The APL Orchard

dzaima

01:09

@Zacharý dfns are just dfns, that syntax shouldn't interfere. Except if the dfn is preceded by ←, a {…} at a lines end will never be utilized in any way ever, so I'm using that for more syntax

and does RAD even have (or is planned to have) while/for/if statements?

Zacharý

@dzaima Yes&No: they will probably be operators.

dzaima

@Zacharý and you'll need to give them dfns as arguments?

Zacharý

Yeah. The grammar of RAD is pretty set in stone (i.e. I don't want to break anything else)

dzaima

@Zacharý will you do anything about ⍺/⍵ being overwritten/inaccessible in the inner dfns?

Zacharý

@dzaima As a weird consequence of how dfns work, if an inner dfn is called monadically, then it has access to the outside function's ⍺.

dzaima

01:21

@Zacharý I'm guessing that niladic dfns don't exist?

Zacharý

Yes/No, f&⍬ is a thing, but that's more boxing the function into a nilad.

The main change is that RAD is rankless. Everything is depth.

Oh yeah, and the workspace isn't a thing.

dzaima

@Zacharý so ⍵ is still inaccessible? I'd rather have special syntax than losing access to the arguments to a function

Zacharý

W←⍵ :p

dzaima

@Zacharý that's just ugly

Zacharý

@dzaima I might overload omega underbar to do some weird shenanigans (omega underbar is a function though)

RAD's probably more accurately named Rankless APL Dialelct with how close it is to normal APL.

Adám

06:21

@Zacharý IIRC, GNU APL has ⍺⍺ and ⍵⍵ refer to the caller's ⍺ and ⍵. ⍺⍺⍺ and ⍵⍵⍵ to the caller's caller, etc.

@dzaima So no trains? {⍵*2}{+/⍵} is a valid function.

dzaima

@Adám if alone on a line, the +/⍵ would never be called/used in any way though

and I think it's reasonable to have lone functions/ops in a line be syntax errors

also, I'm probably gonna have an op for if-else which would return the result of the path, or just for those who don't like special syntax

Adám

@dzaima What's the result of the path?

dzaima

@Adám e.g. {2}ifElse{3} ⊢ 1 returns 2

Adám

@dzaima ifElse←{⍺←⊢ ⋄ ⍵:⍺ ⍺⍺ ⍵ ⋄ ⍺ ⍵⍵ ⍵}?

dzaima

@Adám yeah, something like that.

Adám

06:34

@dzaima Then I can see how those operands need access to their caller's arguments. Wouldn't ifElse←{⍺⍺:⍺ ⋄ ⍵} make more sense, so you can write 2 (1 ifElse) 3?

dzaima

@Adám that'd evaluate both possibilities when only one is needed

replace 2 with calculating the 1E50th prime and getting the 3 will take a while.

Adám

@dzaima Ah, I see what you mean. And guards are unpleasant because it is awkward to merge back the two paths. How about a way to make non-terminating guards?

{
 v←1+⍵
 5>v:v+←1
    :2|v:v+←1
 ,⍨v
}

@dzaima ^ A leading : means under the same condition as above.

And of course you need the (already proposed) multiple guards being "AndIf"

dzaima

@Adám non-terminating guards were another thing I was thinking about, but 3 syntaxes is a bit much

Adám

@dzaima Yeah, and there's no obvious way to make the "else" clause. Maybe:

{
 v←1+⍵
 5>v:v+←1
    :2|v:v+←1
   ~:v+←10
 ,⍨v
}

dzaima

@Adám so that'd be a 2 item array of 1+⍵ if ≤5, otherwise 2+⍵ if even, else 3+⍵?

Adám

06:45

@dzaima No:

v←1+⍵
:if 5>⍵
    v+←1
    :If 2|v
        v+←1
    :EndIf
:EndIf
,⍨v

And the last example would be:

v←1+⍵
:if 5>⍵
    v+←1
    :If 2|v
        v+←1
    :EndIf
:Else    ⍝ literally :OrIf ~5>⍵
    v+←10
:EndIf
,⍨v

dzaima

@Adám in that it's unclear (other than indentation) whether the ~: is for the 1st or 2nd guard

Adám

@dzaima Good point, and using :~: will make your face look like that, and cause Pythonesque issues with moving code around.

dzaima

@Adám stacking the colons will have code moving problems too

Adám

@dzaima Yup. While I really dislike block indicators (not sure why), it may be the neatest solution if you don't want :Ends.

dzaima

@Adám the inability to wrap an if around a piece of code pretty much rules the idea out for me

how about making guards non-terminating and making anything able to be terminating by adding a trailing ;?

