The Awkward Silence

7:02 PM

@Cascabel we all also have a responsibility to mediate our own difficulties as well. When I sit in a room, I KNOW I have a hearing impairment, so I sit in the front, closest to the speaker, it is not reasonable for me to sit in the back and expect him to shout and make everyone else uncomfortable so that I can hear in the back.

Cascabel

Yup, it takes a village, or whichever idiom you prefer.

Tinkeringbell

Yet, a wheelchair is very visible, and reaching makes it kinda clear the person might appreciate some help. I must admit, since I got my diamond, I still can't smell an autism disorder this side of the screen...

So yes, I assume good intentions and try to educate everyone

But the vibe I got from your meta @RichardU, is that I should go about that differently than for NTs?

Cascabel

And a person in a wheelchair could be upset by even someone asking if they should help, if it's something they feel it should be clear they don't need help with.

Richard U

@Tinkeringbell it's also the responsibility of people to not weaponize their disabilities

@Cascabel in that case the person in the wheelchair is being a jerk/

Cascabel

If they're hostile because of it, sure. But just for feeling upset, no, they're not.

Extroverted Main Man

7:04 PM

0

Q: How can I deal with a heartfelt person?

I met a woman 3 years ago. We started a relationship and everything was going very well. She is an extremely affectionate woman, this made me feel suffocated and I made comments that hurt her a year and a half ago. I asked my sincere apologies and she 'accepted' them. We finished 2 months ago, ...

Richard U

@Cascabel yes, if you get upset over a polite request, you're a jerk

Cascabel

Um, no?

Richard U

@Cascabel yes, yes indeed.

That was taught to me, and I stress that with others with disabilities. If you take a polite inquiery or a sincere offer of help as an insult, you're the jerk.

Cascabel

So you're never upset when someone makes an incorrect assumption about you because you're not neurotypical?

There's a difference between "take as an insult" and "be upset."

Richard U

@Cascabel why would you be upset otherwise.

Tinkeringbell

7:06 PM

@RichardU Because it's a daily reminder?

Cascabel

Because... we have feelings, and they are positive when things happen that are what we like, and negative when they're not?

Richard U

@Cascabel I often get asked if I can count cards.

@Tinkeringbell I guarantee you I never need to be reminded about my disabilities. And, if you're getting upset over "reminders", you need serious mental help, as you have not come to terms with your problems. Actually, If I knew someone like that, I'd be concerned that they may be suicidal.

Cascabel

We can be upset if we get in a car accident that's a total accident; we can be upset if they find out they have a disease; we can be upset if we find out something we loved is gone. Those are real feelings. And we can also get upset by things caused by another person. Those are also real feelings, and we still feel them even if we know the other person didn't mean to do it.

Richard U

@Cascabel Yes, we have feelings, but not every feeling we have is justified. I feel jealous when I see someone with a nicer car or who can hear, but that doesn't make those feelings good or valid. It just means I need to get over it, change what I can and accept if I can not change it.

Rainbacon

@RichardU As you said, you don't need to be reminded. Doesn't it upset you if someone reminds you of something you don't need to be reminded of?

Tinkeringbell

7:09 PM

Yet, there are a lot of people that are well aware of their 'disabilities', yet unwilling to ask for help or accept any, and they get upset when they realize they have to.

They're not necessarily suicidal, but in the phase of coming to terms with their limitations.

And the reaseon I wrote 'disabilities' is because I'm thinking of my grandparents here, that have to give up more and more autonomy and freedom of movement because of old-age...

Richard U

@Rainbacon only if they are being deliberately malicious. Then I usually respond with a healthy dose of snark

Cascabel

@RichardU I don't know enough about you or how your brain works to know what's best for you, but I can say with confidence that this is not true for me, or for plenty of people. It's okay to be upset about something that's not anyone's fault, it doesn't mean we need to get rid of it, it often means we need to acknowledge it and figure out how to deal with it.

Richard U

@Rainbacon actually, I'm reminded of my hearing every time I go to the restaurant and the waiter comes on my bad side. I don't get offended, and I make a joke about it so he knows that he hasn't offended me.

@Cascabel exactly, it's our duty to deal with our limitations, not everyone else's

Cascabel

I was talking purely about validity of personal feelings, not whether others should care about it.

Richard U

@Tinkeringbell yeah, and acceptance is a big thing. if they're feeling that way, they need counseling. It's an awful thing to deal with.

