The Awkward Silence

IPS Comment Bot

05:15

@Pheo. Wrong, Pheo. I agreed it does not improve an interpersonal skill. — Sentinel 1 min ago

#13472 Sentinel (1455 rep) | A: Roommate with mental health issues (score: -2) | posted 31 hours ago by Sentinel (1455 rep) | edited 31 hours ago by Sentinel (1455 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["chatty"]

Mithrandir

06:29

This answer is feeling like a "try this" answer.

IPS Comment Bot

This good suggestion, why -1 ??? — LoveAPaulArse 1 min ago

#13503 LoveAPaulArse (1 rep) | A: How to respond to questions at family holiday gatherings without making the asker uncomfortable about my sexuality? (score: -3) | posted 3 minutes ago by LoveAPaulArse (1 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["+1"]

Mithrandir

09:12

flag-pls | Rude/Abusive (but not Smokey-worthy) | How can I politely find out the gender of a potential roommate via email?

flag-pls, del-pls | VLQ / NaA | How can I politely find out the gender of a potential roommate via email?

Tinkeringbell

10:08

interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/13494/1599 seems like a phrasing request to me?

Pheo

11:22

What was SD doing in here?

Mithrandir

There was a spam post on the main site so it was reporting it to here.

apaul

13:02

@Tinkeringbell Thought it fair to give you all a heads up about what's coming to meta tomorrow: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/44152476#44152476

Tinkeringbell

@apaul As long as you're constructive about it... If you want help writing it, just lemme know.

If it's just going to be another rant of flame-bait, I can give you a heads-up as well: It won't be up long.

apaul

@Tinkeringbell Define "constructive". ;P

Tinkeringbell

@apaul careful ;)

@apaul Just.... I know just as well as you that there seems to be problem, on IPS and SE in general. Ranting about it isn't going to help though, it's only going to make people tired of these discussions and in the end make them something that's undiscussable.

Having moderators across timezones might help with that a little, but in the end, it needs a community to say 'not okay'.

apaul

@Tinkeringbell That's kinda why I'm on my way out. The community is not saying "not okay"

It seems that the community is saying the opposite, and I intend to put that in the spotlight as a parting message. Just wanted to give you all a heads up.

Tinkeringbell

@apaul Aren't they? SE put two new mods on this site. People in this chatroom have been pinging others like crazy, trying to get stuff removed on their own, without having to wait for a moderator to wake up. People on meta have been defending me, you, and who-ever else was attacked.

apaul

13:11

@Tinkeringbell Have they?

I didn't see that happening.

Tinkeringbell

@apaul That question about race was the topic of discussion in the chatroom for an entire day, and people kept pinging in here that stuff needed to flagged because comments were entirely out of line.

apaul

Do you have some examples that you can link to?

Tinkeringbell

I'll dig through the transcript, give me a sec

apaul

@Tinkeringbell oh, that one.... The one that you yourself supported editing....

Tinkeringbell

@apaul I'd have edited it if it hadn't gotten any nasty comments too. A gentle edit does much more good than a rude comment?

apaul

13:20

@Tinkeringbell SE forbid that it could have been left alone. That's a part of what I'm talking about, the rules lawyering is obviously pretty selective.

Also, the comments that people want to consider rude are often pretty selective.

You can see deleted comments now? How long did Edgar's comment comparing homosexuality to pedophilia sit under my most recent question? How many upvotes did it get? How many surrounding comments were removed while that one sat there? @Tinkeringbell

apaul

15:21

That chat suspension was effective, definitely learned my lesson. @Tinkeringbell

Cascabel

15:35

Wow. If you want to have a conversation about how things can actually be improved, go for it. If you just want to talk about how awful everyone is because they haven't fixed everything yet, well, I understand wanting to rant but lashing out at everyone doesn't do anything to make things better for the folks you care about.

apaul

@Cascabel Can't really have an honest conversation about how things can be improved until people are willing to acknowledge that there's a real problem to improve upon...

Rory Alsop

@apaul people already know there is an issue, and many are trying to work towards improving it, but your deliberate attempts to provoke have only made things worse

I know you mean well, but sometimes you are your own worst enemy

Cascabel

People do know. There's no need to say otherwise.

Rory Alsop

and if you leave with a parting rant, that will only make things worse for those who are trying to make it better

apaul

@Cascabel Seems that there's the "don't engage" crowd, and then there's the "I don't see a problem" crowd.

Cascabel

15:43

I wrote a highly upvoted answer saying not to edit the race issues question and defended it. This is not "don't engage."

Rory Alsop

@apaul that;s what you see. I mostly see the "trying to help improve" crowd as biggest, with a few loud folks in those other camps.

Cascabel

If you want to spread awareness, there are ways to do it without saying that every last other person who isn't as angry as you is completely unaware or ignoring it.

Rory Alsop

@Cascabel ^ this!

