India too :)
Re David Mulder's warm congratulations on my canonical questions, if his question got heavily downvoted and my answer got heavily upvoted I wouldn't be crying myself to sleep.
@TheGhostOfPerdition lol
16:14
Not that I'm trying to influence the jury you understand
@JohnRennie There's a "not" missing there, I think
@ACuriousMind oops :-)
@TheGhostOfPerdition where are you in india?
@HariPrasad are you self studying too?
I made it, finally... blame the great firewall
@HariPrasad Bangalore.. you?
@TheGhostOfPerdition i'am not in the present. I come from the future
@ACuriousMind (thanks)
@HariPrasad umm interesting, :D
@TheGhostOfPerdition are you in university?
16:18
nope.. I'm working as a software developer, but trying to self study physics.. aspiring..:)
vzn
vzn
@TheGhostOfPerdition what languages?
@JohnRennie rat sauce?
@HariPrasad Monty Python joke
@vzn English
@vzn Java, C#
vzn
vzn
16:19
@TheGhostOfPerdition ok do java myself
@vzn nice :)
@HariPrasad where are u from?
@TheGhostOfPerdition Are you an IT professional in Bangalore ?
I suspect there aren't enough of us in the chat room to form a representative sample of the site membership, but I would be interested to know how people feel about my recent trilogy of canonical Q/As.
@TheGhostOfPerdition i'am from kerala
Was it worth the effort, or does Mulder have a point?
vzn
vzn
16:21
@TheGhostOfPerdition what kind of apps?
@HariPrasad yeah.
@HariPrasad well i can say we are neighbours
@vzn I a fresher actually.. I'm doing some eclipse plugin development
@JohnRennie Yes and kind of, but given that we want canonical questions and answers I think the legalistic approach to "too broad" is not in the interest of the community.
@vzn are you a software professional too?
16:22
@JohnRennie starring that, hopefully people will notice later
vzn
vzn
@TheGhostOfPerdition yes. software engr. what do you mean "fresher"?
To be honest, I hadn't really looked at them
but I do kind of like the idea
@vzn I'm just out of college :)
@DavidZ Any experience physicist will find them too simple
They were aimed at the non-non-nerd, if that makes sense
non-non-... hm, that may need a definition :-P
16:24
@JohnRennie I liked them, FWIW. I'm not a "regular" but as a barely amateur physicist they were incredibly useful.
It's just that it has long annoyed me how bad 99.9% of explanations of the twin paradox are
@DavidZ Me. I'm a non-non-nerd.
@0celo7 n e r d
No, you're just a nerd in denial, that's different.
Nerds are, well, us (not 0celo7 of course)
3
Non-nerds are the ones who can't count
16:25
everything I know about Physics I learned on YouTube. :)
And non-non-nerds are the ones in between :-)
@TheGhostOfPerdition Because quantum mechanics is a Hamiltonian theory. You can do mechanics in the Hamiltonian form too, and you don't talk about force then either.
@JohnRennie what about non-non-non-non-non-nerds?
@ACuriousMind Proof?
@HariPrasad looks like a binary chop algorithm
16:26
What is a nerd, anyway
Aside. I'm teaching Classical Mechanics this semester and while student latch on the Lagrangian Mechanics as useful it is really hard to motivate them to take Hamiltonian mechanics as seriously.
@dmckee Thank you for replying :)
Thinking about it now, I suppose the canonical questions might be useful because we're always trying to increase the amount of interesting/high-level questions at the expense of uninteresting low-level questions. And the more prominent the canonical questions are, the fewer people will be asking them.
...which I guess was the point
^ This.
@DavidZ i can't understand you
16:28
More-over, where there are many versions of a question asked by beginner there are usually many bad answers as well. And because they are spead all over the bad answers don't get voted down enough.
What I mean to say is, the concern some people might have had, that having featured questions on basic topics would bring in droves of amateurs who would then proceed to ask lots of other bad questions, maybe isn't such a big deal
@HariPrasad how so?
@DavidZ simply
@dmckee have them solve the geodesic problem on an ellipsoid
I very much doubt the twin paradox Q/A will make sense to anyone who isn't already fairly confident in maths
Well, yeah, that's okay IMO.
16:29
And that category would hopefully be asking fairly sensible questions.
I think it's not possible to do without Hamilton-Jacobi theory, @dmckee
Indeed
See chap 9 in Arnold
I think questions like:
0
Q: I don't understand concept of excitation of atom (not electron)?

Shashwat ShivamHow does excitation takes place like we know about state of energy of electron and it's excitation to higher energy?? How does atom excite why is there atoms energy levels??

we just have to live with
uh....
sure?
