waffles

Glad to hear it.

TiO has overtaken the Sandbox on the Community Ads.

@Dennis uh, what?

@Dennis Now we just need a set of Rendering options radio buttons: Raw, HTML/SVG, Netpbm,... etc.

You mean the square thingie for output cache?

@Dennis Just like that, yes, but round (radio buttons are round, checkboxes are square).

I completely misunderstood that. I thought you wanted render the checkboxes differently... >_>

@Dennis If HTML/SVG is selected, then STDOUT is embedded into the page instead of .output.

Yes, several format of graphical output (PNG, SVG, PPM, PDF, etc.) are all planned.

You just think of everything, don't you? ;-)

It's a rather frequent request, actually.

Now I have to go and see if Dyalog APL on TIO can create SVG...

There are some security implications though. HTML/SVG could result in XSS or browser-freezing links. Both are undesirable.

Also, dynamic terminal at some point.

so many cool features, so little time.

Do you mean a REPL or a terminal simulator w/control chararcters?

@Dennis Can you increase the workspace size? (=allotted memory)

Both are planned for some far away date, right?

@Adám I guess. How do I do that?

@Dennis When calling dyalog on the command line: maxws=64000 Set that number to a reasonable number. It is currently 16 MB

Testable with ⎕WA (Workspace Available)

I need 20 MB to load the SVG generation suite.

I have it at 2 GB, but that may be a bit much for TIO.

@Adám I'm not sure I understand. Would it be /opt/mdyalog/15.0/64/unicode/dyalog maxws=64000 -script tio.dyalog?

Or where does that setting go?

Looks right, but try MAXWS=64M

Actually, that doesn't matter, the default unit is KB

Oh, it's an environment variable.

Yes.

Alright, I set it to 128M.

Dyalog is a bit strange with settings. It collects them from all over the place. ini files, Windows registry, env vars, cmdline,...

Also legacy reasons, I presume.

Can't set it to 2 GiB as TIO only has 512 MiB of RAM...

Yes, and cross platform issues. It has run on everything from Zilog Z80 to RaspPi to Android Wear to supersized AIX...

That's fine. I'm crazy.

Yeah, Windows registry would be a problem on Linux...

@Dennis Nah... :-D

@Dennis Can you tell me where /ws/sharpplot.dws is located? I have problems loading it.

/opt/mdyalog/15.0/64/unicode/ws/sharpplot.dws

Just a sec, that might be my fault.

Could you try again?

@Dennis AH, yes, now it works without specifying path.

Great!

@Dennis Now I get a message that output was truncated at 128 KiB, but I only see one short line. I'm suspecting that output gets cut off at the first >

Link please?

@Dennis I found the problem. Too much whitespace!

Heh. So no issue on my side?

Maybe yes. The output is folded to a very narrow "window".

75 chars

I'll still need that link then.

tio.run/nexus/apl-dyalog#@/@ob@qjtgmPejcbGgDB//8A

You can try setting auto_pw=1 or maybe default_pw=999

Doesn't change anything, unfortunately.

Then I'll ask the linux/terminal gurus at the office within the hour.

@Dennis At least the SVG creation works fine: tio.run/nexus/apl-dyalog#@6/unFhanFqeWKn@qG@qX/…

@Dennis Can you add ⎕PW←9999 to the top of the users script?

In a little while.

@Adám Wouldn't it make more sense to just put it in the header? Normally, the wraps are rather nice, and I always try to replicate default behavior on TIO.

@Dennis I understand your sentiment, but a dynamic ⎕PW is only meaningful in an interactive session. I think the max-width is universally desirable here.

Alright. It will have to wait til tomorrow though. I need to get some sleep. Is 9999 the max value?

@Dennis Yes.

@Adám Alright, done.

@Dennis Cool.

Pretty sure TIO is what keeps this SE going

Nah, it did just fine before TIO. Verifying answers was a bit more difficult though.

TIO helps alot

Especially for me with crap internet so I don't have time to download a bunch of languages and dependencies

Can't we advertise TIO for the general programming community, like on SO?

I mean we can ask

SO doesn't have community ads.

I guess not then

How much do SO ads cost?

Starts at $500.

For the traffic SO gets, definitely.

If I ran TIO as a business, I'd go for it.

How would it make money? You've been pretty clear that you're not running ads in TIO.

Hence the if he ran it like a business

That.

W|A pro is why I hate my life sometimes

That would require implementing a ton of features to be feasible.

