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2:02 PM
ACM the diplomat
 
@ACuriousMind : Thanks.
 
@ChrisWhite Ah, thanks! I think I might talk to some professors about indep study in abstract algebra. I just actually crunched the numbers and the grad algebra course conflicts with my stat mech class.
 
2:17 PM
Hey! I have got a doubt. I have been reading about special relativity these days and they say that your speed basically indicates the direction of your motion through space-time. But what does that mean?
I mean is space-time considered as an absolute entity which is always there as it was considered about space before 1905? (I haven't been familiar with general relativity so I wanted to answer my question within the domain of SR only, even if it is not adaquate to describe actual physical reality)
 
@Dvij Yes. In classical mechanics you have coordinates labeled by (x,y,z,t) and in special relativity you have coordinates labeled by (x,y,z,t).
 
Sorry, i didn't get your point
 
In classical mechanics the laws of physics are invariant under the transformation $(\vec{x},t) \mapsto (\vec{x}+\vec{x}_0+\vec{v}t, t+t_0)$
and in special relativity they're invariant under a lorentz transformation + translation
 
Also rotations!
 
indeed
 
2:21 PM
@Slereah did I say boost? :P
 
classical mechanics has rotations too
 
oh
derp
 
Okay...thanks :)
 
@Dvij my point is that it's an absolute entity but that it has different transformation laws. Phrased differently, it has different symmetries.
 
let's do a linear algebra problem!
 
2:23 PM
Solve x = 0
 
suppose we have two lines, one of which goes through points P, Q and the other which goes through R, S
what is the distance between these lines
 
@Slereah You didn't specify on which space :P
 
I don't think that's gonna influence the solution much
 
@ACuriousMind $\cup\text{all spaces}$
 
@0celo7 Uh...unless the lines are parallel, 0, since they have to intersect in Euclidean geometry, no?
 
2:24 PM
@ACuriousMind in $\mathbb{R}^3$
 
@0celo7 Meh parameterize the lines by $(P-Q)t_1+Q$ and $(R-S)t_2+S$ and minimize the magnitude squared distance.
 
@Slereah That's no excuse for ill-posing the problem.
 
I should not have to do a multivariable minimization problem
 
you're ill posed
 
2:26 PM
DAMN
 
@0celo7 You need not
 
@ACuriousMind well how do I minimize that then
without doing a minimization problem
 
Think: What must the line representing the distance fulfill?
 
heyy cleverer. I like using hammers though.
 
(My version needs no minimization at all, just a bit of geometry)
 
2:29 PM
no clue
 
@NeuroFuzzy If you have someone doing the math for you, that's fine. Otherwise, I prefer the clever ways ;)
 
it is probably the height of a parallelepiped or something
 
@ACuriousMind I bet they result in the same equations though ;)
 
@0celo7 It's perpendicular to both lines.
 
@ACuriousMind I knew that...maybe
yes, I knew that
well, what does that do for me
 
2:31 PM
Now, it's easy to get the perpendicular direction from the lines, and you just need to project the distance between any two points on the lines onto that direction to get the distance of the lines.
 
what
 
Heh, I expected that. It's a bit difficult to explain in writing, but I'll try:
 
I think I need a...picture
@Secret
time to shine
 
Think about the perpendicular line. There is a plane spanned by it (and some other vector) such that the projections of the two lines onto that plane are parallels
 
2:35 PM
And that rather immediately means that the projection of any lines connecting two points on the two lines onto the perpendicular line is the distance between the lines.
 
@Acuriousmind @0celo7 It's two years ago I am not sure if I still rmb clearly...
 
It's a bit difficult to draw the 3D picture, anyways
 
I know what that perpendicular distance look like, but I forgot how I need to position it to allow convenient calculation
 
I still don't get it
 
@0celo7 Do you agree with
7 mins ago, by ACuriousMind
Think about the perpendicular line. There is a plane spanned by it (and some other vector) such that the projections of the two lines onto that plane are parallels
 
2:42 PM
Nope
 
Do you not understand what I mean, or do you not know why it should be the case?
 
The latter but it could be the former.
 
