The h Bar

5:00 PM

@Sanya Ok, so $f:X\to Y$ is surjective. We want to show that $f^{-1}(Y-f(X-U))\subset U$. Take $a\in f^{-1}(Y-f(X-U))$. Then there is a $b\in Y-f(X-U)$ such that $f(a)=b$. Now, $b\in Y-f(X-U)$ means it is not in $f(X-U)$. Now, since $Y=f(X)=f(X-U)\cup f(U)$, we must have that $b\in f(U)$.

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos youtube.com/watch?v=UD4Xz9_YZlo

If you know classical music you will find this bizarre

I actually bough this CD

0celo7

So $f(a)\in f(U)$

Bernard Meurer

It's BIZARRE

0celo7

but that's not good enough, hmm.

Bernard Meurer

But I payed 10 cents for it, couldn't hope for much I guess

Kyle Kanos

5:01 PM

@BernardMeurer TSO did that too

Bernard Meurer

Does anyone here run Fedora? If so why?

0celo7

Because I am enlightened

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos TSO?

Kyle Kanos

Trans-Siberian Orchestra

Trans-Siberian Orchestra (TSO) is an American progressive rock band founded in 1996 by producer, composer, and lyricist Paul O'Neill, who brought together Jon Oliva and Al Pitrelli (both members of Savatage) and keyboardist and co-producer Robert Kinkel to form the core of the creative team. The band gained in popularity when they began touring in 1999 after completing their second album, The Christmas Attic the year previous. In 2007, the Washington Post referred to them as "an arena-rock juggernaut" and described their music as "Pink Floyd meets Yes and The Who at Radio City Music Hall." TSO...

0celo7

> Trans-Siberian Orchestra (TSO) is an American progressive rock band

so much wrong with that

Bernard Meurer

5:02 PM

youtu.be/fR1KNIBC9CI?t=7m5s THE HORROR

Kyle Kanos

@BernardMeurer I ran it a few years ago. IIRC, it didn't support ifort particularly well.

So I gave it up

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos I'm just failing to see why would someone run it. YUM seems somehow worse than apt-get

0celo7

Pendulum 'Hold Your Colour'

►

Kyle Kanos

I've been running Linux Mint since passing my dissertation defense (March-ish of last year)

0celo7

@heather one more chance

Kyle Kanos

5:03 PM

@BernardMeurer They're basically the same thing, just different letters to type

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos Nah-uh, isn't their backend entirely different?

Or is yum a fork of apt?

heather

@0celo7, I will give it a chance, okay

Kyle Kanos

@BernardMeurer Yes, they are different in function & origin, but they're basically the same thing

sudo apt-get install python or sudo yum install python will both install python (on the appropriate OS, of course)

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos Well, sure, I see what you mean, but they're both slow and idk about yum but APT has some pretty dangerous commands

like autoremove which I've seen wreck computers before

0celo7

@heather well?

Bernard Meurer

5:10 PM

@knzhou What up

heather

@0celo7, I just started listening to it because I had to do something for my dad

Kyle Kanos

@BernardMeurer rm -rf /will do wonders on any Linux OS

heather

so far it isn't terrible, which I suppose is a good sign

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos No it won't. You need the --no-preserve-root for it to be effective

so rm -rf --no-preserve-root /

That will burn the fields

I actually tried it once

it's awesome

It's SO FAST

Kyle Kanos

That's true, you do need to do that. But still, there's easy ways to destroy Linux without autoremove

heather

5:14 PM

@0celo7, okay, this one isn't too bad, I'll give you that.

0celo7

DJ Tiesto - Adagio For Strings

►

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos One nice way to do it is to recompile the kernel with fucked up options and installing it on the rootfs :P

0celo7

@heather aha!

Emilio Pisanty

@heather see this comment. It would be good for you to ask directly what the deal is with links in comments.