Yeah

But what other features do you really need?

I get image uploading support

but it is a Try it online not a Run your general code and stuff here online and if you pay me money then it works faster and lets you run programs for longer

@ChristopherPeart Compiler flags, terminal emulation, interactive input, graphical output, internet capability(?), permalinks stored serverside, a system for language authors to automatically update their language, more setting for things like making the output be in the form of a hexdump, syntax highlighting.

Just to name a few.

Internet capability will never happen.

If abused, it's real trouble. Nothing but a headache.

Well, what's the worst that can happen?

Criminal charges. If it's your server, you're responsible for what's done with it.

Oh yeah...

I've sort of just been thinking what people could do to TIO itself, but the sandboxing should prevent anything like that.

@Dennis Does that include those TCP Sockets JShell needs?

I'm willing to give user code as many liberties as possible on the server, but it has to stay on the server. I might look into a better form of communication between frontend and backend. That could route internet access through the client, so you'd get your own computer in trouble instead of mine. Not sure how feasible.

@Pavel I have an idea that might allow me to completely disconnect the arena from the internet. If I manage to do that, I could allow TCP/sockets.

^-^

But don't expect it too soon.

That's fine

@briantist This is what is says:

Assert failure(PID 7404 [0x00001cec], Thread: 7404 [0x1cec]): i[0] == W('\\') || i[0] == W('/')

Btw how was your talk?

@Dennis Eh, you have to pass of of the paths of -Platform_Assemblies_Paths as an absolute path... Why is that needed for some DLLs but not others?

How do you do the reply thing to your own messages?

Look up the message ID, enter it manually.

Oooohh

@Dennis hm not sure about that error. it looks like it's failing an assert that ensures a path starts with a path delimiter (so not a bare file, no ./ or whatever)

@Dennis talk was ok, definitely some interest on TIO. Doug Finke wanted me to tweet about it and include some key people on the PowerShell team and community, so: twitter.com/BrianScholer/status/831557535287095297

It's weirdly inconsistent. I pass two paths to that option, and only one of them has to be absolute...

@briantist Nice! :)

doh, I was already following the TIO account and forgot to tag it, but I didn't have room anyway

Yeah, 140 characters isn't a lot.

last night we referred to twitter as "English Golf"

How does that figure?

Heh, quite accurate. At least SMS had 160.

@StackExchange How does SE know about TIO?

yeah what just happened here?

Because I added a Twitter feed. When I retweeted, it picked up the tweet.

Btw, I'm rerunning crossgen against all DLLs I can find. It prints a lot of warnings, but it's taking a really long time. I guess that means that it's working.

ooo nice, would be great to see some startup time improvement

We'll see. I've built a new arena yesterday and it seems to be slightly faster. It's a pretty cheap VPS, so I guess 3 - 4 seconds isn't that bad.

There are languages that are a lot slower.

@Dennis DigitalOcean has now added Load Balancers!

Might be useful for TIO

@wat Yeah, I got the email too. It costs $20 per month. That money is better spent on more horse power.

@Dennis How much is currently being spent on droplets?

Also, what size are they?

At this moment, I'm using four $5 droplets. Some are for testing stuff though, as I can't do that on a live server.

I see

I currently have 3 $5 droplets running, one for dk0.us, dkudriavtsev.xyz, and the rest of the family, the other two are for inexpensivecomputers.net, one MySQL server, one web server.

also, I think I'm getting timeouts for TIO Nexus

That seems to total to more than 3 servers.

@wat I was going to exclaim about why you need a seperate server for MySQL but then I realized Wordpress

@Pavel huh?

One runs dk0.us and dkudriavtsev.xyz and all their attached subdomains and services.

One is a web server for inexpensivecomputers.net

One is a MySQL server for inexpensivecomputers.net

Oh, I kind of didn't realize you can run multiple domains on one server.

@Downgoat does wordpress overuse MySQL?

@Pavel Look up virtual hosts and nginx server blocks.

@Dennis can you upgrade TIO Cheddar to the Beta branch, if you have time?

I don't even use DNS anymore, i just have a wildcard entry and handle it in software.

@Pavel I'm not on any branch. I've installed Cheddar with npm.

so you can even type in adsflodfklskjfdsljsdkjh.dkudriavtsev.xyz and have it work (but with an SSL error)

@Dennis That's the bad outdated one.

Cheddar requires too much RAM to compile from source.

Swap?

