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12:00 AM
It's not actually required for being a physicist, of course, but various kinds of weirdness seem to be common.
I think part of it is that like hacker culture, physical culture will tolerate oddness if you can produce.
At least, in the decades I've been around. Some of the stories from the early 20th century are not so encouraging.
 
@dmckee Not so encouraging?
 
Much more pressure to conform, and some intolerance of women and people of the wrong skin shade.
 
obe
12:16 AM
@0celo7 What is your disease?
 
@obe No clue, but it might be morphing into bronchitis or pneumonia.
 
obe
D:
Sleep and take soup.
 
12:40 AM
@StanShunpike what causes this discretization? Resonance in rooms/instruments?
What would cause*
 
Magic.
 
1:21 AM
@JohnDuffield Your answer has two references. One is to a book (we don't know if that's mainstream). Show me one paper in a mainstream journal that agrees with you. The second reference is Crowell's answer (which you seem to love to quote), except you misconstrue what he says.
You may not move through a world line, but it is a directed path. The locus of all points you may be found at, and a direction in which time evolution of your frame happens. Crowell doesn't refute this. Crowell only refutes that there's a concrete motion (with a speed and all).
 
0
Q: Streamlining the vote to close homework option page

count_to_10This is a small point, but a lot of my vote to close choices have been about homework questions. Is it possible to have that homework option come up on the first page of the "Why should this question be closed", page, rather than go to another screen to vote? I have no idea of the split betwee...

 
CTCs and chronology protection are mainstream, according to our policy. I can cite plenty of papers right now in mainstream journals.
CTCs may be impossible, but their study is important. Theories in which functional CTCs are allowed generally need improvement. Vanilla general relativity allows CTCs until you take into account vacuum fluctuations, for example.
3
"Time travel is science fiction" is not a constructive way of adding to a discussion about mainstream CTCs.
Your citations seem to be a string of non sequiturs, actually
or straw men
> Some people will tell you that a gravitational field is negative energy, but it isn't true.
No, that's a straw man. The question is, can a gravitational field have negative energy, which is true, in the case of negative curvature
And none of that follows from
> "the energy of the gravitational field shall act gravitatively in the same way as any other kind of energy" here.
Similarly, this
> You won't get anybody doing that I'm afraid. There can be no backward travel through time because there is no forward travel through time, because there is no motion through spacetime.
does not follow from
> See relativist Ben Crowell saying the same in this answer. You move through space over time, and we depict this as your world line.
So that answer is close to non-mainstream.
 
obe
1:49 AM
@0celo7 This week will be difficult.
:(
 
2:10 AM
In ambient light, I can see from ~411 to ~720 nm
In dim lit conditions (e.g. in a dark room) I can see from 407.5 to 768 nm

The reason I can get such precise readings is because my love of colors caused me to peer through a diffractometer or monochromator that filters sodium lamp lines during my second year analytic chemistry class and I roll the wavelength drum (which is precise down to 0.1 nm) left or right until the color fades to darkness

Being able to see slightly redder than 700 does not always mean a good thing, though. For example, ever since I realise I can see output from a 750
 
@obe did you do the exercises
 
obe
2:28 AM
@0celo7 I didn't have time.
I'll do them.
 
@NeuroFuzzy the discreteness is partly a function of the limits of the brain. There is a limit on how fast or slow a note can be or it wont be perceived at all. So naturally it has to be discretized.
 
user54412
3:01 AM
@StanShunpike A word of caution: the lower limit on detectable duration need not be the lower limit on detectable duration difference for typical durations. The former is akin to the smallest representable floating point number, the latter to machine epsilon (i.e. the smallest $\epsilon$ such that $1+\epsilon \neq 1$).
 
3:49 AM
@ChrisWhite hmmm. I would agree those could be very different. Perhaps that is why I find errors in meter so glaringly obvious even when they are small. Would that fit with what you are saying?
 
 
2 hours later…
user54412
6:14 AM
Ok, who upvoted this?
 
user54412
-1
A: Is a quark bomb possible?