Adám

07:00

@dzaima As long as you stay functional, having absence of assignment indicate termination is adequate, imho. But how would you guard multiple expressions under one condition?

dzaima

@Adám dfns aren't going to be forced functional

Adám

@dzaima They already aren't. If "monadic" ← was "assign to nothing" (i.e. sink) it would be neater, though.

dzaima

if I do make classes a thing I want to be able to do obj.add 3 without it terminating the dfn if that returns something

Adám

@dzaima And ←obj.Add 3 is not good enough?

dzaima

@Adám that ← is a waste of precious typing time. It's completely pointless as without it the next line would literally never be called, so either it should error, or go forward

Adám

07:08

@dzaima Oh right, I forgot that dfns should just keep going if there are more code lines. But with non-terminating guards, you do need a way to say :Return. Still, you didn't answer how to do multiple things under a single condition.

dzaima

@Adám :Return ≡ trailing ;. For the multiple lines I could just wrap the lines in {} after the colon

so that's 4 different uses for {} already? :D

Adám

@dzaima Ah, the multi-line is almost like the current technique of guard:⍺{code ⋄ code}⍵. Trailing ; just seems un-APL-like somehow. Maybe a leading ← instead? And if you really want trailing, maybe →?

@dzaima Do you have implicit output?

dzaima

@Adám hm, a leading ← sounds nice

@Adám as in each line outputs if it isn't shy? no, that's an annoying feature imo

Adám

07:24

@dzaima Good (I agree) so then you don't need a shying feature, and leading ← is available to terminate, as if result← but dfns' results are never named.

dzaima

if the only use for shyness is whether or not a REPL should output a thing, it'd probably be worth it removing it and just making …← not implicitly output in the REPL

Adám

@dzaima I agree. Some edge cases maybe, e.g. should obj.Add 3 output in the REPL? and if so, what?

dzaima

@Adám making class functions have to worry about shyness feels pointless. not printing the result only for setting globals feels understandable because they're always readable afterwards whereas functions could have important output inaccessible after discarding the result (e.g. arrObj.pop)

ngn

08:25

@dzaima exactly what I think too

in The Nineteenth Byte, Jul 3 at 18:13, by ngn

@Zacharý why do you even need this "shy" stuff...

in The Nineteenth Byte, Jul 3 at 18:14, by ngn

@Zacharý there's a simpler way: if the leftmost part of the last expression is an assignment - don't print, otherwise - print

Adám

09:20

@ngn I'd rather that nothing in functions print unless explicit. But in REPL, everything prints except assignments. It is really annoying to have to hunt down the statement which generates rogue output.

ngn

@Adám oh yeah, definitely not in functions, I meant that only for the repl

or top-level expressions in a file that are not in any function

Adám

@ngn Oh, then then we all agree on how it should have been.

@ngn No, not even that.

ngn

we have very little left to argue about :)

Adám

@ngn That would mean that #! scripts implicitly print? You'd have to silence all side-effect expressions.

ngn

@Adám given that ngn/apl behaves as you describe, but ngn/k does not, I'm not sure which side I'm on :)

Adám

09:27

@ngn I wouldn't want to have to silence ⎕NPUT and GUI code, etc.

ngn

in k there's a special value that you can return (::) to indicate you don't want to print

@Adám would ⎕NPUT or the GUI code you're talking about ever return a value that would be useful to the caller?

dzaima

@ngn my example would be a pop function. Sometimes you want to just remove a value off the top of a stack, sometimes you actually care what the result is.

another example would be a success boolean. If you know that a thing is gonna succeed you don't care that it gives 1, but if you don't, the result can be useful

Adám

@ngn Yes.

@ngn ⍬⊤⍬

ngn

@dzaima if you have ::, this one's easy - return :: on success and a useful value otherwise

Adám

09:44

@ngn Hm, ⍬⊤⍬ should have a symbol, like ⍬.

ngn

@Adám ah, i thought that was an apl emoji :)

@Adám so, 0 0⍴0?