0celo7

Pendulum - Witchcraft (Official Video)

►

Bernard Meurer

5:15 PM

or doing chmod -R 777 /

Kyle Kanos

Suppose I'm less versed in ways to destroy this OS than operating it

Probably for a good reason to

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos Do you have a TI Nspire CX CAS?

heather

@EmilioPisanty, okay, thank you.

@0celo7, maybe I'll listen to those, for now I'm listening to my own stuff =D

Kyle Kanos

@BernardMeurer No. I've got PARI/GP, a TI-89, a TI-86 and a TI-83

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos Ah, if you did I'd link you to my post on how to run Linux on them :P

Kyle Kanos

5:18 PM

I've got some solar-powered calculator somewhere around the house, but one of the kids was pretending it was a cell phone and did not return it where it was

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos How do you protect things with so many kids?

0celo7

@Sanya I have one direction!

Kyle Kanos

@BernardMeurer You give up getting/keeping/maintaining expensive things

One Direction

One Direction (commonly abbreviated as 1D) are an English-Irish pop boy band based in London, composed of Niall Horan, Liam Payne, Harry Styles, Louis Tomlinson, and previously, Zayn Malik until his departure from the band on 25 March 2015. The group signed with Simon Cowell's record label Syco Records after forming and finishing third in the seventh series of the British televised singing competition The X Factor in 2010. Propelled to international success by social media, One Direction's four albums, Up All Night (2011), Take Me Home (2012), Midnight Memories (2013) and Four (2014) topped charts...

?

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos Noted, not having kids

@KyleKanos Thought the same thing lol

0celo7

@KyleKanos no, one direction of a proof

an iff proof

Kyle Kanos

5:20 PM

Doubt it

You're a secret 1D fan

Probably been to all their concerts

0celo7

I actually don't know any of their songs or band members.

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos He has a Niall waifu pillow

Kyle Kanos

@0celo7 Their names are in the onebox

0celo7

@KyleKanos I can read.

Kyle Kanos

Richie Branson - Iron Fist

►

0celo7

5:23 PM

DJ Khaled - How Many Times (Official Video) ft. Chris Brown, Lil Wayne, Big Sean

►

Kyle Kanos

Well I've gotta head out now. Gotta tend to the kids and such

Good hearing from you all

See you around next month or so

0celo7

bye

Bernard Meurer

@KyleKanos Nice seeing you man! Good luck with the new kid!

0celo7

@Sanya GOT IT

heather

@KyleKanos, good meeting you, have a good day!

0celo7

5:26 PM

$$(f^{-1}(V)\subset U)\Leftrightarrow(f(x)\in V\Rightarrow x\in U)\Leftrightarrow(x\notin U\Rightarrow f(x)\notin V)\Leftrightarrow(f(X-U)\subset Y-V)\Leftrightarrow(f(X-U)\cap V=\emptyset)$$

Clearly $V=Y-f(X-U)$ satisfies the last condition

@BernardMeurer Do you need any help?

I'm about to play fallout and can Skype

Bernard Meurer

@0celo7 Yeah, let me go buy some soda because I'm low on sugar

then I'll do analysis problems and we can skype

0celo7

k

Bernard Meurer

Fuck, I'm out of coins again

I hope the EU dies so I don't have to deal with these annoying Euro coins

heather

@BernardMeurer, I'm taking a break from Turing machines and I'm writing some code that's supposed to find the factors of a number

and it is bad, there's something very wrong

0celo7

Text me when you get back.

heather

5:32 PM

but I don't know what is wrong

0celo7

Or Skype, finally got it to work again.

@heather do you want to join the Skype call?

user507974

@MAFIA36790 i definitely didnt dislike kittel, just felt like it could have been much more effective with a little work, exactly what though i dont remember

heather

@0celo7, well, first question, what's it about? I'm not even sure my parents will let me, actually

0celo7

You're an adult

What are they gonna do

user507974

lol whats this convo about?

heather

5:36 PM

one moment, brb

but they could revoke my computer privileges

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer What is there to "deal" with?