William WormsleyI suppose you could easily hit it with a wee wee particle beam to cause a massive fission. Thermonuclear piss bomb.

 
Inquiring minds want to know.
:-)
Perhaps the user has a sock puppet?
 
 
2 hours later…
 
1 hour later…
9:51 AM
ch(D)Td(X)[X]
Topology why do you hate me
 
obe
10:47 AM
snore
 
11:41 AM
I have a question for anyone else awake at 8 on a Monday morning... Which at the moment, just looks like me...
 
Shoot - no guarantee I can answer it. It's 2145 here.
 
Haha, ok
I'm a high school physics teacher. My kids have been struggling with writing lab reports a little. I think they just view it as an assignment they do for me, as opposed to modeling something that professional physicists do. I didn't know if anyone knew of any scholarly publications or journals that might be readable for high school students. I figure if they can read a journal article on their level, they might understand the expectations and purpose better
The content doesn't really matter (as long as it's in the physical sciences)
 
Something in the back of my mind tells me that I've seen a similar question, but I'm not certain it was on physics.stackexchange. One paper I remeber being mentioned was Einstein's paper on the photoelectric effect. how much time you got?
 
With the students?
I can make anything up to probably 45 minutes work
They wouldn't necessarily have to read the whole thing though
an excerpt could suffice
 
I'll have a scratch around and get back to you.
 
11:57 AM
http://journals.aps.org/prl/highschool-access-announcement
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapt/journal/tpt

Not sure if these are what you need
 
that paper i mentioned is about 4-5 pages, very lucidly written.
 
Thanks!
 
Always happy to help a teacher.
 
12:24 PM
@ManishEarth : the book is faithful to history, and is written by a philosophy professor. As for one paper in a mainstream journal See this in Physical Review Letters which says ”outside science fiction, time travel is impossible”.
Also see Michio Kaku. He says time travel ”may have made great fiction, but physicists have always scoffed at the idea of time travel, considering it to be the realm of cranks, mystics, and charlatans” . He also says it’s ”become fair game for theoretical physicists writing in the pages of Physical Review magazine”. Rather tongue in cheek I thought.
Also see this. I don't like people being abusive, especially people who believe there's an evil twin universe where time runs backwards, but you should read it.
 
When happens when you are bored...
 
Have a clinic appointment.
@Slereah Trying to learn index theorems?
 
12:41 PM
maybe
3
Q: How to detect a secret nuclear detonation here on the earth?

Sopheak SengNuclear weapons are probably the most powerful military tools we have. Although it is banned, some countries are trying to gain this capability. My question is how can we know that North Korea and Iran (to name a few) are exploding nuclear weapons if no inspector have ever granted access to any n...

 
@ManishEarth : it isn't close to being non-mainstream at all. Not in the least. Einstein made it clear that gravitational fields have positive energy. My no motion in spacetime absolutely does match Ben Crowell's _objects don't move through spacetime, objects move through space". And you are promoting pseudoscience speculation whilst attempting to discredit bona-fide physics as "non mainstream".
 
I want to answer that there was a neutrino detection based method proposed to do it, but from what I recall, it was mostly sold that way to get government funding :p
"Fund our neutrino detection program, we can detect secret reactors!"
also lol Kaku
is there a good book that is like
TOPOLOGY FOR PHYSICISTS
There is, but is it good!
the reviews seem pretty mixed
 
@Slereah : olders posters will concur that physicists have always scoffed at the idea of time travel, considering it to be the realm of cranks, mystics, and charlatans. Some will also express exasperation at the way such woo is peddled to gullible kids as serious physics.
 
