The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Wad Cheber

9:00 PM

People recognize Mos as our main chat - maybe anything else should have "General chat" in the name.

Ixrec

true, though that'd probably apply to any room with a name that was less generic than "General SFF Chat"

Wad Cheber

Jinx

Ixrec

and part of the point is to deliberately not have "Mos" anywhere near the name of anything anymore

user132126

The room description says General Discussion. Perhaps we can word that slightly different

Wad Cheber

I don't think "Mos" was the problem, but okay.

user132126

9:00 PM

"PRIMARY GENERAL CHAT FOR SFF"?

Wad Cheber

@CreationEdge The name doesn't.

Ixrec

no one reads descriptions so it's probably fine as is

Wad Cheber

TAK HEER

Gallifreyan

@Ixrec Who cares - anyone who's against my suggestion can come to chat and tell it to my face; I bet only 5 people will (out of ~20 or so voters).

Wad Cheber

TAK HEER RUME

user132126

9:01 PM

user132126

When you're selecting a room as a first time SFF visit, it's right there. Making it allcaps or Title Case could make it stand out more?

Gallifreyan

Please now

user132126

My concern would just be getting new users pointed to the right place.

Ixrec

this is probably why a meta thread would be useful: I have no idea how ordinary users discover this sort of thing

Catija

Hey Wad :D

Wad Cheber

9:03 PM

Everyone just uses a reference to their favorite franchise.

Gallifreyan

I thought it was the point that people don't just discover this room - one does not simply walk into ~~Mos~~ Restaurant.

Ixrec

evidently new people are finding this room, somehow, so we haven't confused everyone, but maybe we confused enough people to be worth not doing another name change, I just dunno

user132126

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid having a meta about the details followed by another meta about the actual next name rotation.

Wad Cheber

I suggest "Outpost #31", everyone else suggests less cool ideas, one of which wins.

@Catija Hey!

Ixrec

we need a meta about whether we're allowed to discuss the possibility of a meta thread for chatroom names in chat prior to discussing them on a meta thread, on meta of course

3

Catija

9:04 PM

It's Meta all the way down!

Ixrec

it kinda is

user132126

A quarterly post with voting closing the day before implementation? A yearly post where whichever suggestion is the highest but hasn't been done already goes? Catija suggested we do the same 4 every year, so a post open for the next quarter and the top 4 at the end are the 4 we use "permanently"?

user132126

Is all of this too much hope that we'll even be open next quarter?

Ixrec

same 4 every year would be lame imo

Gallifreyan

This is all too much responsibility, Imma go read Nausicaa in my bed. G'night!

user132126

9:07 PM

Quitter!

Ixrec

@CreationEdge well, there are two mods in this conversation, if neither of you guys know I sure as heck don't

user132126

Okay, I think I have a decent solution that'll work for me, and if no one likes it then whatever, it'll die.

Wad Cheber

"Super Friendly Friends Chat". It has SFF in it and it is pro-friendliness.

2

Catija

@Ixrec Not sure why we'd have any more insight than you, really... it's up to this community, and yes, that includes the non-SFF mods who frequent it, to keep this room reigned in. It's certainly been achieved but it's not all on the mods... the non-mod users probably have more ability to moderate the actions because they can cast flags without them being instantly binding. I really wish people wouldn't be so afraid to flag something.

user132126

And if a conversation is making you uncomfortable, then you can flag a message for moderator attention and only mods will see the flag (so it won't put up the not-so-subtle flag bubble on every eligible network user's avatar). It's especially useful if you can't pinpoint a specific message as offensive, but you know the whole conversation is not in a good place.

Catija

9:16 PM

Heck, even if it's just one statement and you want to actually explain your flag a bit, use the flag for moderator attention and use the explanation field.

Babelfish

0

Q: Does a Vulcan, in a mind-meld, feel the emotions of the entity with whom he is melding?

My question is prompted by a question on English Language and Usage: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/390483/is-there-a-word-for-cold-empathy. The kernel of the question is: I am looking for a word that means "understanding BUT NOT sharing the feelings of another". I immediate...

star-trek

DCOPTimDowd

So could we flag an unrelated post and explain what's really going on with the textbox?