Cascabel

You don't have to act happy about it but you certainly don't need to insult everyone with every breath either.

apaul

@Cascabel Perhaps it could be taken as insulting, but the message is intended to be "too little too late"

Cascabel

15:46

good grief sorry about the mobile typing

Rory Alsop

@apaul so you need to work on how you deliver that message, as it only sounds like @Cascabel mentioned

@apaul and there is never too late. There is only "what can we do going forwards"

what has passed has already passed

Cascabel

@apaul You have people who would listen and instead of giving them something to go on essentially you're walking up to them and saying "why aren't you listening??"

apaul

Yes there is a small handful of folks who are willing to speak up, but they're a small handful.

Often out shouted by the much larger contingency of dude-bros...

Cascabel

That's always true. Not everyone is active on meta, not everyone is activists. There's still a much larger number of people voting in support of reasonable things and flagging crap. They're not against you, or doing too little.

6

apaul

After taking some time to think during my suspension, I had to admit that I couldn't in good conscience recommend IPS to anyone I knew personally in real life. Most all efforts I've made towards making IPS the sort of place that I could recommend have been frowned upon.

Cascabel

15:51

And yes, there are loud jerks. Okay. Great. Let's deal with it, in a way other than being jerks to everyone until we all hate each other. That's a lot closer to what the jerks want than what we want.

@apaul And the efforts I've made have been appreciated, far as I can tell.

apaul

@Cascabel Notice that the jerks didn't get suspended?

Mithrandir

@apaul Jerks have definitely been suspended. Just not everyone defines jerks the same way.

Cascabel

@apaul I'm not an IPS mod so I can't say anything with certainty, but I assume some were, and some others shut up in time to avoid it. Jerks are often good at that. You... just kept going.

apaul

I guess, to put it as gently as possible, I don't feel comfortable recommending the site because hateful responses are kinda to be expected here. I posted a lightening rod to illustrate that, after being told repeatedly that things were just fine, and when they aren't they're handled appropriately.

Cascabel

@apaul Yes, I completely agree, questions on certain topics attract crap. And that's a valid reason not to post here, for at least some people.

apaul

15:57

If you have the rep to see deleted answers you're free to take a look around. Nearly all questions under the lgbt+ tag have at least one answer deleted as rude and abusive... The comments and the votes on comments are even more telling.

Cascabel

I'm not sure who said everything was fine; as noted previously, a lot of people have been involved in flagging and deleting crap.

Mithrandir

@apaul The fact that they're deleted should say something as well.

apaul

@Mithrandir There it is.

Cascabel

And it's really difficult to do more than deleting, because it's often completely new people coming in to do it. Suspensions don't stop it.

apaul

@Cascabel More often than not they're repeat offenders in the comments section.

Rory Alsop

15:59

@apaul posting a lightning rod - yeah, I can see no world where that would be a good idea, seriously.

Mithrandir

As soon as you want to raise something constructively, let us know. There are a lot of us who will support changing things for the better. When you just rant about things, people are less inclined to support you.

Rory Alsop

@apaul and repeat offenders get longer and longer suspensions

Cascabel

This is the awfulness of the world, manifested here. It's gonna happen. We have to try to deal with it.

apaul

@RoryAlsop Did it illustrate how wide spread the culture problem is?

Rory Alsop

@apaul no. It illustrated to various people that you were trying to cause trouble. Sorry, but that's what it did

apaul

16:00

@Cascabel And we could try a lot harder, but apparently that's a suspend-able offence.

Rory Alsop

@apaul nope. How you went about it is

apaul

@RoryAlsop True, it also did that.

Cascabel

@apaul There's more than one way to try

Rory Alsop

If you want to make change, it's best not to alienate those on your side

Cascabel

I tried too and I got meta upvotes instead of suspension.

apaul

16:02

@Cascabel Alrighty, you lead the charge after I'm gone, I'll check back and see if you're right.

Cascabel

Good grief. I'm not saying I can singlehandedly fix everything. I'm just saying that venting isn't getting us anywhere, and some other alternatives might make real progress.

2

apaul

@RoryAlsop It's often worthwhile to point out that those that claim to be "on your side" aren't, or aren't really making a visible impact on the problem.

Cascabel

@apaul And sometimes they are on your side.

Rory Alsop

@apaul no - you may not see the impact someone else is having, but that is no reason to call them out. They may be trying hard in their own space and you ranting at them may make them stop, or worse, actually take sides against you

apaul

@Cascabel When it's easy, and they don't have to rock the boat too much doing it.

Rory Alsop

16:05

@apaul no -that is really just elitism. Everyone is different, you cannot claim that you are doing more. Others may claim you are actually harming efforts for improvement, and their quieter work is more effective.

@apaul you honestly have no leg to stand on to claim others aren't trying. There are many here more than just you

apaul

@RoryAlsop We've tried the quiet approach for a long while. I'm not seeing improvement.