@ACuriousMind you fill in the details, my mem is failing me
 
@0celo7 Let's first fix some terminology, otherwise this gets weird to follow: I'll take $\vec d$ for the perpendicularly connecting line, $\vec a$ for $\overline{RS}$ and $\vec b$ for $\overline{PQ}$.
 
ok
 
2:46 PM
Now, you can rotate one of the lines about $\vec d$ such that they become both parallel.
 
yes
 
Okay. But if you can, say, rotate $\vec a$ about $\vec d$ such that it becomes coplanar and parallel with $\vec b$, that means that the projection of $\vec a$ into the plane spanned by $\vec d$ and $\vec b$ is also parallel to $\vec b$.
 
right
 
So, every line that connects one point on $RS$ to one point on $PQ$ projects to a line connecting two parallels in this plane
 
yes
 
2:51 PM
And if you project such a line now onto the perpendicular direction, you get a perpendicular line connecting two parallels. The length of such a line is the distance between them.
 
this is the suggested solution method
no clue how he gets it
@ACuriousMind ok, how do you actually calculate that though
 
@0celo7 Well, what operation gives you the perpendicular direction to two vectors?
And what operation gives you the length of the projection of a vector onto another vector?
 
cross product
dot product/length
 
Correct
 
please decipher the suggested solution method
 
2:54 PM
So, if you now use that to first calculate $\vec d$, and then project, say, $\overline{PR}$ onto $\vec d$ after you normalized it, you get the distance.
(The resulting formula is the same as in that solution)
 
so is $\vec d=\vec a\times\vec b$
@ACuriousMind yeah I get that, but I don't get how the solution given works
why is the dist = height of parallelepiped
 
@0celo7 The volume of a parallelepiped is $\text{base surface}\cdot\text{height}$.
You choose as base the plane spanned by $PS'Q$, then the height is the projection of $\overline{PR}$ onto the direction perpendicular to that plane.
Dividing out the surface area, what's left is the projection of $\overline{PR}$ onto the direction perpendicular to $\overline{PQ}$ and $\overline{RS}$.
 
Still tho. $A=P-Q$, $B=R-S$, $C=Q-S$. Then $0=\partial_{t_2}(At_1-B t_2+C)^2=-2 B\cdot (At_1-B t_2+C)$. So $B^2 t_2=B\cdot A t_1 +B\cdot C$, and likewise $A\cdot B t_2=A^2 t_1+A\cdot C$. Works in any no. of dimensions! I'm just sayin' ^^
 
That that is the correct way to calculate the distance we saw already another way...but I'm not sure how one is suppsed to see it from the parallelepiped itself
I think that "solution" would have cost me points back in school when we did this because it's not obvious why it works :P
 
3:08 PM
Looks legit
Brb physics lab
 
@Secret Ah. That's an actually helpful graphic :) (although it could be drawn nicer :P)
 
3:25 PM
@0celo7: I've read a bit further, but I get the impression that BBS is singularly useless for learning anything of substance from it. Everything I encounter is either stuff I already know, or incomprehensible at the level of detail given.
 
@ACuriousMind lol, which section pissed you off this time?
I imagine you read the section on BRST cohomology and just tore your hair out
 
@0celo7 Basically the entire chapter 3, but especially the section on "Witten's open string theory" where they define the "string wedge product" $*$ by a non-sensical diagram that's just a bunch of parallel lines and never really bother to tell you what it actually is.
 
Haha fuck that section
 
Also, they keep using "group" and "algebra" somewhat interchangably.
Except when they're stressing the difference
It's really weird.
 
You gonna stop reading then?
You're gonna love when they start talking about SUSY with absolutely no explanation or justification
 
3:46 PM
@0celo7 Yeah, I think I can't read this without getting angry. I'll look for something else.
 
@ACuriousMind your other choices: GSW, Joe, Kiritsis, Zwiebach, Kaku, BLT
 
...or taking the approach I took with gauge theory and just piecing it together from a heap of non-pedagogical papers :D
 
>implying these books have a shred of pedagogy
 
Of those you listed, BLT sounds most like something I would like to read, I think.
@0celo7 Yeah. Perhaps unjustified :P
 
4:03 PM
Sooo...chat session, I guess. Anyone have something particular to discuss?
 
