The Awkward Silence

Tinkeringbell

15:09

→ 3 messages moved to trash

Jesse Barnett

@Tinkeringbell i wouldnt mind talking about your comment interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2508/…

Tinkeringbell

@JesseBarnett Sure, what's up ;)

Jesse Barnett

close-vote, that always means the question is unuseful, unclear or does not show any research effort

do you mean that ^^?

Tinkeringbell

Yep, I have yet to see one where it wasn't the case.

Jesse Barnett

i mean, what about perfectly well written, just off topic

Tinkeringbell

15:19

Unuseful.

Jesse Barnett

or they end it in a broad way

no... there is a difference

Tinkeringbell

unuseful, until/unless edited

Jesse Barnett

I don't think that is what is meant by 'useful'

Rainbacon

I agree with Tinkeringbell here. Any question that is off-topic for IPS is unuseful to IPS

Jesse Barnett

just because it doesn't work with our requirements does not mean it is not useful. Rather than downvoting a well written and well thought out question that is just not quiiite the way we need it... we should close vote and close vote only because it IS useful

Tinkeringbell

15:21

@JesseBarnett How is it useful?

Because I don't think that is meant by 'useful'

What's your definition of useful here?

seems like we have different ones

Anne Daunted

@JesseBarnett So an excellent question for Stack Overflow, that would make Jon Skeet's mouth water, would be useful on IPS.SE?

Tinkeringbell

Old blog post, but very helpful, from the privileges page: stackoverflow.blog/2011/06/13/optimizing-for-pearls-not-sand ... if the question is unlikely to produce good answers, a downvote is apparently encouraged

Jesse Barnett

@AnneDaunted An excellent question that doesn't work on IPS may not be useful for our site. But i think that it should be clear we are not talking about useful for the site... but instead useful for a person

an excelent question may be very useful for someone reading it

but if it doesnt fit on IPS we should close or move it

not downvote it because then people will think that its not a useful question

but it is. it just belongs somewhere else

Tinkeringbell

Sorry, but the downvotes are on the post, and the post is written for SE. So, yeah, if it doesn't fit this stack, it's unuseful.

Not downvoting it will lead to problems.. such as people finding it on the front page and answering in comments.

Jesse Barnett

I do not think that was the intent of the words "not useful" in the help section

Anne Daunted

15:26

Downvoting -> Vanish from main site -> Avoids answers before it gets closed

Tinkeringbell

I think I already had to slap the 'don't answer in comments' comment on every question posted today... And I'm not even acting on the meta I wrote yesterday, I am still only posting after seeing aic's

Jesse Barnett

this is vigilante behaviour :D breaking the rules and abusing the system for its own benefit.

Tinkeringbell

No... it's actually what's encouraged all over SE. If a post is unuseful, lacking detail or research effort, you can downvote.

Why else put that there when you hover over the downvote button?

Jesse Barnett

You are using an alternative interpretation of "useful" to justify using the button for a purpose it was not made for

it may help the site, but thats not the point

if downvotes were for off topic questions then it would say

Anne Daunted

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

►

Jesse Barnett

15:31

shut down by the dude

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. You don't have to downvote if you don't want to, but I am going to step up my downvoting because I'm seeing too little of it.

@JesseBarnett What, downvote if this question is <list of all close-reasons the site has>?

'unuseful' sums that up quite nicely ;)

Jesse Barnett

that is ridiculous

@Tinkeringbell is out for blood

Anne Daunted

If it's off topic here, how do we know whether it's a good fit for another site?