Cascabel

7:12 PM

Given that pretty much everyone has feelings like this, and it's possible and even easy to upset others without meaning to, being kind to others involves being aware of this, and adjusting.

Richard U

@Cascabel not every feeling is valid. I've had the urge to murder people and that feeling isn't valid no matter how justified it may be.

Cascabel

Er, wanting to murder people is not really at all the same thing as feeling upset when someone accidentally says something that upsets you.

Tinkeringbell

Still, counselling won't take away the feelings. It'll probably give you ways to handle it, to live with it, to accept it... But I think we're kinda getting lost on feelings now, while I'm curious what I can do to make sure people with autism don't feel like this site is hostile...

Richard U

@Cascabel being kind to others is simply being kind. We cannot be mind readers and if an honest gesture is taken as an insult, it's on that person.

Cascabel

We are not born knowing what will and won't upset every last person in every last situation. We're going to get it wrong a lot of times over the course of our lives. How we deal with that situation is how we have good interactions and build relationships.

Richard U

7:14 PM

@Cascabel only in degree. But I do carry around so much rage thanks to my neurology that I feel that way often. I don't act on it, but I feel that way.

@Cascabel as you may have guessed, I am a bit on the mischievous side. I have, in the past, taught people lessons of being too sensitive by deliberately acting as offended as possible, then pointed out the very real fact that they held me to a lower standard than others just because I acted offended.

Cascabel

I'm not sure that yet another reminder that you sometimes act in bad faith is a great justification for... well, anything.

Richard U

I don't act in bad faith on SE, ever

Cascabel

That you sometimes act in bad faith elsewhere, okay.

Richard U

I spoke of the past, not the present.

Cascabel

...in the past.

In any case, the fact that people tried to smooth things over because you acted offended pretty much just means you successfully took advantage of them.

Richard U

7:17 PM

Yes. and I am hardly the only one to have ever done that

which is my point.

sphennings

@RichardU So because there are people who act in bad faith we should dismiss everyone who speaks up?

Cascabel

Yup, and going right back to when I first joined this conversation, the fact that you and others have managed to take advantage of others doesn't mean that others who are acting in good faith shouldn't be treated with kindness.

Richard U

@sphennings I think I would have said that if I meant it.

Cascabel

What exactly is your point, then?

Richard U

@Cascabel again, not at all what I am saying.

sphennings

7:19 PM

@RichardU Then enlighten us.

Cascabel

If it's anything at all about not having to take others' feelings (offense, upset, whatever it is) into account, then what I said above is my response.

Rainbacon

>
Aaand it may be time to stop this... Y'all get one more try, but please don't start accusing each other...

I'm not sure this conversation is particularly fruitful at this point

Richard U

@sphennings thank you, hopefully, I will. People are people. We interact with each other. IF you're out of the mainstream, you have some challenges that others don't and others have challenges you don't. Most people can hear well, for example, or at least better than me. You have no expectation that the person you are talking to is hearing impaired, and I have none that you should expect it.

Catija

@Rainbacon ? Where is that?

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

I'm not sure how a discussion about niceness on SO led to this

Cascabel

7:22 PM

@Catija 45 minutes ago or something

Rainbacon

@Catija It's back up the chat a ways, Tink posted it

Richard U

Now, here is where there should be a meeting of the minds. It is MY responsibility to ameliorate the social interaction by letting you know that I'm having problems hearing you.

it is your responsibility not to insult me once you know.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

This is not so bad anyway, but my bar is a bit too high for this chat, I've learned

@Rainbacon you copied a line break too, which I forgot how to do :p

Richard U

@sphennings now here is what would annoy me. IF YOU STARTED TALKING TO ME LIKE THIS

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@RichardU NAH, I'M TOO LAZY TO USE BOLD

Richard U

7:24 PM

**WINNING**** ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ArtOfCode

aaaaaah screaming

Cascabel

@RichardU okay, but what if they somehow knew you were hard of hearing, and started shouting because they thought it'd be helpful, they didn't intend to insult you? Is it still okay for you to feel annoyed?

Richard U

@Cascabel I'd say "I'm right here, Joe"/
"

@Cascabel I've had 50 years of experience dealing with it.

doppelgreener

For my part it's okay to feel annoyed.