Cascabel

@apaul The fact that you have chosen a path involving upending the boat does not mean it's the only path.

8 mins ago, by Cascabel

And it's really difficult to do more than deleting, because it's often completely new people coming in to do it. Suspensions don't stop it.

apaul

@Cascabel I'm not upending the boat any longer, just made the problem visible, voiced descent and disappointment, and soon to be getting off the boat.

@Cascabel "More often than not they're repeat offenders in the comments section."

Rory Alsop

@apaul the problem was already visible. Voicing dissent is helpful. Leaving is okay, although it would be great if at some point in the future the community is in a state you fel it is fine to return to, but that is more likely if you don't launch WWIII as you leave :-)

2

apaul

@RoryAlsop Seems appropriate to make it clear why yet another top scoring user is leaving.

Cascabel

16:11

I'm explaining why there's a lot less improvement than any of us would like. Yes, I'm sure there are still repeat offenders, I also don't think the mods can safely implement a zero or minimal tolerance suspension policy here any more than in anything else. Keep flagging and let them do their jobs.

Rory Alsop

@apaul clarity is very different to ranting, and will have a very different effect

ranting will help those you say you are opposed to

4

apaul

@Cascabel It's pretty easy to argue that they haven't been doing their jobs. Given the opportunity to put a thumb on the scale and make things better they hold back.

The appearance of impartiality has allowed things to get this bad.

Cascabel

@apaul They've suspended people and deleted tons of stuff. Not suspending as many people as you wish isn't the same as holding back.

2

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: Only Hanging out = Friendship?

During the school days from the beginning itself I had a dominating (not like a boss like attitude, rather a leader kind of domination) over my friends. I respected everyone then and even now, and all of my friends respected me as well. Then we are here in college they remained in the college wh...

Mithrandir24601

Apr 14 at 0:25, by HDE 226868

This meta question has generated 80 moderator flags so far. That includes flags on comments and answers. There are 124 comments deleted there for various reasons.

apaul

16:16

@Cascabel Have they made a clear statement that bigotry isn't acceptable in this community?

Cascabel

If you think the only choice is for you to leave, then maybe just leave? You've made it very clear that you think no one's doing enough.

apaul

Or have they tried to play impartial third party?

Pheo

^^^?

Mithrandir24601

The mods of IPS appear to be putting a lot of effort in. That there isn't/wasn't enough of them is/was an issue, of course

Catija

@apaul To be honest, at this point we're just trying to keep our heads above water... so... maybe show some sympathy rather than complaining that we're failing at our jobs?

6

Cascabel

16:17

@apaul It's in the be nice policy which they have been enforcing with deletion and suspension. If you want an explicit announcement, I dunno maybe that'd help? But maybe you could just suggested that instead of venting over weeks about how no one but you cares?

Pheo

You guys are already on deletion of users?

apaul

@Cascabel I never said that "no one but me"

Cascabel

Stepping back, if you're gonna leave, maybe just leave? We get it, there's problems, you don't think enough has been done. Staying around just to vent more isn't adding anything.

apaul

I'm saying that until the community steps up in a more visible way, we're sending the message that some folks aren't really welcome here.

Cascabel

@apaul This is exactly the kind of disingenuous rhetoric often used by the folks you're fighting against. You've been lashing out at the community in general this whole time.

2

apaul

16:20

Because I've been disappointed and frankly appalled by how the community has handled things.

Cascabel

Yup. Message received.

apaul

@Cascabel Were you not?

Cascabel

And many others have been very tactfully telling you that they are disappointed in how you are handling the situation.

5

I think that much has been done, more can be done, and I am interested in working with people to try to do it.

If you're not interested in that, maybe let us spend our energy on trying to make things better instead of trying to convince you we care?

Pheo

@apaul How so? I think it is the fact that the topic of the site is something you are uncomfortable talking about.

apaul

Were you not disappointed by the rush of edits and comments that your meta post was about?

Pheo

16:24

Are you talking to me?

apaul

@Pheo no

Cascabel

I am overall unhappy about the state of affairs too, and often emotionally upset, but I understand that it's a difficult thing to improve, it's gonna take work, and the fact that it's this bad is more a reflection of the world than the community and mods. So yes, I want it to get better, but no, that doesn't mean I endorse your approach.

apaul

@Cascabel Thanks. So, you at least understand the why.

Cascabel

Of course I do, that's what we've been telling you, and why we're so disappointed to hear the implication that folks don't get it.

Rory Alsop

@apaul many people here do

apaul

16:29

Yes the approach is abrasive, that's intentional. From my experience with the site there's an awful lot of sweeping it under the rug. Basically if people don't talk about it, it isn't a problem. Till it happens again, and again, and again...

Pheo

@apaul I would just see something that could be improved.

Rory Alsop

@apaul it's intentional, you say - what you don't get is that it is a very bad way to help a community who are also working for the same aims understand you. In fact it pits them against you

don't do it that way, would be my strong guidance

apaul

Then show me a better way.