Jesse Barnett

duplicate questions can be close voted. and this one i know we should not be downvoting

just leave it at 0

Anne Daunted

E. g. there was once an off topic question that may have been migrated to TWP. High rep users from there noted that it would also be off topic there and get closed

Jesse Barnett

15:35

then it gets closed and never migrated

leave it at 0 votes

just because it doesnt belong doesn't mean it can't ever be useful

Anne Daunted

@JesseBarnett no, that's exactly what it means

that's why we have different sites and not one big for everything

Jesse Barnett

@AnneDaunted so in a world where everyone is actively voting in the way you are describing. An amazing question gets asked but it doesn't belong anywhere and gets very heavily downvoted. Then the perfect stack for it gets opened and it gets migrated but never seen because it was soooo "unuseful"

Tinkeringbell

@JesseBarnett Closed questions do get cleaned up, why would they do that, if not because they are unuseful?

Jesse Barnett

but wait no... the question was useful

Tinkeringbell

@JesseBarnett I don't think you can wait for the perfect stack to be opened. By that time, the question will be too old to migrate anyways, since there's a time limit to how long that can be done

Jesse Barnett

15:38

leave it for the relevant stack to up or downvote after it gets migrated

Tinkeringbell

@JesseBarnett I don't think votes get migrated as well, but I'll have to check that.

Anne Daunted

What would be the use of having the IPS page cluttered with "amazing" math and programming and whatnot questions, all closed and with a score of 0?

Jesse Barnett

@AnneDaunted so that they can be properly migrated

Anne Daunted

If there is no stack for it, then so be it. There are other sites on the Internet, too. At least last time I checked.

Jesse Barnett

@AnneDaunted that was one example. there are also plenty that do have stacks for them

votes and comments carry over

Cashbee

15:41

The destination question's score is reset to zero if the origin question had a negative score. Otherwise, its score is retained, and the votes are attributed to the Community user.

Jesse Barnett

@Cashbee ahhhhhh thanks

Anne Daunted

@Cashbee Thanks for settling the issue!

Jesse Barnett

thats not so bad

Cashbee

111

A: What is migration and how does it work?

What is migration? Migration allows an off-topic question to be gracefully moved to another site in the Stack Exchange network. It preserves the current revision of the question, all its answers, any comments on any post, as well as most of the votes. When a question is migrated, a new copy of ...

no problemo mes amigos

Jesse Barnett

well at least there is a fall back/fail safe for migrated questions

but I reject the statement that "any reason for being close-voted by default means the question is not useful and should be downvoted"

Tinkeringbell

15:46

@JesseBarnett, look at it this way: I never saw one of those questions you mentioned, one of those that were so perfect that could be migrated to another site. You might want to ask one of the mods, but I don't think there was ever a question migrated FROM ips to another site. I did see a few incoming ones, usually in bad shape.

So, please read my comment as 'Until now, that has always meant'

I'll repost a clarified comment, just a sec.

Jesse Barnett

migrating isnt the only issue though, i think all of the reasons are distinctly seperate from being "unuseful"

being broad, on topic or a dup or not should not impact how useful it is

Anne Daunted

If they wrote the perfect question for a specific site, why would they end up posting it on the wrong one?

Tinkeringbell

( I gotta run now, if you want to talk about this later, lemme know and we can pick it up once I see you in chat again )

Cashbee

@JesseBarnett I have to agree with Jesse here. If a question should be closed for any reason, it should be closed. It should have nothing to do with downvotes.

Tinkeringbell

@Cashbee And if a question is unuseful, unclear of lacking research effort, it should be downvoted.

You can't deny they often (if not always) go hand in hand

Jesse Barnett

15:51

@Tinkeringbell but usually we would closevote in hopes that they fix the issue

Cashbee

@Tinkeringbell no that's what I'm trying to say. They should not be downvoted, only VTC'ed. Then after there were some edits made, reopen. Now it doesn't have negative score.

Jesse Barnett

downvotes should not be a commentary on this: "not meant as a substitute for communication and editing"

@Cashbee agreed

close-vote stops the question and highlights a key issue in the hope that it will encourage OP to edit it. down-votes are to show that it is bad content

Shog9

@Tinkeringbell just to be clear: I didn't say the site was meant to be squishy. But it's going to be regardless, because folks really suck at identifying context.