Cascabel

I was asking about the feelings, but sure, it's okay for you to say something to correct them, and expect that they will change their behavior.

doppelgreener

7:26 PM

I have anxiety. Stuff that I have difficulty with can annoy me since I'm already stressed out. I just try not to act on that, and do my best to respond calmly.

Richard U

@Cascabel and what good would it do to get annoyed? Someone was trying to be helpful. When we're alone, I'd give them a general rule like "If I can see you, then I can probably hear you, you don't need to shout"

Cascabel

And that's what all of this was about anyways: if person A does something that's bad for person B, totally unintentionally, it's okay for person B to say something about it and expect person A to take it into account.

sphennings

I think what @Cascabel is trying to say is that there are situations where someone can annoy/cause harm while acting in good faith.

Richard U

@Cascabel if it's reasonable, yes. But we people with disabilities can be unreasonable just like everyone else./

doppelgreener

I've had people be annoyed at me, and I've tried to respond to that with kindness and assumption of good intent. It works out and helps them de-escalate, sometimes helps them figure out what was going on if that was missing, and helps them find what they need.

Cascabel

7:27 PM

@RichardU It's not about what good it does, it's just a thing that happens to pretty much everyone in the world, and we might as well say it's real. And really, if it didn't have a negative effect on you somehow, then you wouldn't be asking them to change their behavior, right?

Pheo

@doppelgreener You'll have to teach me your strategy at some point.

doppelgreener

Meanwhile the times I've been upset and acted out, I have sometimes had people respond similarly with rudeness, and it made the situation more difficult for me to navigate and lead to me acting out further. That was an escalation spiral.

Tinkeringbell

@sphennings Anyone familiar with the "Principle of Double Effect"?

Richard U

@sphennings here's something that happens to me all the time. Waiter is on bad side, I ask him ti come to the good side. Waiter gets embarrassed, and says "Oh, I'm sorry", I say "Why, it's not you're fault I'm half deaf"? of "Look at it this way, I'm the one customer you can yell at".

doppelgreener

@Pheo The main parts are lots of patience, and stepping back to recollect myself and re-assess what's going on for the other person.

Can I point out here that 50 years of experience dealing with something is a very non-negligible factor?

It's taken me 20 years dealing with the stuff I deal with to begin to come to grips with it.

Richard U

7:29 PM

@Cascabel If we assume good intentions from people, it makes life easier for all of us.

Pheo

@doppelgreener Ah.

Richard U

@doppelgreener yeah, that's called experience and wisdom.

Cascabel

@RichardU Yes, it does, and yet assuming good intentions doesn't mean no harm is ever caused, just that we go about avoiding future similar harm in a blameless way.

doppelgreener

Yeha, and that experience and wisdom means I'm not going to act the same way who hasn't had as much expeirence.

Richard U

If I can teach the young'uns to catch on, life will be easier for them too.

@doppelgreener true, but you might want to listen to someone who's learned the hard way.

doppelgreener

7:31 PM

From what I can follow from this conversation (which isn't much) we can also teach them by being kind to them. Probably best by being kind to them whilst we teach them.

Richard U

@Cascabel Is it harm, really? I have an eidetic memory, and if I wanted to, I could recall the literally thousands of insults I've gotten over the years. How would that help anything.

@doppelgreener yeah, and teach them that people are jerks, so don't expect them to be nice, but appreciate it when they are.

Cascabel

@RichardU wasting 15 seconds talking where you can't hear is relatively small harm, but that doesn't mean it's not worth correcting

And when I say feeling are real I don't mean to translate them into blame or grudges.

Richard U

@Cascabel they're real, but not necessarily valid.

doppelgreener

Lots of feelings are valid.

2

In fact, feeling upset at something is valid.

Feeling upset on account of someone's well-intentioned actions is valid.

Cascabel

It's just... well, assume good intent goes both ways. Someone accidentally does something that's not good for you, you don't blame them. If you're the one who accidentally did something bad for someone else, then when they let you know, assume good intent on their part - don't take it as blame, don't take it as criticism of you as a person.

Treat the fact that they feel it wasn't good for them (whether it upset them or what) as a simple valid fact.

doppelgreener

7:35 PM

I'm not sure where this conversation's going or what it's about anymore, so I'm going to step out of it again.

Richard U

@Cascabel I am in a state of constant rage, thanks to something going on with my brain. If I took every feeling of rage as valid, I'd have a very long criminal record and proably a murder rap or two.

Cascabel

Okay, so not all feelings are valid. Lots are.

or... I would phrase differently, actually.

