The Awkward Silence

A J

13:01

@Belle-Sophie he kinda reminded me of someone.

a character in a movie I think

Belle-Sophie

@AJ Now I want to know which one :P

A J

My mind is occupied right now.

can't recall

Cashbee

!!/alive

IPS Comment Bot

I'm alive and well :)

avazula

@IPSCommentBot Aaaw, what great news

ElizB

13:19

That's interesting @Magisch, I was definitely late for my interview and didn't get it.

Marcus

Guys i need to get something off my chest

Magisch

@ElizB with the german central bank?

They even showed us the scale and explained the score system they were using

ElizB

No, to a state job here in New York.

Magisch

And had intermediate explainations for every step on how we'd be graded

ElizB

I wasn't scored that way (shrugs)

Imus

13:21

@Marcus what's the matter Marcus?

avazula

@Marcus Is everything okay buddy?

Marcus

I'm struggling hard to find sympathy for the sjw-movement in the US. main reason being trying resolving the majority of arguments by using group identity

avazula

what's sjw?

Imus

social justice wario's

avazula

What's that? What do they do?

(I'm a newbie haha :) )

Imus

13:24

they take complaining about inequality (like women earn less than men!) too far in an attempt to be treated better irregardless of whether or not that would be more equal

Belle-Sophie

@avazula "Social justice warrior (commonly abbreviated SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual who promotes socially progressive views, including feminism, civil rights, and multiculturalism, as well as identity politics." From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior

Marcus

whenever there is an argument about discrimination/racism they try to put people in groups, find their privilege and then resolve the argument not on facts but the group with harder lifes get to be right

or to be more specific

whenever they are losing the logical argument they go on group identity, cultural background and all of a sudden its not anymore about the argument but on why the other person cannot be right because he lacks background

Mithrandir

@IPSCommentBot fp

Imus

@Marcus And that's why these days the memes make fun of SJW's for not striving for equality

ElizB

I see what you mean. Because I identify within the deaf community, I understand both sides

Marcus

13:26

and on recent posts on our ips i find similar patterns. now it clicked

the thing is, they seem to have lost the ability to argue. whenever someone disagrees with them, they try to put the other into a group that they can fit into their "enemies" and thus they cannot be right

ElizB

Can you give some examples? I'd love to continue that discussion. many deaf people I know do that when I know that isn't the way to go

Marcus

i could but i fear ill get burned at the stake

ElizB

For example a well known argument from the deaf community: "They're HEARING!" "They don't understand what deaf people went through!"

Imus

Tinkeringbell

@Marcus Would you like to talk somewhere more private?

ElizB

13:30

@Tinkeringbell That's what I was going to suggest too.

avazula

@Tinkeringbell I'm interested too :)

Belle-Sophie

@ElizB Look at the disagreement on this question. It gives you a bit of an idea about the ongoing "battle".

131

Q: How can I address being paid less than my male colleagues with similar or lesser roles in my company?

I am a female developer that has been working at a company for two years. Last November I asked for a £3500 pay rise which I believe will put me inline for what I should be paid for my role. I was promised that the pay rise would come in January with the annual pay reviews, it never happened. I ...

Tinkeringbell

Hahaha if everyone is going to chime in, we might as well have the conversation here ;)

Marcus

ok here i go, but give me benefit of doubt

11

Q: Encouraging bystanders to step up

I ran into a rather nasty one this past weekend. I was out with a close friend at a party and could very clearly hear people making exceptionally nasty homophobic and transphobic comments, up to and including threats of physical violence towards us. My friend and I are both queer, and she's trans...

united-states conflicts lgbt+

ElizB

yeah, @Marcus I think you're among friendly people that like having a good discussion and being open.

Tinkeringbell

13:31

I'm going to set some base rules:

- No dogpiling on Marcus! If we all disagree, don't all go shouting at once.
- Give each other time to talk, and say what needs to said. There's no need for near instant replies
- If I say stop, it stops!

Marcus

particulary that answer here interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/16952/13628

avazula

@ElizB You definitely are Marcus :)

@Tinkeringbell Roger that!