Ixrec

well, at least try to pick a related post

DCOPTimDowd

Yeah, but we could

If, for example, someone feared some sort of retribution for flagging someone else's post, they could flag a mod's or RO's post and explain to them what happened

I've heard that one of the big problems for flags is the complaining person doesn't want to mark the perp so they don't mark at all

Catija

@DCOPTimDowd Why would you do that? Why flag an innocuous chat message?

The person who is the target of the flag is not notified that they were flagged. Mods need to see the actual post to be able to adequately respond.

Ixrec

9:29 PM

(by the way, does anyone actually know firsthand of people who were afraid to flag things, rather than guessing/assuming such people must exist? I've never known anyone who contemplated using the flag system at all, much less decided against using it)

Vroomfondel

0

Q: Why did the writer of the 2016 "Lucifer" comic series change from Holly Black to Richard Kadrey?

I've been following the 2016 Lucifer series, and enjoying it. While re-arranging my Calibre library, I noticed that, while all the issues up to and including 13th have been written by Holly Black, issue 14 was written by Black and Richard Kadrey, while issue after that were written by Kadrey alon...

comics holly-black lucifer richard-kadrey

DCOPTimDowd

From what I've heard since this last chat debacle, people have been afraid of flagging the correct person because of splashback from the community

Is this information incorrect?

Catija

@Ixrec Bellerophon said that in their answer, so I assume they are.

I've also seen at least two users say that they're not going to use flags and would rather people talk it out in chat... which defeats the purpose of flagging... allowing a user who feels uncomfortable to have a private way to report it.

DCOPTimDowd

@Catija I'm only looking for ways to help prevent more chat issues in the future

Catija

All flagging the wrong message will do is confuse the crap out of the people responding to the flags.

Ixrec

9:32 PM

@Catija isn't the purpose of flagging to be a last resort after reasonable discourse fails?

2

Catija

No.

Never.

Ixrec

oh

Catija

Who gave you that idea? That's absurd.

Ixrec

what is it for then?

DCOPTimDowd

@Catija It would get it out there at least

Ixrec

9:32 PM

every other website in the world with a flagging system, for starters

Wad Cheber

Flagging Shog makes things worse.

Catija

Flagging is for helping users get bad content removed.

Wad Cheber

But it's pretty funny.

Catija

Users can not remove their own posts after... 4 minutes... so the only way it can be removed is with a moderator's help.

Ixrec

so flagging your own content if you later realized it went too far would be considered typical usage?

Catija

9:34 PM

Or is it 2 minutes? the point is bad content needs to get removed and users need to have a mechanic for it.

some small number of minutes, I can never remember either

Edlothiad

2 edit, 5 remove

Catija

@Ixrec Sure. :) I see people do that pretty regularly. I wouldn't go over the top with it but if you realize that a post was taken poorly and you can't delete it, feel free to flag it for moderator attention and ask for it to be removed.

Wad Cheber

You can delete your own messages until 3 seconds before you realize that you should probably delete one of your messages.

Edlothiad

9:35 PM

I feel like I'm more afraid to flag a mod then a user.

Wad Cheber

@Edlothiad You should be.

Ixrec

is anyone not afraid to flag a mod?

Catija

Can you explain?

Wad, you're not helping.

2

Wad Cheber

And flagging CMs is bad.

@Catija I'm not trying to help.

:)

Edlothiad

@WadCheber A mod would know I've flagged them and take offense. They would then have powers over me of which I could do nothing

Catija

9:36 PM

If people are honestly trying to discuss this, I'd like to help facilitate that and I think it would be appreciated if you would respect that.

Wad Cheber

DCOPTimDowd

@Catija That's what I was doing and you all called me ridiculous. :)

Edlothiad

A user would be unaware and could do nothing

Catija

@DCOPTimDowd I apologize for that.

Wad Cheber

Sorry, that is my standard response to "you're not helping", because TMNT.

DCOPTimDowd

9:38 PM

@WadCheber I don't count that series, because BOO-YAH-KASHA!

Wad Cheber

But you can have your own message removed by 1) flagging for mod attention, or 2) asking a mod or RO to get rid of it. But RO's can only move it to the trash room, not actually delete it.

