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Extroverted Main Man
Extroverted Main Man
12:25 AM
0
Q: Active listening in casual conversation: why does it not work?

BelleI’m on the spectrum. Language doesn’t always come as naturally to me as to others. I often have a need to confirm I understand the conversation partner, for which I use active listening techniques like paraphrasing and questioning. I noticed that often neurotypical conversation partners seem to t...

conversations autism-spectrum
 
 
6 hours later…
Ælis
Ælis
6:40 AM
@ExtrovertedMainMan @Belle Insomnia? Is everything ok?
 
Ælis
Ælis
7:13 AM
@ExtrovertedMainMan According to Wikipedia (who is lacking a source): "It may also be used in casual conversation or small talk to build understanding, though this can be interpreted as condescending." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_listening#Use
 
avazula
avazula
7:35 AM
@ArthurHavlicek I juste read your answer. I think it provides interesting information, but it lacks mentions of your personal experience regarding similar matters to me. Could you maybe include an example of a situation where you wanted something and the other didn't seem ready (or vice versa)?
 
Belle
Belle
7:57 AM
@Ælis I hope it’s not insomnia. That’s the worst. Starting to look like it, though.
Nice find!
 
JAD
JAD
8:16 AM
@Ælis it sounds a bit like it can come across like an interrogation, especially in casual conversation
 
Ælis
Ælis
@JAD Yeah, that's my thoughts too, but I am not sure how I could back that up (that is why I was looking for an external link)
@Belle I'm sad it isn't backed up :/ But thanks
@Belle Hopefully it was just a "one-night insomnia" and you will be able to sleep fine tonight
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
8:36 AM
@avazula Well I could relate to the fact I can think of people as being something (not ready for example) but truly the problem was on my side, would that be appropriate? Given that I'm frame challenging here a bit, i.e. I don't think communicating judgement to people is constructive
Maybe I could back that up yea, it seemed too obvious to need one but reading back there is some assumptions made there
 
avazula
avazula
@ArthurHavlicek Depends on said example but I think it could be good, indeed. The goal is not to judge OP (or anyone else) but explain why what you're offering would work (better). That applies to frame challenges too: if you think OP shouldn't try to achieve their goal, we need to know why you think that's not a good idea.
@ArthurHavlicek Given the multiple cultural backgrounds and life experiences of our user base, there's no thing like "obvious" :) I know it's tempting to say so, but we need to remember we all are very different and what seem crystal clear to us might not be for others.
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
I agree completely and thank you for looking improvements on something that could look already OK at first glance :)
 
avazula
avazula
My pleasure! It's always great to have people being interested in IPS :)
 
Magisch
Magisch
morning
 
avazula
avazula
8:52 AM
Heya!
 
Magisch
Magisch
how's everyone today?
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
@avazula I edited the answer slightly.
 
avazula
avazula
@ArthurHavlicek I ... just realized we weren't talking about the same answer. I'm sorry! I meant the question about the couple with the baby project and one absolutely wants a child but doesn't seem ready to the other
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
well then we do speak about the same answer :O
 
avazula
avazula
... confusing noises
okay, Idk what happened, but now I see your edit
 
Ælis
Ælis
9:15 AM
@Magisch I'm frustrated. I don't like people applying for mod last minute. I had already made up my mind and then I had to do it again ><
 
avazula
avazula
That's nice you included that personal backup, thanks. Did NVC help in resolving the issues you mention?
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Ælis mhm
 
avazula
avazula
@Ælis tbf we knew for days (on TWP and in TWC) that they were gonna run. I understand how that may be confusing for people who aren't in here as often though.
 
Magisch
Magisch
darkcygnus said at the start of the nom period that he planned to run but was busy at work
 
Ælis
Ælis
Seems fair then. It kind of reminded me about how someone run last minute on IPS and it pissed me off (because they weren't active anymore)
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
9:22 AM
@avazula With NVC you don't have the initial issue. It's not solving once done it's helping preventing by eliminating judgement.
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Ælis FWIW I think dark cygnus too would be a viable choice for mod in the election
 
avazula
avazula
@ArthurHavlicek I see your point
 
Magisch
Magisch
I hold on to my comment yesterday that there would be no outright bad outcome
 
Ælis
Ælis
@Magisch Yeah, they do seem like a solid candidate
Also, thanks for sharing your opinions with me :)
 
 
2 hours later…
Belle
Belle
11:19 AM
So annoying when the post makes a mistake and you have to deal with the webshop to get a refund. It's not their fault.
I try to see it as their risk of webshop business when I'm asking them for the refund, but it still feels a bit wrong.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Ugh, yeah... but as the sender they're the only ones that can complain I think, because they 'made the contract' with the post?
 