Marcus

oops, let me try again

"First, you have to make room for the possibility that they might have a different definition of "the right thing". Now, I am with you on this,"

ElizB

@Tinkeringbell Sounds fair! :)

Marcus

answerer had to state, they are on the ops side. my guess is, they'll fear they'd get called homo/transphobic the second they criticize

Belle-Sophie

13:34

@Marcus I think (don't know, just guessing!) that may have to do with the answerer knowing the OP (from chat)

Marcus

and the pattern i see is people asking IPS questions and add their group even if it wouldnt matter in that case. then all of a sudden its about groups and their privilege, and we call it cultural background. the initial argument wasnt touched on a logical or IPS level

Belle-Sophie

But I get what you mean. I never noticed that. You just opened my eyes, so to say.

avazula

I think it may be related to the fact that written communication is way more unclear and difficult. I see it everytime I ask sth here, people will ask for many details I thought I've made clear in my post.

Marcus

well that it

crucify me

Tinkeringbell

@Marcus Nah. ;) Your concerns are certainly valid. That's why IPS basically has two important things:

- First, we ask everyone to include as much details on their social and cultural background as possible. This way, it's much easier to see why someone fighting e.g. an arranged marriage can cause such a stink in the family.

2

Belle-Sophie

13:40

I don't understand some stuff either. I bought a really beautiful gown in China. This style: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1mGopX8_85uJjSZPfq6Ap0FXab/Chinese-Rayon-Two-Piece-Robe-Print-Floral-Nightgown-Nightwear-Casual-Spaghetti-Nightie-Women-Bathrobe-Kimono-Gown.jpg_640x640.jpg
I got called racist for wearing it around the house :|

Tinkeringbell

- Second, we ask answerers to honor the premise of a question. If you're all for arranged marriages, you don't go 'answering' the question by telling the asker that arranged marriages are completely normal and they should just bend.

2

avazula

@Tink thanks for wording those rules. I wish they'd be respected more often than they're really are.

Tinkeringbell

So @Marcus if you see answers/comments being about the group, instead of answering the question, that certainly is a reason to ask in chat whether or not something is still about Interpersonal Skills or not

avazula

@Belle-Sophie Just curious, were those people Chinese? It happened to me before, and the people who called me racist weren't of the supposely-targeted group of people.

Tinkeringbell

(spoiler alert: most often it's not)

JAD

13:43

@avazula There is a lot of third person offendedness going on on the internet, that's for sure

Belle-Sophie

@avazula Nope. They weren't.

JAD

@Tinkeringbell the same could be asked about some questions, at least in the past, whether they are truly about the IPS issue

avazula

@JAD I'm certainly actually part of them. I recently asked on how to make my coworkers reconsider making threatening jokes towards a community I'm not part of.

ElizB

This reminds me of what I heard about the movie Coco- Another group said that Mexicans would be mad, and then when mexicans saw those comments they butted back and said they absolutely loved the movie and approve of it... @JAD is right, this is just one of many examples of people getting offended for another minority group without actually going and asking whether they are offended or not.

Tinkeringbell

@JAD Those generally get closed as off-topic, I believe ;)

JAD

13:45

@avazula well, it's not really a black-white kinda thing

Belle-Sophie

@avazula I think you have to ask yourself, is this really offensive? About your question, I think that's an absolute yes.

apaul

clears throat

JAD

I think it's perfectly fine being uncomfortable with such jokes. But being offended by something someone wears in private

Belle-Sophie

Hi @apaul ^^

Journeyman Geek

@Belle-Sophie It can be.

Swap out gender identity 'jokes' with say... racist jokes

avazula

13:46

@Belle-Sophie In the case on my question, it definitely was. It was disrespectful at first, and life-threatening at second. So I agree with you

apaul

@Marcus May want to think a little harder about that.

Journeyman Geek

@Belle-Sophie erm. Isn't that a pretty generic dressing gown?