Maybe at night. I can't compile something that resource intensive while TIO is being used.

@Downgoat this is why you need to put the new version on NPM

@Downgoat Is the npm version going to get updated or do I have no choice but to deal with this?

@Adám Zilog z80 - I had one of these as a kid

@Dennis Anything I should be aware of?

@AndrewSavinykh In fact, the name Dyalog comes from Dya(dic Systems) + (Zi)log.

@briantist I rebuilt everything I could, but it doesn't seem to change anything. There's a new executable (powershell.ni.exe) now, but I can't run it with mono, nor can the powershell executable be rebuilt. I might try to build PowerShell itself from source.

@AndrewSavinykh No, I just goofed something up when I edited the wrapper. There are some changes to pull, but that's it.

@Pavel can't update npm until I figure out windows weirdness

Windows?

@Downgoat Can't you distribute different versions for Unix and Windows?

Not the way npm works unfortunately

windows hates C++ apparently :/

Then make cheddar-lang-nix.

NPM-nix is a thing

@Dennis when you are done we need this scripted ;)

@Dennis We've built a new arena, ;)

Right, sorry.

@Dennis wait, I thought that powershell was core not mono????

But crossgen builds an exe file. That either runs with mono or not at all.

@Dennis can you try dotnet /path/to/coregen.exe

core and mono two completely separate execution environments. They may be compatible at some vert small subset, but they are defenitely completely separate

That's the lack of experience on my part. It works indeed with dotnet.

And it is a lot faster.

@Dennis eh not sure it's worth the effort. Like you said startup time isn't really that bad.

@briantist @AndrewSavinykh figured out what I was doing wrong. Compare tio.run/nexus/powershell#@6/kkZqTk6@jEJ5flJOiqPT//… and tio.run/nexus-dev/powershell#@6/kkZqTk6@jEJ5flJOiqPT//….

@Dennis both take 2 seconds?

Look at the user time, not the wall time. Wall time is irrelevant since it gets higher when multiple users are accessing the arena.

@Dennis start up time of powershell is hugely inconsistent on windows too. Sometimes I have to wait for 20 seconds or longer for it to start up and sometimes it takes under a second. On the same machine

That's the main reason I'm not really exited to troubleshoot it on linux, thank you for doing a great job!

At least it's consistently inconsistent. ;)

not much difference, is there?

I got 2.13 vs 1.41 when I ran it.

@AndrewSavinykh And keep in mind that the arena with the rebuilt PowerShell is the old one, which used to be a whole second slower.

@Dennis nice!

Thank you for suggesting this. :) I'll try to replicate my steps on the production servers now.

@Dennis Why does output consistently take 5 seconds to get? On TIOv1 it was much faster

Output for which language?

This takes under a second for me. tio.run/nexus/bash#@5@anJGvYGL0///XvHzd5MTkjFQA

@Dennis do you remember is assembly-as comes with gcc pacakge from dnf?

actually there is this magic dnf command you taught me. let me use that

binutils. probably required by gcc anyway

Is there a way to provide hexadecimal code points on input? I've tried things like \x05 and it doesn't honor the escape sequences. (Which is certainly reasonable behavior.) Does it use a different mechanism, or is it impossible at this time?

Depending on your browser and OS, you should be able to type them somehow. As a last resort, you can always modify the text area from the console.

Hexadecimal I/O is planned, but not yet implemented.

Okay, I'll keep prodding, then :)

Oh, before I forget, could you pull Chip for me?

Done.

Thank you@

@Dennis like Ruby and stuff

Is it possible to stream input from the brwoser, or is that too complex?

Oh, that. Incremental output has been disabled in favor of compression and stream separation.

...great

So if a challenge relies on looped printing and/or time intervals, it can't be tested.

It couldn't before anyway.

Actually, I meant the other way around: Streaming input from the browser to the server

As TIO is buffered output.

@wat That has never worked. There's really no sane way to do that with HTTP(S). I guess websockets could make that work, but what do you need streaming input for?

@Dennis Things like text games, I'm using TIO for non-PPCG use.

Websockets is what I meant.

Well, that would pretty much require rewriting the entire thing. At this points, TIO is an online interpreter, not an online REPL.

Hey, how are TIO links encoded..?

It's complicated. I won't be able to explain it well. Just look at the source code.

Good point, I forgot the source was released.

It's a JavaScript file that runs in your browser. It was always released. ;)

Blech, digging through people's source code is my least favorite thing to do of all time.