Adám

@ngn Yes.

ngn

@Adám that's a valid array, you need something separate as ::

Adám

@ngn Isn't :: a valid array?

dzaima

@ngn it doesn't print anything though

ngn

09:48

for pop(), ⎕NPUT, and the GUI, I think one just have to make up one's mind... can't have it both ways

@Adám it's actually a function (those are first-class values in k)

dzaima

@ngn yes you can

ngn

the identity function

@dzaima well yes... with shyness?

dzaima

@ngn well if I'd call arr.pop in a REPL I think it'd still be useful to have the result get printed

ngn

@dzaima so you're with Adam then - if it's a repl do one thing, if it's a file - another

dzaima

@ngn it makes sense to me that there'd be a distinction - a REPL is for a human to use. A file is for a computer.

ngn

09:54

@dzaima sometimes I like to pipe code into my interpreter - it's indistinguishable from a repl

so I wouldn't want to have it behave differently for $ interpreter code.file and $ interpreter <code.file or $ echo "code" | interpreter

dzaima

@ngn usually REPLs print some "hello"/"help() for help" thing or a > before each input line though

ngn

@dzaima mine doesn't :)

not even a stupid copyright notice, not even a one-space prompt

I have a separate repl.k wrapper script that prints a one-space prompt; if rlwrap weren't so buggy I wouldn't even have that

rlwrap has an -S option to give you a prompt, but when your interpreter doesn't respond within a certain timeout, it assumes it should print a prompt already, and when the result arrives it gets printed after the prompt...

Pavel

19:38

If you have a Linux machine you probably already have the APL keyboard layout installed

If not there are several options I'm sure Adám is about to list out

Adám

@Skidsdev How are you with mathematics?

Skidsdev

Depends what area. I'm alright with basic algebra, trig and vector maths

cos y'know, those ones are the important ones in 2d game dev :P

Adám

@Pavel Official answer.

Pavel

@Adám There's also things like the language bar

Adám

@Skidsdev OK. It is much easier to learn APL if you forget what the three letters stand for. Instead. Look at APL as a competitor to traditional mathematical notation. (I'll explain why it is better momentarily.) The fact that APL happens to also be machine executable is just a bonus.

Skidsdev

19:43

@Adám hmm, interesting

Adám

@Skidsdev So, traditional mathematical notation grew over centuries without overall planning, and accreted all kinds of notations with no discernible system. It is even ambiguous (want examples?) and so not directly machine executable. Not to mention that typesetting math is a nightmare.

Pavel

LaTeX is good

Ok, "acceptable". "good" is maybe the wrong word

dzaima

@Pavel the problem is that you need latex at all

Adám

@Skidsdev Ken Iverson (a mathematician and the inventor of APL) realised some patterns where math could be generalised and harmonised, which makes Iverson's notation much more streamlined and powerful. Oh, and it fits neatly on a single line — and is machine executable.

Skidsdev

@Adám hmm okay, so the language quite literally started as mathematical notation? Isn't that the premise for Mathematica too?

Pavel

19:48

No, Mathematica was always a programming tool

Adám

@Skidsdev Yes. The idea to make it into a programming language only came later. No, Mathematica tries to formalise existing maths so it can be machine executed.

Skidsdev

Oh fair enough

Pavel

I don't think APL and Mathematica are really all that comparable.

Adám

E.g. Iverson realised that ∑ and ∏ really are two instances of a general concept, namely reducing with a two-argument function, for instance + or ×.

So he (based on work by Oliver Heaviside) established two categories. Functions which take data and return data, and operators which take operands (they may be functions or data) and return (or "derive") functions.

Thus, the concept of reduction got its own symbol, / and sum in APL is +/ while product is ×/. (Yes, as a proper mathematical notation, APL uses × and ÷.)

Pavel

The mathematical terms are Function and Functor I believe

Adám

19:54

@Pavel Not function and higher-order function?

Ah, Wikipedia brings functor as an alternate name for that.

Pavel

In practice, Functor is a term used almost exclusively by Haskell elitists

Adám

Anyway, APLers call them functions and operators or, if they are linguisticly minded, verbs and adverbs/conjunctions.

Similarly, he recognised that dot, inner, cross, and matrix product really are the same operation, just applied to varying types of arguments (we'll get back to what those types are), but that is is not a single operation, but rather a composition of two two-argument functions; summation and multiplication. Thus he generalised the concept of dot-application with the symbol . and dot/inner/cross/matrix product are all +.× in APL.