Imus

@JourneymanGeek And that is exactly why it's problematic that SJWs jump in to call it offensive

Belle-Sophie

@JourneymanGeek I thought so too. Mine's red with embroidered dragons, so it's very "chinese"

Journeyman Geek

@Imus so.. bit of context - the SJW context and "cultural appropriation" is a very...

erm

western context.

Imus

13:49

@JourneymanGeek Yup, as far as I've seen

Journeyman Geek

If some chinese dude wanted to wear indian traditional dress all the time, we'd be cool with it

and I think the SJW narrative is a bit dangerous - both from the side of self confessed SJWs and their 'opponents' since it encourages the idea of, well... it somehow being opposites.

apaul

That's assuming that the SJW narrative is something more than a hyperbolic straw man.

Journeyman Geek

@apaul hmm

Yes and no

Belle-Sophie

@JourneymanGeek It is a difficult line to tread on. Imagine a woman being paid less than her male coworkers (as WP had a question about recently). Is it because she is a woman or because she is less skilled, unlucky, didn't ask for a raise...?

Marcus

@apaul Can you elaborate on what i should think harder about?

Imus

13:53

I never took SJW's seriously in the first place .. until we had one where I work -.-

Journeyman Geek

@Belle-Sophie Its unfair

assuming equal skill levels

Imus

correction: I still don't take them seriously but am now forced to ackowledge that they can be problematic

apaul

You're much more likely to see individuals with individual sensitivities, causes, and things that they're likely to take offense to, but it's easier to dismiss people when you lump them into a group and claim the loudest extremists speak for all of them.

Tinkeringbell

@apaul There's a whole spectrum, going from people being offended on other people's behalf and thus annoying a lot of other people, to people that really want to make the world a better place and carefully pick their battles, I believe

Journeyman Geek

heh

Belle-Sophie

13:54

@JourneymanGeek That's the thing though. How do you measure equal skill levels? It's known that women earn less on average, and that's something that's certainly needs changing (in my opinion at least), but it's difficult to say something about an individual case

Journeyman Geek

@apaul ... we're agreeing there.

@Belle-Sophie more that - its a more fundamental issue - of unfairness than well...

what's this have to do with SJWs again?

avazula

@Belle-Sophie Which is interesting to see that in average, for the same job, women have a worse wage. Not all women can be worse at the job than men. This is an indicator :)

Tinkeringbell

Never mind, wrong answer, to a different question :P

apaul

@Marcus the bigots weren't bigots simply for being rude. It's not like they were making nasty comments about my choice in shoes...

Belle-Sophie

@avazula It is. We're in agreement. It's just difficult to "prove" an individual case.

Avantgarde

13:56

hello

Belle-Sophie

@Avantgarde Hi

Cashbee

@Avantgarde hello! o/

avazula

@Belle-Sophie Indeed. But IMO we're too afraid to offend anyone to approach the issue objectively.

Avantgarde

So what's happenng here?

avazula

@Avantgarde Hi there o/

Marcus

13:58

@apaul i think you went offtopic or got something wrong

Belle-Sophie

To be honest, I think reverse SJWs are just as annoying as SJWs. You know, those people that claim racism, sexism, bigotry etc don't exist.

Tinkeringbell

@Avantgarde Everyone is trying to have a polite discussion. Base rules can be found here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/45837972#45837972

avazula

@Belle-Sophie I agree on that.

Avantgarde

Oh ok, thanks. Legit chat session.

Tinkeringbell

@Avantgarde Business as usual, just a bit more formalized because of the topic ;)

Honestly you can find people chatting here a lot of the time, although it's usually just bad puns or trying to get questions on topic ;)

apaul

14:00

@Marcus It looked an awful lot like you were saying that the group affiliation was irrelevant to the question, and that is was added unnecessarily.

avazula

@Avantgarde We're nice people. We don't bite :)

apaul

@avazula Got a mouse in your pocket?