Richard U

@Cascabel @Cascabel on THAT we agree completely.

Cascabel

More just that not all feelings are justifications for all actions we might want to take based on them.

sphennings

@Cascabel I'd say all feelings are valid but most feelings aren't actionable.

Cascabel

7:36 PM

well I typed a little faster so there.

Richard U

@Cascabel yes, some are, some are not. We would all do better to step back and say "Wait? Should I be feeling this way?" and then evaluate it.

Cascabel

So if someone says something accidentally upsetting to me, and I feel upset or annoyed or angry or exhausted because of it, it's reasonable for me to say something polite to them, and it's not reasonable for me to slap them.

Richard U

@sphennings due to my neurology and a medical condition, I am always feeling rage, even when I am happy. Is that a valid feeling?

sphennings

@RichardU Self reflection is important, I wish people (myself included) would do it more often.

Cascabel

@RichardU Whatever is the best truth for you and your rage, it's not how most people's minds work as far as I know, so I would hesitate to extrapolate from it to generalizations about how others' feelings work.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

7:38 PM

@Cascabel No, the correct term is "jinx"

Richard U

@sphennings which is my ultimate point. Does SE need to do some introspection? I think so. Should the people getting POed at SE do some introspection to see if their concerns are at an appropriate level? I think so.

sphennings

@RichardU It's not my place judge you for how you feel. It's entirely unproductive for me to tell you that you shouldn't feel a certain way.

Cascabel

And yet there are things in common: I would certainly like to avoid doing things that increase your rage.

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How to maximise the chance an ex will return money I leant her

About seven years ago a five-year, live-in relationship of mine ended. We stayed friends and, though I now live in a different country, we still keep in touch, albeit casually and not often. In real life we see each other perhaps once a year (since we share friends) and once or twice a year we ch...

relationships money texting

Richard U

@Cascabel No worries, It has become an old friend at this point. Even though I always feel it, it isn't incited easily.

@sphennings I shudder to think of what I would have become if I were told growing up that me feelings of rage were all valid and okay to have.

Cascabel

7:39 PM

And I also don't think that it's somehow wrong if your emotional response to something negative is a brief increase in that rage. It's not how you want to choose how to respond, sure, but... if it's how your mind processes negative effects, it is what it is.

sphennings

@RichardU If I did a thing and you said "Sphennings when you did that thing, I felt angry. Could you not do that thing in the future?", it would be a dick move for me to say "Don't feel angry" or "You shouldn't feel angry"

Richard U

@Cascabel I have to be very careful. I am not a small man, and when I have been legitimately in "hulk smash" mode..... not good.

@sphennings Well, it depends on what that thing was, doesn't it.

sphennings

@RichardU There's a difference between valid and actionable.

Cascabel

@RichardU Yeah, I'm aware you have to control the combination of the feelings and the actions based on them. I just don't think it's constructive for us to blame you for it.

Or to pretend that we play no part in it if we are the ones who, with good intent, triggered it.

Pheo

@RichardU Now I have to cite that!

Richard U

7:41 PM

@sphennings the one precedes the other, and it's a dangerous path to go down on.

Cascabel

If it's something we could learn to avoid, then that's what matters.

Pheo

@Cascabel And only if those who walked down the right path could turn around more often.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Dang, this is too philosophical

sphennings

@RichardU Not really. I did it because I felt angry is poor justification for an action.

Pheo

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ House trained programmer.

Cascabel

7:43 PM

@sphennings I think the point was about losing control.

Sometimes the best way to avoid the irrational action may well be to try to stem the emotions that'd lead to it.

But for example, "hey, it makes me sad to hear things like that" is a pretty reasonable reaction, so there's much less need to try to control the sadness.

sphennings

@Cascabel True, but controlling how you respond to your emotions is very different than someone else telling you that you're feeling the wrong thing.

Pheo

@Cascabel Now that is philosophy.

Cut the stem of a carnivorous flower, and it may never bloom to its ugly finale.

I just hope I'm not plagiarising anyone.

Richard U

@sphennings thought precedes action, and it's not about someone else telling you that you're feeling the wrong thing, it's you telling yourself.

sphennings

@RichardU Sorry if I hadn't been clear. I'm only talking about other people's responses to someone saying "I feel x".