Belle
Belle
PostNL will tell you that's how it is, but that's not true. Both sides are allowed to complain and request help at finding the package.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Hmm. Seems weird to me, as in my mind it was always me > webshop > PostNL when we're talking e.g. paying for postage.

so I don't directly pay PostNL to send something for me, so I don't get refunds :/
 
Belle
Belle
You're still entitled to their cooperation as the receiver, because you're a party in the contract. You can't request a refund of the shipping costs from PostNL because you didn't pay them, which the webshop can. The webshop is also responsible for delivering your item, so should refund you or send a replacement when it's not arriving.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Yep... hence why I personally never feel bad requesting a webshop to solve undelivered items ;)
 
Belle
Belle
11:30 AM
I really don't have enough spoons to call PostNL today, though, so the webshop can deal with them. I want either my item or my money back. I bought it through a 3rd party shop on Bol.com. I already told them I didn't receive my item on the 13th. They responded that they would ask PostNL. I asked them for an update on the 17th and got no response. Today I escalated to Bol.com.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Sounds like you're doing good to me...
bol.com is usually pretty easy/quick with refunds, from what I've seen. Sent an item back for repair two times now, both times I just got a refund and bought a new one...
 
JAD
JAD
12:09 PM
it's the problem as of late tbh. Lot's of things happen with deliveries that suck for the recipient, but they don't have a good avenue for recourse since "they're not the primary party"
that, and that none of the delivery drivers are actual employees of PostNL it seems
 
Belle
Belle
12:22 PM
I personally avoid shipping with PostNL if I can. Even DHL seems better.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
12:37 PM
Yay for manually having a to see if everything still compiles /s yaaaawn!
 
JAD
JAD
yay for scheduled breaks ;)
as you might have noticed, I have no qualms about imposed inefficiencies. If the higherups decide we should work inefficiently, that's their problem
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
Yeah, true but... I only slept 4,5 hours last night for some elusive reason... and only 6 the night before that... This is making me fall asleep at my desk! :/
 
JAD
JAD
:\
 
Belle
Belle
I do better with scheduled breaks. My current job allows me to take breaks whenever I want, which makes me take less breaks, which makes me less focused.
 
JAD
JAD
you can just schedule them yourself
 
Belle
Belle
12:45 PM
I'm trying to schedule breaks now, and actually removing myself from my desk for them.
A little bit of wisdom from my colleague: "I have only very rarely met someone that is too sensitive. I have met a great deal of people who say others are too sensitive, while they themselves cause trouble and hurt."
2
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
I've lately begun thinking it's not as much a thing about sensitiveness or causing trouble/hurt, but more of a thing between how people a.) Are used to a particular way of communicating stuff to others b.) Used to a way others communicate to them and c.) Expectations from both parties about said ways of communication
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
1:08 PM
I am skeptical with the claim that some people would feel stronger emotions than others.
So I tend to ignore the sensitivity labels altogether, even when people apply it to themselves.
 
Magisch
Magisch
1:36 PM
filtering magnitudes of emotions don't work, you never have control over the emotional reactions of others or how they feel. The only thing you yourself can control is what you do with that knowledge.
So if your actions hurt someone, you can either stop/mitigate, or keep going. Thats a choice you make. I don't think talking about levels of sensitivity is helpful in that respect. If you seek to minimize harm you cause to others, the only information you need is what they tell you.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@ArthurHavlicek Meh. Just check the DSM ;) I think there's enough psychological evidence for that...
@Magisch Yep. Which is basically just an expectation of how people expect you to communicate to them ;)
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
@Tinkeringbell I'm not sure what I said was clear. I have diagnosed personality trouble which make me more likely to feel some strong emotions rather than others. But I wouldn't argue that I overall "feel more" than others.
What distinguish me from a balanced person is the, well, balance of that feelings
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@ArthurHavlicek Hmm. So more isn't necessarily stronger for you?
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
@Tinkeringbell no, not necessarily. You can feel for example strong sadness for a long time, and that would be more important than everything else you could feel during that time. How would that be described ? That you are sensitive (to sadness) or insensitive (to everything else) ?
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
1:55 PM
@ArthurHavlicek Okay. But then people feel that sadness stronger than others, or the rest much less stronger. I agree it might not map 1/1 to more/less sensitiveness...
But some people do feel some emotions stronger than others, so that part of your original message confused me ;)
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
@Tinkeringbell at some point of the time they do, i agree I worded that confusingly
that's why I edit my answers a lot, usually my first try isn't very respectful to what I really mean
I am skeptical with the notion of a stronger (or weaker) ability to perceive one's emotional state that the "sensitivity" term implies.
 