Catija

@Edlothiad If a moderator sees that you've flagged them for some reason, please know that it's standard recommendations for mods to not handle flags that relate to themselves. Also, if a moderator were to take it out on you somehow, that would be considered bad form and a breech of the moderator agreement.

DCOPTimDowd

@Catija It's cool. I like looking for options, especially since there was word of people saying they were too afraid to flag a post directly

Wad Cheber

End seriousness.

@DCOPTimDowd Possibly because the consequences can be excessive?

Ixrec

I guess the only remaining question is that if that is how flags are supposed to be used...why does getting flagged ever directly result in a suspension?

Edlothiad

9:41 PM

@Catija This is all well and dandy written down, but what is there to stop them?

Ixrec

that seems like a pretty strong implication that flagging is supposed to be punitive

DCOPTimDowd

@WadCheber Socially, yes

Wad Cheber

You can dislike what someone is saying while still knowing that in the past, flags have led to ridiculous room freezes and suspensions which caused all kinds of nasty fallout for months afterwards.

That's why we invented "Tacos"

user132126

I think people flag comments on SFF quite regularly. Not always as offensive, but I imagine more proactively than they do in chat.

DCOPTimDowd

@WadCheber There's that too

Wad Cheber

9:42 PM

It stopped the conversation without attracting unwanted attention.

Catija

@Edlothiad If you're honestly concerned about it, you should consider writing up a feature request on MSE asking that moderators not be able to see chat flags on their own messages. I'm not actually certain whether they can or not. You're more than welcome to flag one of my messages "for Science" to see if I can see the flag. I'll even make a message for you to flag...

Ixrec

yeah we're definitely not talking about comment flags

user132126

Considering chat is glorified comment streams, I don't see flags as a last-resort

2

Wad Cheber

@CreationEdge We learned to treat them as such because overuse led to the apocalypse more than once.

Ixrec

admittedly, most of the userbase of this chatroom has changed since then

user132126

9:44 PM

I don't feel like they've ever been overused in Mos :/

DCOPTimDowd

@CreationEdge Wasn't that part of the problem?

Wad Cheber

The level of CM attention led to a situation where we were afraid to flag because everyone got punished for what ~~I was~~ one or two people were doing

Catija

@Ixrec Why wouldn't it? If someone says something egregiously bad and then refuses to accept that what they're saying is inappropriate for chat, why should they be welcome here? I'm not saying it should be a long suspension but a 30 minute time out or an hour or a day...

user132126

@DCOPTimDowd Right. Non-use, non community moderatior.

Wad Cheber

@Catija Or a year? That happened too.

DCOPTimDowd

9:46 PM

@CreationEdge Right

Ixrec

@Catija that kinda completely contradicts the claim that it's for cleaning up any bad content, even if the user has since been persuaded it was inappropriate

Edlothiad

@Catija Well I pressed the little flag, didn't give me many options there

Wad Cheber

Case in point...

:)

Edlothiad

wad, check your mails?

Ixrec

probably a good time to stop this topic anyway

user132126

9:47 PM

I'd much rather get a mod attention flag come my way, check out what's going on, and redirect chat (firmly or very firmly if needed) than have a bubble make everyone go "Whodunnit?! What, why that message?"

Avery

Considering the recent chat room drama, abusing flags is not the best thing to do. Just saying.

Catija

@Ixrec How so? You're implying that flags can't have multiple uses?

user132126

Because as I've seen, it's usually not a single message that causes the problem.

Ixrec

uh...with regard to a single type of flag with a single set of consequences, yeah

Wad Cheber

The use is a theoretical issue, the consequences are practical.

Catija

9:48 PM

@Edlothiad It should give you the option to flag generally for spam or abuse or "for moderator attention"... you want the latter.

Ixrec

but anyway, we should stop talking about this now

Catija

@Avery It's cool.

Wad Cheber

It isn't that cool.

Edlothiad

@Catija I pressed the little flag and it said "OK!"

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec Are the Harry Potter movies not considered canon?

Wad Cheber

9:48 PM

One freeze began with a mod saying "Flag me".

Avery

It's not. You've just pinged every single 10k network users and mods across the network.

Wad Cheber

For reals.