Is anyone willing to help with an experiment to try and answer
2
Q: Pinging a user in a comment

John RennieIf I add a comment, then realise I've forgotten to add the @fred to ping a user I can either: edit my comment and put in the @fred delete the comment and retype it with the @fred Does Fred get pinged in both cases? Specifically, in case (1) if I edit an existing comment and add the @fred does...

 
how many pings you just received?
 
@Secret Wrong way to test that because he's the owner of the post and gets pinged regardless of the @
 
oops
 
Yes. If I find a question or answer you've commented on, add a comment, then edit my comment to ping you we'll see if it works.
I've just added a comment to:
someone's coursework found on google: large.stanford.edu/courses/2012/ph241/tilghman1 on such proposal $$$$ QUOTE "And regarding nuclear waste, you don't want things to break. If the turbine of the bottoming steam cycle, or some other part of the heat exchanging process, were to fail, it would be difficult to repair without getting close to the radioactive waste." $$$$ Just us you won't found anyone near the core of a nuclear power station, you won't want spent fuel waste placed near your home — Secret Aug 18 at 6:11
which I think shouldn't have pinged you.
 
4:11 PM
no ping, now try the @
 
Done! I edited it and added the ping
 
got one ping
 
It works :-)
We need to find something you and ACuriousMind have both commented to so I can try pinging you both in turn.
 
I fear that might not have happened on a post where not one of us is also the owner.
 
yeah ACM tend to add to my questions in comments as far the trend goes
 
4:14 PM
Anyone game for a pretty weird (and hopefully trivially answered) foundation question about quantum chromodynamics?
 
@ACuriousMind OK I've added a comment to:
Your question is unclear. $\vec\nabla\cdot\vec A$ is flux per unit volume. $\int\int\vec A\mathrm{d}\vec S$ is flux. Integrating $\vec\nabla\cdot\vec A$ over a volume gives flux. By the divergence theorem, both expressions for flux are equal. I have no idea what other than that you are asking about. — ACuriousMind 1 hour ago
and you shouldn't have a ping.
 
Correct.
 
OK I've edited it and added the ping
 
@TerryBollinger Ask
@JohnRennie Yes, received it
 
Ok, that's pretty clear. It would be nice to know if I edited it and changed the ping whether the new pingee got a ping. But I need a thread where two people currently present have commented ...
 
4:16 PM
Why three colors? Sure, it's the obvious choice given the need for three-way Pauli exclusion, but that's a heuristic guess, not a proof of need. Can you adequately provide exclusion using instead only two colors and their anti's?
 
It has to be three colours because the gauge group is SU(3)
 
@TerryBollinger There is no such thing as "two colors". The next simpler gauge group is $\mathrm{SU}(2)$, which just gives you another spin-type thing
 
And we know the gauge group is SU(3) from experiment
 
Excellent (and to be honest anticipated) answers, especially experiment. What bothers me is the possibility of subtle information-level equivalences that could be hidden by more elaborate structure (which is why experiment is the best answer).
Look at the tip-balanced fermion cube with two 2D layers of down, anti-up (or vice-versa) quarks. It's interesting just to ask "how much can I do with just that 3D space, and nothing more?" It may be a different physics... yet it's surprisingly rich.
If z is vertical, the two color/anticolor axes would of course just be x and y.
 
I maintain that your cube is just a visualization of the representation theory of SU(3) that for some reason reasonates with you very well. I'm not sure what "different physics" you're seeing there.
 
4:26 PM
The resonance goes remarkably deep. By "different physics" I only mean "probably wrong or incomplete." But it does seem to capture more than anticipated.
There is another figure I just love for its symmetry: The imaginary-units quaternion octahedron, which when aligned within the cube has its own delightful mapping to alternating fermion layers. +1 products clockwise per face, -1 counterclockwise, each pointing to one of the cube/fermion vertices. Create a single consistent edges though all of the edges and the pro and anti layers pop out naturally based on those products.
 
Is this completely meaningless, or is it just me?
0
A: Why does dark energy seem to push things apart?