Pheo

@apaul I will. Hold on a sec...

Cascabel

I get that it's intentional and I still think you're both hurting a cause I care deeply about and you're sometimes breaking site rules, and so I don't much care for it.

Rory Alsop

16:32

@apaul don't be abrasive and tell people they aren't doing enough when they are trying hard already. Encourage them. Help moderate using the tools at your disposal. Don't be as big a controversy as those you oppose.

Pheo

@apaul Check this out: ai.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1341/… Just don't copy me. But the point is, you can help in ways like that.

Cascabel

@apaul Things like my meta answer and others'. Describing the issue without saying everyone's at fault for not fixing it, and talking about what can be done.

Anything but rage-quitting I guess?

apaul

@Cascabel So, silence is the price of peace. Don't react, don't engage, flag and walk away... Seems like we've been doing that since the site started and things haven't improved.

Rory Alsop

@apaul nope - neither I nor cascabel said that

flag, edit -> yes. Also write positive answers and comments. Be a role model for your cause.

Don't be quiet, just don't try and break the site rules in order to one-up bigots

apaul

@RoryAlsop Tried that.

Pheo

16:35

@RoryAlsop that meta name of mine is actually an old one.

@apaul show me the results.

Rory Alsop

@apaul keep trying. Help the mods. More mods will help now as well.

As @Catija said, it has been a serious struggle - this site needs more mods than your average tech site, and now they have some more

apaul

@RoryAlsop And continue to cooperate with a community that's been increasingly nasty... I'm not sure if that's a good idea.

Rory Alsop

@apaul most of the community is not nasty at all. So yes, cooperate with the community to help them stamp out bigots and nastiness.

Pheo

@apaul Why are they nasty? Are you sure that is not just your view? They seem nice from what I have seen.

Rory Alsop

don't tell the entire community they are nasty

I agree with what @Pheo said

like any community, the majority is good and wants to do the right thing

don't paint everyone with the brush that should be targeted for a tiny (but vocal) minority

apaul

16:39

@RoryAlsop I know you know what I meant by that...

Pheo

@apaul If you are going to say that people are nasty do it one person at a time, please. And don't call them out, or anything like that, just keep it to yourself.

Cascabel

@apaul Yeah I never said silence, and I fully understand that silence favors the privileged.

apaul

When I see a much larger contingency of people voting for the bigoted perspective, and very few people speaking up about it. That's "the community"

Cascabel

@apaul Go look at the voting on the meta about editing the race issues question again.

Rory Alsop

@apaul but that isn't what has been happening. Instead, there are lots of flags from the community helping to get posts destroyed, comments deleted, and individuals suspended and banned

Cascabel

16:42

There is strong voting on not-bigoted things.

apaul

That's why it's getting harder to find reasons to stick around.

Rory Alsop

@apaul so I don't see how you see that. It's just not what is happening at all!

apaul

@Cascabel Go look at the votes on the lightning rod again.

Pheo

@apaul If you want a place that is hard to stick around, try SO javascript chat room.

Rory Alsop

@apaul well - as you have made the decision to go, the best thing for those remaining who want to make improvements is that you don't make it harder for us

Pheo

16:43

Oh wait, thats my opinion. That doesn't apply to you.

Cascabel

@apaul That question was too broad, unclear, asked in bad faith, and on top of all that it was HNQ so it gets up votes but not down from outside regular community.

Rory Alsop

@apaul and as you know, you caused a lot of that problem. Deliberately... so I'm not sure that's a good example at all.

Mithrandir

@apaul The mods don't need to make a statement that bigotry isn't allowed. It's baked into a help center that it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to go read again.

apaul

@Mithrandir You seem to have missed that bigotry is common on the network. It may be in the help center, but it is still in fact a problem.

Mithrandir

Look. There's a problem. We haven't fixed all the problems. But we're working on fixing them. Perhaps not as quickly as you'd like or in exactly the same way as you'd prefer. But please respect the fact that there are people trying, all in their own way, to fix it. But being unconstructive is not going to help your case.

5

Cascabel

16:46

I'm running out of time for this, but for me personally the bottom line is that I'm member of a group you're trying to protect, and I know how ugly it would be for me if I gave folks the opportunity, and I still don't want tactics like yours being used to try to help me.

Pheo

@apaul Take a walk.

And get a snack.

Rory Alsop

@Pheo that comes across as rather rude as well, to be honest

let's not do that either

Pheo

Ok...

Rory Alsop

I know what you mean, the whole "take a break from the keyboard" thing, but phrasing...

apaul

Have any of you spent this kind of effort trying to convince bigots not to post as you've just spent trying to tell me not to respond, or to respond differently? That's a big piece of the problem here. If it does happen, I don't see it happening.

Rory Alsop

16:50

@apaul yes we have. Many of us.