A subjective question is one where the correct answer depends on the reader. Most questions don't have to be subjective, but if you leave out so many details that answerers have to fill them in... Then you're gonna tend toward a bunch of answers that don't apply in a lot of contexts but may apply in some

This is possible for any topic, but some topics make it a lot easier simply because of how much context is relevant.

"Mayo or butter on a ham sandwich?" is subjective on a personal level. "Mayo or butter on ham sandwiches for the church group supper?" is objective if you know the location and local culture

Anne Daunted

They are vegans.

Catija

Or kosher.

Shog9

15:58

But as long as folks really want to ask questions where the answer depends heavily on context and leave out that context... Those questions are gonna be squishy.

Look at all of those answers to that "ask out cashier" question that brought me here - all those folks saying, essentially, "hey, I hit on service workers all the time and it works out GREAT!"

They aren't necessarily lying. But even if honest, their situation almost certainly doesn't match the OPs.

The example I gave DH was easy: "what's 5/2?"

The context there is still missing: what base are we operating in, integer division, etc.

But, it's easy enough to identify that & get the asker to clarify.

When the context covers everything from "are you able to make smalltalk?" to "what's the local reaction to conversations in queues?", folks just give up and go back to what they know.

Which is borderline worthless.

But, that's the lay of the land

Catija

I think that part of the problem... and maybe this is sidetracking things... is that we have an ongoing battle between people asking for more information to make the question more objective and between people who just want to answer the questions.

Shog9

@Catija yup. TWP has this same problem. Heck, every site has it to some extent, but I use TWP because they're probably the closest in terms of "tons of implicit context" questions.

Shut the question down until it is clear...

Or... Accept that this is an Agony Aunt site and not one for actually helping people.

Catija

We have so many questions that yo-yo back and forth between being closed and opened because there's no agreement on what is enough information to make a question answerable.

But I don't know how to solve that.

Shog9

That thread on meta with a ton of concrete examples for X Y Z questions is a good start.

Teach people to recognize patterns.

Look, it took TWP something like 2 years to even get a start on this.

It took Stack Overflow well over a year.

When I joined SO one of the highest-voted answers on the site was "read 'How to Make Friends and Influence People'"

On Stack Overflow. The programming site.

Folks love them some squishy questions.

Anyway, I gotta run; just wanted to clarify that bit.

Jesse Barnett

idk. encouraging people to immediately shut down questions they think don't think clearly explain the context is a bit of a slippery slope because of the different interpretations of required context

Catija

16:09

When this site first started I seriously asked what people thought about all questions being "closed" when they were first asked here.

Jesse Barnett

what did they say?

hell no?

totally different issue, @Catija do you have any input on whether or not the reasons for close-votes make questions inherently not useful and should therefore be down-voted

Catija

I think what Shog's just finished saying is that, if we just want to answer questions, we don't want to be a squishy site (which I'd rather we weren't) we need information that will help restrict the possible answers to any given question. Even objective sites have to do this... It's the difference between "what is the answer in situation x" vs "what are all of the possible answers in situation y"...

@JesseBarnett The response was "that could be interesting".

Cashbee

@Catija that's my answer too. And I think it could actually work as long as there is no extreme growth in Qs per day, and as long as there are enough ppl looking at the new-questions-queue

Catija

@JesseBarnett I don't tend to close vote and down vote unless there's something blatantly wrong with the question that I don't think can be fixed. I don't have any data, but - personally - I'd feel pretty disinclined to improve a question if the first attempt at asking it was downvoted.

@Cashbee And there are ways to limit it... it could only affect users with under 200 reputation, for example.

Cashbee

@Catija sounds good to me, you have my vote

upvote that is :)

Jesse Barnett

16:14

Wouldn't auto-closing lower the usefulness of closing a question? It would be far less clear to question writers whether their question had just yet to go through panel or if it has something wrong with it. Good questions can still get controversial comments

Catija

@JesseBarnett They wouldn't be "closed" they'd be in a state that required review before allowing people to answer them. Essentially, it would give the users the opportunity to vet the question before anyone could answer it.