Belle
Belle
2:12 PM
This got very scientific :P
The context in which this comment was made, was me telling my colleague that some people at my old job had said I was too sensitive.
By the way, the internet said I should try microwaving apples and I will have no more allergic reaction to them. Does this mean I can eat apples again?
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
depends what part of internet I suppose
I would be careful
 
Belle
Belle
Apparently the protein I'm allergic to is thermolabile. I think I've noticed this. The list says I should be allergic to mango, but I've never had any issues with mango, but I buy my mango frozen.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Belle Can you eat apple sauce?
That's basically heated apple too. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.
 
Belle
Belle
@Tinkeringbell Yeah, apple sauce is fine. Apple pie too.
I can also have orange juice from a package, but not fresh
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Belle Yeah, in that sense 'too sensitive' is just people saying 'you expect us to communicate a certain way to you that we're not finding acceptable'... sensitive is such a fuzzy thing.
@Belle Probably because I've once heard that's heated too, to boil out water. Then it's shipped from one place to another, where water is added again... Saves on transport costs, I guess.
Then I think microwaved apple should be fine, but don't expect to be able to eat raw apple after ;)
 
Belle
Belle
2:24 PM
I hope they taste the same :P
I love apples!
 
JAD
JAD
@Tinkeringbell and shelf life I imagine
 
Magisch
Magisch
@Belle fruit juices are often shipped as concentrate
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Belle It doesn't sound like it will, tbh. I'm expecting at least the texture to change and become soggy, like the apples in apple pie
 
Ælis
Ælis
2:57 PM
@Belle Yeah, people saying "you are too sensitive" are just really not nice person incapable of questionning their own actions. They are so "not nice", they would rather keep hurting you than be wrong
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
I wouldn't necessarily say they aren't nice people... I've personally noticed things like generation gaps or cultural differences might cause this too, and then it's a matter of 'whose job is it to adapt their expectations'...

I often feel people are quick these days to call each other too sensitive, but also quick to dismiss problems with expectations as 'the other party is just not being nice enough'.
(Of course there's a subset of people that don't feel they have to change for anyone or anything, and will never look for that understanding, and those people are a-holes).
 
JAD
JAD
as long as neither party considers the problem theirs to solve, you're not going anywhere
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JAD Exactly.
But dismissing such a remark out of hand with 'well, you're just not nice enough'... will also get you nowhere. It's sometimes better to try and understand what is said than focusing too much on how things are said... nasty remarks can sometimes hold a truth too.
 
JAD
JAD
it's a bit of a truism but still
 
Ælis
Ælis
@Tinkeringbell Well, I don't see how telling someone"you are just a snowflake/too sensitive" will help move the conversation forward...
 
brug
brug
3:05 PM
Calling someone too sensitive is almost always meant to be dismissive to the very real hurt that someone is feeling and used to excuse the behavior that caused that hurt.
If anyone is being dismissive it is the people calling others "too sensitive"
 
JAD
JAD
that's how it works in theory. The point is that that argument isn't going to help you convince the other person
 
brug
brug
Arguing that the inverse... that trying to justify hurting people... being labeled hurtful is dismissive is some centrist, both sides, equivocating
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
*shrug*. It depends. If it 'comes out of nowhere' it might be someone has been holding back on talking about behavior that's been bothering them for a looong while, and things just boiled over.

If you try and have a normal conversation/ ask people to do something and they flat out refuse with those words, you probably have someone that you're better off without.

If it comes after you've kept correcting people with stuff (and they initially went along with it, but it's just one thing after another)... You've probably pushed that person too much and might be better off giving them space.
 
Ælis
Ælis
@brug Yeah, that
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@brug It's a very polarized blame game.
That basically boils down to 'who is responsible for my hurt feelings'.
In the end, often no one is.
 
brug
brug
3:12 PM
@Tinkeringbell which is still DARVO in action. When people say that you hurt them but you claim that you aren't responsible for their feelings, you are equivocating your responsibility. That would be like holding someone responsible for punching you and them saying they are not responsible for your face.
 