@Slereah [math] for physicists tends to be not really good for actually understanding the math, from what I've heard
 
He is getting a bit tiring
What's a good topology book that you would recommend
Ideally leading up to manifolds and beyond
 
12:48 PM
@Slereah good topology books are mathematical books
 
Probably, yes, but do you have a recommendation
 
Ehh...I didn't learn much from books, remember, so I'm bad at recommending them
 
@ACuriousMind learned everything from the streets
The math streets
 
@Slereah An ear to the ground works wonders ;)
 
For general topology, you should go for Bourbaki: topologie générale
 
12:50 PM
@Sean, the mosh pit paper is available at no charge here: arxiv.org/pdf/1302.1886v1.pdf
 
and espaces vectoriels topologiques
 
Bourbaki is a bit dry
Tho I have it
Plus I can read the original :p
Because la France
 
I am talking about the original ones
 
Well I mean untranslated
 
à la merde la traduction anglaise
:P
with the Bourbakis you have anything you need to know
 
12:52 PM
Probably yeah
But IIRC they're not very good at pedagogy
 
I've been told physicists shouldn't learn their maths from mathematicians, because the mathematicians will send them mad. :-)
 
@Slereah : re can we ban JD, no, not for talking physics.
 
probably it is not so pedagogical
 
Mathematicians are mad. Look at ACM's socks.
 
more physics oriented are the two chapters on the first reed simon book
chap IV and V
 
12:53 PM
@MyOtherHead Yes, knowing actual math can drive you mad when dealing with physicists. That's not a reason not to learn math, though. I think it's kinda important to know when the physicists are just making stuff up and call it a "derivation" or "proof" of something ;)
 
Topology the thing is
I can usually understand the concepts okay
 
but they have theory of distributions in mind
 
But proving a thing is pretty hard
 
Indeed.
 
@Slereah Weell....as long as you have not to use nets or filters everything is ok :-D
 
12:54 PM
http://www.math.umn.edu/~olver/num_/lni.pdf

I found starting from page 21 of this harder to grasp than abstract algebra stuff
Anyone can shed some light on what is happening? It seems there are so many things happening at the same time and I lost track
 
When I did that dreadful math year, when the exam came, I was all like
Blank
 
Atiyah-Singer usually takes a whole book to prove
 
HOW DO I PROVE TOPOLOGY
 
@MyOtherHead Mad maybe, but at least correct.
 
I'd rather be sane and wrong than mad and have mismatched socks.
 
12:56 PM
I'm still a year away before I get to uni and start my physics/engineering studies. @yuggib, True. I didn't realise there were different standards of rigour between various scientists, until I started thinking about it.
 
@0celo7 Will you stop harping about socks already? :D
 
@ACuriousMind It's either socks or having some Czech dude as your spirit animal...your choice.
@MyOtherHead Why did you remove that?
 
IIRC the Axiom of Choice is usually explained with socks
 
reconsidered my digital footprint.
 
It's not like that's embarrassing compared to the average revelation here.
What the hell is the Axiom of Choice?
 
12:59 PM
"The Axiom of Choice is necessary to select a set from an infinite number of pairs of socks, but not an infinite number of pairs of shoes." — Bertrand Russell
 
You people keep talking about it.
 
who knows when several years down the track, something like that can be misconstrued and come to bite you
 
@0celo7 The axiom of choice is Zorn's lemma
 
@yuggib What's that?
 
See the Numberphile channel on youtube
 
1:01 PM
@0celo7 If I give you a partially-ordered set, then it has a maximum if every chain has an upper bound.
 
Zorn's lemma is the well orderin theorem
The well ordering theorem is König's theorem
 
@ACuriousMind What?
 
@0celo7 It's the Teichmuller-Tukey lemma
 
@0celo7 Well, that's what Zorn's lemma states.
 
@yuggib What?
@ACuriousMind ELI5
 
1:03 PM
@0celo7 Do you know what a partial order is?
 
@0celo7 It's Hausdorff's maximal chain condition
 
@ACuriousMind No, should I?
@yuggib You're a troll.
 
@0celo7 :-D
probably...but each one of them is the axiom of choice
 
My 1st impression on numerical methods:
1. Iterations and fixed points are ok I can follow the motivation and just keep on repeating the iteration
2. The matrix algebra I am ok with it, positive definite and least squares minimisation are ok
3. Newton's method, half interval method and euler method are straight forward enough
4. Interpolation and splines, still manageable
5. Runge kutta and finite diference, still ok
6. Linear iteration schemes (The Gauss–Seidel Method, Successive Over–Relaxation), uh, I beg your pardon?
 
