The Awkward Silence

1:12 AM

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Calling people out for being bystanders I ran into a rather nasty one this past weekend. I was out with a close friend at a party and could very clearly hear people making exceptionally nasty homophobic and transphobic comments, up to and including threats of physical violence towards us. My fri...

apaul

Why does Sandman have a wolf/husky profile picture?

Catija

Looks like something Wad would have picked.

scohe001

Haha @Tink chose it, you'll have to ask her

apaul

hmm... odd, but whatever.

Introverted Meta Man.

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Q: Should question 16793 have been closed?

Question 16793 is an etiquette question asking about the common courtesy of how/when to stop conversation with someone in online dating. This question was closed as "primarily opinion based" and from the comments there are two reasons for this. The first of which I disagree with and that is tha...

sphennings

1:35 AM

@apaul I've also doubled down on particularly poor choices after I've been called out too. Take for instance the backlash effect.

apaul

@sphennings Fair enough. That's why I asked in the sandbox first.

sphennings

I'm glad to see it's getting used :).

I figured if we wanted to talk about how I've responded to people calling me out that's pretty unrelated to critiquing your question so it would be best to move that tangent to chat.

apaul

Really working hard on that SE mod tone, it shows ;)

sphennings

It makes it easier to shut people down who are trying to make a mess of things.

apaul

Sorry... Still in a pretty rough mood about the whole thing.

user15026

1:43 AM

@Sandman I always worry about "how do I make bystanders do a thing" because...I can't help it but I think of times where I probably should have spoken up, but for various reasons (some obvious, some not) it would not have been safe for me to do so

apaul

I've edited the narrow the goal, but it still seems like an admonishment wouldn't be out of order in the slightest.

sphennings

@apaul No worries. That sounds like a really miserable situation to be in. I'd be pretty livid if I was In your shoes.

user15026

So I understand wanting to do something to get people to act, but I also understand that you might not be able to easily identify that they're not acting because they're inherently complicit in acceptance, or because they can't for reasons that you might not know (and I might not be able to explain to you)

apaul

@Ash That sounds like it could be a part of an answer, and one that might fit in some situations, but I don't know if it really fits this situation.

I don't think they were inherently complicit. Just that it was kinda... Well "not awesome" to pretend that it didn't happen.

user15026

shrug just a random thought, more than anything

IsaBbott

1:49 AM

Hi guys

user15026

I don't have an answer, I don't really know I want to have one (because I am tired of having to try to teach people how to be decent humans around queerness, lately, to be perfectly honest.)

apaul

Any pointers on how to get the question in better shape before it goes to main?

Or is this likely another one of those things I should quietly delete because people are more likely to be "not awesome" about it?

sphennings

@apaul I'd put some thought into how you word it so that it's focusing on figuring out what to do in the future instead of using the site as a platform to vent your frustration. I think the core of question (How to talk to people about speaking up in the future?) is a good question for this site.

apaul

So, cut the context?

sphennings

2:05 AM

@apaul Not completely. It's an important part of the question. It's the circumstance that you're approaching these people with.

You don't want to know how to talk to a random stranger you want to know how to talk to the people who didn't act last time.

apaul

So what is your suggestion exactly?

sphennings

I'd drop the paragraph about wanting to unload on the bystanders, and the sentence after that.

Jesse

@sphennings I was going to add your comment to the question but changed my mind. Think it suits best as a relevant comment for extra context since its not directly related to the question

sphennings

It might be a good idea to do a rework of what remains. I see that you're writing from a place of pain and anger.

apaul

Why?

sphennings

2:14 AM

I'd remove that text because it's a lot about how you feel and very little that helps people be able to answer your question.

apaul

Context matters

sphennings

@apaul Context does matter. Remember that I'm just another user with my own rather vocal opinion. I encourage you to form your own opinion and disagree with me.

apaul

When I'm answering questions, being able to get a sense of where the OP is coming from emotionally is usually helpful. Empathy matters too.

Then again, maybe I'm just tired of being told to suppress. People have a right to be angry in some situations.

sphennings

I guess it depends on exactly what you're asking. You could also ask "How can I express my feelings about my friends failure to act in a manner that doesn't cause them to double down on their behavior?"