Therefore, in APL, if you just use a plain × between two vectors, it means element-by-element multiplication, just as if you used +. No need to remember any special cases there.

@Skidsdev Understand the basic philosophy behind APL's functions/operators now?

Skidsdev

@Adám I think I get the concept yeah, I'm with you so far

Adám

@Skidsdev OK, let's look at the other fundamental part of APL: Arrays.

All data in APL resides in arrays. An array is a rectangular collection of numbers, characters and arrays, arranged along zero or more axes.

@Skidsdev Take a moment to let ^ sink in!

Pavel

I feel like that needs more explanation before it can sink in properly

How is, e.g. the value 5, an array

Adám

20:07

@Pavel Forget JSON arrays etc.

Just accept the fact that every data collection is called an array.

Pavel

5 still isn't "a rectangular collection"

Adám

Now each individual element of an array has a set of coordinates.

@Pavel Wait for it…

Skidsdev

Sorry if I'm a little slow to reply, dealing with some other stuff right now

Adám

@Skidsdev No problem at all.

dzaima

note that rectangular doesn't imply 2D, just that the dimensions of the object can completely define the shape

Adám

20:09

A set of coordinates is simply a list of positions along each of the axes of the array, in the canonical order of axes.

In a 3D array, we need exactly 3 coordinates, e.g. (3,1,4) to address an element.

In 2D array (a matrix/table), we need exactly 2 coordinates.

In a 1D array (a vector/list), we need exactly 1 coordinate.

In a 0D array (a scalar), we need exactly 0 coordinates.

So the number 5 is just a 0-dimensional array where the sole element has the coordinates [] (in JSON).

Pavel

woah

Adám

Indeed, if you use the index or the pick function on a scalar, and use the empty list as indexer, you will get that sole element.

Of course, any element of an array may itself be an N-dimensional array.

Btw, APL doesn't have strings. We just use character vectors. In every regard, characters and numbers are equivalent as data. (Well, you can't do arithmetic on characters, but other than that.)

@Skidsdev Understand the basic philosophy behind APL arrays now?

Skidsdev

Yeah that seems straightforward enough

I assume when referencing a scalar the 0 indices are implicit?

Adám

@Skidsdev I'm not sure what exactly you mean? You can always reference any array without indexing it, but of course, indexing into a scalar is a no-op.

Skidsdev

Sorry I mean referencing the sole element within the scalar

Do you need to explicitly reference the contents of the scalar, or is it implicit?

dzaima

20:21

@Skidsdev the []th item in 3 is exactly equal to 3

Adám

@Skidsdev A simple scalar is the whole of the array.

Skidsdev

Ah okay, I understand

Adám

@Skidsdev A little bit about values: Just like in mathematics, a number is a number is a number. You don't have to worry about type conversions or floating point inaccuracies. APL will handle those for you. Same thing goes for characters. A character is a character, no matter how many bits are needed to represent it. And those are the only two basic data types in APL. (There are a couple of other ones, but they are not for now. They still behave according to the same principles, though.)

Booleans are just the numbers 0 and 1.

Skidsdev

what's the capacity of APL numbers? Or is it like python's arbitrary integer thing?

Also I'm guessing that, like in C, a string is an array of characters?

oh you already said that

Adám

@Skidsdev APL implementations differ. Dyalog APL includes 128 bit decimal floats, which should give you enough precision and range for most purposes.

Skidsdev

20:28

ooh 128bit, fancy

H.PWiz

By default it's double precision floats

Adám

@H.PWiz Yeah, you have to manually activate 128 bit decimal floats, as it does have performance impact. Also, complex floats are limited to 2×64 bits of precision.

@Skidsdev But again, don't worry about the innards!

Skidsdev

right

Adám

@Skidsdev OK, APL uses ← for assignment so that = always can be equality, and all comparison functions are just normal arithmetic functions returning 0s or 1s.

The box (i.e. the computer/console) is appropriately designated with a box symbol ⎕ and assignment to that writes to stdout:

⎕←2+3

Dyalog APL

@Adám
5

Pavel

20:33

= checks for equality of scalars. So in the same way that (1 2) + (3 4) is (4 6), (1 2) = (1 3) is (1 0)

Adám

@Skidsdev Yeah, ^ and APL's list format is just juxtaposition, so the JSON list [1,2,3] is just 1 2 3 in APL. No unnecessary syntax there!