Helder VelezI will show that he Dark energy is an artifact of the referential used. We measure with atoms, ex: 1 kg is defined as an ensemble of atoms, lets say N, in Paris, such that one atom weights 1/N kg. Similar recursivity with length/time unit. We live at Earth's surface and not knowing that it ro...

 
@JohnRennie Yeah, it doesn't show what it purports to show
 
4:41 PM
Editing seems to be off entirely for me today, so just to fix a word typo:
"There is another figure I just love for its symmetry: The imaginary-units quaternion octahedron, which when aligned within the cube has its own delightful mapping to alternating fermion layers. +1 products clockwise per face, -1 counterclockwise, each pointing to one of the cube/fermion vertices. Create a single self-consistent edge flow pattern for all of the octahedron and the pro and anti layers fermion layers pop out naturally based on those +1 or -1 products."
Later all!
 
0
Q: wrongly marked as duplicate

anna vThis question that was wrongly marked as duplicate by Carl Witthoft, ACuriousMind, Hritik Narayan, Kyle Kanos, CuriousOne 2 hours ago , to this question . The marked one asks "How can the unstable particles of the standard model be considered particles in their own right if they immediately dec...

 
We got good news and bad news. Good news: antibiotics are working. Bad news: got a 96 on my first physics exam because I didn't draw enough coordinate systems.
 
hey hey
@JohnRennie Well dark energy does push things apart :p
With the Raychaudra equation and all
Oh, the answer
Hm
 
@0celo7 96 out of 100?
 
"I will show that he Dark energy is an artifact of the referential used."
It doesn't start well
 
4:52 PM
@Slereah Valdez has a record of disputing dark energy
 
@JohnRennie yeah
 
@0celo7 Swot! :-)
 
Stupid mistakes are stupid
 
Well unless you dispute GR, it is an odd position
 
Congratulations about the test, less so about whatever the antibiotics are for.
 
4:53 PM
You can dispute the origin of dark energy but it's pretty necessary with accelerated expansion
 
@JohnRennie some form of bronchitis + sinus BS
 
@Slereah There have been other proposals like TeVeS, but they make sense and as far as I can see Valdez's post doesn't.
 
It does look a tad cranky
 
user54412
@0celo7 And the start of each new academic year will bring more sickly freshmen carrying all sorts of plagues. Wise upperclassmen avoid freshmen for the first month of school.
 
@ChrisWhite :(
My roommate is heathy
This must be some Tennessee plague that he's immune to
 
5:01 PM
I'm reading about mathematical foundations of quantum measurements: Did you know that for any observable (intended as a projection-valued measure, i.e. the spectral family, but the result is also valid for positive operator-valued measures) there exists at least one quantum measurement process? And that there is a repeatable measurement process only if the observable has discrete spectrum? I always thought there was something unclear about the foundations of quantum measurements...
but now I am rather convinced there is nothing fancy, just plain interaction between to quantum systems (with suitable properties)
 
@0celo7 and @ACuriousMind if you're both still around, will you help with another experiment with pinging?
 
@JohnRennie Currently walking to my research meeting.
 
@0celo7 OK, another time then
 
Sorry, I'll be there 15 mins early
So if you can wait 10
 
@0celo7 I have to dash off now. The experiment can wait :-)
 
5:13 PM
@yuggib What are you reading?
 
@yuggib I did not know the thing about the repeatable measurement. I guess it is related to non-existence of the eigenstates for continuous "eigenvalues"?
 
HERE
DAMN
I missed him :(
 
Also, what Slereah asked. Did you finally get access to that one paper?
 
@ACuriousMind Yes, I did ;-)
 
But which!
 
5:15 PM
I am reading that one...
is Masanao Ozawa
1984
@ACuriousMind It is in some sense related, but not exactly
 
thanks
I will "purchase" it
 
even if you give a weaker notion of repeatability, i.e. that involves just projections, you are nevertheless in need of a discrete observable
so really, observables with continuous spectrum are really not yielding repeatable measurements
 
@ACuriousMind they don't explain SUSY/SUGRA either
 
(i.e. nothing guarantees that a successive measurement would give the same result)
 
I have a feeling that that makes even more of a mess out of usual QM where $x$ and $p$ are handled just like any old operator...
 
