... it seems that it may take some uncomfortable stretching to try to fill all the Seder elements. Yachatz, for example, seems hard. This one?

From the link collection, I see three questions that I think should really make it in. I may come back and do some of this work later, but I can't right now, so feel free to grab it if you get there first.

1) judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/7965/… (100% on-point, with interesting, sourced answers)

2) judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/6863/… (Interesting and varied answers; second one's comments should be incorporated)

3) judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/6765 (One of the answers is particularly interesting. The question needs some work for legibility)

@IsaacMoses Did you mislink by accident?

@doubleaa I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have mislinked on purpose.

All: For Shulchan Orech, judaism.stackexchange.com/q/7311? If so, the answer would need an actual citation first, I think: anyone have Yalkut Yosef?

@IsaacMoses That is a stretch worthy of Rose Mary Woods.

@double aa still:

@msh210 ...so even if m'shulash means "triple" it's not the counterpart of mishne.

@SethJ I guess I sorta did, if by "mislink," you mean "stretch worthy of Rose Mary Woods."

@msh210 neither is Mishlesh (because it's not a word).

@SethJ It doesn't sound like one to me, but who knows. Mishlash OTOH does sound like a word, and I suspect is the counterpart of mishne if it exists.

@msh210, as I told @doubleaa, it's not in any of the several dictionaries I consulted.

@SethJ Fair enough. And I can't be bothered to search for examples in the wild (of Google Book Search) because there'll be too many false positives (from m'shalesh).

@SethJ Mishlash I said, not mishlesh (just above).

@msh210 I know. Same answer, though. I was checking paper dictionaries, and there were no false positives.

@SethJ Okay.

@IsaacMoses I'm still not getting it. Leviim guards and Yachatz? You mean guarding the afikoman from theft by the children?

@DoubleAA I assumed the only connection was that it's the middle ("Levi") matza. If there's another, then I may have to eat my words about Woods.

@msh210 That's about it. A stretch

@msh210, do you think we should generally upgrade the variety of our answer-verbs, as in meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/1558/2 ?

@IsaacMoses I haven't been paying attention to what they've been. If they're all "said" then yes, I do think so. But "asked" and "answered" are high-quality enough in most cases IMO. What do you think? And y'all?

How about 'zukked'?

@IsaacMoses that's a nice touch. I wish I'd thought of it earlier. If somebody wants to go through and spice up some of the "X said"s I wouldn't object. I initially gravitated to "said" because this struck me most closely as like some of the g'mara's discussions and that always seems to be amar. But variety is good too.

@DoubleAA :-) entfert

@msh210 I think we've been completely consistent about "asked", so we should probably leave those alone and focus on the responses.

@MonicaCellio I agree.

@MonicaCellio Ironic because there are so many more ways of saying asked in the gemara. מיתיבי מתקיך איבעיא etc.

@DoubleAA Nisht.

@DoubleAA Oy, rookie typo!

@DoubleAA, @msh210, @IsaacMoses, or anyone else who may know, is it Hag'alah or Haga'lah? Ie., is the Kametz under the Gimmel or the 'Ayin?

@SethJ Hag'ala, I think, with the kamatz under the 'ayin. Compare Hazmana, Hatra-a, Harchaka, etc. The first root letter gets a shva, and the second gets a kamatz

@SethJ ך and ף are right next to each other on the keyboard.

@IsaacMoses Sounds about right.

@MonicaCellio, was the March 18 due date meant to mean beginning of March 18 or end? In other words, shall we freeze submissions now? (At 28, I think that would be fine.) What's the next step, and who's supposed to take it? (Contacting Jin?)

@DoubleAA I was just teasing. I don't have a Hebrew keyboard. I hunt and peck, so sometimes if I'm not looking closely at the screen it's hard to see which one I've got.

@MonicaCellio ... BTW, well done on expecting 2-3 dozen entries.

@IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio, I've got one more question to ask/recommend, but I don't want to over-burden you guys (I've been totally delinquent, and I again offer my apologies). Maybe I'll propose it for next year's edition. :)

@SethJ לשנה הבאה, בספר כרוך There'll be plenty of room for whatever we left out this year, plus ten pages of the Mi Yodeya song.

(Re: my queries above, anyone else who knows or decides is welcome to respond, too.)

@IsaacMoses Not me...

It would be nice to include some extra Mi Yodeya numbers in this year's too.

@IsaacMoses 430 Mi Yodeya? ומושב בני ישראל אשר ישבו בארץ מצרים...

@IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio is editress in chief de facto (EICDF™). We can wait for her input. (Obviously, if she doesn't show up today for some reason, then we'll decide without her.)

@DoubleAA I think let's save it. To do it right will take space, footnotes, some explanations, etc.