Avery

You = the person who flagged this:

6 mins ago, by Catija

"For Science!" Try this one.

Edlothiad

Ok flagged @Catija

Ixrec

@DCOPTimDowd I'm not familiar with Harry Potter but my understanding is that the movies changed or omitted enough stuff that they have to be considered their own separate thing

Wad Cheber

9:49 PM

I think we got frozen for a week because of that.

Catija

@Edlothiad So, yes, I can see it.

Wad Cheber

This is an example of why SFF is often afraid to flag.

Catija

@Avery We were testing something and it was done wrong.

Avery

@Edlothiad facepalm and that just pinged every network moderator.

Wad Cheber

Flag legitimately flagworthy thing, all hell breaks loose, we lose our chat room.

Edlothiad

9:50 PM

@Avery I said "ask Catija" I'm safe

Wad Cheber

Or in this case, flag for science, all the CMs think SFF is acting up again, we lose our chat room.

2

Ixrec

at this point I'm sorry I asked any questions at all

DCOPTimDowd

@WadCheber Is SFF the only one with this particular problem?

Wad Cheber

When a site/room becomes known for trouble, flags - whether justified or frivolous - invite overreaction and excessive responses.

Catija

Here, blame me. If anything happens... I will apologize to anyone who complains and do my best to fix things. I'm honestly trying to help so I don't intend there to be negative consequences.

Wad Cheber

9:52 PM

@DCOPTimDowd No, but we were really good at it.

Ixrec

let's just stop talking about flags, everyone already has a stance on this stuff based on experience and talking about it isn't going to change anyone's mind

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec For the record, I was only asking for more info

Wad Cheber

The thing is, our bad days were very much behind us and everything seemed to be going well for months and months.

Ixrec

@DCOPTimDowd so was I, but I regret doing so

Catija

@Ixrec Not with that attitude. If people are afraid to flag for any reason that's a problem and it means that the site isn't functioning correctly.

Wad Cheber

9:53 PM

I haven't been around much for the last 6 months, but it seemed like we'd been problem-free for a year or so.

Catija

@WadCheber And then you stopped coming around and throwing tacos out when they needed to be there. :( You spent so much time worrying that you were too much of the problem that your absence could have been part of the problem. Despite what you may think of yourself and your negative history, you did a lot to keep Mos on track.

DCOPTimDowd

@Catija Either that or enough rumors and bad examples have spread to make people at least question bringing a problem forward

Wad Cheber

@Catija I didn't leave because I thought I sucked, I left because I had other stuff going on.

I know I became a positive presence, although my tenure as RO was not so great.

DCOPTimDowd

There was an episode of Texas Ranger on yesterday about not coming forward when there was a problem with abuse because of the fear associated with speaking up

Catija

@WadCheber Yeah, I know. That wasn't my intent... when we were chatting before you seemed really concerned that you wouldn't be good as a RO because you didn't have a good idea of what was OK... but I think that you are better at it than you think.

Wad Cheber

9:56 PM

I wish I had been around more after Richard came back, because I think I could have nudged him in the right direction.

Ixrec

note that the question of whether to speak up when something bad is happening and the question of whether to use a flag as the method of speaking up are two completely different questions

if there's any chance of this discussion not turning into another tire fire like the ones on meta let's at least not mix those up

Wad Cheber

(and for the record, I think the current name of what used to be Mos is wildly unhelpful, counterproductive, juvenile, and ridiculous)

5

Catija

@WadCheber That's fair...

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec Not necessarily. If someone flags a message and the offender gets suspended, they're could be a worry of them getting back at who they believe flagged them

Catija

@Ixrec Sure... the answer to the first part is "yes, always" and the answer to the second part is "It depends on the user".

Wad Cheber

9:58 PM

Leave it frozen, but don't turn it into a public stockade to shame people

Ixrec

@DCOPTimDowd that's...exactly my point? that flags aren't always the optimal mechanism?

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec Oh. I thought you were debating me. :)

Catija

No one even got flagged in the final straw that broke the Mos...

Ixrec

not that particular one

Wad's referring to older but similar incidents

user132126

@DCOPTimDowd If someone can't handle a 30 minute auto-suspension without flipping out or going on a witch hunt, then maybe a 30 day manual suspension is more suiting?