In relation to downvoting, here's a MSO answer I wrote yesterday that links to an MSE answer I wrote a few weeks ago: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/364351/…

Jesse Barnett

and if rejected in the state of review... does it then become closed? or does it remain in this limbo?

Catija

It'd be in the same state as anything... a few days of being "on hold" with a notice that the question needs improvement and (hopefully) explanation from the users as to what needs to change for the question to be acceptable.

Jesse Barnett

@Catija that meta is yet another incentive to hold off the down-votes until after the question has been closed and edited

@Catija ahh, then I do still think that it would de-value the act of closing a question. How is OP to know if the comments are just comments, or agreed upon requirements for the question to be opened.

going from open to closed signals that there is an issue. Starting off, and then remaining closed leaves it slightly more ambiguous

Catija

It's an example of what people tend to want to do rather than improve their question. One of the things that's important to remember... while we're improving this site, we need to remember that there are people on the other end of things... and while closing and down voting aren't personal, they are often taken as such. That's not to say they shouldn't be done... but that we need to temper them with help - links to meta, explanations of what is wrong with the question.

@JesseBarnett That's why we need a good bank of Meta links that we can provide that will address the specific needs of this site.

Cashbee

16:21

@JesseBarnett It's not so ambiguous anymore after someone made a comment about what could be improved in the Q, just like we do now

Catija

No... there's a difference in that the terminology would be different. The main effect of the initial question status would be that the question could not be answered but could otherwise be edited, commented on, etc... It'd be a proto-question.

Jesse Barnett

@Cashbee will we limit comments to only those with close-vote privileges? How does OP distinguish between a comment that just disagrees or questions a certain thing and a comment highlighting the reason it is still closed?

Catija

If the question was determined to be insufficiently detailed, it could be actually voted closed or, if a good fit for the site, it would be voted out of the proto-question status.

Jesse Barnett

so it does become "true" closed

Catija

At this point, I think it's interesting to think about but unlikely to ever be implemented.

Jesse Barnett

16:25

still being able to close or re-close or true-close or however you call it with the listed reason it is closed would fix the main issues I could see with implementing this

Catija

Sure. :)

NVZ

17:14

...

@ Catija What's a proto-question?

Tinkeringbell

@Cashbee If it gets reopened, votes can be reversed. I do vote responsibly and check for that.

NVZ

Votes can be reversed, but not always done so.

Tinkeringbell

@Shog9 Sorry for missing class again, and thanks for clarifying. It's sorta nice to know there's not much that can be done against soft and squishy, that makes my decision a lot easier... I'll stop fighting it and try to go with the flow for a while, and if that doesn't work for me, I'll leave the site without further disrupting it.

NVZ

I wonder why people talk of leaving the site.

Tinkeringbell

@NVZ If you still have to ask, you certainly haven't been paying attention lately.

NVZ

17:22

@Tinkeringbell I was on a trip to grandma's place. What happened today?

Tinkeringbell

Not just today, the drama has been there for a few weeks already.

NVZ

If I may, who are the main users involved?

Tinkeringbell

Just check meta

NVZ

@Tinkeringbell I'm all caught up on meta. I see nothing outstandingly dramatic. It's all business as usual.

Tinkeringbell

Well, then have fun.

NVZ

17:25

That is confusing. Earlier today you said something about "go and have chocolate", and now "go have fun". Is it some slang I don't understand?

Catija

@Tinkeringbell What part of what he said gave you the impression that nothing can be done? He said that it's taken sites a few years to get to the point that they really realized that something needed to be done and act on it... but he didn't say that it's inevitable and you should get used to it.

NVZ

@Tinkeringbell Friend to friend.. Meta discussions and policy making involves some drama, always. It's nothing to leave the site for.