⎕← 1 2 = 3 4

Dyalog APL

@Adám
0 0

Adám

⎕←3 2=3 4

Dyalog APL

@Adám
1 0

Skidsdev

Ah okay

Pavel

20:36

⎕←1 2 ≡ 1 2

Dyalog APL

@Pavel
1

Skidsdev

I remember talking about the ⎕← construct before, because I asked if it was APL's "print" operator, and you explained it to me

Pavel

≡ checks arbitrary constructs for equality

Adám

@Skidsdev If you don't already have an APL input method, you should definitely go here so you can make your own experiments with the chat bot.

Skidsdev

oh that's really neat

⎕←4=4

Dyalog APL

20:41

@Skidsdev
1

Adám

@Skidsdev Thanks. We have almost all basic building blocks of APL down. How are you holding up? Do you want a quick intro to user defined functions?

Pavel

I think you skipped a step explaining how monadic/dyadic functions work

Skidsdev

@Adám Might be a good time to put it on hold for the night, I need to go sort out what im gunna do with my life now that I dont have a job :P

Adám

@Skidsdev Of course. Just ping me if you want more, or maybe I'll ask you when I see you around.

Skidsdev

I think I have a pretty good understanding of the concepts laid out so far, seems surprisingly straightforward actually

Adám

20:44

@Pavel Yeah, I should have included that when I was addressing rationalisation of traditional mathematics. Oh well, we'll get to it.

Skidsdev

Sounds good! Ill probably be around quite a bit more from now on.

Adám

@Skidsdev Looking forward!

Pavel

@Skidsdev It pretty much is really simple, the hardest part is learning all the keys IMO

(Also trains, but you don't need to worry about that yet)

Adám

@Pavel Have you seen my mnemonic keyboard map?

Pavel

@Adám I use it all the time

I just accidentally typed a ⍡ and am wondering what it does

Zacharý

20:46

@Pavel Nothing (at least in Dyalog)

Pavel

Well then why's it in my standard APL layout

Adám

@Pavel In Dyalog APL, nothing. As far as I know, NARS is the only one to use it; Convolution Operator.

Zacharý

It's just in the APL section of Unicode...

Pavel

Does Dyalog have it's own convolution operator?

(Also what's convolution)

Zacharý

Wait ... convolution like sum of two dice?

Adám

20:48

@Pavel Dyalog has ⌺ "Stencil" which is basically a generalised GoL operator.

Pavel

Nice

Adám

@Pavel NARS docs.

Pavel

I can't tell if this is a useful operation or not

It feels like it isn't, but I'm sure someone can come up with something

Adám

@Pavel Which one of them ⍡ or ⌺?

Pavel

Both come to think of it

Zacharý

20:50

Probably the former...

Adám

Convolution

In mathematics (and, in particular, functional analysis) convolution is a mathematical operation on two functions (f and g) to produce a third function that expresses how the shape of one is modified by the other. The term convolution refers to both the result function and to the process of computing it. Convolution is similar to cross-correlation. For discrete, real-valued functions, they differ only in a time reversal in one of the functions. For continuous functions, the cross-correlation operator is the adjoint of the convolution operator. It has applications that include probability,...

Zacharý

A lot of 2D things can be done with ⌺

Adám

Stencil code

Stencil codes are a class of iterative kernels which update array elements according to some fixed pattern, called a stencil. They are most commonly found in the codes of computer simulations, e.g. for computational fluid dynamics in the context of scientific and engineering applications. Other notable examples include solving partial differential equations, the Jacobi kernel, the Gauss–Seidel method, image processing and cellular automata. The regular structure of the arrays sets stencil codes apart from other modeling methods such as the Finite element method. Most finite difference codes...

Skidsdev

I know about convolution thanks to music

Adám

@Zacharý You mean nD, right?

Zacharý

20:52

@Adám I would think mostly used for 2D, but n-D, yes.

Adám

@Zacharý It can be useful for 1D too.

Zacharý

@Adám {⍺,/0,⍵,0} though

To everyone who competed in the student competition: good luck. It would be awesome if PPCG got 1st-3rd.

Pavel

Speaking of which, when are results anounced?

Adám

@Zacharý Uh, the 0s should say ((⌊0.5×⍺-1)⍴0⍴⊂⊃⍵) or something, no?

> Winners will be announced on Monday 3 September 2018.