0celo7

@BernardMeurer hello?

You broke fallout and Skype

Bernard Meurer

@0celo7 I'm skilled like that

@ACuriousMind They're worth too much for being coins, and the 50 cent is WAY larger than the 1 euro, and the 2€ one is way too big a coin too. Also the 1 cent and 5 cent look too much alike

0celo7

I'm accepting the invites

Bernard Meurer

@0celo7 I can hear you

And my mic works

Check your audio

ACuriousMind

5:42 PM

@BernardMeurer I don't know what "worth too much for being coins" means - what is bad about having a 2€ coin?

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind I can pay my whole lunch with one coin

that's not right

ACuriousMind

why not?

heather

yeah, I probably can't skype

thanks for inviting me though!

ACuriousMind

Also, where do you get a full lunch for 2€? :O

Bernard Meurer

Because that's not why god made coins!

@heather Never skype with us

heather

5:44 PM

@BernardMeurer, why not?

Bernard Meurer

We're internet strangers as far as you know

heather

Well, yeah, I suppose

but you seem like nice internet strangers =P

Bernard Meurer

maybe we're just insane human traffickers wanting to sell you as a science-slave for the chinese government

@ACuriousMind Near Uni :p

heather

and anyway, you're teaching me about Turing machines, how bad can you be?

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Well, you're definitely insane, Mr. Potato Overlord :P

@BernardMeurer God made coins? Who knew!

Bernard Meurer

5:46 PM

@ACuriousMind What? If she was my daughter I wouldn't let her talk to me :P

heather

@BernardMeurer, no I know what you mean, i just am being sarcastic

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Not saying you're wrong, just saying you're insane no matter whether you're a human trafficker or not

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind I'm not insane, it's the 2€ food getting in my brain

heather

besides, for some reason I do kind of trust you, which I guess is kind of the whole point behind the "don't meet strangers who are on the internet" thing. =)

@BernardMeurer, what is wrong with 2 euro food? Sounds pretty good to me!

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer wat

You had insane plans long before you moved to Lisbon :P

Bernard Meurer

5:48 PM

@heather I've only had that and frozen food in the past 2 months

@ACuriousMind Okay, you got me there :p

heather

@BernardMeurer, I still don't see how it is bad

Bernard Meurer

@heather Kidneys are worth a lot

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer She means she doesn't see why 2€ food would be bad.

Your reply doesn't make much sense for that :P

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind Ah, okay, scratch that

@heather Idk, but it's bad

@ACuriousMind How much do you pay for lunch @ uni?

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Depends, I usually eat at the buffet, where you pay around 0.80€/100g There are other lunch options ranging from 2.70€ to around 5€ for a "full" meal, with varying interpretations of what full means.

Bernard Meurer

5:54 PM

@ACuriousMind The buffet I eat near my home is 3.90€ For a LOT of food

0celo7

@ACuriousMind what is a compactly generated space?

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 why do you not look that up?

0celo7

Cuz I'm playing Fallout and talking to Bernardo

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind Come join

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer no, I'm playing a game (I don't know how @0celo7 can play and talk simultaneously, that would distract me too much)

Bernard Meurer

6:00 PM

@ACuriousMind Excuses, excuses :P

0celo7

I'm not playing, the game is crashing

Bernard Meurer

Come on, I'm doing analysis problems, it's FUN

0celo7

Fucking Bethesda

Worst company ever

@ACuriousMind Fallout won't open without crashing

Should I reinstall?

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 any mods active?

0celo7

@BernardMeurer it's a Skype issue

@ACuriousMind nah

Skype and Fallout cannot run together apparently

Bernard Meurer

6:07 PM

wtf

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Telling Steam to "verify integrity of game cache" is usually preferable to reinstallation

@0celo7 Try starting F4 first, then starting the Skype call

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind He just did and it went back in time and killed his father

user218912

hi

user218912

can I be in the skype call ;(

user218912

or is it over

user218912

6:18 PM

@BernardMeurer I made a new skype btw, forgot my old pass and email.