Tinkeringbell

2 hours ago, by Shog9

@Tinkeringbell just to be clear: I didn't say the site was meant to be squishy. But it's going to be regardless, because folks really suck at identifying context.

NVZ

@Catija Hey, Catija. Quick question. What does "proto-question" mean in your earlier msg?

Catija

@Tinkeringbell ... and then he goes on to explain what would need to happen to prevent that...

@NVZ It means nothing. It's not a thing. If you read the rest of the discussion, it should be clear.

NVZ

17:29

@Catija Thanks.

Tinkeringbell

@Catija Yeah, it's easy to make lists of what needs to happen, but regardless of that it's going to be squishy. Because there's no way to make it happen

NVZ

I really need to learn more. What's squishy referring to now?

Catija

What's the number one rule of IPS... you can't make other people do anything... right?

2

Tinkeringbell

Apparently everyone knows what needs to happen, because there have been squishy sites before... and apparently no one is willing to make it happen..

Exactly, so if people are unwilling I can't make em.

Neither can you

Nor can Shog

NVZ

Eww... Squishy is such an eww word for me. It's right next to moist.

Catija

17:33

@Tinkeringbell "no one" is a bit much.

Tinkeringbell

@Catija Well, I'll just patiently wait until the second coming then...

NVZ

Shog can do things no others can. Shog is powerful.

Tinkeringbell

Really, maybe I'm just in too bad a mood right now to discuss this..

Catija

I think that you may need to consider... this site is brand new. It's hard. It's easy to write answers to the questions that are broad and undefined because we can make them the question we want to be. People like that. That doesn't mean we as a site have to accept that view.

Tinkeringbell

I'll go ;)

Catija

17:35

We can't expect all of our problems to be solved now. TWP took two years to get there. We've only been doing this for 8 months...

NVZ

@Catija That will change once Professor X signs up. He definitely can make others do things.

Catija

If you go at the problem with "this needs to change now"... you're going to fail.

So, if you want to fail... go ahead.

@NVZ Really not helping right now.

NVZ

Sorry.

I used to be this fun-loving user here. Nowadays it seems everyone here is all too serious. Perhaps it's me who should leave. :(

Catija

We have site policy that specifically prohibits answers in comments. That doesn't prevent them... all it does is give us the ability to remove them and point at the policy and say "this is what we decided".

The same thing can be done here... the problem is, when a question has "enough" info... is complicated and can't really be dictated with a strict set of rules and a whip.

@NVZ There's a time for fun... this is an attempt at a serious discussion...

NVZ

The seriousness I see is that some users are too deeply attached to the site. It is not gonna go well.

Meta discussions, exchange of ideas, some minor drama... these are business as usual.

Catija

17:42

Users being invested is good... we need that. Without it, this site will fail. Yes, there's a point where you need to step back and understand that, for the time being, this is what we have. We can't turn the corner immediately and expect everyone to toe the line...

Rainbacon

@NVZ I don't see users being deeply attached to the site as a bad thing, nor do I think users can be too deeply attached.

Like Catija said, user investment is a good thing

We just have to properly temper our expectations of the site to know that we can't always immediately fix problems

NVZ

@Rainbacon There's a saying. Too much of a good thing is bad. IPS is a good thing. Being involved in the site-keeping is a good thing. It's when people get overly attached to certain discussions that things turn sour.

@Rainbacon Yeah, I am active on the site. It's good to be a part of this amazing experience.

@Rainbacon Yes, true.

@Rainbacon I know of certain users who flew too close to the sun. Trust me. I'm not gonna drop names. It's entirely possible for someone to get overly attached to the site policy-making that they'll expect others to follow their path.

Rainbacon

@NVZ I think we're interpreting the word "attached" differently. I was thinking more of being attached as caring for the site and wanting it to be successful. It seems like your definition is more akin to being set on what the rules are and averse to them changing. Does that seem correct?