Cascabel

I guess I'd say the interpersonal aspects are a bit independent of how people choose to process their own feelings. Some people will do better by trying to tamp down their feelings in some way, others will do better by listening to them. Either way, the person they're interacting with merely has to respect that something negative is going on.

Pheo

7:51 PM

I feel x

doppelgreener

I think this is a situation where a thing that works for one person for their circumstance may not be what works well for another in their circumstances.

Richard, it seems like because of your circumstances, you've found a way to respond to and deal with your own feelings that works well for you, or may even be totally necessary for you.

Richard U

@Cascabel when you've fallen as far as I have, the only two options left are suicide, or introspection.

@doppelgreener ^^^^^^

doppelgreener

There are approaches and views I take with people that are at odds with some of what you're saying -- such as, validating an upset even if it's unreasonable, because it helps someone move past the upset -- and that doesn't work for you, which is OK. But it may work for others.

Cascabel

And you're in the best position to know what's right for you; a lot of this is just about what may be right for others.

Richard U

What I am saying is that we ALL have the responsibility to work at interaction. I should be able to expect that people won't deliberately aggravate me, and I have the responsibility to assume good intent.

I think that that is a reasonable approach for all.

Now, we should approach SE to be more kind, but we should also be mindful that some are going to be upset regardless, and whether or not they think they are justified, they may not be.

Extroverted Main Man

7:56 PM

0

Q: How can I ask a friend what his address is without raising suspicion?

Basically I have a birthday gift for my friend who lives in another country. I know what his address is but I want to make sure he can receive packages or see if he moved or something. I also don't want to just take a chance and send the package cause it's very expensive and some items are not re...

friends

Cascabel

I think we should be able to expect even more: that people will do their best not to unintentionally aggravate us, which includes being mindful when speaking, and being willing to correct and learn from our mistakes.

Richard U

@Cascabel you can't chase ghosts. I know, for example that due to the autism, things will aggravate the hell out of me that nobody could possibly know unless they knew me. It wouldn't be fair for anyone to go around trying to guess like that.

Cascabel

I guess without knowing specifically what those are, it's hard to address. But there are things that will, for example, upset most trans people, which others often do accidentally, and that's a place where it's straightforward enough to be willing to learn.

sphennings

@RichardU Noone will ever be able to not offend everyone 100% of the time. This does not mean that it's unreasonable to expect people to put in a good faith effort to not offend those around them.

Richard U

@sphennings and if one puts in a good faith effort, one shouldn't have to expect someone throwing a fit at them.

Cascabel

8:01 PM

We're not suggesting throwing fits, we're suggesting it's okay to politely point out the issue.

sphennings

@RichardU Consider it the converse to assume good intentions.

Cascabel

@sphennings Yes, that - I tried to say it earlier, probably got lost a bit.

sphennings

For that to work people need to act in good faith.

Richard U

Exactly, people shouldn't throw fits just because they have their feelings hurt and should assume people are acting in good faith.

sphennings

@RichardU That's half of it. People also need to make a good faith attempt to not hurt other's feelings.

Richard U

8:03 PM

If SE is to succeed, then all sides need to be more accepting and less pugnatious

sphennings

If you only have people assuming good faith, or only making a good faith attempt, you are going to have problems.

Richard U

@sphennings So, what do you do when an autistic says something to someone who is hyper-sensitive?

who wins?

Cascabel

Assume good faith doesn't mean don't do anything. It just means that instead of throwing a fit you blamelessly point out the issue somehow.

Richard U

@Cascabel Like I do with the waiters who don't know I can't hear them?

sphennings

@RichardU With time ideally both of them.

Cascabel

8:05 PM

@RichardU Yup.

sphennings

With a waiter you assume that they weren't deliberately speaking in your bad ear, but you also expect them not to mumble or talk super fast.

Richard U

@sphennings My point is that there is, IMO, too much of "SE is a nasty place" and not enough "People need to be a bit more restrained in taking offense"

@sphennings what if the waiter has a speech impediment?

sphennings

Then you accommodate their needs too.

Cascabel

I'm sure you can come up with a hypothetical situation where it's fundamentally impossible to accommodate everyone directly. Most situations aren't like that.

sphennings

You work back and forth until you find a solution for both of you.

Richard U

8:08 PM

@Cascabel I was in special Ed classes back in the 1970s and 1980s. Every class was a train wreck like that because we were warehoused.

Cascabel

@RichardU Perhaps. On the other hand, it's a lot easier for people to be restrained in taking offense when they feel that they can politely point out issues and actually be heard, rather than argued with.