@0celo7 Not really. A partial order is some relation $\leq$ that is reflexive ($a\leq a$), transitive ($a\leq b \wedge b \leq c \implies a \leq c$) and whatever $a\leq b \wedge b \leq a \implies a=b$ is called.
E.g. the relation "is subset of" for the power set of a set is a partial order of the power set.
 
1:07 PM
@ACuriousMind : Totality?
oh wait no
Antisymmetry
 
No, totality is that for all $a,b$ you have either $a\leq b$ or $b\leq a$.
@Slereah That's what Wiki calls it...I'm not sure I ever heard that before.
 
who knows
There's always weird math words you never hear
Like how a book I have called a scalar product of tensors "transvection"
Or some Kolmogorov paper calls graph "complexes"
Partial order is just fancy talk for "There's an order but you can't compare all elements", right?
Like in C
 
@Slereah Yes
 
a total order is without the equality in the $\leq$, right?
 
@Slereah It does not seem so fancy talk to me...it is a partial relation (for it does not apply to all elements), and it is an order
 
1:14 PM
@Secret No
"total order" just means that you can compare all elements.
 
Math is the fanciest of talk
 
@ACuriousMind Well order is frightening
 
Yeah, I much prefer chaos.
 
Zorn's lemma sounds pretty reasonable when you read it
But I guess it can fuck up for infinite weird sets
 
like in: provide the well ordering of the reals
 
1:16 PM
If you have negation of choice
 
:D
 
If you have ~C, what kind of set breaks Zorn's lemon
Is it some non-measurable thing
 
@ACuriousMind What?
ELI5!
 
"Zorn's lemon"
 
Can you even have non-measurable sets in ~C
Yes, Zorn's lemon
It is related to the Abelian grape
 
1:18 PM
lol
 
@Slereah not C is not a good assertion
 
You can hire me for more math jokes for birthday parties
 
let's say that with weaker versions of choice (dependable choice)
you can have a theory where all the sets of reals are measurable
 
Is ~C not consistent?
 
(it is called the Solovay model)
 
1:19 PM
IIRC weakened choice leads to sets without cardinalities, no?
 
@Slereah not C means not that a weaker version of C is not possible
 
or is that ~C
 
@0celo7 Okay: A "partial order" means you have a set and a way to compare some elements (i.e. say "$a$ is less than $b$", i.e. $a\leq b$). However, you can't compare all elements, i.e. if given $a$ and $b$ it is not guaranteed that one is less than the other - it might just be undefined.
 
you can define cardinality without choice
but you can't have well-ordering of cardinals
 
@0celo7 Otherwise, the order does everything you are used to from the reals: If $a$ is smaller than $b$ and $b$ is smaller than $a$, then $b$ and $a$ are already the same, and if $a$ is less than $b$ and $b$ is less than $c$, then $a$ is less than $c$.
 
1:21 PM
(Please note the posts after this one will be a stream of questions, because this is the first time since joining the chat I have truly study related questions)
 
@ACuriousMind Why?
 
@0celo7 What do you mean, "why"? It's a definition
 
Why would it be undefined?
 
Because...we don't demand in the definition that it exists.
 
@0celo7 : an order is a relation
 
1:23 PM
Look at the subsets of a set ordered by the relation "is subset of"
 
A relation is defined by like
 
http://i.stack.imgur.com/Zl1Px.png
Ok there's a quadratic I need to minimise, but how are v and u related to data points.
I cannot really follow what's happening here
 
a R b means that <a,b> belongs to a set
 
If the set is $\{1,2\}$, then the relation between $\{1\}$ and $\{2\}$ is undefined.
 
If it's not defined, it does not belong to the set
 
1:24 PM
@ACuriousMind What?
 
Fixed.
 
