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2:00 PM
I could get another one of Steiner
 
@0celo7 No - I can see deleted stuff if given the link, but I can't search for it
 
Gotta go guys, bye!
 
what if I imitated ACM
bye
 
later pal
 
that might force me to play all of these obscure RPGs
 
obe
2:02 PM
this is supposed to be early? fml.
 
Have a good day/night/whatever, @Danu.
 
early?
you Canadians are strange
@ACuriousMind I can definitely see how Lang has never been to a game and is not interested in going
 
obe
right i supposedly woke up early.
 
although I wonder how different it is from a big soccer game
10 is not early by a long stretch
 
obe
I have to wake up at 5am for qft.
 
2:07 PM
haha
 
obe
You're always awake at that time though.
 
no?
 
obe
7 then?
 
I wake up at 6:45 or 7:45
 
obe
I see my bad.
well time to drown in qm.
later.
 
2:09 PM
gl
@ACuriousMind avatar suggestions pliz
 
2:24 PM
0
Q: Phase diagram of gauge + matter theories

symanzik138I am looking for some notes/reviews on confinement and Higgs phases suitable for Fermionic/Bosonic matter coupled to Abelian ($Z_2$ or $U(1)$ etc) gauge fields. The purpose is to understand issues related to strongly interacting spin systems in 1,2,3 spatial dimensions, associated phase transiti...

@ACuriousMind There are $\mathbb{Z}_2$ gauge theories?
What do those look like?
 
@0celo7 Uhhh...perhaps Revolver Ocelot? :D
@0celo7 No idea, these "discrete gauge theories" are some condensed matter stuff I haven't gotten into.
 
@ACuriousMind that's never even occurred to me oO
 
@Danu ??? Deleted comments are not visible to 10k users, only to mods.
 
hah 52 close reviews
oh boy -- "speculative science question" is in the title
do you know the solution?
 
2:41 PM
@0celo7 Imo, $\tau$ is about the conformal structure of the torus, not about any complex structure on it.
I.e. I don't understand what the question is asking
 
I'm pretty sure $\tau$ is called complex structure
maybe that's a coincidence and it's called that because it's a complex number
 
No, it's called the complex modulus, I think
And there it's called that because it's a modulus (i.e. a number specifying some part of the geometry), and because it's a complex number
 
ok I'm retarded, it's called the modular parameter
and the reason why I'm retarded is
Jun 11 at 21:23, by 0celo7
$\tau$ is the modular parameter of the torus.
although I swear some book somewhere calls it the complex structure
BLT says complex structure for $\tau$
 
guys, I need some opinions. I want to learn something about blackhole, but I don't get the enough time.
do I need a strong background of special relativity to start general relativity?
I will probably stick to read "exploring black hole" by wheeler and taylor
* I know freshman level of special relativity to a fair level.
 
depends what GR book you use
something like Straumann will expect you have have a grasp of the tensor formulation of SR and EM
something like Carroll won't expect you to know any relativity
 
2:54 PM
then probably wheeler and taylor's GR is okay, it is easier than Carroll's.
thanks. Ocelo
 
obe
I realized I'm done for this. Everything I read past chapter 15 I do not follow for some reason.
sigh...
;(
 
QFT?
 
why don't you follow it
what chapters are those
 
obe
Perturbation theory.
 
oh yeah, that one is kinda tough
do you understand angular momentum at least
 
obe
2:59 PM
I would say no, I need to re-read the chapter on angular momentum, addition of, and spin.
Is it better if I do not continue, and review what I've learned so far?
@0celo7
 
probably
 
usually
 
hopefully this experience has humbled you a bit
 
obe
It definitely has.
 
I recall you dismissing Shankar as "not graduate level" or something
 
obe
3:01 PM
Don't remind me.
I lost to him.
 
Slow down and think more about the meaning of what you are reading...
 
obe
Is that like... interpretations?
 
oh god no
 
@obe Yes, your own.
 
when you mention interpretations, ACM gets ready to strike
 
3:07 PM
Be sure to read with a pencil and paper: Do calculations, draw sketches, and take notes.
 
obe
Implicate order.
 