Richard U

@Cascabel I agree

Which I think comes to the cliquish nature of SE on some stacks

doppelgreener

FWIW, I use my ability to step in patiently when someone's upset because at that point I am able to step in patiently whilst someone is upset and help de-escalate.

Pheo

@RichardU Same idea for me, but it's a plane for me.

Cascabel

And I've had an awful lot of people saying dumb things to me on SE (sometimes definitely accidentally, sometimes straining the limits of assuming good intent), with absolutely no willingness to do anything but double down. It's human nature, of course, we don't like to be wrong. But it's a very real thing, and while I believe I try and generally succeed at responding civilly, it'd be nice if it were a little easier.

Richard U

8:11 PM

Look, it's a bird, it's a plane, it's superman!

Pheo

@RichardU Plane as in 2d surface.

Richard U

@Cascabel you should see some of what we get at TWP

sphennings

@RichardU When talking about the problems people see on stack exchange you seem to focus mostly on the assuming good faith half rather than converse expectation to act in good faith.

Richard U

@sphennings that is because you cannot control how others act. If you assume good fait, it takes the wind right out of the troll's sais

sails

sphennings

@RichardU You're generally talking about changes you'd like to see to the site.

Richard U

8:13 PM

Besides, to talk about acting in good faith is to assume that people are not.

Cascabel

@sphennings and as a subtle follow-on, we get that good intent "free pass" at first, but once a problem is pointed out, we don't get to pretend it's not a problem and avoid addressing it.

Richard U

@Cascabel if someone is acting in bad faith, and you assume good faith, they'll get bored because they want to cause grief.

Cascabel

@RichardU I don't know whether they're trolls or not, but it definitely doesn't always. I've said, so many times, something like "I know you didn't mean it this way, but this came across as..." and gotten debate and hostility back.

Richard U

assuming good faith thakes that power away from them.

sphennings

@RichardU Sometimes that is the case but not always.

I've seen plenty of circumstances where my attempts at assuming good faith lead to me getting burnt.

Richard U

8:16 PM

@sphennings I don't see how it can get you burned. Kill them with kindness. It confuses them.

Cascabel

@sphennings It's sort of a one-time thing, yeah? You initially assume good faith, respond based on that, and if they clearly demonstrate that they're not acting in good faith, well, you have information, you don't have to make assumptions.

(of course you still have to try to not escalate, etc etc)

Richard U

not that there aren't obvious trolls, but that's what voting and flagging is for, no need to engage

I once destroyed an online bullying group by making friends with a few of them.

Cascabel

Well, ok, if we're in the case where we can flag and delete absolutely everything and we don't actually have to talk to each other, a lot of this is irrelevant, sure.

Richard U

"Have I not destroyed my enemy by making him my friend"?

Cascabel

And it's awesome when you can do that but it's a lot of work, and not a burden we can really place on all the victims of the bullies.

Richard U

8:18 PM

@Cascabel nah, be nice to people, less work.

Cascabel

Again, being nice to people often does not result in the problem going away.

Richard U

@Cascabel I have never seen myself as a victim of anything.

sphennings

@RichardU There's a middle ground between doormat and bully.

Richard U

@sphennings yes, and I live there.

sphennings

@RichardU There are plenty of times where being nice to someone just enables their poor behavior.

Richard U

8:19 PM

@sphennings no, you can correct people in a nice way.

Cascabel

@RichardU I didn't say you were the victim. I'm saying that, when people in general are treated badly, while we can expect them to make an initial kind attempt, we can't expect them to shoulder the burden of actually befriending and reforming those who bullied them.

sphennings

@RichardU Perhaps this is a bit semantic but maybe nicer, but not always nice.

Richard U

@Cascabel true, but it remains an option.

Cascabel

@RichardU Yes, and people can completely ignore those nice corrections, and even escalate in response.

sphennings

Sometimes it's also ok to say "I don't have the bandwidth to deal with this now."

Richard U

8:21 PM

@Cascabel yes, that's called "Extinction behavior"

Cascabel

Not sure what you mean by that but in my book it's called causing more pain for the person who was already hurt.

Richard U

@sphennings I'd phrase that more like. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to engage you right now. I would appreciate a more civil discussion.

@Cascabel I dunno, I made a few new friends by being nice to bullies, and they are also no longer bullies.

Look at how all of us took this conversation down to a nice, civil, honest one.