Magisch
Magisch
you always have to ask yourself what you want
 
brug
brug
People are always responsible for the repercussions of their actions!
If you hurt people it is your fault you hurt them.
 
Magisch
Magisch
depends. Thats not universal
 
brug
brug
If you slip, and fall, and unintentionally knock someone down and injure them you still have some responsibility to them.
I will never accept that you are allowed to hurt people and then blame them for feeling hurt.
 
Magisch
Magisch
I get hurt when people talk over each other near me. That doesn't mean random passerbys have a obligation to stifle their conversation when I'm nearby. But it also means my friends mind that fact. The level of accomodation one provides is always scaled by how much one wants to invest in the conversation and relationship involved
 
brug
brug
3:14 PM
That is the literal definition of victim blaming
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@brug The point I was arguing.... is that it's often not anyone's fault. Not the person that's hurt, but also not the person that hurted.
 
JAD
JAD
and if you slip, fall, and someone claims you hurt them, while you're not convinced you did. What then?
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@brug Which is definitely not where I was going...
I have a book at home that explains it better than me. Can we stall this conversation for a few hours until I have access to it?
 
JAD
JAD
I mean, obviously you have got to draw a line somewhere
Unless anyone that claims to have been hurt is automatically in the right
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@JAD Schwalbe! :D
 
brug
brug
3:15 PM
@JAD ahh of course there is bad faith. I'm not saying you should pay out false claims.
 
Ælis
Ælis
Ok, I shouldn't have jumped in this conversation ^^ I'm too tired for that right now, so I'll leave you all to it
 
Magisch
Magisch
being kind means extending effort to avoid causing harm, and you should, but there's a limit to that concept
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Ælis I'm sorry :) I like having these, they keep my mind awake when I'm running on little sleep. I can imagine it's hard for you.
 
JAD
JAD
@brug and who gets to judge on that? Of course with physical injury it's pretty straightforward to figure out
verbal hurt much less so
if of the people in a conversation, those red lines are drawn at different places so to speak, what is hurtful for one might come across as "bad faith" to another
 
Ælis
Ælis
@Tinkeringbell No worry, I wasn't blaming you. I think those are important conversations to have. Just not with me :p
 
brug
brug
3:17 PM
@Magisch I get that and there are always nuance. I can't never leave my house out of fear that I will hurt people but I can mitigate it where possible and certainly not blame other people for being subjected to it,
 
JAD
JAD
of course you should presume someone is sincere in their hurt
 
brug
brug
@JAD For one, it isn't always easy to determine physical either.
 
Magisch
Magisch
to a certain extent, when the effort is limited, it's reasonable to just believing when someone tells you you hurt them and to adjust behavior. But we all agree there is a reasonableness test at work there
 
Ælis
Ælis
@JAD I would rather be physically hurt than verbally hurt...
 
JAD
JAD
@Ælis not relevant
 
Magisch
Magisch
3:18 PM
for instance, I can't go into a busy subway and expect people to stop talking so I don't get a headache
 
JAD
JAD
not what I'm saying either
 
brug
brug
Two, this is about turning things around. We can accept that other people are hurt and try to correct without saying that they are too sensitive and therefor we should do nothing about it.
@Magisch yes, but if you tell your friend that you aren't riding the subway with them because it gives you headaches and they call you too sensitive
 
Magisch
Magisch
yeah, that'd be a douche move
 
JAD
JAD
@brug if it's a stand-alone occurrence, of course not. You should presume that if someone claims to be hurt, it's genuine.
 
brug
brug
We can't erase the fact then when people come together there will be inadvertent pain. Especially since keep people apart also brings pain, but blaming the person who is feeling pain, FOR FEELING PAIN, is what is wrong.
2
 
Magisch
Magisch
3:21 PM
in 99% of interpersonal situations if someone tells you you hurt them the default reaction is to act as if that is true, and not expend the thought of not believing them, because adjusting to negate the harm is free/nearly free and low effort. In these cases it's reasonable to just take people at their word
"this is a sensitive subject for me" lets talk about something else then
 
Ælis
Ælis
@JAD Sorry, but I could not let you say that "verbal hurt much less". To me it's simply not true and saying that is dangerous because it leads people to undervalue their mental health. "It was just words" and yet, people still commit suicide over them
 
JAD
JAD
@Ælis read again. that's not what I said.
I hereby explicitly tell you that that is not what I said
 
Magisch
Magisch
I think what JAD meant was "verbal hurt (is) much less (clear cut to determine)"
 
JAD
JAD
please don't assume that I did
 
brug
brug
STOP
It was a misunderstanding that was reasonable to make.
Your line break made it appear as a separate statement and if the context wasn't followed it was a legitimate mistake to make.
 