In that order :-)
 
I'd say angular momentum is important
just because the idea of constructing representations of the rotation group will come in handy when you construct representations of the Lorentz group
have you reviewed relativity at all
 
obe
I only finished until ch3.
 
special
are you familiar with the concept of the mass shell
tensor electrodynamics
 
obe
3:16 PM
I know tensor electrodynamics.
The other, I didn't read about it.
What is it?
 
do you know $p^2=-m^2$
 
obe
I know it.
 
maybe JD can help you
 
obe
lol.
 
do you know that or not
 
obe
3:19 PM
Yes.
 
ok that's called the mass shell condition
because if you expand the scalar product, you get a hyperbolic equation
that's the "shell" that momentum and energy have allowed values on
 
obe
I see.
 
god damn every time I talk about special relativity I want to read more of SRGF...such a good book
pages and pages of examples....it's glorious
 
@ACuriousMind Well, my Ministry of Darkness is expanding :)
 
holy crap the undertaker is 50
 
3:23 PM
@0celo7 : and maybe not.
 
@JohnDuffield the boy needs help with rotation in quantum mechanics
 
obe
You're the same age as me... lol
 
hush boy
how the hell can my roommate be texting and 10 minutes later be snoring
it's 11:30 ffs
 
obe
The weather is so nice outside, it's like 50F.
and windy with rain.
 
canadians use F?
I thought canadians were communists
 
obe
3:27 PM
I am letting you know in your F.
 
@obe : what do you want to know? If you're not sure, read about the Einstein-de Haas effect and about Goudsmit and the discovery of electron spin: "But don't you see what this implies? It means that there is a fourth degree of freedom for the electron. It means that the electron has a spin, that it rotates".
 
obe
@JohnDuffield Ok will do when I have time.
 
@obe : good stuff. meanwhile don't think spin is something magical. Take a look at an old version of the Wikipedia Stern–Gerlach article. It contains a non-sequitur that says the electron can't be rotating like a planet, so it can't be rotating at all. That's wrong. Of course it isn't rotating like a planet, it's a spin ½ particle. Duh!
 
@JohnDuffield by that they mean there is no actual rotation going on
hence why the word "spin" is actually quite the poor word for the phenomenon
@obe you can skip the part on tensor operators
I've never used them
 
obe
What else can I skip?
 
3:35 PM
dinner
 
but never breakfast :P
 
lol I didn't get breakfast
I feel like shit
 
QED
 
sickness + screaming for 4 hours straight + being screamed at by 100,000 people = bleh
 
@0celo7 : Follow my links, read the Goudsmit article. There is an actual rotation going on. That's why the electron has a magnetic moment. The Einstein-de Haas effect "demonstrates that spin angular momentum is indeed of the same nature as the angular momentum of rotating bodies as conceived in classical mechanics". The word spin is correct.
 
3:38 PM
@Huy it's...different. I have to hold the mouse differently than I did my old one and I've been killed in BF4 because I didn't have my thumb in the proper place
 
@0celo7 Have you been to any NFL games?
 
no
I might go to a Bengals game with my brother
 
Wow! double overtime is quite an "introduction."
 
0
Q: Why are Precognitive and Beta badges awarded?

AniketCan someone tell me the significance of these badges: Precognitive : Followed the Area 51 proposal for this site before it entered the commitment phase Beta : Voted 10 times, added 3 posts score > 0, and visited the site on 3 separate days during the private beta My questions: What...

 
@0celo7 we play them today >8(
 
3:43 PM
I know
4
Q: Why can't I just think the spin as rotating?

user28936I'm going mad about the problem. I really don't understand why do electron have 1/2 spin number, why they are not actually spinning. I can accept that the electrons have their own magnetic field, which is certain, but why do they have $\hbar\sqrt3/2$ of angular momentum, and I don't know what t...

please add an answer
@dmckee ah, a particle fellow
 
That sounds ominous.
 
@dmckee in one sentence, do electrons actually spin and why/why not
 
Electrons do not spin.
 
+1 for my sanity
why can't spin be interpreted as actual rotation
 
@0celo7 We've been over this before with JD, why do you keep engaging him in chat?
 
3:47 PM
We know because their angular momentum has a value that is forbidden to $\mathbf{r} \times \mathbf{p}$
 
What is The Evidence?
:P
 
@ACuriousMind I did not know about that one
 
Turning extended matter takes on integer values of angular momentum (times $\hbar$, of course).
 