Zacharý

The one thing I find frustrating about stencil is that it errors on small sizes.

Adám

20:59

@Zacharý Yes, I've logged the bug. Btw, dyadic f/ also errors on small sizes which is even more frustrating.

Zacharý

Well f/ erroring makes sense, it doesn't pad with prototypes.

Adám

@Zacharý No, quite on the contrary. It shouldn't error because it doesn't need to pad.

How many length-4 sub-arrays can you take from a length-2 array? None. So the result should be an empty vector of 4⍴the type of the first element..

Zacharý

I should add this to RAD at some point, now that the student competition's over.

Erik the Outgolfer

21:54

CMQ: are there any better APL interpreter/keyboard apps for Android than GEMESYS's? I don't mind that much regarding the variant, as long as there's a keyboard for it

the ones I've linked (including the one I've installed, sAPL) are borderline sub-par

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer APLKeys

@EriktheOutgolfer ^ is temporarily not on the play store. Should be back soon.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám yeah, just searched for it :/

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer You could compile it yourself:

github.com/e9gille/APLKeys

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám yeah, it looks like the ApkDownload version is 2 days older than the GH one (although I'm not sure if it's "official" in a sense)

looks like many .png files were changed, and a license has been added somewhere, so that's not unimportant

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Gil is busy working on RIDE, but somebody should fork it and update it a bit.

Erik the Outgolfer

22:20

@Adám the publisher Optima Systems Ltd doesn't seem to exist atm

pub:Optima Systems Ltd returns nothing

play.google.com/store/…

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Gil forgot to answer some questions Google sent him, so they took it all down. Optima still exists, though.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám forgot or is just too busy? (or maybe on vacation, who knows)

(note: not sure if you can answer this)

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer I can, because I asked what happened. He answered yesterday morning, saying he forgot and said he would follow up on it "now".

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám sounds like business (as in "busy"), or he just forgot again :-)...let's see, I don't demand much from an apparently hard-working man

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer How long does it take to regain listing on Play after passing the deadline on emailed questions from Google?

Erik the Outgolfer

22:31

@Adám putting that sentence on Google, I can see that "Once your app is removed, the published version of your app won't be available on Google Play until a compliant updated [sic] is submitted."

so it probably has to do with being sure he still wants the app in a public state

support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/… > Removals

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Hm, what is a compliant updated? ;-)

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám not sure, probably the "[sic]" I included myself ;)...hm, did Gil suddenly violate some policy though? I don't think so, since the app is there since September 21, 2014

Erik the Outgolfer

22:48

@Adám I just installed the keyboard, since I figured out 0.1.3 is indeed the latest version. unfortunately, it doesn't work for GEMESYS's sAPL, but it still looks useful. thanks

GEMESYS's is a DOS console and probably wants its own bytes :P

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Right, APLKeys it is a true Unicode. All the other APLs on play use special SBCSs.

Erik the Outgolfer

so, eh, I'll have to resort to Hacker's Keyboard for that for now

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer If you just want a little bit of APL on the phone, TryAPL may be best. I've updated the front end to be slightly responsive. The APL Keyboard won't work on mobile, but my language bar may just.

Erik the Outgolfer

23:02

@Adám eh, only with APL Keys, and for some chars the docs that pop up are inevitable :P

where "some chars" means "chars added after 14.1

Pavel

@Adám Except compiling android apps is hell

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Inevitable? Can you screenshot?

Pavel

Not as much of a hell as compiling iOS apps, but still hell

Adám

@Pavel Oh. I didn't know.

Pavel

There's a bunch of crap you have to download and configure so that everything can find the android libs

But at least you don't have to buy a mac

Erik the Outgolfer

23:11

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Toggle the left pane off, then use the bookmarklet language bar.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám let's see how I'll manage to fit that inside MIUI's Browser app

well, there are bookmarks

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Oh, you're using a Xiaomi phone.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám yeah, it's apparent from the fact that the buttons on the bottom row are reversed :P (normally, back goes to the left of home)

(and that I've mentioned it over TNB more than a week ago)

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Like Samsung.

@EriktheOutgolfer Can't you put Chrome on there?

Erik the Outgolfer

23:17

@Adám Chrome is already there, but I don't tend to use it that much, it hasn't really given me more satisfaction

like, it's in the form of bloatware

I've also installed Firefox

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