Cashbee

@Tinkeringbell bad puns? now I'm hurt

avazula

@Cashbee Oh come on, you know she's right :)

Cashbee

@avazula don't hurt me, no more

avazula

14:02

@apaul Wearing a pocket-less dress right now meh

Journeyman Geek

@Belle-Sophie yup

Marcus

@apaul On some of the recent questions in IPS it certainly is not the major factor.

Journeyman Geek

or that it works backwords

Avantgarde

I know. I used to be here months ago. Just not around so much anymore

Belle-Sophie

@apaul If I may, I read it like Marcus thought that a specific comment in the answer (not your question) was irrelevant to the question.

Journeyman Geek

14:03

@avazula ... where do you keep things? ;)

avazula

apaul

@avazula The deepest form of sex discrimination... The lack of pockets in women's clothing. Or worse, fake, sewn shut pockets.

2

Marcus

@Belle-Sophie got it right.

Journeyman Geek

@apaul the latter is a crime.

TheTinyMan

@apaul Fake, sewn-shut pockets have to be an allegory for something.

Belle-Sophie

14:04

@avazula Fun fact. That song was #1 in Netherlands the day I was born.

Journeyman Geek

@TheTinyMan oppression and the inability to have a mouse in your pocket.

Marcus

And that was for that particular case. We recently had a discussion on an IPS issue where group identities were added unnecessarily.

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek I don't put mice in my pocket, unless they're made of candy

Magisch

@apaul I would damn well lose it

avazula

@JourneymanGeek I have what my friends call a hobo bag: I'm always wandering around with a backpack in which I carry litteraly all my stuff: my laptop. My notebooks. My lunch. My money. My friends used to laugh so much when we were going in a restaurant ...

Magisch

14:05

I buy my clothes in part because of the convenience and number of pockets

Journeyman Geek

@avazula I bought one of those military backpacks

and added more pockets.

avazula

Hahaha

Journeyman Geek

and I tend to wear cargo pants

Belle-Sophie

I learned sewing just to add pockets to things (well not entirely true but I like saying it)

Magisch

I need a lot of things to carry around at work. Phone, screwdriver, amp tester, sometimes screws, connectors, sometimes other tooling to cut network cables

Journeyman Geek

14:06

One. Never. Has. Enough. pockets

Cashbee

Not all sewn shut pockets are fake though! sometimes they are meant to be cut open after buying them!

TheTinyMan

@JourneymanGeek But the sewn-shut part? Like, I feel like that's an allegory for clinging to an appearance of strength and overcoming oppression while continuing to be oppressed.

avazula

@Belle-Sophie @Cashbee! New riddle: guessing Belle-Sophie's birth year!

Mithrandir

@avazula I either have a ridiculous backpack... or just my bike. Not usually much between.

Journeyman Geek

@TheTinyMan and the lack of pockets.

ElizB

14:06

@apaul Absolutely....

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell the one miliatary thing I love is molle

avazula

@Mithrandir I have BOTH o_o

Journeyman Geek

I actually need another backpack.

I have ---3 ---._.

Mithrandir

@avazula heh, I prefer not to have a large weight throwing me off balance when I'm clipped in

Journeyman Geek

(work, dog park, and this really cool razer one I love to bits but is impractical)

Cashbee

14:07

anyone need a swiss army knife?

Tinkeringbell

I have 3 regular backpacks, one crocheted one and a special one for my camera :)

apaul

@ElizB Mostly a joke... Mostly...

Journeyman Geek

actually

I have 4

also have the little one I bought for a fiver at decathalon

Belle-Sophie

I have a ridiculously large camera bag. But I found a new hobby in macro photography and I cba to buy expensive camera lenses so I have like 10 different ones from ebay and thrift shops for 5 euro each with macro adapaters. My whole kit weighs about 5 kg :D tripod 2kg extra.

ElizB

@avazula I have a big purse, plus a lunchbag that I bring to work daily. When it's rainy i have extra baggage- umbrella and a bulky raincoat :P

Mithrandir

14:08

@Cashbee I carry one in my pocket

avazula

I recently switched and am currently using a purse, with a very "cute", "feminine" shape (please note the quotes). But inside I still have my hobo stuff. I even have cat treat hahaha

Mithrandir

along with my phone, inhaler, alan wrench set, and keys. that's what I always have with me

Journeyman Geek

I was gonna ask

user15026

@apaul because I tend to wear female pants, I literally buy my pants based on pockets. Like they fit and they have pockets are my only requirements.