Secret

6:35 PM

Volterra's function

In mathematics, Volterra's function, named for Vito Volterra, is a real-valued function V defined on the real line R with the following curious combination of properties: V is differentiable everywhere The derivative V ′ is bounded everywhere The derivative is not Riemann-integrable. == Definition and construction == The function is defined by making use of the Smith–Volterra–Cantor set and "copies" of the function defined by f ( x ) = x 2 sin ⁡ ( ...

mind=blown

heather

okay, I'm back.

i hate shutterstock.

Physics Meta

7:13 PM

-1

Q: CAN anyone please re-examine this question?

Can people please reopen this question. Spring in a railway carriage Or can they give me a reason as to why it is an off-topic question?

Obliv

7:56 PM

@0celo7 dangit i keep getting the wrong eq. of a tangent plane for this problem. given $z = 3x^2 - y^2 + 2x$ isn't $\nabla f(x,y) = (6x+2)\vec{e}_x - 2y\vec{e}_y$?

oh okay it is but i'm dumb and forgot to evaluate it at the point they were asking before doing the inner product b/t that and line

ACuriousMind

8:16 PM

Hey @JohnRennie how was the concert, anyway?

John Rennie

Well live gigs are always good just because they're live ...

But ... well ...

I've seen them play better.

I suspect the front man, Ron Tree, was unwell because he normally talks to the audience a lot, but last he didn't talk much and they filled in a lot of the gaps between the tracks with improvisation.

A shame, but it happens. To be honest it's as much a social occasion as a determined attempt to hear music, and it was fun to get together and gossip with old friends. So the evening wasn't a total loss.

heather

@ACuriousMind, is the answer here alright?

Or should I just not have bothered?

John Rennie

Saxon have been supporting them on some of the gigs, but not at Chester, which was a shame as I'd like to have see Saxon again. The support were a local group who were actually very good.

ACuriousMind

@heather looks alright to me, but you don't say much there that's not already been said a dozen times in other places, so I wouldn't have bothered. It's your time to waste, though ;)

@JohnRennie Heh, I saw Saxon at Wacken this summer

heather

@ACuriousMind, yeah, I wrote it because I was procrastinating ;)

Obliv

8:50 PM

@acuriousmind is there a name used for gradient of a function but to 2nd order partial derivatives

ACuriousMind

@Obliv I'm not sure what you mean

Obliv

like $\nabla' f = \frac{\partial f_x}{\partial x} + \frac{\partial f_{x_2}}{\partial x_2} + ...$

ACuriousMind

Why would one want to look at that thing?

Obliv

it is normal to both the gradient & tangent lines on a tangent plane isn't it?

ACuriousMind

As written, that's a number and not normal to anything.

Obliv

8:54 PM

i meant to put unit vectors mb

$\nabla ' f = \frac{\partial f_x}{\partial x}\vec{x} + \frac{\partial f_{x_2}}{\partial x_2} \vec{x_2} + ... $

ACuriousMind

...how is that different from the gradient?

Obliv

taking the partial of the partial derivative $f_x$ w.r.t. x

for first term, same thing for all terms of the gradient

ACuriousMind

So $f_x$ is the derivative of $f$ w.r.t. x?

Obliv

yep. sorry if that wasn't clear

wait does that even make sense

Danu

Hi @ACuriousMind

ACuriousMind

8:57 PM

Hey @Danu

DanielSank

9:08 PM

Hi, everybody.

@ACuriousMind Mead brew day tomorrow!

\(^.^)/

heather

@DanielSank, hello!

DanielSank

hi

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank Yay! How much do you typically make at once?

Danu

Hi @DanielSank

DanielSank

@ACuriousMind Five gallons, but tomorrow will be one or two.