@msh210 Cool

@DoubleAA Yeah; that's gonna take a while.

@msh210 Watch it.

Is this "not a real question"?

@msh210 I'm lost on the question, but I'm also overtired and (slightly) over-caffeinated at the moment, so I may just be having difficulty concentrating on reading a difficult question in non-ideal conditions.

@IsaacMoses Chat now associates your account with its parents at discuss.A51.se.

@msh210 Strange. I think I'm not the first person here this has happened to.

@IsaacMoses No. I think you can change it yourself; if not (and even if so), say the word and I'll be glad to.

@msh210 It reads like a weak-association kushya in the gemara. "Why does he hold a woman fasts in this case, but not in that case?"

@IsaacMoses I forget: is your metropolitan area of residence public knowledge on MY?

@msh210 It's in my user profile, isn't it?

@IsaacMoses /me opens up Bava Basra with a red pen. Not a real question. Not a real question. Not a real question....

@IsaacMoses Ah, so it is. Shoulda simply checked.

@msh210 (I had to go check. :)

@msh210 8^P

@msh210 Different goals. If I'm right, I think it's a weak question. Given that the actual question isn't made explicit, and the apparent weakness of the actual question, I'd say go ahead an close until he at least makes it more explicit. In so doing, he might will make it stronger than I'm assuming it is.

@msh210 Fixed. Any idea why that happened?

@msh210, you messed up some of the ellipses in the Hebrew. I don't know how you got the quotation marks to behave nicely, but hopefully, you can do the same for the dots.

@IsaacMoses I was thinking end of the day (interpreted loosely). I'll ping Jin tonight, and we'll lock the posts when he's ready to take over. Sound good?

So if anybody wants to get another question or two in, go for it.

(Dashing off to meet a chevruta; back later.)

@IsaacMoses (Re "different goals" -- yeah, I know, just kidding.)

@IsaacMoses Will do. Not this second.

@IsaacMoses No. I recommend a bug report on Meta.

@MonicaCellio Sounds good to me; thanks. Do we have a plan from him for his work? Is more input going to be needed from the community?

@msh210 No big deal

@IsaacMoses It seems SE will create a /memorableword URL that redirects to a Meta post that describes and links to the downloadable PDF. Everything else that I know you know (though it may be that others, especially our EICDF, know more than I).

@msh210 Thanks

@msh210 FWIW, I recommend /Passover2013 (No spelling ambiguity, opens the door for future projects) or /Passover . Either way, it'd be nice to have before content is sealed, since it would be good to have in the Intro or perhaps in the back a request for feedback on the project, and the landing page would be a good place to direct that to. ...

... Either it or another meta post it would link to could collect feedback, at least from people who have 5 rep on MY. (For those who don't perhaps an email address could be set up?)

@IsaacMoses We'd mentioned /haggadah (which, as you note, has spelling ambuigity), but Jin suggested something more generic (like /special IIRC) with the Meta post always about the current or most recent project. (I think the idea was that that way there'd be no need to have numerous redirection URLs.)

@IsaacMoses I agree though that having the URL in place before content is sealed would be helpful. But I think that should mean "sealed to Jin or whoever generates the PDF", not "sealed to us". He can always add it to the bottom of the title page (which is I think a good spot for it).

@msh210 But then, if someone finds this paper artifact in the future, when we've moved on to some new project, and visits /special, they'll see the new project and get confused. It's not like setting up redirects is so costly. Changing the single redirect to point to a new meta post for each project probably takes nearly as much time.

@IsaacMoses I think the idea was that the single redirect would point to the same Meta post each time, and the Meta post would be totally redone for each new project. But your point about someone's finding the paper later is a good one: let me ping @jin .

@msh210 I guess the landing page could be something like "The current special project is this. Here's a list of links to past special projects. But it just seems messy to me. I see how that would decouple this sort of effort from requiring dev attention.

@msh210 I think it'd be nice to say something about how this is new and we invite feedback in the intro.

:8566183 ... I'd add it in now, but I'd like to get word on how we'll be inviting feedback first. It's a little atypical to publish something publicly and have a feedback mechanism that's only open to people who have jumped through a certain (albeit relatively low) hoop of affiliation.

@IsaacMoses Yes, and it'd be nice to have the short URL for that, but it's not strictly necessary. We can invite feedback at the URL listed in the front without mentioning it. (Ugly, I know.)

@IsaacMoses Anyone can create a GMail/Hotmail/YourFavoriteFreeEMailAccountProvider account and add the URL to the meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/1550. (But if most people try it, I'll revert the edit. :-))

@msh210 Can we set up a Google Form or a gmail address that, e.g., the current mods have access to the submissions to?

@IsaacMoses I've just set up mi.yodeya as a GMail account name.