Journeyman Geek

candy that is cat shaped, candy for cats or candy made of cats.

Mithrandir

14:09

(even when I'm biking)

avazula

@Cashbee Mine was confiscated last time I flew to Germany. Forgot to remove it from my hobo bag shrugs

Belle-Sophie

@Ash I wish that worked for me. I'm a tad fat so I need to buy plus sized stuff. :(

Journeyman Geek

@Ash cargo pantsss!

Cashbee

@avazula yeah, classic.. >.<

Journeyman Geek

@Cashbee I have a swiss army knife. And a very small crowbar (at home)

avazula

14:10

@JourneymanGeek Nah, candy for cats :) For the homeless people's pets

Marcus

Alright guys i've got to leave

Journeyman Geek

ah.

Belle-Sophie

Bye o/

Marcus

thanks for not piling on me

Tinkeringbell

@Marcus Bye! You're welcome, and do drop by soon again! :)

Journeyman Geek

14:10

piles on @Marcus

avazula

Candy made of cats dear God haha I'm vegan :)

Cashbee

@JourneymanGeek a small crowbar? do you use it to open pickle jars, or just as a shoehorn?

Journeyman Geek

@Cashbee funny story that

avazula

@Marcus o/

Journeyman Geek

saw it at daiso and had to have it...

Belle-Sophie

14:11

@JourneymanGeek piles on Journeyman Geek and Marcus Make a stack, guys!

Journeyman Geek

I've used it to do home improvements.

user15026

@Belle-Sophie I'm a 300 lb human, so I feel you. I have found one store that consistently has fat human sized pants with pockets and I buy all my pants there.

ElizB

See ya @Marcus :) Good discussion, I hope?

Journeyman Geek

@Ash I vaguely get that

though its more that for some reason a lot of pants here... pinch. people here have smaller tighs than I do ._.

user15026

@JourneymanGeek yeah, I should just look at male pants like that for ultimate pockets

apaul

14:12

@Ash My ex used to joke about my "uniform" because of that sort of thing.

Tinkeringbell

Okay. Quick poll. Who, in this room, owns more than 2 different types of pants? Different colors don't count!

user15026

@apaul because you wore the same stuff because you knew it fit and was what you wanted? I totally get that.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell me?

user15026

@Tinkeringbell like jeans vs dress pants?

Belle-Sophie

I'm somewhat overweight at 190 lbs. I tried shopping in normal shops, but stuff is always one or two sizes to small. I tried large-people shops, but that didn't work out either...

Tinkeringbell

14:13

@Ash Sorta :P I have 2, 3 jeans and a pair of nicer jeans

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell jeans, vaguely dressy pants, that green pants IDK where from but are comfy, cargo pants...

I've also worn shorts, and the indian equivilent of a kilt.

apaul

@Ash Yup. Find something that's functional, buy 3

Journeyman Geek

though I wear the latter over shorts ;)

I also tend to wear clothes to the point they fall apart tho

apaul

@JourneymanGeek what does the Indian equivalent of a kilt look like?

Cashbee

@Ash I am a quite tall, slender male. shopping for clothes is the horror for me. L: too short, too wide. XL: too wide. XXXXL: enough long, but wayyyyyy too wide

Journeyman Geek

14:15

@apaul actually there's two varients

Tinkeringbell

@Cashbee You should go for those pants that actually have two sizes, one for length and one for wideness

Journeyman Geek

is informal

ElizB

@Tinkeringbell (raises hand)

Journeyman Geek

as an unmarried male its something like this

Cashbee

@Tinkeringbell yeah for pants it's not as cruciating. but for tshirts and pullovers and such

ElizB

14:16

I definitely have at least 4, and some different colors.