I need to run an experiment before I go for a 5 gal batch.

I bought a bunch of extra 1 gal jugs for parallel experiments.

Gotta increase the throughput.

@Danu yo

ACuriousMind

9:17 PM

@DanielSank Experimenting with different ingredients, different methods, or both?

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind He's trying human blood

He extracts it from the octopus-fishers he hunts

Danu

Ah, do you actually eat octopus, @DanielSank? :P

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Mhhhhh, blood mead

DanielSank

@Danu No.

>:(

@BernardMeurer Do you have any idea how cruel octopus hunters are? They shoot bleach into the octopuses' dens to force them out.

Bernard Meurer

@DanielSank I figured you'd drink the blood of your enemies :P

DanielSank

9:32 PM

Can you image that? You're sitting in your safe spot, in your room, when suddenly it's filled with noxious chemicals. You can breathe, you can't see, you feel like you're going to die, so your stumble out.

Then you get scooped up to be served as someone's lunch.

@ACuriousMind Both.

Bernard Meurer

@DanielSank Seems like a mix of the middle ages and WWI

DanielSank

I've been using avocado blossom honey with mild success. This time, I'm switching back to orange blossom. I'm also going to be more careful about getting all the yeast out of the liquid.

Bernard Meurer

@DanielSank How are you getting the yeast out?

DanielSank

If i make two batches, one of them will be finished with fruit... probably strawberries although I kinda missed the timing on that :(

@BernardMeurer Rack the liquid several times after leaving it in the refrigerator. That's the plan anyway.

@BernardMeurer Yes, which is why I don't find it particularly funny.

Bernard Meurer

"Rack" the liquid?

DanielSank

9:34 PM

It's horrible.

Racking

Racking, often referred to as Soutirage or Soutirage traditionnel (meaning racking in French), also filtering or fining, is a method in wine production of moving wine from one barrel to another using gravity rather than a pump, which can be disruptive to a wine. The process is also known as Abstich in German and travaso in Italian. Alexis Lichine's Encyclopedia of Wines and Spirits defines racking as "siphoning wine or beer off the lees (in the case of wine) or trub (in the case of beer), into a new, clean barrel or other vessel." Racking allows clarification and aids in stabilization. Wine that...

Oh, @BernardMeurer I completely misread your message.

"octopus fishers"

Bernard Meurer

@DanielSank Did you read that you fish octopus hunters?

DanielSank

So yes, octopus fishers' blood will make a nice touch in the wine.

@BernardMeurer I read it as "He extracts it from the octopuses he hunts".

Bernard Meurer

@DanielSank Ah, no, come on man I know you better than that :P

DanielSank

@BernardMeurer Indeed.

Danu

Would you eat them if hunted humanely?

DanielSank

9:36 PM

Anyway, my reaction makes sense either way ;)

Bernard Meurer

You blasted my ass for showing you the squid I was having :P

DanielSank

@Danu Octopuses? No.

@BernardMeurer Yep.

Danu

@DanielSank OK

Other fish?

DanielSank

I don't eat a lot of meat as it is.

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind What's the definition of a limit to infiinity?

DanielSank

9:37 PM

@Danu I really, really dislike the taste of fish.

Danu

@DanielSank Whoa, really?

Now that

Bernard Meurer

@DanielSank You served fish in your wedding dawg

Danu

is something I can relate to!!!

Bernard Meurer

What's up with that

DanielSank

@BernardMeurer People like it. Doesn't mean I have to eat it.

@Danu Oh yeah?

Danu

9:37 PM

Yeah man

Bernard Meurer

@DanielSank bah

Danu

Can't stand it

DanielSank

To me, 99% of fish smell/taste like sewage.

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer You may take $\lim_{x\to \infty} f(x) = \lim_{y\to 0} f(1/y)$ as one, where 0 is approached from above.