16:31
@dmckee I tend to think of Hamiltonian mechanics as the more elegant of the two. Have you done Noether's theorem for the Lagrangian? Then you should be able to convince them that being able to directly generate the symmetry from the Noether charge is a powerful tool - in Lagrangian mechanics you can't really get a symmetry from a conservation law, in the Hamiltonian formalism it's obvious
Hey guys I hope u could help me out, I want to be a physicist, I have a job now which I cannot afford to leave to pursue higher studies (Financial constraints), So I'm only doing Self study now... I still manage to study 30 hrs per week... Any suggestions or tips on how I can do better?
@TheGhostOfPerdition how old are you? Would be planning to work as a physicist or just do it for fun?
@ACuriousMind I haven't done Noether's theorem with them in previous years. They are usually struggling to keep up with the calculus of variation.
But let me think about it. There could be something to that.
@JohnRennie I'm 23.. If I get a job as a physicist then It would be great..
@dmckee Might they then be convinced that first-order Hamilton equations of motion are "simpler" than the second-order equations the Lagrangian formalism generates?
16:33
@JohnRennie i'am 18 an i'am trying to be a physicist.
@JohnRennie But right now all I have in my mind is to become a theoretical physicist
@TheGhostOfPerdition what qualifications do you have? In the UK I'd ask about GCSEs (age 16) and A levels (age 18) but I don't know what the corresponding Indian qualifications are
@TheGhostOfPerdition are you sure? Working as a physicist seems great until you actually get to experience it :-P
@TheGhostOfPerdition Do you know what physicists do all day? What kind of job do you think you can get "as a physicist"?
@JohnRennie I have a degree in Electronics and communication..
16:35
@HariPrasad go to university and have enormous fun doing a degree, then do a PhD and have lots more fun.
Because most physicists who are not in academia end up not really working "as a physicist"
@DavidZ why do u say that? :D
Then become a software engineer and get lots more money :-)
@JohnRennie ha ha i think you had great fun
@ACuriousMind then what do they do?
16:35
@ACuriousMind This. I'm at a all teaching institution and that makes me one of the lucky ones.
Most of my grad school buddies are now out of physics entirely.
@HariPrasad The three years of my PhD were the most enjoyable of my life. It was absolutely fantastic.
... though it has been downhill since then ;-)
@sharafzaman Engineering. Math. Process optimization. Software development. Image processing. Electronics. Many things related to physics, but not really physics.
@JohnRennie what was your thesis on?
vzn
vzn
@JohnRennie only 3 yr to Phd? really? unusual!
@ACuriousMind I have a slight idea of what experimental physicists would do.. But a job for a theoretical physicist. may be a lecturer?
16:36
@dmckee Will they not be convinced that symplectic geometry is freaking awesome
@TheGhostOfPerdition pretty much just what I said, that it's not as interesting of a job as it looks from the outside. Lots of stress, low pay, and very little flexibility. It has perks, of course, but also significant disadvantages.
So are the other grad students who were taking dissertation data in JLAB Hall C the same summer as I was, and they were both smarter than me.
@vzn 3-4 years is par for the course in Europe.
@vzn in Cambridge in the early 80s that was the norm. Mind you, they worked us pretty hard.
@DavidZ then the condition in my country would be worse :D
16:38
@ACuriousMind But you usually have a master degree, right. Many (most?) US programs go straight from a BS to a Ph.D, so part of the difference is in doing the master's equivalent course work.
@TheGhostOfPerdition But why?
@TheGhostOfPerdition you should do what you enjoy and if anyone tells you not to do it listen to them then do it anyway
@TheGhostOfPerdition I don't think people without PhDs get jobs as lecturers, and most lecturers are actually researchers who are lecturing on the side.
@JohnRennie I do have plans of doing distance/ correspondence courses... I guess that is all i can do
But ... it is going to be hard to become a physicist from where you are
16:39
@JohnRennie Please help. I'am so obsessed with physics that i don't have time for my other subjects. I hate chemistry.
In the UK it's very hard to get an academic post as a physicist, and you're competing with people much younger than you and with a physics degree and PhD.
@dmckee Yes, that's right. Just saying three year PhDs are not "unusual" here.
@dmckee In the UK you go straight from first degree to PhD in three years. The first year is the masters year.
@HariPrasad Then keep plugging away at it. A lot of stuff that "physicists" do, also needs doing in other jobs. It just gets lumped under different titles. and with different auxillary work.
Well, that's how it was in the 80s, but they've discovered a lot more physics since then
16:40
@ACuriousMind Yes I do have plans of doing a Masters and a PHD, But the thing is its hard to quit my job, coz in my country Its very hard to get decent physics profession
@JohnRennie Which would be why all the British post docs are flaming geniuses.
Damn.
@TheGhostOfPerdition what areas of physics do you like most?
Have you thought of looking for a job with a company working in those areas?
Anyway, even if you don't get to be "a physicist" on your pay stub you might be able to get part of the work put on your desk.