@msh210 Ah. Beat me to it. Cool!

@IsaacMoses That doesn't mean I just decided unilaterally that we're using it. But at least we have it if we decide to use it.

@IsaacMoses plus.google.com/u/0/113442420959106911038/about

@msh210 Stylish pic! FYI, I've found this advice helpful for making a gmail account reliably forward to multiple people.

@IsaacMoses Thanks!

@msh210 meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/revisions/1550/4

@msh210 I'd request that you consider re-posting anything that you consider useful (and not said yet) that you get in the email, stripped of identifying information, as answers to the feedback meta post

@IsaacMoses this is what I was envisioning -- a single landing page (post on meta) that lists all projects, newest first. Like software-download pages that support multiple versions.

@MonicaCellio It sounds reasonable to me, too. A separate URL for each would be nice, but would (as you noted, @IsaacMoses) require more time from SE employees.

@IsaacMoses @msh210 all: I think (pending confirmation from Jin) that we'll hand over the material, he'll import it into a nice document, he'll probably have questions for us along the way, and he'll probably want us to look at a draft somewhere along the line. But after today we're done with content-generation with one exception (below), and we should set up the landing page sometime in the next week. I'll ask Jin about including the "nice" URL for that (that's why I asked in advnace about it).

@MonicaCellio Sound like akin to "You can download the latest version of Office" at Microsoft.com/latest_software .

@IsaacMoses l'havdil

The one additional piece of content we need to generate is the credits/thank-you page at the end -- links for all the contributors and thanks to all the people who helped edit.

@msh210 but we won't ask for a credit-card number first. :-)

@MonicaCellio File as an answer sub Part 4 (like the intro is an answer sub Part 1)?

Oops that was supposed to be to @IsaacMoses.

@msh210 sounds good.

@MonicaCellio @msh210 I still think it's a bit cumbersome, but I understand the benefits of making content projects independent of devs. (See also: setting up a gmail account for feedback instead of asking for a dedicated @yodeya.com account)

@IsaacMoses ...which might require setting up a mail server.

@MonicaCellio So (excuse me if we've been through this already, which I think we have), the "Contributors" links from the bottom of each submission won't be printed with that submission, but will instead be gathered into a list of all unique contributors, which will go in the credits? (fine with me, if so)

@IsaacMoses We don't have any name overlaps do we? (Two avis or the like.)

@msh210 I didn't need a mail server to make [email protected] work for me, but how SE handles DNS may be different in that respect.

@IsaacMoses I know nothing about this (in general, not just w.r.t. SE).

@msh210 I don't think so (not too many of those, B"H, in our membership), with the exception of two Fred accounts that need to be merged.

@IsaacMoses If they're not merged we will probably have to treat them as separate for copyright purposes. :-/ (IANAL.) Do both have contributions to the Haggadah?

@msh210 meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/1538/2 and see the underlying MY Q&A.

@MonicaCellio Does he have a target completion date?

@IsaacMoses this is what I thought we decided one day in chat to do. That is, we were staging them in the individual contributions, but with the idea of gathering them up into one list (since people's names are already with the content).

@msh210 I haven't seen any name overlaps go by, aside from Fred's two accounts.

@MonicaCellio I think you're right.

@IsaacMoses (Sigh.)

Need an IP lawyer.

@MonicaCellio ... and thanks to Jin, his typesetter colleague, and SEI, right?

@IsaacMoses I'll ask.

@IsaacMoses absolutely!

@msh210 Just get the accounts merged. (Anyway, SEI, in directing Jin to produce it for us, has taken responsibility for this project, so the danger of getting in trouble for violating SEI's license is low. MY users, AIUI, have no legal ownership of the material once they post it; SEI does. That SEI requires a link to the user profile is morally nice but legally SEI's choice, I think. That said, IANAL.)

@MonicaCellio Thanks

@IsaacMoses (re merged) Oh, thanks! How? (re trouble) The danger is in violating not SE's license but the original contributor's copyright. I think you're wrong that SE contributors no longer own their work. (Which is why some MSO answer to a complaint about another site that was mirroring SE without attribution said "not much we can do: each contributor should go complain" ro words to that efect.)

(re merged again) Oh, oops. I read "Just get" as "Just got".

@msh210 So each contributor retains ownership of their work and implicitly licenses it out according to the license defined by SEI? Also, doesn't SEI tell mods something like "leave IP issues to us"?

@IsaacMoses To your first question, yes, I believe so, except that it's explicit (in the fine print right at the bottom of each page) not implicit. (That's how Wikipedia and her sister sites work, too.)

@IsaacMoses To your second question, I don't know.

@msh210 Anyway, if you don't have the power/information to do the merge yourself, perhaps the relevant SE staff would be willing to take an expedited look at the case and do what it takes to get it done, to smooth out this wrinkle in our (MY/SE's) publication.

