The Awkward Silence

apaul

16:00

Fair enough, editing again.

apaul

16:14

Gotta love this place sometimes...

scohe001

Only sometimes? :)

apaul

Sarcasm

scohe001

Ahh I guess there's no good way to show a sarcastic smiley over a wholesome one

apaul

@scohe001 Nah, I was saying that I was being sarcastic. This place is... "not awesome" sometimes.

Like when people feel the need to upvote comments that were already answered with comments and edits to the question... for reasons...

scohe001

Mmm I figured. I was trying to imply that there seems to always some storm brewing somewhere on the site. Just follow the controversial HNQ...I don't feel likes it's as "sometimes" as you make it out to be

Just flagged all of those NLN before you sent that too^

apaul

16:26

Nah, it's usually a dumpster fire, I was trying to be gentle.

"Controversial" is a "not awesome" term for these.

scohe001

Haha that may be the reality, but our community and mods keep it from looking that bad to the average user at least (I know that I had no idea stuff like this was happening before I started squatting in here and the closet)

apaul

Ya, when you spend enough time around here you get a very different sense of the username.

*userbase

Stupid autocorrect.

Mithrandir

Apr 22 at 16:46, by Mithrandir

Look. There's a problem. We haven't fixed all the problems. But we're working on fixing them. Perhaps not as quickly as you'd like or in exactly the same way as you'd prefer. But please respect the fact that there are people trying, all in their own way, to fix it. But being unconstructive is not going to help your case.

2

SQB

@Mithrandir the original should be pinned.

apaul

My bad, I'll keep my complaints to myself. Wouldn't want to rock the boat or make anyone uncomfortable.

SQB

16:36

@Anoplexian which one?

@apaul no, complaining is good, if something needs to be fixed.

I didn't mean my comment to @Mithrandir add something against you.

Mithrandir

@apaul Just... remember that you're actually not the only one fighting the fight, just other people have different methods. I prefer silent removal and then having the mods message. That is, IMO, the way that best fits into the SE processes.

There are others of us in the LGBTQ+ community here also, being affected in our way... and responding to it in our own ways.

Anoplexian

@SQB The newest taped recording scandal.

Mithrandir

Just please... sometimes consider that direct confrontation doesn't exactly fit into the SE model?

apaul

@Mithrandir Ya, I know. May want to read that whole conversation before getting on my case.

Mithrandir

I've read a whole lot of things lately, including thousands of comments. I see a lot of the bigotry, and it stinks, and we're working on mitigating it.

apaul

16:44

@Mithrandir That's part of my angst with the SE model. Quietly deleting has a funny way of not solving much. The person posting crappy things is often completely unaware that their crap was removed, so they continue to post crap.

Hard to shake the feeling that if enough people were more directly confrontational about it, it would send the message that the crap isn't welcome.

Mithrandir

(back in 20

Mithrandir

17:04

@apaul If someone is persistently posting crappy stuff then it'd time for a custom flag, which will often lead to a mod message. Probably not worth it for a once-off (although it can be); more than that a mod message can be given and then escalation can start. Starting that chain is more productive, IMO, than engaging with them in the comments and giving a bad impression yourself.

You're like the highest-rep user - we need you to set be setting a good example for how other people should behave.

apaul

@Mithrandir I am, just not the good example that you'd like ;)

Being a decent human should come before being a good SE user. In cases where it feels like I'm forced to choose between the two, I'll choose decent human, even if that means bending or breaking the rules.

Mithrandir

I don't think that escalating an issue to someone with larger hammers is not being a good human being.

apaul

May make me a bad SE user, but I never asked to be a role model... At least not that kind of role model.

user15026

If you're choosing to be a "bad SE user", then understand that that is going to come with a certain set of...idk, consequences like this, I suppose.

apaul

@Mithrandir Ya, flagging I important too.

But asking people to bite their tongues in some situations, is asking for an awful lot.

Mithrandir

17:14

I bite my tongue all the time (sometimes literally). There are a heck of a lot of things I want to say at times that I can't. Yes, it's difficult, but not impossble.