Wad Cheber

10:01 PM

@Ixrec That's the thing - flagging creates a conflict between the flagee and a faceless "opponent". People are more likely to lash out at the faceless opponent than a person who speaks up and says "this is a problematic conversation, let's talk about Wookiees"

DCOPTimDowd

@CreationEdge As long as the punishment matches the crime

Wad Cheber

If the person who complained is anonymous, you don't see them as another human being with feelings. You see them as an abstract tattletale.

user132126

I don't...

Wad Cheber

Then everyone might react by saying "ANONYMOUS TATTLETALE IS THE PROBLEM" and flinging poop everywhere, after which the CMs wade in with billy clubs and thump everyone.

Catija

@WadCheber You're only looking at it from the point of view of the flagee... If someone is honestly uncomfortable with something being discussed but worries that letting someone know publicly that they have an issue with it - perhaps they have personal things they don't want to make public here... they have the right to present their case in a private manner.

DCOPTimDowd

10:03 PM

@WadCheber And even if the person who stated they have a problem with the current conversation wasn't the one who flagged it, they'd still most likely get the flak since they put themselves out there

user132126

Hopefully all my "obsolete" and "not constructive" comment flags that got validated don't make me a tattletale.

Wad Cheber

@Catija In theory, and in a perfect world, that would be a solution.

user132126

All of SE is built on community moderation.

Catija

@WadCheber That attitude is not acceptable. That is exactly the sort of reaction that is inappropriate. The user who reacts that way should not be welcome here.

Wad Cheber

This is why I thought "tacos" as Ixrec defined it was so brilliant.

Ixrec

10:04 PM

*accidentally indirectly defined it

Wad Cheber

"Tacos" didn't necessarily mean "I'm uncomfortable", it meant "This could lead to trouble, let's change direction".

@Catija At one point, 85% of the regulars reacted that way.

DCOPTimDowd

@WadCheber Is that what the "floofs" are supposed to do now?

Ixrec

The floofs are completely unrelated to any of this.

Wad Cheber

@Catija Look at the saved conversations from Mos.

Catija

@WadCheber That doesn't put a face to the complaint either, then...

Ixrec

10:06 PM

floofs just happen to be one of the traditions that was being done by people not part of the post-Mos exodus so they remain intact

Catija

@WadCheber And you wonder why Mos had so many issues...

Wad Cheber

@Catija Yeah, it does - a person everyone knows is saying "Let's stop for the sake of the room"

When @Slytherincess put the brakes on a conversation, she wasn't doing it because she was personally offended, but because she knew we might be headed in a direction that would produce offense to others.

Catija

@WadCheber That still requires that someone actually uses the mechanic. Regardless of whether it's a flag or a taco... someone has to actually use it... and the other users in the room have to respect what it means.

Ixrec

there is a lot of people talking past each other in this conversation though

like, faster than I could possibly correct it even if I wasn't doing other stuff

user132126

Yeah, I can't keep up.

Wad Cheber

10:08 PM

@Catija Absolutely. And we had incidents where a "tacos" was ignored, the person who ignored it was flagged or kick/muted or whatever, and everyone saw it happen and knew it was justified.

Catija

@WadCheber People stopped using it, though. Within the last week or so of Mos there were at least three events that all involved users being told to cut it out and refusing to do so.

Wad Cheber

But we had SOOO many incidents where a minor hiccup became a total disaster because a flag produced total chaos. Often, off-site mods or CMs would storm in like riot cops and make everything much worse.

Ixrec

My only strong opinion on this matter is that discussing the history of Mos is not a good use of our time. There's just too much disagreement on what "actually happened" for such discussions to be productive.

Wad Cheber

@Catija Those people are probably the ones who needed a timeout, but a reasonable one.

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec Still found it pretty informative though

Wad Cheber

10:11 PM

@Ixrec I think it's relevant, especially in reference to why some people have such an aversion to flagging.

Catija

@WadCheber You can only give people so many timeouts before it becomes clear that they have no respect for the community and need to be removed.

Wad Cheber

And we were talking about that.