Bernard Meurer

FYI it was delicious

Danu

9:38 PM

It's not just the flavor though... The wavey-flaky structure also grosses me out

DanielSank

I think it's genetic. My two half-brothers both hate it too.

Danu

Raw fish doesn't have either of the problems, so I do like sushi

Is basically like raw meat from land animals, which is pretty nice.

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind bah, but I need to somehow show that $\lim_{x\rightarrow\infty}\frac{1}{x^2}=+\infty$

DanielSank

They can't stand anything that comes from the ocean. I used to be sort of ok with crabs and shrimp until it turned out I've very allergic to shellfish.

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Sure, can't you show that $\lim_{y\to 0} y^2 = +\infty$?

Bernard Meurer

9:39 PM

@ACuriousMind It seems obvious but I have no clue how to maths-prove it :/

Danu

@ACuriousMind Eh, what?

ACuriousMind

lol

That doesn't make any sense

Danu

Indeed it doesn't.

DanielSank

@BernardMeurer Do you understand what a limit is?

Let's say we want to know if a sequence's limit is $x$.

Say the sequence is $\{x_0, x_1, x_2, \ldots \}$.

We play a very simple game.

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Your claim is wrong

That limit is 0

Bernard Meurer

9:42 PM

$$\lim_{x\rightarrow 0}\frac{1}{x^2}=+\infty$$

Typo!

DanielSank

I draw a boundary around the supposed limit $x$, thus keeping a small set around $x$, i.e. $\{x-\epsilon, x+\epsilon\}$.

Your job is to find some $m$ such that every $x_n$ after $x_n$ is within this small set.

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Oh, so you're not asking what a limit to infinity ($x\to\infty$) is, but what the limit "being" infinity means!

Danu

Limit larger than $a$ for any $a\in \Bbb R$.

DanielSank

In other words, I pick a degree of closeness, i.e. $\epsilon$, and you have to show me that after a certain point, all of the elements in the sequence are within that degree of closeness of $x$.

If that's true, $x$ is the limit of $\{x_n\}$ as $n \rightarrow \infty$.

Danu

^so this breaks down a bit for infinity

But the idea is of course that "larger than anything" is "close to infinity" so the intuition is still right

Bernard Meurer

9:45 PM

@people I gotta go eat something real quick b/c people are waiting on me. Sorry for leaving mid-question, everyone got ready faster than expected. I'll come back to this soon$^{\text{tm}}$. Thanks!

DanielSank

Soon$^\text{TM}$.

LOL

heather

'int' object not iteratable - why?

I'm working in py3 and trying to iterate through a list to check which numbers are palindromes and it is giving this error

(::sigh::)

ACuriousMind

::dusts off rusty python knowledge:: That sounds as if you tried to iterate through the number and not through the list of numbers to me

heather

hmm, let me check

for i in multiplylist:

is the line it traces back to...

ACuriousMind

Sure. What's the definition of multiplylist?

heather

9:57 PM

def multiply1(num1, num2):
while num1 < 1000:
x = num1*num2
multiplylist.append(x)
num1+=1

def multiply2(num1, num2):
while num2 < 1000:
multiply1(num1, num2)
num2+=1

(with proper spacing)

basically, the list of all the products of two 3 digit numbers.

ACuriousMind

That's the definition of two functions I've not seen before. I asked what the definition of multiplylist is!

DanielSank

link to code?

heather

@ACuriousMind, multiplylist is defined in that first function, that's what I mean, in the line where it says multiplylist.append(x). At the very beginning it says multiplylist = [], if that's what you mean, but I thought you wanted to know what was in it.

DanielSank

@heather Heh, can I see the code? I have a hunch about what's going on.

heather

@DanielSank, yeah, sure, one moment

DanielSank

10:02 PM

There are two weird things about python that make no sense, and I think you might have just encountered one of them.

heather

here it is @DanielSank

DanielSank

On which line is the error?