Imus

What if you consider them not as bigots but as trolls instead apaul? They're only posting bigotry posts to get attention. The only true way to handle trolls is to NOT FEED THEM!!! as repeated everywhere on the interwebs. If you look at it like that mith's way of handling them is far more effective. Pushing back against them is what they want, having their messages silently removed (preferably as soon as possible) works far better

apaul

Didn't say it was impossible. Just saying that perhaps we shouldn't.

user15026

@Imus "Don't feed the trolls" is nice in theory, but it also means a lot of emotional labour from those of us who are getting trolled to "just let it go" and "ignore them" while ignoring the very real psychological harm they can commit

ElizB

I agree that it is difficult, and when I am encountered with what people say I can't help saying something in the least confrontational way I can. For example, someone asked me if my new neice was "fully sensed" as in, not deaf;.... that set me off. I went on to explain that I am deaf, deaf people have their struggles but labeling someone and assuming stuff about their struggles because of their label is just not right IMO.

user15026

{For reference, this is a very excellent article about why the "don't feed the trolls" line is...sometimes very bad advice: theverge.com/2018/7/12/17561768/…)

apaul

17:18

@Imus See that could work if we didn't let situations go for months before something more than silently removing content was done.

Imus

@apaul I truly am sorry that you have to deal with this and I DO acknowledge that it must be really hard on you to keep going through with this kind of abuse. I'm only pointing out that pushing back can actually make things harder for you. The more you push back, the more they comment and troll you for doing it, the more work the mods have to keep things in check ... negative spiral right there

apaul

Also, a great many bigots aren't strictly trolls. They participate as normal users until certain folks want to be treated equally, or talk about a situation that impacts people like themselves, then all of the sudden the dumpster fire kicks off.

ElizB

There are different situations that require finesse in my opinion, to make the person (troll) power down- and I agree with @Imus - not feeding them powers them down, and I also agree with @ash about the psychological harm. I was venting to every other person, my sister, my husband, until I felt okay enough.

user15026

@apaul Yeah, bigotry and trolling are very different things that shouldn't be lumped together, and "don't feed the trolls" is not really applicable to open bigotry in the same way

user15026

Trolling is more "I am saying things to intentionally provoke a reaction", bigotry is more "I hate you because of an inherent characteristic"

ElizB

17:23

I've dealt with behavior like this from my dad... not giving him ammunition caused him to power down and shut up sooner rather than later.

user15026

It's not an easy thing to sort out.

ElizB

@Ash Bigotry could become trolling if the argument becomes too heated?

Imus

@Ash Correct and not my intention to claim otherwise. My intention is to treat them the same way by not giving them ammunition as ElizB worded it.

user15026

@ElizB Theoretically, but I think people are often too quick to just say "ignore it and it will go away"

Mithrandir

I certainly don't want people to ignore it.

user15026

17:24

Like...I agree that a very confrontational/antagonistic approach isn't always teh best one in these cases

apaul

@Ash This.

user15026

There's a middle ground, I think, and I think that's what SE/IPS is trying to achieve.

Imus

There are 2 ways to show that their bigotry/trolling isn't accepted here. Either go against it and paint a huge target on your head. Or silently take away their power by flagging/deleting/... which I can't tell how hard it is for you targetted people :s

user15026

They're certainly not saying "ignore it and it will go away".

user15026

@Imus I think you can do both, to a point.

Mithrandir

17:26

There's room for a well placed public stern "this is not welcome". There isn't really room for a back and forth confrontational argument.

Imus

@Mithrandir This is indeed what I'm trying to achieve as well

ElizB

@Mithrandir Yes, I agree- I've done this once or twice so far, and then just left it at that, and flagged it. Whatever response they had in the comments was taken away.

apaul

I guess it would be much easier to stand down a little more, if I saw more of the "this is not welcome"

Imus

Feel free to point us here when you are feeling attacked again next time before you push back against it

chances are that it'll get flagged and with some luck instantly deleted right then

otherwise you might also hear from people like mith that they're silently working on it

so at least you get some positive feedback at that moment

apaul

"Therein lies the most horrible aspect of the “don’t feed” mantra: rather than doing anything to address the trolls, the more tangible effect is to silence the victim and the reality of their abuse, or worse, to blame them for it." theverge.com/2018/7/12/17561768/…

3

Imus

17:31

that's exactly why I'm suggesting to first ask here about it

HDE 226868

. . . Was there an incident on IPS that triggered this discussion?

If so, I should probably know about it.

@Mithrandir This. We can and will take action against repeated crap like that. None of y'all deserve to put up with continued abuse.

Imus

Not a single incident, more an ongoing thing with the latest wave of apaul's question/frustration on people not stepping up for lgbtq+

ElizB

@apaul I think that the comments that lead up to "this is not welcome" being said would get deleted because they're nln, that's why I think we don't see it as much.

Correct me if i'm wrong, please :)

apaul

The article @Ash linked to says it pretty well. That's a big part of the frustration for me in these situations.

@HDE226868 The usual thing happened when I posted a question...

HDE 226868

@apaul We've been monitoring that one super closely since you posted it.

user15026

17:34

although, to be honest, I think this particular one is less problem having than others - from what I've seen here, the only really problematic comment was mostly borne out of misunderstanding.

apaul

@HDE226868 Ya, it shows.