Cascabel

Yup.

Rory Alsop

Have you thought about trying to work with the community instead of expending effort on lightning rods etc to annoy people?

Cascabel

Also the IPS mods have suspended people, soooo...?

And yeah, this is all kind of like saying, there are too many forest fires, I know what I'll do, I'll go set fire to the fire station and tell them they're not doing a good job firefighting, and to other people's houses and tell them they should be firefighters.

4

apaul

@RoryAlsop Who, where, when?

Rory Alsop

@apaul this is a problem - you imply that you are conducting a solo battle for good, while indirectly dismissing efforts from everyone else.

Mithrandir

16:52

@apaul All the people who spend time flagging stuff and trying to get stuff removed? Here on IPS? Every single day?

apaul

@Cascabel False equivalency? Effective as always.

@RoryAlsop I never claimed it was solo

Pheo

@apaul You are giving me deja vu.

Cascabel

@apaul You're saying that everyone else is doing nothing, or doing worthless things, and demanding proof if they want to say otherwise. Meanwhile you are actively dragging people down, deliberately creating drama.

Rory Alsop

@apaul the who where when comment implies it quite strongly

Catija

@apaul No... sounds about right to me. How are the mods supposed to focus on the actual problem users when we're busy fighting with our HIGHEST REPUTATION USER???

Cascabel

16:53

@apaul No analogy is perfect. But you are currently arguing with people who have spent a lot of energy trying to fix this stuff, taking spoons they could perhaps spend on making things better.

apaul

Just can't help but notice that the times I've stepped in on a trainwreck people are at best quietly flagging. And talking dismissively here in chat.

Pheo

@apaul I'm sorry.

Mithrandir

Quietly flagging as opposed to what? Engaging in arguments in the comments?

Cascabel

Besides mods, no one can actually do anything better than quietly flagging.

Mithrandir

The only thing that will achieve is more problems.

Quietly flagging is the recommended course of action.

Pheo

16:55

@apaul I have learned. But is seems you have not forgiven me.

apaul

@Cascabel That's where we part ways. if more users flatly said "Hey that sort of thing isn't welcome here" it would probably make a difference.

Cascabel

@apaul That's not what I've seen you do either, though.

Mithrandir

@apaul Getting your stuff deleted should get the point across that we don't want it fairly well.

Cascabel

But even "don't do that" with a notification tends to invite more drama, whereas deletion can entirely stop it.

Escalation makes things worse, not better.

Pheo

@apaul , @Catija @Tinkeringbell and @ArtOfCode have done that with me.

apaul

16:57

@Cascabel How long have you been around IPS?

Cascabel

Long enough to see plenty of comments from you that escalate, rather than put a stop to messes?

Pheo

Like right now.

Cascabel

Anyways, I'm about done with this for today.

Let's talk about how awesome Tiana is or something I guess?

Zachiel

I have a something to offer. No offense to Tiana.

Jesse

Speaking of reprimanding users... if a user is very regularly answering and each answer is being flagged low quality and there have been no improvements on existing posts or quality in the new posts that keep flooding out... at what point do does someone take them over for a private word to tell them to sharpen up their act?

Zachiel

17:01

(BTW, is there any way to turn that mind control machine into an equipment reliably? This might be the new Hanna)

Cascabel

@Jesse That's definitely something where it's fair game to custom-flag a single post and let mods deal

Zachiel

@Jesse I don't think it is necessary. Downvotes should bring the answer down.

Sid

I burnt my finger today. >.<

Pheo

On what?

Zachiel

(Unless we get to the level of PHP answers on the programming stacks, where low quality answers that provide suboptimal solutions are trusted and therefore upvoted by lots of users)

Sid

17:03

stupidly tried to lift a just-welded piece of block with only my fingers...

Pheo

Ouch.

Zachiel

Anyway, I'm trying to write a guestion and I think it might be too subjective or not so clear. Can you help me workshop it?

Ouch.

Cascabel

yay new questions!

Pheo

\o/

@Zachiel We will try our hardest.

Sid

My finger is all swollen and red. And it hurts..

Pheo

17:05

@Sid Did you put ice on it?

Sid

Yeah...

Pheo

Then just be comforted that if you hadn't you would be screaming right now.

@Sid M'kay?

Cascabel

(and to be clear I was fangirling more about Tiana the character than the card)

Sid

@Pheo I am internally screaming anyway...

Mithrandir

@Sid cold running water is better than ice

Pheo

17:09

(Not only can this room help you socially, :P they can also help you physically :P)

Sid

@Mithrandir You hardly get Cold running water in dorms here in the summer.

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel Fire away, or they'll keep talking medical advice ;)

Pheo

@Tinkeringbell *snort* :þ

Jesse

@Zachiel this is a helpful post regarding subjectivity in questions: stackoverflow.blog/2010/09/29/good-subjective-bad-subjective

Pheo

@Tinkeringbell we should stop with medical advice anyhow.