All it took was a little kindness.

Cascabel

@RichardU Yup, like I said earlier, that's great, and it's also not really a solution to the more in-the-moment issues.

Richard U

@Cascabel try it a few times and see if it helps. maybe not in every situation, but you can always try other options if it doesn't work

Cascabel

@RichardU I am, believe it or not, saying this from experience.

Richard U

8:45 PM

@Cascabel I may be a cynic, but I know the good and evil of human nature. I have experienced unspeakable cruelty and unimaginable kindness. Which should I see humanity as?

Cascabel

Um, I guess I don't think we really have to decide that question in order to try to build a good world around ourselves.

Richard U

@Cascabel don't we?

Both are in the nature of all of us. How we treat others affects ourselves as well as them. If you want to get bad behavior to stop, appealing to one's nobler motives often works better than antagonizing them, doesn't it?

Cascabel

No? We're always going to see that whole spectrum. All we can really do is try to encourage people to be good, give them the opportunity to learn to do it better, and in some cases give up on people when it's not realistically within our power to stop their bad behavior.

If that was just a restating of "should we assume good intent" then sure, the answer is yes. That's not really the same thing as seeing humanity as good or evil.

Richard U

@Cascabel humanity is either, both, and neither.

Cascabel

@RichardU That's pretty much what I said. I'm not sure why you asked me which one to see humanity as, if your conclusion is also that it's not any one of the choices. Maybe I'm missing something?

Richard U

8:59 PM

@Cascabel because what we send out to people affects them. This is why assuming good intent is a good thing to do. You may not affect anyone who has truly malicious intent, but you may sway someone who is a bit miffed by deescalating the situation.

Cascabel

I don't need to be convinced that it's a good idea to assume good intent. I've agreed repeatedly that it's a good general approach.

Richard U

Now, once you have assumed good intent and someone has demonstrated an effort to cause trouble, that is a different situation.

@Cascabel it's more than a good approach, it demonstrates expectations and will actually ameliorate a person's mood, if not intent as well.

Plus, if a person is of ill intent, they will not get the reaction they want.

Cascabel

Okay, sure, it's a very good approach?

I don't think this is where there was any disagreement, in any case. We were more discussing desirable behavior from the other person in response (we're all gonna be that other person sometimes), and the fact that assuming good intent doesn't actually undo or invalidate the perceived harm.

Richard U

@Cascabel I like to remember how literal the phrase "take offense" is. If you don't take it, it doesn't harm you. It also tends to frustrate those who intend you harm.

It is perhaps the most important skill I have learned, since I am an easy target for many.

Cascabel

@RichardU This is not how most people work. It is difficult to impossible to avoid harm. It's possible not to show it, and that is sometimes useful.

Richard U

9:14 PM

@Cascabel It is not how most people work, but it is how many more can work, if they wish to do so.

Cascabel

No, it's really not about wishing.

And... I gotta run, so, mod hat on for a moment, in case anyone was tempted, please don't act like it's people's own choice to be negatively affected by others. Not a good way for us all to be.

Richard U

@Cascabel everything is your own choice. Who's else is it?

Mithrandir

Am I missing something? How is this not a "try this" answer?

Catija

@RichardU Yeah, that's not true at all. But I think, at this point, it's time to end this discussion.

@Mithrandir Why are you flagging as VLQ?

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How to approach my boss for a raise when put in new position without any of my own input?

I currently work as an Executive Assistant (EA) to the President of a large global company. The President and I have a fantastic working relationship, she an effective boss and also a great mentor. The President has announced her retirement effective in 2 weeks. HR approached me and said that the...

work-environment etiquette

Mithrandir

9:22 PM

....why not? That pushes it into the queue?

Catija

VLQ is not designed for bad answers. It's designed for unintelligible ones that are beyond editing. — Catija ♦ Apr 27 at 14:58

Mithrandir

No, it's certainly not for bad answers. Those should be downvoted. But delete-worthy answers...

Mithrandir24601

@Mithrandir What makes an (actual) answer that's readable and not spam deletable?

Mithrandir

@Mithrandir24601 Huh?

Sorry, I don't get what you mean.

Mithrandir24601

@Mithrandir What makes a 'delete-worthy answer', 'delete worthy'?

Catija

9:26 PM

@Mithrandir Read the VLQ explanation on the flag.