TheTinyMan

@apaul I am really glad that this article puts into words thoughts and feelings on these topics that I've had for a long time.

HDE 226868

@apaul I'm not sure how to read that.

apaul

@HDE226868 The dumpster fire seems to be a slow smoldering one, as opposed to the ragers of the past.

HDE 226868

(By the way, I've cleaned up the now-obsolete comments - thanks to whoever flagged)

Anoplexian

17:42

@Ash I agree. My comment was misconstrued as being attacking, but in reality I was just questioning the actual question that asked for confrontation.

I flagged a bunch, maybe me?

I'm not usually flag happy, but something about this site brings it out of me. ;)

Mithrandir

Being flag happy can be useful

...I'm kinda flag happy at times :P

ElizB

(venting about something very off topic from this discussion) I don't like it when people assume I'm hearing... (sigh) someone passed by me and I have no idea if they were talking to me or not... understood nothing of it. (end rant)

Anoplexian

Also @apaul, I like the rephrasing to encourage them to step up. It can mean anything the bystanders need, but I like that it says "How can I get them to do something about it".

@ElizB Does it matter? If they were, then they would try to get your attention again right, so I don't think they were.

HDE 226868

@ElizB I get that a lot while running. If people I know say something out a car window while they drive by, I usually can't tell 1) who it is or 2) what they said.

Anoplexian

(Just for you to note, I'm hearing impaired (Permenant eardrum removal on the left side with an auditory disorder) but not completely deaf).

ElizB

17:48

@Anoplexian You're right, thanks :) i freak out about that especially in the work environment. kinda split on happy and sad that I don't have the same "overhearing" ability... most of it probably is useless. some of it is about family life, which i might be interested...

@Anoplexian I was born profoundly deaf and have cochlear implants :)

Anoplexian

Maybe this is weird, but I wish I was completely deaf.

Imus

@Anoplexian Care to elaborate on why exactly?

Anoplexian

It's really disorienting being partially deaf, and frequently causes migraines and infections.

ElizB

@HDE226868 That's something I might not even look at because there's too many environmental sounds

Ahh, yikes. I can understand some of that, because when one of my implants is off, it's not as good as both... i don't know if that's even a good comparison...

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Mithrandir At times? AT TIMES?

Imus

17:52

@Anoplexian sounds like a solid reason indeed. Are you able to put that against a list of positive things about still hearing at least something? to compensate for those issues ...

Anoplexian

It's not too far off, but the bad part is I still hear sounds.

No.

I would rather it be completely deaf and have implants.

Imus

(quick note: If i'm being too intrusive feel free to just tell. I'm sometimes too curious, but mean well :) )

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Anoplexian Ugh, don't ask me how but I know the feeling

Anoplexian

Or even a single side be deaf.

Mithrandir

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I only have... 17k helpful flags!

Anoplexian

17:53

Because with just the one good ear, I don't really know what sounds are supposed to sound like, because it sounds different on both ears.

And my equilibrium is always off.

My girlfriend thinks it's hilarious when I run into a wall because I lose balance suddenly.

Imus

@Anoplexian Ever heard an alarm go off so you know you had to leave the building to be safe? Or can you tell when a doorbell is ringing for example?

Anoplexian

It is, but it sucks too.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Anoplexian ding bam ding boom tss

Anoplexian

I can tell, but it's closer to having two different sounds entering my head.

Especially for non-bass sounds.

ElizB

@Anoplexian I can relate. Implants aren't full hearing... so pitches and tones are different for me, but i will never know...

Anoplexian

17:54

Yeah.

Tinkeringbell

I read that article too, someone linked it to me. And I understand how frustrating things are if you're not on the moderating side of things. I got fed up here too, until I noticed how much has been done (and is still going on) that mods can't tell directly about...

I think the only thing we can/are technically allowed to say, is that we've taken action (and are regularly doing so) several times a week...

Also, like people told you, please, please don't get the impression we're telling you to do nothing and just suck it up, like the quote from your article. We're asking you to flag. I'm s…

8

Anoplexian

So like I said it's really disorienting. xD

So a doorbell for instance on my right side is a "ding, dong", but on the left it's like "dang,ding". That'd probably be the best way to describe it.

Imus

@Anoplexian that's annoying but the plus side is that you can at least tell the doorbell is going right?

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Tinkeringbell The flag button has to have a lot of red, and be called

. . . "punch"

That way, you won't hear any complaints

ElizB

I can understand that- i think i had a huge issue with vertigo because of my ear development, my cochlea wasn't fully developed. I suffered from that two summers in a row, each for about a month total. it eventually faded away, but it was horrible.