$2>1$
 
hello
 
I don't see the issue.
 
@0celo7 Are you trolling me or did you not understand what I meant when I said "ordered by relation 'is subset of'"
 
1:25 PM
@Slereah There were several proposed neutrino detectors that could have doubled as part of a non-proliferation sensor network. Some were pretty blue sky: Hano Hano was to be a mobile, submersible, super-K sized device, for FSM's sake.
 
@ACuriousMind I'm not trolling.
I don't understand why this is an issue.
> "ordered by relation 'is subset of'"
No clue what that means.
 
it means the set is partially ordered
according to the subset relation
 
@0celo7 Okay. We have the set $\{a,b,c\}$ and we define the partial order $\subset$ on its powerset, that is, $\{a\}\subset\{a,b\}$ now means "$\{a\}$ is less than $\{a,b\}$.
 
i.e. A subset B
B subset C
is the ordering
 
@ACuriousMind What?
I'm not trolling, what on Earth are you talking about?
 
1:27 PM
mb you should use a simpler example
Like
 
@0celo7 To cut it short, learn some basic set theory ;-P
 
Hmmm...perhaps the order on the powerset wasn't the best place to start
Someone have a better example?
 
@yuggib are you good at numerical analysis, cause I am kinda stuck?
 
"A familiar real-life example of a partially ordered set is a collection of people ordered by genealogical descendancy. Some pairs of people bear the descendant-ancestor relationship, but other pairs bear no such relationship."
 
@0celo7 Let $\{a\}$ be a set, consisting of one element $a$. Which are its subsets?
 
1:28 PM
Parentness might be one?
 
lol real life example
that tickled me
 
everyone has a parent, but not every pair of persons are related by that
 
@Secret Sorry pal, numerical analysis is not at all my field...
 
Well, some family trees might be circles :P
 
Those exist too
 
1:30 PM
@ACuriousMind @Slereah @FenderLesPaul @dmckee @MyOtherHead @0celo7

Anyone here good at numerical analysis that can help me?
 
Good would be stretching it. I've done a little.
 
@Secret Prime example: Solving Euler-Lagrange equations means extremizing the action.
 
We have several active users who have done much more.
 
@yuggib No clue.
 
Sorry, I've got a very basic, pre-uni understanding of Numerical Analysis, but I'l have а crack at it. Got some texts here.
 
1:33 PM
@0celo7 Its subsets are the empty set $\emptyset$, and the set itself $\{a\}$. So the power set of this set is the set that contains all its subsets: $\{\emptyset,\{a\}\}$.
 
@yuggib Ok, I did know that.
 
@Secret yeah sorry dude idk how much use I'd be there
 
@Secret For a deep question you might ask at Computational Science.
 
as far as chat users go you could try asking @ChrisWhite when he gets on
 
@Secret This has nothing to do wiht "numerical analysis". No one has said anything about "data points". You just have your "candidate solution" $u$, and $v$ is a "penalty term" (or "strain") that you associate with $u$. I'm not sure what your question is.
 
1:35 PM
Now, a set $s$ is included in a set $S$, in symbols $s\subset S$, if each element of $s$ is an element of $S$.
 
Ok, that makes sense.
@FenderLesPaul RIP @KyleKanos
 
@KyleKanos come back kail
pls
I miss you
 
@Acuriousmind

http://www.math.umn.edu/~olver/num.html

Sorry I thought they are going to talk abotu data points given that in previous chapters they are talking about interpolation

The full story is I need to learn numerical analysis from scratch because one of my computation in honours need that bacground and I dont have that

I am currently on my last chapter but a lot of things are kinda confusing

@others I'll see what I can find
 
Now let's complicate and start with $\{a,b\}$. Its powerset is $\{\emptyset,\{a\},\{b\},\{a,b\}\}$.
 
@Acuriousmind I have been spending 3 weeks on this self study and I am seriously worry about it hindering my progress in the honours sub goals
 
1:38 PM
@yuggib Yes.
I know all of this.
 