Ælis
Ælis
3:24 PM
@JAD Sorry, I indeed misunderstood. Thanks @Magisch for clarifying.
 
JAD
JAD
@brug the first time. yes. It's also the second time I corrected them
but thanks for pointing out
 
Ælis
Ælis
@JAD Just saying"not relevant" wasn't enough to made me realize I misunderstood you ^^
 
JAD
JAD
7 mins ago, by JAD
not what I'm saying either
 
Ælis
Ælis
@JAD I wasn't sure who you were talking to ^^
 
JAD
JAD
hmm
 
Ælis
Ælis
3:27 PM
As I said, I'm tired. I probably better do something else ^^
 
JAD
JAD
I guess the fact that I sent those messages right after eachother isn't as visible if you didn't see them coming in
my bad
apologies, should've been clearer
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
3:40 PM
@brug But so is blaming rudeness, not niceness, assholery on another person just because you're feeling hurt.
And that's an important part that's often left out for convenience of the blame game
 
brug
brug
@Tinkeringbell But it is rude, not nice, and assholish to blame me for feeling pain and then dismiss it.
That's the thing here. I am not blaming all people who are present, or even the direct cause of other peoples pain, of being an asshole. Just the ones who shut down the aggrieved for having the audacity to speak up and say: "That hurt me"
That requires an active component of assholishness
gotta run...
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@brug Yeah and my point of view is that 'too sensitive' isn't necessarily a shut down. Just like people can tell me I'm too insensitive around certain issues, so they have the right to tell me I may be overreacting and too sensitive to other issues.
No matter how hurt I feel, it's also up to me to be introspective. And yes, sometimes that means saying 'I won't change my views on this so our ways part here'. At other times, that means I work out a mode of communication that works better.
But I guess I'm not in the middle of fighting whatever fight that's often dismissed, so my mindset on these issues is totally different...
 
brug
brug
4:04 PM
That's the thing. You can in fact disagree with someone and stand by that disagreement. (Although many times that can be a problem too. Like when people disagree over whether I deserve to have human rights) But that's not what you are defending. You also aren't defending the idea that there can be blamelessness. Because "too sensitive" is blaming. You cannot call someone that without implicitly blaming them for their hurt.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@brug Too sensitive != Too hurt. So I disagree with that notion. If people tell me I'm too sensitive they're not blaming me for being hurt, though they are holding me accountable for how I express said hurt.
 
Belle
Belle
Too sensitive and too hurt are indeed not the same, but that is because that perceived sensitivity is the cause of the hurt. Saying someone is too sensitive is generally akin to saying they should not be hurt by something.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Belle Hence my remark about mindsets a few messages back, because that's definitely not the case in my experience. I'm also not a saint that can see any form of feedback for what is (a genuine attempt to communicate communication issues, and not blame, attack or rudeness)... but it always turns out it's just that given time and distance.
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
4:26 PM
"Too sensitive" is judgemental. This is a violent thing to say about someone whatever context it is.
2
 
Belle
Belle
I've only ever seen the phrase used to turn blame around and excuse horrible behaviour. Just like "I'm sorry if that hurt you" is not an apology.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@ArthurHavlicek it's still feedback in communication theory terms, just like a punch to the face may be ;) And it's up to people how they want to deal with that... So far I think I'm on one end of a spectrum of possible reactions and a few other people here are on the other end...
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
@Tinkeringbell I'm a bit curious how you'd "deal with" a punch in the face.
 
Belle
Belle
It is not about whose fault it is. It is about not invalidating someone's feelings, regardless of the cause. If someone trips and hurts themselves, you don't call them too sensitive if they say it hurts. You don't feel how someone else feels. It's no different for mental hurt.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@ArthurHavlicek I'd walk away, think about what I did to deserve/provoke it , maybe ask a few others about their opinion on that, talk to the person that punched if I can't guess why... Decide whether I value the relationship over the issue that led to punching...
See if we can figure things out or if we should go our separate ways
@Belle True and my point is that if someone falls and hurts themselves, I don't blame them for being hurt. I do call them out for excessive cursing though: I express that their expression of their hurt isn't acceptable to me.
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
4:36 PM
@Tinkeringbell Personally depend of the context, I might throw one back who knows. I could also just leave. I could also get a group to agree on a "no punches" policy and exclude people that don't respect that.
 