Zachiel

17:11

So, basically I'm organizing an event for everyone in a group, except one guy I can't trust to behave. I'd like to get some suggestions about what to do to defuse the situation but this is vague.

@Jesse got it

Pheo

@Zachiel play exploding kittens. BAM solves your problem. Also includes defuse cards.

Tinkeringbell

So you're not going to invite the guy? Exclude him? Is it about letting him know he's not welcome?

Jesse

@Zachiel yeah suggestions on what you can do is tough... try and decide for yourself first

Zachiel

@Pheo I know that game.

Pheo

;)

Jesse

17:13

@Pheo ahahah, havent played that in a while

Sid

@Zachiel "Defuse the situation?" What has the guy done?

Pheo

@Zachiel I'm kinda joking and serious at the same time.

Sid

Or are you talking about a hypothetical scenario in which your guy doesn't behave and you have to handle the situation?

Zachiel

@Tinkeringbell yes, it's about how to tell him, and how to prevent him from trying to promise that he will behave, for I know I can't take the risk that he (unwillingly) breaks the promise

Jesse

"difficult-people" would have a few fairly similar questions. I would maybe take a quick look for some pointers on what works with that sort of question

Zachiel

17:17

@Sid It's not about what the guy has done, is what about I'd had done in telling him not to come with us

Tinkeringbell

Might work... I'd say pick an asynchronous method of communication, like e-mail or something. That way, you don't have to reply immediately, or not at all ;-)

Do you know the guy personally? Do you have to talk in person? You can't really prevent him from trying, all you can do is make sure you're supported in this decision and keep saying 'no'...

Zachiel

@Tinkeringbell Let's do this, I'll post the question, and if it's bad it will go on hold. Just writing here in chat everying that's already in the question looks like just asking the question here ;)

Mithrandir

Sandboxing in chat is encouraged.

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel Just make sure to include at least whether you'll have to talk to in person, and the kind of method of communication you've picked... And indeed, sandboxing is what the room is actually for :)

Zachiel

Oh ok, then, I'll sandbox here

Pheo

17:21

@Zachiel then I have to welcome you.

@Tinkeringbell is it ok to welcome him? ;)

Zachiel

I'm a game master in a tabletop, live roleplaying game, and this is a guy I know in real life. I've been asked to play a game in public, but this guy curses way too much, and without much thought.

Pheo

@Raphiel welcome Zachiel

@Zachiel Hi! I am Raphiel! Please review the room rules. Please don't abuse me. I am still in testing, and wouldlike to live a long life without complications.

@Zachiel you are welcome here. Anyone is.

Zachiel

@Pheo I'm not sure if this is joking on a genuine will to welcome me or if it is some passive aggressive thing referencing the previous drama. You might need to work on your presentation ;)

Pheo

@Zachiel both. I think.

I will work on the presentation, tho.

Zachiel

I'm not sure* I want to engage in the drama, but thanks for being welcoming.
*read "I'm reasonably sure I don't want to take any part in it."

Tinkeringbell

17:30

@Zachiel That sounds like a reasonable reason for banning the guy. Especially if you've already tried to get him to stop (you have, haven't you?)

Pheo

@Zachiel Not referencing the drama but trying to retain a warm and positive appearance that was mentioned to be absent.

But lets stop talking about drama ;)

Zachiel

@Tinkeringbell I haven't. This kind of cursing is engrossed in the local culture. I don't practice it, but I don't play speech police.

Pheo

That just made it a lot more complicated.

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel Oh... well, that certainly makes for an interesting detail ;-)

Mithrandir

This reminds me of a question...

Pheo

17:31

Well, bye. See you guys later. @Tinkeringbell that is interesting...

Mithrandir

7

Q: How can I get the point across that what people are saying are swear words in English and is therefore offensive to me?

Here in Israel, most people don't realize that what they are saying is offensive to English speakers. People will regularly drop F-bombs and other such words. It's in music played publicly. (The twelve-year-old girls were dancing to music with a lot of foul language for a while.) I'm a native En...

language israel profanity

Zachiel

@Tinkeringbell I live in this weird place where basically everyone has been christened, but the local sport is insulting God and the Virgin Mary.

...in a way English can't even express

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel Well, if you haven't tried anything yet, and you're going to just plain out ban someone that does something that's generally not frowned upon.. that makes banning him a lot more difficult

Be sure to mention it though :)

Zachiel

@Tinkeringbell It's already in the question, along with some explaination of the fact that he isn't some madmen, but actually part of a very weird culture.

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel :D Sounds good :)

Zachiel

17:34

I wonder if such a thing happens somewhere else in the world...

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel It certainly doesn't sound familiar to me ;)

Pheo

@Zachiel At a population of around 7 billion I am sure there is something like it elsewhere.

Bye guys!