@0celo7 That's not even the only one, there's half a dozen posts of that type :P
 
Electron's have intrinsic angular momentum of 1/2.
Case closed.
 
3:48 PM
suppose electrons had spin 1
suppose electrons are photons
do photons spin
 
@dmckee : spin is real. And I quote: "But don't you see what this implies? It means that there is a fourth degree of freedom for the electron. It means that the electron has a spin, that it rotates".
 
(this is rhetorical, but I would like an answer to confirm what I think is true)
 
@0celo7 Then you couldn't tell by that basic argument.
 
> Meanwhile think electrons and positrons. If you took away the spin, all you're left with is light.
uh, what does that even mean
 
...and charge and mass.
 
3:51 PM
@JohnDuffield
light has spin 1
 
The statement is nonsense.
 
@0celo7 IF you'd like an answer, it isn't rhetorical!
 
a spin 0 electron is nothing like a photon
@ACuriousMind sure
 
and lepton number for that matter.
 
what's the answer, anyhow?
 
3:51 PM
The evidence says electron spin is real. The Einstein-de Haas effect is real. So is electron magnetic moment. And electrons and positrons don't move the way they do for fun.
 
:D
 
I've heard stuff like the particle would have to rotate faster than $c$
or something like that
 
@0celo7 : it's a non sequitur.
 
Thee evidence
 
@JohnDuffield what is?
 
3:53 PM
 
@JohnDuffield For the nth time: the Einstein-de Haas effect says that spin is angular momentum (which no one has argued about for more than 50 years). It doesn't say that is is $\mathbf{r} \times \mathbf{p}$.
 
@Danu I think you are right, it is standard and obvious, and also contrary to what I think, attractors and repellers can demonstrate more complex behaviour than my surface analogy can handle

*back to the drawing board*
 
Don't argue with
2 mins ago, by Rigor
Thee evidence
 
@0celo7 : that the electron can't be spinning like a planet so it can't be spinning at all. See the old Stern-Gerlach article: "Electrons are spin-1⁄2 particles. These have only two possible spin angular momentum values measured along any axis, +ħ/2 or −ħ/2. If this value arises as a result of the particles rotating the way a planet rotates
then the individual particles would have to be spinning impossibly fast. Even if the electron radius were as large as 2.8 fm (the classical electron radius), its surface would have to be rotating at 2.3×10^11 m/s. The speed of rotation at the surface would be in excess of the speed of light, 2.998×10^8 m/s, and is thus impossible.[2] Instead, the spin angular momentum is a purely quantum mechanical phenomenon."
 
what other types of spinning are there
 
3:57 PM
@dmckee ``The concept of Thee evidence is rich in interpretations and levels of abstraction.'' :D
 
@0celo7 There are no other types of spinning, but there is intrinsic angular momentum. What we call spin.
 
@dmckee exactly
I'm not sure what the issue is, JD
 
> It's a 511keV electromagnetic wave in a Dirac's belt path.
Source???
@dmckee I knew exactly what that would be, I saw it 15 minutes ago in my googling efforts :D
 
@0celo: spin ½ rotation. See the Dirac spinor article on Wikipedia. Note the reference to bispinor. Think of a biaxial rotation. Where the rotates goes round a major axis AND round a minor axis. Think of the AND as a multiplier. Hence round and round.
 
4:02 PM
Like a merry-go-round?
 
@JohnDuffield There is no such thing as a "spin 1/2 rotation". Objects behaving as spin-1/2 objects are not transforming in a proper representation of the rotation group, and the spaces on which half-integer spins act are necessarily complex, not real.
 
@Rigor. Yeah, like a merry-go-round, provided you tip it up on its edge whilst it's still rotating, then spin it like a coin.
 
@JohnDuffield please use equations
 
@0celo7 The earlier "Moment of Clarity" cartoon is funny, too. If not so relevant.
 
@JohnDuffield I want off this ride pal.
 
4:04 PM
 
@JohnDuffield And what is "bispinor" supposed to have to do with it? The bispinor is merely two Weyl spinors (or the ordinary Dirac spinor).
 