NVZ

@Rainbacon Yeah. I think I fall under the first category you mention. I care for the site. But I am not hell-bent on getting people to join my ideas.

Rainbacon

17:57

Ok, that makes a lot more sense than when I thought we were using the same definition

NVZ

I like the animation of usernames flying in and out of the room. Haha. Kudos to whoever designed it.

TheTinyMan

I like the faded names, too. Someone just called me out for lurking in another room. :-P

NVZ

@TheTinyMan Confession. I lurk on rooms without signing in. LOL

ArtOfCode

I thought everyone did that?

NVZ

What? The secret trick is now public?

I'm in fact watching myself from an incognito tab now.

TheTinyMan

18:03

How many spies are now among us?? :o

ArtOfCode

at least 4.7

NVZ

The other tab tells me "You must be logged in to talk. See the faq for more information."

@ArtOfCode That's a pretty precise number. :P

TheTinyMan

wildly eyes every div, every character on his screen Th...they're everywhere!

ArtOfCode

@NVZ sorry I forgot the "million" on the end

NVZ

@TheTinyMan Have no fear. NVZ is here.

Crafter0800

18:12

It's been a while since I've been here - it's nice to see the same old face here again ^.^

I'm sorry I dissapeared, but I needed some time away from SE for a while - hopefully I can continue to be of use to you all to help this SE get off the ground :D

NVZ

@Crafter0800 Hey!

Crafter0800

o/

NVZ

@Crafter0800 A lot of things have happened while you were gone. A LOT!

Crafter0800

oh good lord - such as? xD

NVZ

@Crafter0800 Where do I start? Haha. Perhaps it might be better to go thru the meta.

Crafter0800

18:18

Alright - will start skimming through it - are there anything in paticular I should 100% not miss?

NVZ

@Crafter0800 Try starting with interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/scope

Vitas 7th Element 2002

►

Extroverted Main Man

18:43

2

Q: Offering to ride along with women when it's dark

When growing up my brother and I where taught that, when it's night, you should offer girls/women to ride along when you are on bike or on foot to prevent unsafe situations. This wasn't saying that women aren't able to stand up for themselves but that there are some creeps out there. If you're no...

Crafter0800

19:05

It's been a while - just to check how do I ask for a tag to be renamed? Do I post in meta with the tag "feature-request"?

sphennings

That's what I'd do to start

Rainbacon

@Crafter0800 As far as I know that's how you do it

Crafter0800

okay cool thanks

spiral succulent

19:23

@Crafter0800 nice answer

Crafter0800

Thank you :)

Introverted Meta Man.

1

Q: Renaming of the tag [netherlands] to [the-netherlands]

Coming across the tag being called "Netherlands" thew me, as I always refer to that country as "The Netherlands". Asking a few dutch friends (perhaps half a dozen or so) they all agreed that their country should be referred to as "The Netherlands" rather than just "Netherlands" in English. This i...

feature-request

Extroverted Main Man

19:48

0

Q: How to handle false statements being propagated and SO ghosting

There's two issues, my SO ghosted on me while upset and avoiding uncomfortable conversations, and a former friend is spreading lies about me. Is there any real way to overcome this? The shortest way to explain would be the simple timeline of: Mutual friend of SO leans on me (as many of my fri...

relationships non-verbal-communication

0

Q: How to react to accidentally calling someone the wrong name

We've all been there, weather it's because they have a similar name, you've had someone else on your mind, or you just are tired and slipped up. It's always horrible calling a friend the wrong name (even worse when it's the same of someone you both know). How should I respond or deal with callin...

online-interaction instant-messaging mistakes

spiral succulent

21:58

The SO ghosting question is tough

https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11630/how-to-handle-malicious-false-statements-by-someone-in-your-peer-group#comment46538_11630

https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11630/how-to-handle-malicious-false-statements-by-someone-in-your-peer-group#comment46539_11630

Am I right in these comments about issues with the post and potential solutions?

Transcript for