@Secret They are just setting up the "stage" for the finite element method, which requires first setting up solving boundary problems in this functional analytic way (i.e. as minimizing a functional on a suitable function space $U$).
Then the f.e.m. is quite simply explained (as they do in the following) by restricting to a finite-dimensional subspace of the function space.
 
@Secret, sorry, can't help you.
 
And the $\subset$ relation applied to the powerset (that we call $2^{\{a,b\}}$) yields: $\{a\}\subset\{a,b\}$, $\{a\}\subset 2^{\{a,b\}}$, but neither $\{a\}\subset \{b\}$ nor $\{b\}\subset \{a\}$. So in the powerset the subset relation is just a partial order
because given two arbitrary elements of the powerset, you cannot always say that one is subset of the other
That is what @ACuriousMind was saying to you before
 
The relations~
 
Whoa why $2^{\{a,b\}}$
 
1:42 PM
@0celo7 Standard notation for a powerset
 
real men use $\mathcal{P}$
 
because the set of all functions from $X$ to $Y$ is denoted by $Y^X$. And the powerset is set isomorphic to the set of all functions from the set to $\{0,1\}=2$
 
What?
How is a set of two elements equal to $2$?
:/
This is too hard
 
The set with two elements is isomorphic to the set $\{\emptyset,\{\emptyset\}\}$
 
o.o
what is that
 
1:45 PM
and that is the correct definition of the natural number $2$
 
help me
what kind of math do I need to be prepared for this
 
@0celo7 : That's the von Newmann definition of the integers
 
is this category theory or something
 
Wait, is it von Neumann or the other one
 
this is too complicated
 
1:46 PM
0 is the empty set
 
@Slereah It is the usual definition of natural numbers really
 
and n + 1 = {n, 0}
 
probably much older than von Neumann
at least Cantor
 
@yuggib : Well there is more than one
There's also the one that is like
 
but in fact is just Peano arithmetic
 
1:46 PM
wtf the natural numbers are just an assignment from my fingers into the numbers
 
within set theory
 
0 = {}, 1 = {{}}, 2 = {{{}}}
wait, that one is actually von Neumann
 
@0celo7 As I said before, this is just basic set theory
 
@yuggib doubtful, I've never needed it
this is too abstract for me
 
@0celo7 That does not mean it is just set theory :P
 
1:49 PM
@yuggib set theory = {...} is a set of things ...
everything else is ridiculously complicated category theory
this is too advanced for me
 
@0celo7 Nah...you simply do not know it
 
It's not overly complicated
Basically it's like
 
@Slereah it is
 
Set theory wants to define everything via sets
 
this makes no sense
 
1:50 PM
So you need to find a representation of numbers using only sets
 
no, I represent numbers using my fingers
 
Integers are best defined by 0 and the successor operator
 
nothing wrong with that
it's served engineers well for the past 300 years
 
So you define a set theoretic representation of both
0 is the empty set
s(n) is some set operation
Usually s(n) = {n, 0}
Or s(n) = {n}, for von Neumann integers
that way you can use set theory theorems directly on integers
 
too complicated
 
1:53 PM
@Slereah usually $s(n)=\{\{n\},n\}$
 
Oh right
 
why on Earth does this matter
 
Been a while I forget a bit
 
@0celo7 Do you like the topological theorems that are applied in GR to do stuff?
Do you think they matter?
 
@yuggib yes, but I don't know how to prove all of them
 
1:56 PM
@0celo7 To prove them, you need a solid theory of sets, for a topology is a collection of sets
the "solid theory of sets" is usually assumed to be the so-called ZFC set theory
and these theorems are theorems of ZFC, i.e. proved within ZFC
 
Although
To be fair
You don't need to construct the integers from set theory
I think it works fine if you assume integers to be ur-elements, too
But math people like to have minimal rules
 
@Slereah It's simply easier to have an universe that is at the same time the model of more than one theory. The usual model of ZFC is at the same time a model of Peano arithmetic, and many many other stuff
 

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