Zachiel

Bye

So, I have the premise and the details out, but I still haven't the question in my Question. I guess "What can I do to sweeten the pill" is too opinion based, for I think I've seen this kind of question already, with close votes.

And the obvious reply to "how can I enforce my decision?" is "be firm".

Is "should I tell him as I tell about the event to the group, or before" a good question?

Mithrandir

Eh...

Seems like a "what should I do" to me.

!!/alive

IPS Comment Bot

I'm alive and well :)

Zachiel

17:41

@Mithrandir that's the problem

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel good 'bad news conversations' are an Interpersonal Skill ;)

Mithrandir

"How do I approach telling someone that they are not invited to an event that I am having?"

@IPSCommentBot You've now been running for three months. Would anyone care to guess how many comments it's scanned during that time?

Zachiel

@Mithrandir That's a good title for sure. Meanwhile, let me add a little bit about mysoginy to the question... (yeah, the guy is a trainwreck)

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel Careful with the details though, that kind of words alone has often gotten people a bad response here ;-). Maybe better to mention the mysoginy but not give specific examples (same goes for the cursing)

ArtOfCode

@Mithrandir 19.7k

Tinkeringbell

17:46

I've seen that work best on other questions before.. like this one: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/6753/…

Cascabel

@Tinkeringbell well, if it's relevant context and can't be mentioned without drama, we kinda have to face that, yeah?

Mithrandir

@ArtOfCode a little lower

(also its got 140 inbox notifications o_o)

Cascabel

I do agree that just simply stating it as an issue is probably better, though I think I've tended to see "can you give specific examples?" responses to claims of misogyny before, so it's kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't thing.

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel Yes, we have ;) Just... See the question I linked above. It only mentions rants, but doesn't give any details on what exactly is considered a rant in this case... so mention mysoginy and cursing, but don't go explaining what was actually said :)

@Cascabel Yeah, I'm willing to slap those down with 'honor the premise please'

Zachiel

He calls female NPCs in our game with the usual degrading expletives, for no reasonable reason

brb

Cascabel

17:48

gross.

Mithrandir

@Zachiel yuck. Yeah that's worth mentioning

Cascabel

@Tinkeringbell Good good. And I assume they're strikes against people in some sense? Cause... it is certainly part of what makes it difficult for folks trying to deal with those issues.

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel Hm? against people?

I'm sorry, I don't really get where you want to go with that...

Cascabel

I'm not trying to demand any specific actions, I'm just trying to clarify that such things are in fact (subtle) Be Nice violations.

Tinkeringbell

@Zachiel It would be best to either just list the behaviors and don't put tags like misogyny on it, or just use the 'tags' and don't mention what kind of behavior exactly... I think. And it's fully based upon what I've seen and experienced here, questions that do either tend to go over a lot better...

Cascabel

17:54

It's not just that they're unnecessary requests for clarification, when they're disproportionately attracted by questions about sensitive topics.

ArtOfCode

@Mithrandir pssh, smokey has like 20k notifications

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel Oh sure, noted ;)

Cascabel

@Tinkeringbell Do you think that you like where the site ends up when we frame questions in this way? If the issue is, say, general anger management, the OP can mention it as context, while if it's misogyny they leave it out?

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel Hmmm... I think I would, seeing how the question I linked ended up, I think mentioning either the behavior or the name for the behavior works better than using both...

Cascabel

When I say "where the site ends up" I don't just mean in terms of avoiding drama on individual questions.

Mithrandir

17:58

@ArtOfCode 22106 to be precise

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel It sounds like you have a problem with the kind of writing style, although I'm not really sure what it is?

Catija

@Tinkeringbell If you use the tag for something without ever mentioning it in the question, people will not understand why the tag is there. It's much better to describe specific actions than to use the terms for it... this goes back to the very beginning of the site. interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/q/1384/36

Cascabel

Basically I'm saying that if people have to choose their words extremely carefully when talking about these topics, to the point that they often end up giving less clear context than they would on other questions, then that's not a great result.

And I know it's somewhat unavoidable, but placing the burden on the OP when it's others who are causing drama in comments is unfortunate.

@Catija I of course like Shog's post there a lot.

Catija

It's a great post.

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel Still, it is what the meta Catija linked to seems to suggest as well: Explain yourself instead of using the tag... Don't call people misogynistic, describe their actions... I think the problem arises when people do both.

Cascabel

18:04

@Tinkeringbell You actually suggested using the label without the specifics, I think?

Tinkeringbell

The example question I linked might not have been best, since it only uses the label, but I've seen that work too...

Cascabel

I don't think Shog is saying there to leave relevant things out because they might upset people.

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel Who said I'm suggesting leaving relevant things out?

If that's what you've been getting from me, than I've probably not been expressing myself clearly enough. Sorry

Cascabel

Paring down to only a label often means that.

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel I specifically always mentioned both: Label or description. The meta seems to suggest that instead of label, description is more preferred.