@0celo7 : Planck length is l=√(ћG/c³). Replace √(ћG) with 4πn where n is a suitable value. Now set n to 1, and work out 4πn/√(c³).
 
...wat
 
1 hour ago, by 0celo7
when you mention interpretations, ACM gets ready to strike
 
4:06 PM
@JohnDuffield please explain that more carefully
what does the planck length have to do with this
 
@ACuriousMind : yes there is such a thing as spin half rotation, google it.
 
@JohnDuffield Sigh...yes, it is called that, but it is not an actual rotation in any space.
 
@ACuriousMind
 
@0celo7 I know them all, you needn't post them :P
Also, posting the picture is kinda pointless because they're too small to read without clicking, anyway
 
@0celo7 : I'll explain it once you've got your calculator out and worked out the value. You know that if you see a 4π it's something to do with a sphere, don't you? And you've heard of spherical harmonics, haven't you?
 
4:09 PM
oh, <1800p newbs
also, you guys don't use hoverzoom?
 
@ACuriousMind : yes, it is an actual rotation. The electron and the positron don't move the way that they do in a magnetic field for fun. Or because of the Lorentz force. They do so because they're "spinors", with the opposite chirality.
 
@JohnDuffield [citation needed]
Alternatively, show me the derivation of the trajectory starting from them being spinors.
(You can't, because the trajectory is fully classical and hence indeed just a consequence of the Lorentz force and them being oppositely charged)
 
I want to meet JD in real life
@JohnDuffield what is special about $4\pi/c^{3/2}$?
 
why?
 
human interest
this is the second time I've been through AG
 
4:22 PM
@0celo7 Then Lebniz will gain full credit for his contribution in calculus
 
who was more rigorous anyway
 
@ACuriousMind : the Lorentz force is just an expression that describes how they move helically when you chuck 'em through a solenoid. To understand why they move helically, you have to appreciate that spin is real. It isn't something that surpasseth all human understanding.
@0celo7 : get you calculator out. You'll see what's so special about it.
 
@JohnDuffield You are claiming the Lorentz force results from them having spin? Show it
 
betcha he won't
 
Go ahead and derive the expression for the helical movement starting from all your statements about what electrons are.
 
4:27 PM
betcha he won't
see, that's for mathematicians
he deals in evidence, not cargo cult popsci equations
 
Thee Evidence
 
@Rigor What's your deal with bolding the ee?
 
@ACuriousMind : yes, the Lorentz force is because they have spin. There is no magical mysterious action-at-a-distance force doing it. The electron follows a curved path because spin is a real rotation. As for me showing it, have a look at this curl article.
 
hehe
heehee
you should look for employment on a political team
 
@JohnDuffield (4 * 3.14) / ((3 * (10^8))^(3 / 2)) = 2.4171731e-12
 
4:30 PM
@JohnDuffield Uhh...that's about how a football behaves in air.
 
Curl is also called rot, which is short for rotor.
 
Footballs are also not observed to obey the Lorentz force
 
@Danu I've never seen that 'projecting from a complex to a holomorphic tangent space' thing, looks like witchcraft to me but I'd like to find out what's going on here, what is course/subject/best-reference-mentioned-in-your-notes?
 
omg footballs spin
omg bootballs are electrons
 
4:31 PM
@Rigor : good man, but try again with more precision.
 
omg electron = 512keV football in a dirac belt configuration
I figured it out!
 
Here's a dumb question: In baby electromagnetism, why does one discuss capacitors in series and parallel when discussing electrostatics (no current moving), only after this then discussing electrokinematics and circuits in series and parallel?
 
@JohnDuffield
 
@bolbteppa What treatment does that?
 
@bolbteppa We didn't do that, I think
 
4:33 PM
The ones I;ve seen lately certainly don't.
 
Books like Halliday and Resnick, Young-and-Freedman,
 
my dad used HR
back in the 60s
 
So chapter 25 of H&R do capacitors in series and parallel, then 26 is on current/resistance and 27 on circuits
 
I used H&R's algebra based text in High School. In the late 1980s. Hated it. And from what I've seen lately they haven't gotten any better.
 