@IsaacMoses Yeah, I'm already amid asking them.

@msh210 Thanks

@IsaacMoses @msh210 would it make sense that there will be an "archive" section on the meta post? it'd contain past promotions, so people don't get confused.

@msh210 my reopen vote has expired. Just pinging you in case the recent edit made this reopenable.

@SethJ Looks good to me; thanks. @IsaacMoses, did you mean NARQ when you closed as unconstructive? If not, then why do you think it's (or it was) unconstructive?

Anyone remember a chatty comment thread on a question that got to my asking "hey, if people historically woke up in the middle of the night and had "two sleeps", doesn't that just blow wide open how we can interpret Makkath Bechoroth?" or something along those lines? I believe the question topic was only tangentially related to that topic, though.

@msh210? I seem to recall you engaging in my wild speculation.

@Jin Yeah, that can work.

@msh210 I believe @IsaacMoses closed it as a riddle (I just untagged "riddle").

@SethJ there are two questions that discuss two sleeps.

...each.

@Jin Hi! I was just getting ready to ping you here. :-) I guess an "archive" section would work; I had just been thinking of a reverse-chronological list, at least until it gets long. It'll take a while before we have enough publications/downloads to make "visual scan of the list" unworkable, I suspect.

I don't recall those comments specifically.

Anyway, @Jin, we're accumulating a table of contents with links to all the individual meta posts with the content, in order. I was hoping to turn that over to you tonight (we'll lock those meta posts when you say you're ready). We have one more section to write yet (today, I hope).

@SethJ @msh210 In its original form, it was a riddle (which now, I'd close as NARQ). I think you've now made it into a real, better, different question.

@Jin We'd like to include the "pretty" URL for the landing page in the print publication, for people who come across it on paper and want to get their own. Also, can you tell us the name of the person who'll be working with you so we can give proper credit?

@Jin finally, I assume you're going to at some point have a draft you want people to look at? Any idea when that would be, so we can plan for it?

@msh210 :) Where? There's one about polyphasic sleep, which i just skimmed and didn't find my comment. What's the other?

@SethJ "Not sure where he died first." heheh

@MonicaCellio @Jin ... and when you'll need comments by?

@SethJ see comments and answers to judaism.stackexchange.com/q/3208

@msh210 You rock. That's the one. If I can, I want to structure a question around this.

@msh210 I was hoping you'd respond with "Eh, maybe a little."

thesimpsonsforever.tumblr.com/post/7474638199

@IsaacMoses Not familiar with the episode.

> BART SIMPSON: It's ZZ Top. You guys rock. HASIDIC JEW: Eh, maybe a little.

@msh210 tv.com/shows/the-simpsons/…

@IsaacMoses Baruch Shekivanti!

@IsaacMoses :-)

@IsaacMoses, this made me think of you. jewishusedbooks.com/prodview.asp?idProduct=68639

I do not plan on purchasing it, but they are having a 40% off sale with the code Pesach. I wanted to let you know.

@SethJ Thanks! :) I've got that as part of my Pentateuch set. I wish his Psalms was either in print or available at a reasonable price on sites like this one, but alas, no and no.

FYI, @DoubleAA @IsaacMoses and @MonicaCellio, re: this guy chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8057124#8057124

I saw him again carrying a "Repent now" sign.

I may have mis-pinged @DoubleAA, if so, I apologize. Did I mean @HodofHod? Trying to re-read the transcript is throwing me off.

@SethJ Good advice.

@IsaacMoses Indeed.

@msh210 and @HodofHod if you're interested: shmuelkunda.com/the-longest-pessach or the master site: shmuelkunda.com/?ptype=store

All: I added a draft of the "thank you" page here. If you add any more questions, please add any new users to the list there. Also, I just quickly dashed off the text there for now; please feel free to improve. I won't have more time to focus on it until much later tonight.

Not sure if I should buy it now for the little ones. I guess even if they can't listen to it on Y"T, they can listen to it during Chol HaMo'ed even though I wouldn't (Sefirah).

@SethJ thanks! Site looks down now.

@HodofHod Oh no! I'm on it now. I'm afraid to refresh the page!

Yep, getting a 502

@HodofHod Not me.

Huh. Something on my side then.

Oh. working now.

@HodofHod Looks like it's run out of someone's house. I just called the number. Didn't sound very professional, but seems legit.

Probably his heirs

@Jin ^^^ on layout/formatting. The comment is on our table-of-contents post on meta.

All: I'm going to be out for a few hours. When I get back I'm planning to lock all the posts linked from the TOC except maybe the "thank you" page (since that's so new I'd like to give us a chance to work on it more, say until tomorrow sometime, unless Jin needs it right away).