5:18 PM
so you'll be lost unless you've acquired some superknowledge that you failed to share with me
 
::sigh::
 
Well I think in general in experiments you don't measure continuous variables, really
You measure position up to a precision
 
@ACuriousMind that's re SUSY/SUGRA I assume
why do these ST books assume we're masters of SUSY/SUGRA
 
To sell MORE BOOKS
 
@Slereah But that's experimental uncertainty, nothing to do with the observable that is being measured, not?
 
5:22 PM
Who knows
I'm no expert on quantum measurement
I am a "Let's work on the wavefunction and then hand it to someone else" kind of fellow
 
has mathematical quantum measurement ever increased GDP
 
have you
 
not yet
 
obe
@Secret I am ranked #1 :]
 
what
 
obe
5:25 PM
Look at the leaderboard on the left.
 
@obe the weird guy in my physics class made these strange noises and hit the table when he got his exam back...he's probably bipolar
don't do that :(
 
obe
Dude that is not bipolar.
 
@obe Coincidence of three-letter names or really you?
 
obe
Bipolar is a long term thing.
 
@0celo7 Have you, uh, looked that word up before using it?
 
5:26 PM
then it's schizo
 
obe
@ACuriousMind Really me, dwarf star x1... wait 5 minutes.
 
@ACuriousMind I took AP psychology and got a 5 :O
 
@0celo7 Another word you should look up before using it :P
 
wtf
literally took psychology and both were on the test
 
obe
He's probably a sore loser... that's all.
 
5:27 PM
he talks to himself
he laughs to himself
 
obe
Aloud?
 
whispering
have I not talked about him before
 
obe
Idk.
 
@obe You got that with a single star in the system? :D
 
obe
@ACuriousMind Right.
 
user54412
5:28 PM
@0celo7 You do know that you can get a 5 on most AP exams by only getting half the questions right?
 
ok, from that above description, he is neither
@ChrisWhite I had the highest grade out of all psych classes at my school
 
obe
And... you don't know what bipolar is.
 
debilitating mood swings?
 
obe
Misdiagnosed a poor child.
 
then what does he have? has to be schizophrenia
 
obe
5:30 PM
@0celo7 No.
 
user54412
people in their manic phase are often anything but debilitated
 
ok, not debilitating
I'm misusing that word
let's review:
he talks to himself, laughs to himself
scratches the table
looks at the back of his laptop during class
 
obe
Bipolar, my kind is only reoccurring depression.
 
gets very angry when people don't want to parter up with him
makes very strange noises from time to time
 
user54412
@obe :(
 
5:32 PM
@obe you don't have manic phases?
 
obe
I do.
 
also he smells, dunno if that's a symptom
shows a general lack of mental...something
 
Kyle might not visit chat anymore, but he still gets into pedantic comment fights :P
2
 
why doesn't he visit chat :(
even on weekends
 
@0celo7 What kind of symptom is that except that class is boring?
 
user54412
5:33 PM
@0celo7 awareness of social surroundings, as in autism for example?
 
@ACuriousMind he turns his laptop around and chews on his fingers while swaying and staring at the laptop
class is not even mandatory
 
obe
Low functioning autism definitely.
 
@ChrisWhite I guess there is no evidence of hallucinations
could be disorganized schizo
 
obe
Give him a DSM-5.
 
@Slereah yes, but the point is that even if you can make that very accurate
still the measurement is not repeatable
 
5:37 PM
@obe they have those on sale at the book store
 
obe
@0celo7 Fill it out for him.
Do share the results.
I think this is really weird.
 
user54412
I once flipped through something like that. I concluded most everyone I went to school with had a recognized mental condition.
 
@obe I agree that it's not bipolar, though his reaction to the test score did show some behavior that I would like to follow up on
 
obe
You should be a psychologist.
 
5:40 PM
for all I know, he's locked himself in his room and is doing something depressive
@obe no?
 
obe
Or a detective?
 
nuclear detective?
 
obe
Nuclear psychological detective engineer astronaut in space.
2
who does physics for a hobby.
We're supposed to be weird?
@ACuriousMind Look at my new score. 1 body only.
 