Ixrec

@DCOPTimDowd interesting, I would've expected this to merely confuse the heck out of anyone not already opinionated on the subject

user132126

@Ixrec I agree. I prefer to look forward.

Ixrec

@WadCheber It's relevant, but it's not productive. There's a difference.

DCOPTimDowd

10:12 PM

@Ixrec I'm a quick learner and a good listener

Ixrec

@WadCheber and I'm saying this despite agreeing with almost everything you're saying

Catija

@Ixrec Most of this discussion hasn't been about Mos, or, if it is, it's only tangential.

Wad Cheber

@Catija How did freezing the room and shaming users accomplish that?

user132126

@WadCheber That's a can o' worms best left on meta.

user132126

I really don't want to touch that here.

Ixrec

10:13 PM

the last several minutes has been about nothing but what flags have historically been like in Mos...

Catija

@WadCheber I'm with @CreationEdge ... If you haven't already, read the Meta posts... There's no benefit to discussing that here.

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec History is important

Ixrec

if this were any other chatroom, I would agree

Wad Cheber

@CreationEdge But from my perspective, knowing nothing about what happened, it seems like "[users] having no respect for the community and needing to be removed" has little to do with closing an entire room.

DCOPTimDowd

@Catija The meta posts haven't been this educational. Mostly rants and insults there.

I'm really glad I got to sit in on this

Catija

10:15 PM

@WadCheber At the very least read Shog's post...

Wad Cheber

And it illustrates what I'm saying about people perceiving - rightly or wrongly - flags as unjustifiably dangerous

@Catija I skimmed it.

Ixrec

My main concern here is that discussing flags or Mos' history or anything like that will lead us back to the same "discussions" (scare quotes very mandatory here) that were going on in those meta threads. Those threads which are the only content on the entire SE network I've ever found personally offensive. I really do not want any of that toxicity in here as well. It's just not worth it.

at least make a separate room for it

Slytherincess

Thing is, we can''t change the flag system. It is what it is. So we're left with asking people to behave nicely, and using de-escalation with inappropriate users, and if that doesn't work, of course people are going to throw flags. And that's something we can't control.

Wad Cheber

I read it, and I don't think he makes a strong case to justify closing a room as opposed to just booting troublemakers.

@Slytherincess MISTRESS!!!!

Catija

@Ixrec That's fair.

Wad Cheber

10:18 PM

Slytherincess

@WadCheber - DARLING!

Ixrec

yes, more of this please

we need floofs and huggles

Wad Cheber

@Ixrec I think everyone here is being mature and friendly, so we're probably safe.

No one even seems to be bringing emotions into it.

Ixrec

@WadCheber I would've agreed with you before those meta threads.

Wad Cheber

@Ixrec Meta ain't chat.

DCOPTimDowd

10:19 PM

@Ixrec Who is your profile pic? I always thought it was Harry Potter until I zoomed in.

Ixrec

@DCOPTimDowd LOL

@DCOPTimDowd it's the Second Doctor

Wad Cheber

This conversation is very reasonable.

Ixrec

yeah, thank god

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec Oh. I still see Harry whenever I look at it.

Catija

@WadCheber Perhaps. I also don't think that questioning it or trying to get the old room back is a viable option.... because I honestly don't think it's going to happen. Hopefully the freezing of Mos will change some things and this room can go back to being hip deep in gifs and floofs with only the occasional taco.

Wad Cheber

10:22 PM

People are going to flag as they see fit, and I'm not telling them not to - I was just trying to explain why some Mos people see flags themselves as a problem rather than a solution.

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec The hell is he doing?

Ixrec

@DCOPTimDowd playing his flute?

everyone knows the Second Doctor has a flute

</troll>

Wad Cheber

There was a time when a well intended flag would almost certainly lead to a meltdown.

DCOPTimDowd

@Ixrec I didn't know there were flutes that could be played vertically

Ixrec

I don't think it's perfectly vertical, it just happens to be pointing directly at the camera

DCOPTimDowd

10:25 PM

@Ixrec Still doesn't resemble any flute I've ever seen

Wad Cheber

@Catija I don't even see that as an issue - a new room, whether it is called "Mos" or "Pants are lame", won't solve anything. It doesn't matter which room we're using.