@JohnDuffield 2.420910921244487426495475168827028965483405976848288993223860201454738962999497‌​50275316140136042588030023556918697... × 10^-12
 
4:35 PM
@ACuriousMind : no, footballs don't obey the Lorentz force, but they take a curved path when you put some "side" on the ball. And if you've ever actually played football, you know that the path curves left or right depending on whether you put the side on the ball with your right foot or your left foot. So you're halfway there to understanding the electron and positron motion.
 
Any way, there is no one order for doing topics in an intro text and not all of them do it that way.
 
It's the calculus-based version of HRW 10'th edition
 
@Rigor just see my picture above
 
So ask HR&W or Y&F.
 
@JohnDuffield here it is
 
4:36 PM
It makes more sense to view capacitors in series and parallel as part of a discussion of circuits, where current is actually flowing, right?
 
ACM has never played football, he's a german
Germans don't play many sports
 
@Rigor : good man. Now where have you seen a number like that before?
 
That said, there can be pedagogical reasons for doing treatments "backward" at times.
 
As in, the probably discuss it earlier just because they are already discussing capacitors, even though no current yet flows?
 
@JohnDuffield NOT EVEN THE SAME UNITS
 
4:37 PM
@JohnDuffield yes
 
@0celo7 : good boy. Oops, time for my glass of wine before my roast dinner. It's roast chicken today. We had lamb on Wednesday. We'll have pork this Wednesday.
@0celo7 : the n preserved the dimensionality.
 
wtf are you on about
@ACuriousMind please explain what he's talking about
 
obe
@0celo7 The lecture notes have been updated.
 
smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3738 (meh... not one boxed.) Can we end SMBC discrimination?
2
 
damn, I need to get out of this room
 
4:39 PM
@JohnDuffield since you seem to know about spin can you tell me how spin somehow seems to relate to the fact that a rotation can be expressed as a combination of reflections?
 
@Rigor : there's a bit of a minding energy adjustment related tot eh g-factor. Now work out √c / 3π. Don't worry about the units.
@bolbteppa : it isn't just a mathematical operation, it's a real thing.
 
@dmckee who comes up with the crap
JD leaves when the going gets tough
 
@JohnDuffield what do you mean by a rotation is a rotation?
 
@JohnDuffield But I do worry about the units, for otherwise it is called pure math Sir?
 
actually, I think I understand what popsci means
popsci = science that the overwhelming majority of the scientific community agrees on
 
obe
4:42 PM
THERE ARE 6 PROBLEM SETS.
FML.
 
I ain't gonna help you
I have my own problem sets
 
obe
I think I got this though.
I will probably have questions.
 
@Rigor : just work out the answer.
 
beg for Bajoran's mercy
he might become your tutor
for the mere price of $20 deposited into Revolver 0celo7's Steam Wallet
 
@JohnDuffield what do you mean by saying 'a rotation is a rotation, it isn't a mathematical operation it's a real thing'? Especially as some way to show a rotation can not be decomposed into the composition of reflections... Even a Lorentz transformation is a rotation, which is not intuitive, so I don't get what you're saying, seems like some gut feeling preaching tbh
 
obe
4:43 PM
Do I need a tutor?
 
what do you think we are
 
obe
Friends?
 
we need to keep the stack exchange servers running
this requires money for video games
 
@ACuriousMind its a biblical reference, master :P
 
Of particular interest to John is of course $\frac{1}{30^{\pi^e}}$.
 
4:45 PM
welcome @Danu
 
sometimes*
 
Hey bolb
 
JD is forcing me to calculate :'( @Danu
 
The notes are from diffgeo, taught by the illustrious prof. Leeb
 
7 mins ago, by John Duffield
@Rigor : there's a bit of a minding energy adjustment related tot eh g-factor. Now work out √c / 3π. Don't worry about the units.
 
4:47 PM
JD is making himself the laughing stock of everyone present. It's easier to just shut up, he'll get bored eventually.
 
The first one, yes. It's not a lot like most references though. Leeb is rather unique
I also took and have notes to the second, yes
That course was purely Chern-Weil theory though
It was great
 
He gives new meaning to the maxim: Shut up and calculate.
 
Or rather it's antithesis: Blabber on forever without equations.
Its*
Can't edit on phone :(
 
. . . Monty Python's Flying Circus!
 
4:54 PM
@0celo7 How am I supposed to know? I can understand 12262 better than this.
 
phew he's gone
 

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