The question I linked shows that label works fine on it's own too, there was no drama in the comments as far as I can recall about not having the details

Cascabel

18:06

Ok. This started with "Careful with the details though, that kind of words alone has often gotten people a bad response here" so maybe I have misunderstood.

Tinkeringbell

@Cascabel That had another sentence behind it, and when I found the link to the question, that's one message down too

Cascabel

ok.

I think I would still feel pretty hamstrung if I were trying to ask, fwiw.

as a non-mod it's hard to take end states as indications of lack of drama, also. I have to assume there's deleted comments.

Catija

~20

(on that xenophobia one)

Cascabel

thanks!

Catija

... but I've found that xenophobia isn't really in the same realm of reactionary content as things like race and gender... so I'm not sure it's even a fair comparison considering that.

Cascabel

18:13

Oof.

Yeah I guess my impression was that you get a boatload if you touch the topics no matter what, especially if HNQ, so you might as well just include what you think is necessary, avoid really unnecessary judgment, and accept your fate.

Zachiel

Back.

Tinkeringbell

@Catija Wasn't that posted around the time where we had a few about race that went horribly wrong?

Catija

I don't... think... so? But I've been trying to deal with small fires for so long, they all blend together.

The difficulty in tying a name to an action is that people may start arguing "that's not really X"... which I think is maybe where the concern is. But arguing over whether something is or is not X is beside the point and should just be removed from the comments... they're usually comments, not answers.

The problem for me is when people use a term and don't describe the situation... and then you get a day or two into it and some details finally come out and... while they may still think the term fits... the actions really aren't problematic. And some of that is cultural and some of that is two people with differing expectations. Like the person with the rude cashier...

Cascabel

really good point

Catija

To the OP, the cashier was being rude... but to the cashier and everyone else in line, the OP was the rude party - holding up the line in a busy cafe.

Cascabel

18:23

Of course, the second-guessing that was reasonable there is often entirely out of line on sensitive topics :/

Catija

Yes, very true. The top answer there is probably very well-phrased and a good way of pointing out the full situation... but when you're in a situation where someone feels harassed or attacked for, say, racial or religious reasons... telling them that they've misinterpreted what happened... not necessarily the best option.

Extroverted Main Man

18:45

1

Q: How do I tell my roommate that I feel treated unfairly by their SO?

I have a roommate I allowed to sublet with me. I have allowed their SO to move in with them. Currently I'm not receiving rent from the roommate, and that's an entirely different problem of my own creation, because I had them leave their previous job for an opportunity we ended up getting left han...

friends

apaul

19:00

@Catija Hmm... Seems like that might apply elsewhere...

Zachiel

0

Q: How do I approach telling someone that they are not invited to an event that I am having?

I'm part of a tabletop RPG (roleplaying game) group, and I also happen to be the host, the organizer and the game master (read: the one who runs the game) of our weekly games. I got asked to help organizing some RPG event for a local comics and games fair, and one of the ideas was to bring my lo...

public-issues invitations acceptable-behavior

Asked

Pheo

@Zachiel DM?

Zachiel

19:19

@Pheo Have I used DM in the question? I don't think so. Yes, I'm a D&D DM.

Oh, hello @Ash

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How do I approach telling someone that they are not invited to an event that I am having?

I'm part of a tabletop RPG (roleplaying game) group, and I also happen to be the host, the organizer and the game master (read: the one who runs the game) of our weekly games. I got asked to help organizing some RPG event for a local comics and games fair, and one of the ideas was to bring my lo...

public-issues invitations acceptable-behavior

Pheo

LOL

Zachiel

Ah, yes, I'm faster than the channel bot. No great news :)

Pheo

I think it is on a delay.

Tinkeringbell

@Pheo Scheduled task is more likely

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

19:27

@Zachiel SE chatbots are HUGE slackers

Pheo

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ hey, watch it.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Pheo commands

Catija

It's scheduled... and the main site one runs more often than the meta site does.

Pheo

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I don't understand what you mean. If you are trying to get my chatbot to list commands, that is not the right command or invocation pattern.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Nvm

Pheo

19:30

Don't think you have seen Raphiel

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Pheo my joke wasn't about Raphiel, I actually thought you were joking

Eh, moving on

Pheo

LOL sorry.

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@Mith looking good, did you get a tan?

Pheo

:|

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

20:36

. . .

This silence isn't awkward, but staring at the screen probably is.

Unless my awkwardometer is broken

Oh hey another living, breathing thing

apaul

Nope

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@apaul you're not breathing? You might need CPR

Extroverted Main Man

22:44

0

Q: How to hide panic attacks?

I frequently have panic attacks when talking to my friends, do what I perceive as them ganging up on me, in accordance to what they have done in the past, and when they are specifically excluding me from interacting with them do to me accusing them of things which they later did admit to doing. T...

friends anxiety

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