Belle-Sophie

@Tinkeringbell I have 2 jeans, a pair of genie pants, 5 dresses, a long skirt and short skirt. I also have a battle skirt (armor) and a kilt. Do I win? ;)

Journeyman Geek

there's formal pleated crazy ass thing as well

Nice thing is you can just throw it overwhatever in about 30 seconds.

user15026

@Cashbee I am increasingly convinced that no one designs clothes for actual people

Journeyman Geek

My local temples started banning shorts/berms cause tourists

so I just wear that over my shorts when I go

has great mobility, and if you decided not to have the safety blanket of shorts, very airy, more so than a kilt ;)

apaul

@JourneymanGeek looks comfy

Cashbee

14:18

@Ash I now know some shops specializing in clothing for tall, slender people. they're lifesavers, really

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek I used to wear these summer skirts that were really light and pleated, and airy... Just threw them on during holidays and ready to go!

Journeyman Geek

(same way, there's a 6 yard 'informal' sari and a 9 yard thing that they wear for formal occations for women)

@apaul it is, but its not something I wear day to day

apaul

@JourneymanGeek I learned the love of skirts on hot days down here.

Journeyman Geek

the older generation wore it at home

@apaul india is hot. our clothing is mostly optimised for it if folk don't go super fancy ;)

apaul

Not culturally accepted here though...

Belle-Sophie

14:21

@apaul You could try genie pants. I don't now about Florida, but in Netherlands, the worst that happens is that you get called "hipster".

apaul

@Belle-Sophie Those are actually pretty popular at some of the festivals I go to.

Journeyman Geek

@apaul ah, but see...

"Excuse me sir, are you denying my right to my culture?"

;)

also in singapore no one cares. They assume you're going to the temple ;)

apaul

In major cities that will work here, but I recently moved back to the sticks.

Journeyman Geek

ah :(

Belle-Sophie

My work (chat) day is over. I'm allowed to go home again.

Journeyman Geek

14:25

I don't think I'd go to work dressed like that ;)

Tinkeringbell

@Belle-Sophie Drive safely!

Belle-Sophie

Time to eat my leftover Chinese. I guess I'll eat Chinese tomorrow too.

@Tinkeringbell Thanks! I'll be careful to avoid all the campervans :)

Imus

@Belle-Sophie How many Chinese did you kill to still have leftover for tomorow? :o

:p

Tinkeringbell

@Belle-Sophie Good :P There's way too many of them nowadays!

Also, I guess we're bbq-ing tonight

Belle-Sophie

Nom. I still need to buy a bbq

Imus

14:28

also this: youtube.com/watch?v=7DqvweTYTI0

Mithrandir

\o/ now I officially got the editing job

Cashbee

@Mithrandir congrats!

Mithrandir

:)

ElizB

@Mithrandir Great job!

Tinkeringbell

Nice! So... what are you going to spend the money on, a new bike? :P

Mithrandir

14:38

@Tinkeringbell It's not quite enough for the bike I want :P

Cashbee

@Mithrandir oh, the one where the current translation is so unreadable?

Mithrandir

@Cashbee yep

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir But it may go a nice way ?

Maybe you can then convince your parents to chip in the rest :)

Mithrandir

Oh, yeah - it's 1,800 local currency for the 65 pages. The bike, in local currency is, ~2,900, not counting shipping fees.

Tinkeringbell

So you'd have... over half of it already. That's great! :D

Cashbee

14:42

@Mithrandir obvious isn't it... just add shipping fees for your editing, then you're gucci

Mithrandir

@Tinkeringbell indeed :P

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: What is the color to indicate if things are going average

I need to know the color between red & green. As Greed is for something positive & Red for Negative than what is the color to indicate if things are going average. Neither good nor bed. Here I am looking color to show as a signal. I am very new here even don't know how to use Tags. Thank you

work-environment

Mithrandir

@Tinkeringbell Maybe when I turn 16 :P

Cashbee

@ExtrovertedMainMan what is this

Imus

@Cashbee spam/troll/sinsere youngling that doesn't understand what this site is for/... take your pick,

Tinkeringbell

14:46

@Mithrandir Nice :D Ask grandparents, aunts/uncles (if they do give gifts for birthdays as well :P) and you'll get one eventually!

apaul

@ExtrovertedMainMan Offtopic, possibly better fit for UX, but I'm not sure.