@JohnRennie right now till what I've studied I find QM and GR most intersting :)
vzn
vzn
have wanted to do applied nonlocality experiments for ~2 decades...
16:42
For example after my first degree I was offered a job in microwave design which could have led on to a formal physics career.
There are few jobs in GR. Sorry :-(
5
vzn
vzn
@JohnRennie good advice
@TheGhostOfPerdition consider leaving your country then (india you say)...
@JohnRennie yes.. some companies do look for quantum computer R&D ..
@JohnRennie what was your PHD thesis?
There are lots of jobs that involve applied physics. I went to work for Unilever, a company that makes consumer goods then worked for 12 years studying colloid science.
16:45
@vzn yes... :D I'll have to think abt that :D
vzn
vzn
@TheGhostOfPerdition serious QM computing research is only being done in a few jobs in the world. australia is at top of list.
Anyway I want to sneak something in before the chat session ends: on generalizing the homework policy, there seems to be a clear favorite answer suggesting that some kinds of calculation requests should be on topic. We should try to figure out how to focus that. Next chat session I hope to have something more prepared to discuss on this topic, but until then, let's think about it.
(and I think my internet may be failing again... uh-oh...)
Well I think I should just keep studying and may be change my profession if I'm lucky enough to get a physics job :)
16:46
Great fun to do but utterly worthless
No increase in GDP has ever resulted from my efforts :-)
@JohnRennie hear hear
vzn
vzn
@TheGhostOfPerdition there is tons of stuff to study on the web re QM computing...
@TheGhostOfPerdition I wonder if they have anything akin to community colleges in India?
@TheGhostOfPerdition I'm reluctant to offer firm advice because I know so little about UK jobs let along Indian jobs, but I suspect you would find doing a PhD pretty hard.
@vzn yes.. thank you.. but I'm still studying undergraduate QM.. QM computing is waay up there for me
16:49
When you're fresh from your first degree it's all you know, but after a couple of years in the real world I'm not sure I could have gone back to it.
In your place I'd look for a job that involved some physics with a company where I could progress to jobs involving more physics.
@DavidZ There are... I think I should just get into one of them :)
But those of jobs are going to be experimental ones rather than theoretical
vzn
vzn
@JohnRennie you say that like its a bad thing :P
For now have fun learning physics in your own time. I taught myself (bits of) general relativity just for fun :-)
"just for fun he says" and has a golden badge in GR :D
16:52
@vzn If you work as an experimental physicist in industry then by age 40 you will either be a middle manager, a glorified lab technician or unemployed.
@JohnRennie In truth most of the jobs are mostly developmental, and many of your colleagues are going to be engineers. But development departments also do some resaerch and a physicists skills are useful for that.
@TheGhostOfPerdition if cost is a big concern, that's not a bad way to start. You can go through community college for a couple years, then transfer to a 4-year university to get a bachelor's degree, and then apply to grad schools. Once you get into grad school, you no longer have to worry about finances (well, relatively) because you get paid a stipend.
2
@JohnRennie I think @DanielSank might disagree with that one; then again, a Google lab is not exactly your average industry.
@TheGhostOfPerdition Don't be deceived by the golden badge. I know how to have fun with metrics, and that's about all. I bow at the feet of the real relativists hereabouts :-)
@DavidZ thanks for your advice.. I'll see what I do ..:)
16:53
My father was a R&D engineer for most of his career, and success in the job leads to increasing management work.
vzn
vzn
@ACuriousMind DS is young! ask him what the avg ages are around his lab!
But the place he was out had a culture which valued keeping those engineers in the lab 20-30% of their time.
@dmckee really good managers are very rare. Any big organisation will be desperate for really good managers. It's a vastly underappreciated skill.
Even then, by the last few years he did more client meetings, gant charts and spreadsheets than anything else.
@JohnRennie metric fun person why is that k constant in time
vzn
vzn
16:55
@dmckee what field was that? the midlife push to becoming mgrs tends to happen in a lot of fields (incl software engr)
@vzn He is a ME specializing in pumping systems vibrations and multi-phasic flows.
Universities continuously spit out ambitious young scientists eager to get to the bench. Someone with the skills to organise them into a productive team is enormously valuable to a company.
Coal sluries, raw crude oil, paper-pulp, and so on.
We tend to look down on managers who (we think) no longer do real science, but a good manager can achieve far more than any one scientist.
@JohnRennie Yep. Skilled technical managers are prizes for big companies.
16:58
@dmckee It's lucrative too! The reason I can afford to spend so much time on the Physics SE is because Unilever paid me so well while I was working for them :-)
@JohnRennie I don't expect to make as much at the end of my university career as Dad did when he was forty. And he was only a part-time manager (but they did give him nearly half of their new hires to train).
Outside of maths and possibly theoretical physics how many senior academics do real research of their own?
And how many do (just as valuable) research by managing their PhDs and postdocs?

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