Catija

@WadCheber And I understand your point but I hope that you recognize that it is not OK for users in any room on the network to attack known or unknown flaggers for feeling that a flag was necessary. What is important is to respond to the flag with grace regardless of whether you think it's warranted or not.

Wad Cheber

@Catija I think attacking is unproductive, but there are truly unnecessary flags. I got flagged once for saying "ZOMG A FLAG".

Ixrec

I think you're both failing to listen to each other

Wad Cheber

Flagging may make a minor situation worse, but attacking the unknown flagger will always make it worse.

Ixrec

10:27 PM

have a floof:

Catija

@WadCheber I didn't realize that I needed to spell out "flags cast in good faith".

Wad Cheber

And unless the flag is as clearly unwarranted as a flag on "ZOMG A FLAG", it is best for everyone involved to accept it and move on, and it might help if the flagee apologized and explicitly tried to change the subject to something less controversial.

I would still like to see Mos' name changed. The current name strikes me as pretty incendiary.

Catija

@WadCheber Yeah... the second half of what you said is what I just said...

Ixrec

@WadCheber Feel free to ask for that on meta. While I agree, fighting that rename is not the hill I want to die on. I might've made such a post if we hadn't gotten this new room.

Wad Cheber

@Catija I think we always agreed, I was just trying to explain (not justify or condone) the other side. There were people in Mos who had learned to see flags as an escalation of hostilities and conflicts, not a solution to them.

DCOPTimDowd

10:33 PM

@WadCheber What is it?

Wad Cheber

@Ixrec I'd rather ask Shog and keep it private.

Ixrec

that works too

Catija

@WadCheber Ah. That's fine.

Wad Cheber

@DCOPTimDowd "Valorum / Himarm poisoned this room; it is defunct."

DCOPTimDowd

@WadCheber Wow. That's jacked.

Wad Cheber

10:34 PM

It's just so provocative.

Catija

@WadCheber I don't think I ever disagreed with that but I also wanted to make sure that people who felt like they needed to flag due to not wanting a public outing of their feelings weren't blamed for feeling that way.

Slytherincess

I think, while the mods seem (seem!) to have little faith in the users, so do the users have little faith in the mods -- how do we get around this? Rhetorical question, mostly.

Wad Cheber

@Catija Agreed. It might even help for those people to understand that any backlash has more to do with our history than the current situation.

@Slytherincess My impression has been that SFF trusts SFF mods and outside mods who hang out here, but some SFF people are wary of some off-site mods, and VERY wary of Shog.

And as much as I have come to like Shog, he doesn't really do much to avoid creating/encouraging that dynamic.

Catija

@Slytherincess I don't think that's unfair... and I think the solution is the same that it's been for any sort of social interaction... communication. I've seen so many people afraid to even talk about things related to this and I don't really understand why. If we can have productive, constructive, non-emotional discussions, we can learn from them. If that needs to happen in another space, like a gallery room about chat moderation, we can do that.

Wad Cheber

He's reasonable in private, but very caustic when he gets involved in an in-room issue.

Ixrec

10:39 PM

That's exactly the reason I don't want flags to be a first resort. Most of the time we can have an honest conversation with the "offender" since most people can be reasoned with.

Edlothiad

@Riker Dinosaur Fish Floof

Catija

Well, OK... I understand that no one wants to meet the wrath of any of the CMs... but I personally don't think that's a worry.

Edlothiad

Wad Cheber

@Ixrec Amen

DCOPTimDowd

@Edlothiad Why is it stuck in a fence?

Wad Cheber

10:40 PM

@DCOPTimDowd Because the fence holes are smaller than his body.

Catija

@DCOPTimDowd Some sort of weather event?

Mithrandir

@Edlothiad O_O

Edlothiad

@DCOPTimDowd Your man got thrown in a flood, poor dinofloof

@Mithrandir Isn't it bed time? Or do I have your timezone very wrong?

Mithrandir

@Edlothiad it's 1 30 am, so you can say that

*40

Edlothiad

On a school night?!