Cashbee

@Imus sounds like a riddle actually.

> When green is good and red is bad, what is pink?

Mithrandir

"a color"

@Tinkeringbell ...hmm, it's this week. How did that happen?

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir Huh? Your birthday is this week?

How did what happen...

Mithrandir

Yeah

apaul

14:51

Nice 7 downvotes, I must be doing something right.

Journeyman Geek

lol

@apaul I consider posts with a good mix of both (on metas) to be doing something right.

Sid

@Mithrandir Your Birthday is this week? Friday or Saturday?

Mithrandir

@Sid one of them

apaul

If video games have taught me anything... When you encounter bad guys you're going the right way.

Journeyman Geek

@apaul but you got to hit a few of them

Cashbee

14:54

haha nice one.... but you haven't played many open world games have you 😀

Journeyman Geek

and hope they miss ;)

@Cashbee if there's dead bodies, I've been there before. Unless they re-spawn. In which case we need to make more dead bodies.

Anoplexian

@apaul And you also occasionally get knocked down before you reach the goal.

apaul

@Anoplexian Hmm?

Cashbee

is this really a phrasing request? interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/16878/8077

i think it's a perfectly fine question. and the one answer it has shows that well

Tinkeringbell

@Cashbee Close enough...at the very least, it lacks details...

Who are they going to ask, the cleaning person or the manager?

Cashbee

15:04

@Tinkeringbell that's what he's asking

he doesn't knwo how to communicate X to cleaning personnel

because he doesn't see them

apaul

@Anoplexian Kinda have to poke you about your comment yesterday... It would seem to be a fair assumption that the bystanders wouldn't have been homophobic or transphobic on religious grounds given that they had been eager to be friendly before and after the incident.

Cashbee

going home early today 😀 have a nice day you all

ElizB

@Cashbee I agree

Tinkeringbell

@Cashbee Hmmm.... Usually I'm weary of saying 'good answers make the question okay too'... at least one of the votes seems to come because 'they feel it should be on travel' though, which I disagree with... Maybe put it on meta ;)

ElizB

@Cashbee See ya! have a nice day :)

apaul

15:09

Wait, I may be getting usernames mixed up, may have been @Astralbee

Anoplexian

It's fine. My point was more that they might have a different way of handling it if they disapprove. It wasn't so much "Is being cruel to LGBT correct", but "Is having them confront them at that time rather than using a more subtle/powerful method more effective?"

For instance, I tend to not confront people directly if they're homophobic+, but will begin to exclude them from events, give them less of my time, and isolate them as much as possible.

I don't know necessarily that it's the most effective way, but I just wanted more details on why you thought the direct confrontation approach was best when they might have already had a method in place to handle it.

apaul

Ah... Could have been worded better worded if we're talking about the same comment.

Anoplexian

Probably.

That's why I'm on IPS right?

I do know from experience that a direct confrontation on bigots almost never works.

Because they thrive off it, and are practiced at bullying people who decide to disagree with them. It's what makes them bigots in the first place.

apaul

Read more like a "they may have a different perspective on what the right thing to do is, because they may not be as supportive as you think"

Anoplexian

Well that may be true too, but the evidence isn't there so I wouldn't assume that at the fore.

apaul

15:17

Very often bigoted comments build... Starts off as someone saying something mildly rude and then the next person says something slightly worse and so on. If someone steps in early in that escalation, it can often be squashed before it gets really nasty.

"Did you see those two?"

"ya of course, I invited them"

Then it's over.

See what I'm saying?

Anoplexian

In my experience, people are usually more secretive than you think. I had a friend I've known since childhood who never displayed any sort of transphobia until he met my best friend and snapped, calling him slurs all over the place. Needless to say I let it sit, then let our shared friend group know, who didn't like it. He was slowly excluded from the group and eventually moved away, citing that he didn't have any reason to stay.