David Z

@heather omg you committed the horrible sin of mixing tabs and spaces :-P

DanielSank

^ Aya! This cannot be allowed!!!

heather

What, I did!? I was so careful (not)! I'll fix that right now!

David Z

10:09 PM

It might be your editor to blame

heather

@DavidZ, nope, it was me, I'm pretty sure

But anyway, I fixed it and another hiding syntax error, and now it gives the int not iterable error again

ACuriousMind

My limited knowledge sees no reason that code shouldn't work

David Z

@heather yeah, I can reproduce that.

I think if you rename one of the the two definitions of palindrome , it will fix the error

ACuriousMind

oh

heather

@DavidZ, yep, now it doesn't give an error

ACuriousMind

10:11 PM

Ha, yeah, the second one tries to call itself with i as argument, not the other one, that gives the error

David Z

That's the gist: the second definition of palindrome replaces the first one, so when you call palindrome(i) in line 25, the function is calling itself

heather

That makes sense, yeah.

Except, unfortunately, there's a logic error somewhere, because the list is empty.

David Z

huh, not for me...

DanielSank

Oh, I see the problem.

David Z

@heather When you renamed the function, you did also change the name in the place where it's called, right? Just checking the obvious

i.e. line 30

heather

10:15 PM

@DavidZ, nope, I didn't. Wow. =P Okay, now it works

David Z

cool :-)

heather

Thanks everyone!

DanielSank

I really wish there were a compiled, statically typed language with a build system that wasn't as horribly confusing as C and C++.

@heather Actually, this program you've written would be a good thing to try to write in C once you get the python version working.

dmckee

@DanielSank I heard a rumor that go was suppose to have a cleaner build system. Or I might be imagining it.

DanielSank

It's very useful to have some experience in different kinds of languages.

2

heather

10:17 PM

@DanielSank, okay, I'll try that!

DanielSank

@dmckee I believe that's true but I haven't tried it.

David Z

@DanielSank agreed, though I would not go so far as to recommend learning more than one programming language at once.

DanielSank

@DavidZ I think it's very important to understand what a type system is, even if you're using python.

In fact, why not take a very simple program, like Heather's, and write it in two or three languages, right at the beginning?

dmckee

It is certainly true that most people mistake some feature (or often many features) of their first language for laws of nature until they are forced to come to terms with another language that does those things differently.

Learning some assembly and then writing a toy compiler ala Crenshaw's 'Let's build a Compiler' is useful for illuminating how much about programming languages are choices in the hands of the author.

heather

learning assembly...that sounds scary...especially because my dad once wrote some code in it and told me it was a royal pain

Yes! Just solved the 5th Euler Problem in 11 lines of code =)

David Z

10:27 PM

@DanielSank I certainly agree that type systems are important, but I think learning the different syntax and structure of several languages at once is likely to cause more confusion than it solves for a very long time. For a simple program like this one it might not be too bad though.

dmckee

@heather It really matters what processor you are learning assembly for. There are instruction sets that were, in some sense, optimized for human use. And other that no same human would willingly work in.

Crenshaw assumes you are programming a m68000 which is a chip with a really beautiful instruction set (if one a little too big to be beginner friendly, but Crenchaw only uses a small—beginner friendly—portion of it).

But that is neither here nor there while you are first learning to program. Even Crenshaw's toy compiler is a project for someone comfortable writing projects with 10,000 lines of code. You need some practice first.

Alfred Centauri

11:05 PM

@dmckee I learned me some assembly language programming many (many) moons ago on one of these: vintage-computer.com/heathkit3400.shtml These units are still quite available on ebay. Beware, you must hand assemble your code.

heather

11:21 PM

@dmckee, thank you for the advice.

0celo7

11:49 PM

@heather I...forgot my Imgur password.

heather

@0celo7, again!? =P

0celo7

No, what the hell

My imgur account is GONE

resetting all my passwords again