@ACuriousMind In practice you measure the spectral projection on the interval of values $[x-x_0,x+x_0]$ for position; but that observable (the spectral family) is not discrete, so the measurement is not repeatable
 
@obe You broke that game, apparently ;)
 
obe
5:47 PM
Idk... someone else please defeat me.
 
vzn
@yuggib bells thm proves there is something "nonlocal" in QM. prior to that the view that the uncertainty principle is due to measurement apparatus was tenable, less tenable (some say untenable) after that.
 
@obe yes
I don't see how you're not
 
obe
:(
 
you = plural
ihr
 
vzn
@0celo7 hope you get well soon. are you getting enough sleep? lack of sleep inhibits immune system function & has other misc consequences. something not to be trifled with.
 
obe
5:52 PM
@0celo7 wipes tears
 
@vzn I'm getting more than 7 hours every night
will get 8+ tonight
 
vzn
@0celo7 ok. sometimes extra sleep helps too :)
 
obe
I have 3-5.
 
you should not do that
 
vzn
once had something with similar symptoms to yours yrs ago (a bit scary). was under a lot of stress at the time. took quite a few wks to clear up.
 
5:54 PM
this isn't stress
I had asthma as a kid, my lungs are always vulnerable this time of year
 
vzn
ok. stress can exacerbate vulnerability. didnt you just start university? are you eating well too? this is all personal ofc but there are a bunch of university students on here & hope you guys all take care of yourselves with all the intense edu rush going on.
 
I haven't been sick in ages, but my life is not exactly what you'd call "healthy" :P
So kids, don't listen to my advice!
 
@ACuriousMind I get a lung thing every year
 
obe
I have been badly nourished and rested since I began university.
 
@vzn define eating well
 
obe
5:57 PM
I blame the 3h way there.
 
wtf!
why are you doing that
 
@0celo7 Well, that sucks :/
 
@ACuriousMind other than that, I'm pretty healthy
 
obe
@0celo7 To learn physics duh.
 
are you taking the train
 
vzn
5:58 PM
it is not uncommon for new university students to have "sketchy" eating/ sleeping habits. new/ unfamiliar environment. eating on the run or less time to eat/ sleep. etc... just remember youll learn/ retain better with good food/ sleep.
 
how do you do 6 hours of commuting
the 3 hour round trip to DC was horrible
 
obe
Bus and train... sorry I meant 3.3 hours total.
 
@vzn I always go to bed at 23:30 and wake up at 6:45 or 7:45
 
obe
I wish I didn't have hs though.
 
my sleeping schedule is better than ACM's
 
obe
6:01 PM
ACM has a sleeping schedule?
 
yes. he goes to bed at 4 in the morning
and wakes up god knows when
I'm not enough of a creep to know that
 
Well, that's my off-semester sleep schedule, to be fair :P
When I have to get up early, I might go to bed as early as...2am :D
 
ok, to be fair, my illness really hit me hard when I stayed out till 3 and was less than sober
so alcohol must impair the immune system
 
vzn
younger generation doesnt realize some of this & even older generation (who should know better) doesnt always know/ teach/ live it either... :(
 
how on earth does that game work
 
vzn
6:06 PM
what game?
 
@obe how does this work
Got 490,000!
What am I doing!
 
vzn
wow OBE has it figured out! 33,206,642
 
@obe ???
 
I give up
 
6:20 PM
what's that?
O I think I know what it is
what have you made, does it involve party orbits?
 
Party orbits?
 
http://www.stefanom.org/spc_ns/index.html
the first two panals
 
I'm sure you can make a stabile config and let it run for an hour
at my current rate I will hold the record in like 30 minutes
how the hell did he do that
Aww, it limits you to 1,000 years
 
6:46 PM
let's do this distance between lines problem
 
7:29 PM
how do you do that planet game
 
 
1 hour later…
obe
8:53 PM
@0celo7 Click a spot in space to summon a astronomical object.
 
I figured that part out
 
obe
Figure out the best way to build an orbital system.
I had a lucky click with 3 dwarf stars.
 

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