But I agree with that, which can make it so hard.

On the other hand though, you're talking about doing the same thing to the bystanders that the bigots are trying to do; they just have the initiative.

And I think that's what makes it so hard.

Because there's peer pressure to take a side immediately, whether it's with the bigots or not and where neither side is a winner for the bystander.

apaul

@Anoplexian What?

Anoplexian

I hate editing on this site.

apaul

Are you really shooting for a moral equivalency? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Anoplexian

No, more like having been that bystander, it's not so simple.

apaul

15:26

Eh...

Anoplexian

If I've experienced that person as aggressive, I either stand up for my friend and get decked (I suffer), or I don't and my friend suffers. I don't like either of those options, because either way my side suffers, when the real goal needs to be to make the bigot suffer.

apaul

Ok, I get where you're coming from now.

Anoplexian

Adding alcohol into the equation just makes it that much more difficult to navigate.

So I don't challenge whether you're in the right, but whether your way is the right way.

apaul

There's some group dynamics at play. If you're already aquainted with the bigot, and they know that you're straight etc, you're substantially less likely to get decked. One of those privilege things.

Anoplexian

I never make that assumption where alcohol is involved.

I've been decked by the shyest person I could imagine after a couple beers. She later apologized profusely and almost broke down into tears.

apaul

15:32

Hell a direct confrontation may not even be necessary, simply changing the subject would have been helpful.

Anoplexian

Yeah, but how would that look before hindsight? I agree that it's a better way to go with action on the backend, but in the moment it would look a lot like they didn't really do anything.

Especially if the first few attempts were unsuccessful, but I wasn't there which makes the whole thing a bit difficult to read.

apaul

@Anoplexian Ya, but when it was mentioned later, as it was, they could have said that was why they changed the subject rather than acting like it hadn't happened...

Whole lotta misunderstanding of the question on the comments section on that. Almost seems like people are trying really hard to read the question a different way... for reasons...

Anoplexian

True, but that's a bit tertiary to the question and I don't know their motives on it.

And given other people's secretive transphobia experiences, it appears to me (the cynic) that they might not be the sort of friends you thought they were.

shrug Some people might be reading it like that, but not this guy.

apaul

Was more referring to the most recent comment.

Anoplexian

Seems a bit baity, but I can see the first question as useful.

Dynamic changes a bit depending on that too, but then they go and say "coerce them into escalating" which feels really insidious.

apaul

15:47

That's what makes it bait, rather than just a crappy attack comment. Gotta wrap the hook in something...

Tinkeringbell

apaul? You just mentioned in here that e.g. you'd like people to step up when the conversation shifts to being hateful, but before the threats of physical violence. That's something you might want to add into your question as context. Because I must admit I read your question as expecting these friends to stand up while these people were threatening violence...

Somehow 'up to and including threats' doesn't really convey very well that this was a conversation that started at a point that could much easier be de-escalated than threats of violence, it also doesn't convey very well that this w…

Anoplexian

All of my comments are made because I don't understand as a neuroatypical more than any sort of intention to hurt. Using words like "right" is iffy right now in America because of struggles with rights and such, but using "coerce others" is definitely insidious.

apaul

@Tinkeringbell Eh... I would like people to step up even after the situation has escalated, but I get your point.

The fact that this went on for an hour is probably very relevant.

Too late to make such a big edit?

Anoplexian

i.imgur.com/3VwfviR.gif?noredirect

Never too late.

Tinkeringbell

@apaul your choice, you could update the answerers...

gotta run now.

Anoplexian

15:53

(Took me way too long to find that gif).

Tinkeringbell

we can talk later tonight if you want

apaul

Chameleon questions are a thing.

Anoplexian

-sigh- And another Trump scandal.

How quickly I've become jaded by things that would professionally blacklist anyone who tried it.

But @apaul I think adding those details won't invalidate any answers and might even make some of the existing ones better.

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