Belle
Belle
@Tinkeringbell Fair enough, but that's not the problem. The problem is people who say that the fall didn't hurt at all and why did you go to the doctor, it's just a scratch, you're just too sensitive.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@ArthurHavlicek Those are all options too...
 
Belle
Belle
Why is your arm in a cast? Doctor says arm is broken? That's impossible. Too sensitive.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Belle Don't look at the kid when it fell, and it's fine. Look, and it starts crying its lungs out. There's definitely people like that out there too.
 
scohe001
scohe001
@Belle I think a more apt analogy would be calling the person a klutz who's always falling and needs to learn to walk like everyone else. I don't see a problem with calling a scratch a scratch when the person complains they need a hospital (though how much pain a person feels shouldn't be diminished by doing so)
 
Mithical
Mithical
4:40 PM
 
Belle
Belle
Yes, some people want attention, especially kids. But that doesn't tend to last long. If someone makes big decisions over hurt, it's generally not because they want attention.
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
I think conversation would benefit from more examples
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@ArthurHavlicek Meh, these conversations often don't go better with hypotheticals, just escalate more as people find more extreme hypotheticals....
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
OK, well then I don't know
@Tinkeringbell I have a bit of difficulty to wrap my head around what you want to explain
I understand @Belle and @brug stance though
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
I think we've gone a long way from the original, which was quite black and white (no one is ever too sensitive, people just call others that because they want to continue a hurtful behavior)... My point is that there's a whole gray area that's often much more constructive in between.
One where people give better feedback on one side, but also on the other side don't dismiss possibly valuable feedback as hurt feelings being dismissed
I've never gotten anywhere in life by seeing things as deliberate attempts to offend my sensibilities.
I've also never gotten anywhere by just letting people offend my sensibilities continually
Gotta run, almost at the station
 
Belle
Belle
4:54 PM
I got called too sensitive when I got attacked for being friends with a goth. It was filmed and put on YT. People laughed at the video, at my screaming and humiliation. Told me I was overreacting. At me sitting out PE because my whole body ached. At me fainting randomly over the next few weeks because I had suffered brain damage. At me taking the attackers to court for attempted manslaughter. I won the case. A judge agreed with me that I was not too sensitive, but basically my whole school
made me feel like I wasn't.
 
avazula
avazula
@Belle I'm ... so sorry you had to go through this. :(
 
Mithical
Mithical
WTAF
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
It's a sad moving story :(
 
brug
brug
@Belle I'm so sorry
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
5:21 PM
@Belle And I'm sorry if anything I said raised the idea that these aren't those exceptional cases where your coworker is right.. it just annoys me to see people present the exception or one side as the only side, so I tried to remind everyone life is more nuanced than this. Apparently I should pick my words or my audiences for that better.
 
Arthur Havlicek
Arthur Havlicek
5:33 PM
I usually think it's fine to extract useful information from things that are expressed incorrectly or harshly but if judgement is all you have i wouldn't know how to proceed except protecting yourself. In this case I think that's fine to simply reject.
It like when a kid tell me "give me water" I would correct that and i would also give water.
But if someone yelled at me on the street id ignore.
 
brug
brug
6:05 PM
@Tinkeringbell It doesn't have to be deliberate.
@Tinkeringbell How very privileged of you to get to just "not let" it effect you.
This conversation isn't getting better so I am gonna go so as to "not let it bother me" anymore.
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@brug Eh. I'm guessing here but that doesn't seem to be the correct interpretation.. it means I have shut people out because they kept insisting on offending my sensibilities, not that I'm immune to offense.
But sure, I've realised by now this is not a good conversation to be having in this room... We better switch topics than leave the room though.
 
Ælis
Ælis
@Belle I'm so sorry, here is a cat for you:
Though I do realize a cat isn't making this really better. It's just a way to express my love to you
 
Belle
Belle
6:21 PM
@Ælis <3
 
Ælis
Ælis
Here is a hug too:
 
Belle
Belle
7:08 PM
<3
What's with just about every question I write hitting HNQ?
 
Tinkeringbell
Tinkeringbell
@Belle Quick answers, bunch of votes from people that know you. Add a dash of something to argue about too :P
 
Ælis
Ælis
7:29 PM
@Belle That's the curse of writing good questions :p Keep doing it! (also, remember that you can opt out of HNQ any time)
 
 
1 hour later…
scohe001
scohe001
8:32 PM
 

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