Anoplexian

17:57

Sometimes, but then sometimes it gets....too loud? Idk how to describe it. It gets scratchy and sorta takes my focus away.

And depends if I don't think it's the microwave, an alarm, or any other sound that resembles it.

Because a lot of the pitches sound the same, so my head will confuse which ones go to which.

Imus

@Anoplexian I'm overall interested in how people with a handicap experience the world, and I'm often surprised just how many things I take for granted. Perhaps it's an idea for you to check if there are certain things you take for granted as well over what your situation would be if you would be entirely deaf?

Anoplexian

I have to concentrate hard to find frequency and context.

Mithrandir

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I'm sure we could set up a userscript

ElizB

@Anoplexian Hmm, I think i can relate... my implants each have "experience levels, and my right one is 3 years older than my left, so it sounds sharper and clearer on that side, while my left is more of a "support" and isnt as sharp or clear. I can understand speech better with my right instead of left.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Mithrandir There is already one, actually. Bhargav uses it

Anoplexian

18:00

Exactly, @ElizB. It's a bit disorienting no?

ElizB

@Anoplexian yes, it is sometimes, especially if it is noisy and i'm trying to identify new sounds.

Anoplexian

@Imus I just don't feel the pros outweigh the cons.

So back to what you were saying, if it was important they'd get your attention. :P

If it's not, then I think it's fine you missed it.

ElizB

Right now, i have my implants off because my co-workers were just chattering away like squirrels and i'm trying to think on what to write for my research paper (and not doing well either way... i don't write well.)

Anoplexian

It's all in your head. ^_^

Are you an academic?

ElizB

@Anoplexian Getting my masters in public health, so yes?

Anoplexian

18:07

Nice.

And Yes. XD

ElizB

^_^

Extroverted Main Man

18:26

0

Q: How to Politely Ask a Coworker to Turn Down the Volume on their Notifications?

Side Note: I'm in the US, and I chose to ask this on IPS as I'm viewing it as a coworker interaction rather than enforcing company policy I'm a summer intern at a tech company, and my office space is usually fairly noisy. This is just due to the nature of our desk layout, and the fact I'm seated...

Introverted Meta Man.

19:38

0

Q: When to flag a comment for review?

I just ran into a comment that seemed rather personal and angry and was thinking of flagging it but wasn't sure exactly what qualifies as a candidate for flagging. Took a look at the help page but didn't see anything relevant (although I could have missed it). The comment is clearly an angry "w...

discussion

ElizB

20:06

Have a good day guys :) Great discussions! (grumbles at pouring rain outside) Ah, well. I'm happy I don't melt in the rain. Sure, I might be grumpy, but I guess I'll live.... :P

Extroverted Main Man

20:18

1

Q: How to avoid conflict refusing to honor kid naming traditions

I live in Eastern Europe and in my country we have a common practice of naming baby boys the same name as the father's father. While generally not an issue, I have entered a serious relationship and though we are not planing to have kids in the foreseeable future my father has started to apply a ...

conflict-aversion family

apaul

21:09

So about that thing I was talking about earlier.

-1

A: Encouraging bystanders to step up

Will you take an answer from someone who's on the other side? I mean, one of the "homophobes". Which is a very incorrect term because phobia means fear, and I don't have the slightest of it. Some may even define me as a militant far-rightist. That I am certainly not, but then again, it's not up t...

Someone else want to say it before I do?

Going once...

scohe001

Gotta give us time to read that short-novel of an answer!

Though from only the first paragraph things aren't looking good...

apaul

Going twice...

doppelgreener

I've downvoted and flagged as r/a. It's not even an answer.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Which answer?

doppelgreener

@apaul <- this one

it's just a screed on being an asshole

with a side of venting or life sharing

apaul

21:20

Sometimes I really wish I could get away with telling people what I got locked up for

Then again...

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@doppelgreener Wow, OK

So off doesn't even deserve much of a reaction

apaul

22:39

@HDE226868 Just spotted your comment on the now deleted post. Thank you for that. That's kinda what I've been looking for for a while now.

scohe001

23:17

@apaul looks like that user lost their association bonus as well. I didn't realize that was even possible.

apaul

23:33

@scohe001 My understanding is that there's supposed to be a -100 rep penalty for answers deleted as spam r/a

scohe001

Ahh I wasn't aware such a system existed

Extroverted Main Man

23:45

0

Q: Taking a moral stand( conflict resolution)

There are two people A and B who are embroiled in some unknown conflict. Both of them think they are right and are unwilling to listen to each others opinion, or to even hear each other out in trying to find out what the issue is. Now A has tried reaching out to B trying to understand and explain...

relationships conflicts negotiation

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