> This answer has severe formatting or content problems. This answer is unlikely to be salvageable through editing, and might need to be removed.

Mithrandir

@Mithrandir24601 Not being up to the standards of the site. Being not an answer.

Catija

That answer is absolutely salvageable by editing it to add more information.

Mithrandir

@Catija But only be the OP of answer.

Catija

So? I don't think that flag reason says anything about that.

Mithrandir

And that's not what the flag is talking about, as far as I understand things. It's like "Salvageable" in the Triage queue on SO - only if it's salvageable by someone other than the person who wrote it.

Catija

9:29 PM

MSE pretty clearly outlines VLQ to be used on posts that are, essentially, gibberish.

28

A: Please provide a flag option clearly designed for gibberish, contentless posts

I originally recommended using the offensive flag option here, because the wording fit and it allowed a sufficient number of flaggers to remove such nonsense from the site quickly. That's still reasonable in many cases: the jackasses who post answers consisting of nothing but long, repeating str...

doppelgreener

i've also seen that flag raised on one-liners

Catija

It's one of the most misused flags on the network.

18

Q: Remove VLQ as a flag option

The Very Low Quality flag option sucks. prepares for controversy I'd like to see it removed totally as a flag option. Its original purpose was as a response to contentless or meaningless posts; posts that aren't answers, aren't coherent, aren't even made up of words. It was intended for cases w...

discussion flags moderator-tools low-quality-posts

doppelgreener

those could be rescued by editing to add more information... but to the point you're basically just writing a whole new post, and a one-liner happens to be attached to it still maybe :U

Mithrandir

Gah my internet is borked

@Catija No. That post is saying that it's one usage of the flag, not the sole purpose.

justathought

9:45 PM

Can anyone explain to me why my comment on this topic workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/111464/…

was removed?

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@justathought Hi! This is the IPS chat. The Workplace chat is this one: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/3060/the-water-cooler

Catija

@justathought Don't use your comment to also answer the question.

Rainbacon

@justathought If there are TWP users here maybe, but this is the chatroom for IPS

Catija

Question was migrated, y'all..

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Catija from here, not to

doppelgreener

9:49 PM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ that's precisely why they're asking here about it though :P

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

And one minute before they posted the message

Catija

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Yeah... I deleted the comment... so it's still a fair question.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@doppelgreener the comment might have been deleted in the one minute window

@Catija I'll never admit you're right

Catija

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Wait... I thought you always accepted that I was right? You said that... I remember.

Why the change?

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Context, context, context!

Mithrandir

9:51 PM

He's an unstable compound, so fickle.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Wait, hello MAR. This is the IPS chat, not ELL chat

@Mithrandir my dialog is the dark villainous "What do you know about compounds?!"

Wannabe hero.

Mithrandir

not a ton, tbh

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Mithrandir only weirdos weigh their books

Mithrandir

\o/ I have officially gained the "weirdo" title!

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Only nonweirdos want to be titled weirdos

You're whatever you don't like. Deal with it

Life is cruel, Gandalf

doppelgreener

9:55 PM

mithrandir levels up! +1 weird! +1 style! -1 scary!

Mithrandir

I'm not scary enough? :(

doppelgreener

not at this rate you won't be

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@doppelgreener Hi! This is the IPS chat, not RPG

That's three words different

Mithrandir

Gandalf - Bilbo Baggins... do not take me for some conjuror of cheap tricks

►

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Mithrandir McKellen is the real Gandalf

That video proves nothing

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

10:13 PM

@IPSCommentBot too chatty, says the same thing as his previous comment

doppelgreener

@Mithrandir [spends 20 minutes on LOTR videos]

Mithrandir

oh don't worry i've spent much longer

Rainbacon

10:50 PM

What should we do with an answer saying "do anything but this". For context, I ran across this answer in the LQP queue.

I don't think it's LQP based on the earlier conversation, but I think I should be flagging it as NAA

doppelgreener

@Rainbacon My thought would be an answer should provide an actual solution (not solely advise against various courses of action); they appear to provide an actual recommendation in their second paragraph.

Rainbacon

@doppelgreener Maybe, but I'm not so sure

doppelgreener

11:06 PM

(it's pretty bad anyway & doesn't cite any personal experience fwiw)

Rainbacon

Yeah, I was working on a comment for that when I got to thinking that maybe it just doesn't belong

It's kind of a broad catchall. "Either tell her or don't"

If I was the OP I would find zero use in it

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