@apaul I don't think you need help being vocal and angry at people. :p I'm trying to read between the lines to create a clearer more specific question.

apaul

@sphennings That could have been a part of a more complete and nuanced question, but we usually don't like those.

sphennings

2:21 AM

If you want to ask a more nuanced question be my guest. You'll just need to make sure that the nuance is clear for the HNQ and FGITW crowds.

apaul

Thanks for the reminder that SE is pretty crap about these things, I'd almost forgotten in the few minutes since you last mentioned it in the comments section.

Actually, f it. I'm not likely to find an answer here, and people are very likely to act like s about it, so I'll just not bother.

Jesse

Wait no

I liked the question as is

Perhaps it could use a little extra clarification of your goals because its quite intensely emotional. but i think that would clear up most of what the comments were talking about

I even think it would be very well received

by the majority at least.. can't talk for everyone

user15026

2:41 AM

@apaul I am not sure why you're so stuck on this - like you ask us for help, we offer help, and then you keep getting mad we're helping

apaul

3:44 AM

@Ash Was I mad about the helping or perhaps already mad and perhaps that was exacerbated by the way the site operates and it's not so subtle layer of condescension and pedantry? I deleted it because Sphennings made clear what I could expect on main, and I'm not in the mood for it.

@JalapenoNachos Funny how you tend to drop in like that...

scohe001

@apaul I'm bummed you deleted, I'd already started drafting an answer in my head

apaul

Ya... It's a hard life for us all.

scohe001

I think the biggest part of the reception sphennings is talking about would be from the tone that you've written with. It's the age old rule of the internet that somebody who's clearly upset will attract trolls like moths to a flame. I like the question and I think that if you sleep on it and try to write it a little more dispassionately it would avoid a lot of the HNQ flak

If you decide not to post it but still want to talk, feel free to ping me :)

user15026

4:22 AM

@apaul the fact that you constantly assume that there will be condescending stuff and pedantic stuff so you come in angry right out of the gate doesn't help. It feels like you more want to prove that we are as awful as you think, sometimes.

user15026

This site is far from perfect, that's for certain sure. But I think you had a good question in there, I think though you need to learn to step back from the defensive feeling anger - we aren't you, we only have what's in the questions to go by, and most of us do honestly want to help.

user15026

I get being angry at this stuff, but I think you end up putting a lot of your anger at the situations into anger at the site, and that's not really helpful long term.

Tinkeringbell

@scohe001 Actually, I didn't. Some mystery guest did

user15026

I know you don't like some of the ways IPS has decided to do things, but your constant put downs of SE as a whole and the people here who participate within it's guidelines/constraints is...really unappreciated, to be honest.

user15026

@Tinkeringbell curiouser and curiouser!

apaul

4:32 AM

@Ash There's a difference between "assume that there will be" and "seeing that there is" Granted I was already pissed off about something, but I've slept on it for two days and decided to ask about it. It's a pretty miserable thing that a site about interpersonal skills requires people to divorce their question from emotion, and reduce it down till it's digestible by people who couldn't answer it to begin with.

scohe001

@apaul the Sandbox suggestions are far from being "requirements." They're suggestions at best and only from a very narrow portion of the community (for now!). You question was easily already up to snuff for main site as it was.

The situation you describe sucks. Hard. Is there anything we can do here in chat to help?

@Tinkeringbell color me intrigued. How did they get it to you?

apaul

IPS... If you want to help people, help people. If you don't realize that the tone of that help changes the way it's received, maybe you're not being as helpful as you would like to think.

When managing the site and it's users becomes more important than offering help, we're kinda losing the point of the thing.

scohe001

@apaul Tone can be a little tricky when all I’m able to communicate with is a jumble of letters :)

apaul

@scohe001 More of a general statement about the nature of the site... But I think you knew that.

scohe001

@apaul Ahh I didn’t acually. I thought you were referencing my latest messages. My bad.

Magisch

4:54 AM

→ 23 messages moved to Trash

Morning

Tinkeringbell

@apaul IPS isn't supposed to be about help. It's about questions and answers about Interpersonal Skills. With that attitude we shouldn't even be closing questions, and someone would pull the plug out of this very soon.

@Magisch good morning!

apaul

@Tinkeringbell Here's hoping.

Jesse

Always lovely if you can answer a question in a way that genuinely helps through IPS. Nobody is saying you aren't allowed to help, just keep it on topic

apaul

@Tinkeringbell What is an answer if not "help"? Curating content should be slightly behind that goal... Otherwise you're just dusting grave stones.