Mithrandir

10:45 PM

School? I don't go to school

I'm homeschooled

I have to be up at 8 though

Edlothiad

@Mithrandir Ah ok, that's interesting

was wondering how you had so much time for SE

Mithrandir

Anyway, I'm tired. \o/

Slytherincess

@Catija I would be more than happy to volunteer to represent Mos, should this come to pass. I think I'm a reasonable person and I'm not afraid of Shog ;)

Tango

Well, had to follow the trail, but I found the new chat room.

Ixrec

welcome back

user132126

11:00 PM

Time to eat dinner!

user132126

I'll finish my renaming meta after.

user132126

Maybe.

Tango

I hope this room stays the friendly place I saw when I was able to be around for chat quite a bit in the earlier days of this site.

2

Ixrec

Right now, our number one complaint is spending too much time on fluffy animal pictures (literally). So I assume we're good.

Catija

@Slytherincess I don't know that I have any sort of control over that... I wasn't even sure what or how it would be implemented... Though I was mostly thinking that it would relate to SFF specifically, not necessarily be a network-wide thing, though I'm sure some of what was discussed could be more broadly applied.

Tango

11:05 PM

@Ixrec Hmmm... I'll have to find something else.

@Ixrec: That's Tango. He's a chihuahua Jedi. He's got short hair so he's not fluffy.

Edlothiad

@Tango We don't discriminate, they're all floofs

Catija

I don't know that there's any reason that anyone interested in discussing it couldn't set up a space for it and either make it open to everyone or control access to some extent. There's a benefit in limiting the number of people who can speak but also the issue of it seeming like only some users were given a voice.

Ixrec

one of the new running jokes is that "floof" is very, very broadly defined

so he's cool

Edlothiad

Todays not so fluffy fluffy animal

Catija

Case in point ^

Tango

11:07 PM

@Edlothiad Well, here's real floof!

Weird. The floof one disappeared.

Daily floof 2017-05-23

2

There. That's floof and fluff.

Riker

11:28 PM

@Edlothiad lol

@Tango is that yours?

Tango

@Riker Yes, both are mine. The Jedi is Tango, the other one is Mambo.

Riker

lol

Tango

@Riker They're both quite happy and love to cuddle and play.

Wad Cheber

Riker

@Tango mind if I edit this into the format for official daily floofs, and pin it?

Tango

11:36 PM

@Riker Sure. Ping me when you post it so I can see it.

Riker

gonna do it 24 minutes early

Tango

Actually, I'd rather see a floof issue in here than stuff that brings in big name mods.

Riker

?

Tango

I was reading up on why the old chat room got nuked. I was never in it when people got nasty or created problems, but I'd hear about them. Don't like dealing with crap like that.

Riker

@Edlothiad for the sake of floof: I've picked mambo to be tomorrow's floof

yours ended its run 24 min before the new UTC day, sorry

Tango

11:40 PM

@Riker: I have another good Mambo picture - not quite as floof, but I think it's cool.

And here's another SF&F based one with Tango:

@Riker: And this should give you more floof than you can handle - double dose.

Riker

too much floof

Tango

@Riker Weird. The other one won't upload.

Riker

huh

Tango

@Riker Okay, should work now. Last of my floof for a good while. Promise.

Riker

lol it's ok

Tango

11:48 PM

Riker

I might dig these up when I'm pressed for floofs

@Tango awww

lol, the black one (mambo?) is pushing the tan one out of the way

wait, is tango the tan one?

Tango

@Riker Tango is the tri-colored and short haired. Mambo is long haird and the black and white one. Tango has become alpha. (That last picture was back when they were still puppies.) At first Mambo was all over the place, but he's calmed down and loves to cuddle up. Tango is scary smart and can get bored and need things to do.

Babelfish

0

Q: Is Cut Lawquane's inhibitor chip activated?

Like all clones, he has an inhibitor chip implanted to ensure absolute obedience to Order 66 when the time finally comes to execute it. However, Cut Lawquane had deserted the GAR and so most probably not present when the order was given. If he ever encounters a Jedi thereafter, how will he react...

star-wars the-clone-wars order-66

Riker

@Tango lol

I find it amusing that the tan one is named tan-go

Tango

@Riker You're the first person who has ever noticed that. Cool, isn't it?

Riker

11:59 PM

yep :D

Transcript for

The Restaurant at the End of the Univ…