Jesse

@apaul keep in mind the difference between helping the question asker and helping the general user of the site. When things contradict I think taking a greater good approach isn't too bad.

apaul

5:09 AM

@Jesse Ya, I usually take the greater good approach. But I usually place that goal way ahead of the goals of SE.

Tinkeringbell

I'm having some weird sort of deja-vu. I believe we've already been over this... And I'm not going to waste more energy on it.

user15026

@apaul I really don't understand what you are trying to do, if you keep railing against how SE works

user15026

You seem to want to push against the fundamental ideas of how SE does what it does, and while that does work up to a point...its not tenable for the site

user15026

I am just trying to figure out what your end goal here is

apaul

@Ash Just suggesting that maybe this ultra orthodox belief in the unyielding SE model does more harm than good in some instances. Maybe we're placing more value on the survival of Stack Exchange, than on the Qs and As that actually makes the thing worth doing. Curating has its place, but it shouldn't be the primary goal.

If we have to curate posts to the point that the questions and answers are hollow, what's the point? Who is the site serving?

user15026

5:37 AM

The fact that IPS exists is kinda proof that it's not as unyielding as you claim.

Mithrandir

6:27 AM

→ 4 messages moved to Trash

People really need to stop commenting on question #16441.

Magisch

@Mithrandir That question is controversial and interesting to a lot of people. What do you expect?

Mithrandir

@Magisch People to pay at least a little attention to the comments left before about not commenting.

Magisch

@Mithrandir These are mostly HNQ visitors

Tinkeringbell

6:43 AM

That question has been HNQ for waaay too long

It's not even a great question for IPS standards, not a signpost for the site :(

Magisch

The vote counts on the answers are off the charts to

116, 251, 423(!), 205....

Mithrandir

There have been roughly 220 comments on the question and its answers.

Tinkeringbell

89 deleted on the question :/

Luckily it's almost out of HNQ

Magisch

I mean it's not the askers fault but this question's answers of what is essentially varying degrees of "you're having an emotional affair, stop it"

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Isn't it? I've been wondering... to me it sounded a lot like 'I need arguments to convince my wife'... I don't see many arguments in the question

Magisch

6:49 AM

What OP asked is How can I convince her that the relationship is platonic without changing the nature of the friendship?

The answers are all pretty much "You can't, stop that friendship as it is" with one or two suggesting actual outs

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Yeah. Usually we then ask 'what've you tried already'. I don't see that in the question

Magisch

It bothers me that the most popular questions here seem to be the ones where you can channel righteous outrage into a frame challenge.

Tinkeringbell

True. So we either ban frame-challenges, go harder on the back up

or require better questions

or or or

I don't really know how to fix it

Extroverted Main Man

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Q: How to fight with stranger for my own benifit when I do't have any backgroud support

There is spare space on the road side, basically anybody can use that for car parking. I was using this space since 2 months. But now my neighbour wants to speak on this and asking to get out from there. He wants to park his vehicle there. Please suggest how to deal with it ?

interpersonal-theories

Mithrandir

step 1: fix your <kbd>n</kbd> key

Imus

7:27 AM

> I can see deleted posts. They sit around like normal people. They don't see each other's, they only see what they want to see. They don't know their bad.
> how often do you see them
> all the time. They're everywhere

Cashbee

I see dead posts.

:)

Imus

how can a post be dead tho?

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell me either, I'm drawing a blank

But we got a CM who knows intimately about this site now, so finger's crossed

Tinkeringbell

7:39 AM

@Magisch I don't think CM's hammer beta sites into shape :P If we want this to succeed, it's up to us :/

Magisch

Yeah but at least we have someone who knows we're trying now

and also might offer more situation specfic pointers, having been on the site for a long time

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch The rest knows too ;)

Magisch

Yeah I know what you mean. Still I think it's an advantage for IPS

IPS Comment Bot

7:58 AM

Not a full answer, but remember they can not force you to have kids. I told my parents, they laugh me off, and I proceeded with my life as usual. Not breaking contact or anything, just the regular stuff that happens day to day. Now, a couple of years later, they seem to start accepting my choice. — Drakryttare 1 min ago

#16861 Drakryttare (111 rep) | Q: How can I make my parents (and parents-in-law) accept that I don't want to have children? (score: 31) | posted 20 hours ago by aperture (164 rep) | Toxicity 0.10325272 | edited 12 hours ago by aperture (164 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]

Cashbee

@IPSCommentBot tp

no more feedback? yay :)

Mithrandir

@Cashbee probably just broken, actually

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