TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2012-12-19 (page 1 of 2)

tohecz

00:04

@egreg another problem is that it was 3 transactions and none of them was successful, but how do I prove it?

egreg

@tohecz If no ticket was issued the company will know. It happened also to me once, and the sum was put back in a couple of days.

tohecz

@egreg and was it a French company? French, where institutions download money from your account without your real consent?

egreg

@tohecz No, it was in Italy. Don't be afraid.

tohecz

thanks bud

percusse

@tohecz Can you do internet banking? there must be an option to complain about the transaction, it's independent from French etc. It's the Visa, Mastercard etc. that matters because they agree on international terms and they can't make exceptions. So no way you'll loose the money. Unless they issue the ticket.

tohecz

00:10

yes, I can of course, but it's a Czech card, I'm in France, etc etc

Speravir

@egreg This could be a candidate: The font “Kozuka” can somehow not be used in XeLaTeX on my system. I left a comment.

percusse

@tohecz That's not a problem for you to worry. It's the creditcard office's problem (which is usually located in the bank as a company but works independently)

They don't allow the banks to fiddle with their stuff.

tohecz

@percusse ok, I'll see what happens tomorrow when the money is supposed to be really withdrawn. And if it gets withdrawn, they see an angry letter from me

percusse

@tohecz Instead of anger use consumer buzz words such as fraud, online theft phishing etc. That will draw their attention. They don't give a damn about an angry customer.

tohecz

@percusse ok

ricmarques

00:14

Hi everyone! :) I just added my 2nd number guess to the "Who Wants to Win a LaTeX Book?" post in Meta. I edited the question to add the number. I thought the graph got updated automatically by editing the LaTex source code in the question (wrong guess!). I tried creating the PNG file with TexMaker + MiKTeX + MiKTeX's dvipng, but the "png" file is all "scrambled" to upload it to imgur. Any ideas, please? :-/

percusse

@ricmarques You ruined everything.... :P

tohecz

well, I travel to Czech Rep. in couple days, so an option is to come to the bank. And there they don't like people yelling that 300 EUR got stolen from their account.

ricmarques

@percusse: Oh no! Does that mean I just anticipated the End of The World by a whole... 2 days?! ;-)

percusse

@ricmarques So you are just missing the picture?

ricmarques

@percusse: BTW, I did not upload the generated image to imgur... Because I see that it's not looking well in my computer. Yes, I think I'm just missing the picture.

tohecz

00:17

and something for @egreg for a good night:

bcdb.com/cartoon_video/3182-Cat_And_Dupli-Cat.html

percusse

@ricmarques Done.

ricmarques

@percusse: Great. Many thanks! :D So, what should have I done instead to not ruin everything? :)

percusse

@ricmarques Updating the packages maybe and probably using pdflatex. Then taking the screenshot

egreg

@tohecz Just when the radio is playing K466. :)

tohecz

@egreg playing what?

egreg

00:21

@tohecz Mozart's piano concerto n. 20, K466

tohecz

@egreg oh ok

egreg

@tohecz Tom and Jerry are always nice, thanks

ricmarques

@percusse: Well, I generated the PDF well. The problem is I didn't find a quick way to convert from PDF to PNG (without doing a screen capture, save it to PNG and probably change the original dimensions by doing that). So I went the "DVI, DVI->PNG" route thinking that it should go well. I know... "Famous last words!", right? ;-)

tohecz

@egreg and somehow about you and @David : you are Cat, he is Dupli-Cat and the green tick is Jerry ;)

Alan Munn

@ricmarques \documentclass[border=4pt,png]{standalone}

David Carlisle

00:25

@tohecz after your last T&J pointers I got got my 9 year old hooked on old clips on youtube, he liked the robot cat one:-)

tohecz

@DavidCarlisle that one is soooo perfect :D

I don't like all 165 of them, but I surely like much more than a half

ricmarques

@AlanMunn Thanks for the tip. :) It's NOT working in my TexMaker setup. I just changed the "Quick Build" action to see if I could generate the PNG directly, but it didn't. The file compiles cleanly, the DVI file gets generated, but no PNG. Oh well... time to do some more "googling", I guess :)

percusse

@ricmarques haha. Indeed. I'm using Win+Firefox and I have a dual monitor setup so I'm using the Lightshot add-on (otherwise I just use AltGr+PrntScr -> Paint.exe -> select -> crop)

Alan Munn

@percusse Seems like an awful lot of work.

Speravir

Speaking again of Bug in MathTime Pro2 - Is there a workaround?. It is obviously now, that it is a bug. So shouldn’t it be closed then as TL? Can mafp edit the question later, if the bug will be fixed?

Alan Munn

00:29

@ricmarques This probably only works if you are using pdflatex not latex+dvips.

percusse

@AlanMunn I don't optimize my work. It's too stressful once you get into it. :D

Alan Munn

@percusse That's why you're still using Matlab? :P

tohecz

@Speravir I would not touch it anymore. There're certainly more localized questions that we leave

percusse

A constant feeling of Oh no, this can be done easier..... 3 months later you are writing Emacs stuff.

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn I almost always do as @percusse and crop in paint rather than use standalone, avoids artifacts from that package (and you can crop to the relevant part even if it is only part of a line)

percusse

00:31

@AlanMunn Ah touchè or touché. yeah one of them :P

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle I do that too, using the Mac's pdf previewer, but I'm finding for small examples, standalone is quick and simple.

Speravir

@tohecz OK, but that’s all our fault, then (with the other questions).

Alan Munn

@percusse é

percusse

French people need a separate mouse or a mini keyboard just for ` and ' keys.

tohecz

@Speravir I'm not sure. I'm not so fast on closing questions, as soon as they are answerable. I only wanted to le the OP know that the right thing to do is to report it.

@percusse no, they have it somewhere. Like we with the Czech ěščřžýáíéúůóďťň

ricmarques

00:34

@percusse @percusse / @DavidCarlisle / @AlanMunn: OK, thanks for the info. I guess I'll go for the "screen capture" next time. I'll just have to pay attention to the image original dimensions (height and width)

Speravir

@tohecz : @egreg did this in his answer. But I meant the other questions now …

percusse

@tohecz At the expense of shifting to press punctuation or numbers right. My neighbour was French and it was crazy.

Alan Munn

tohecz

@percusse zeah, numbers are shifted

percusse

@tohecz Zat iz ze most terribilé zing.

tohecz

00:36

@AlanMunn certainly a new one. The old French one had (has) all accented letters in the first row (it was necessary in the typewriter) and c has to be in the last row (because of cedille)

Alan Munn

@tohecz This is the Canadian version.

ricmarques

@tohecz Right, as we do in Portugal, i.e. the keyboards already have the accented characters - like "ç" - or the "accent symbols" - like "~" - so we can type the "letters with accents" by pressing the "accent symbol" followed by the letter to be accented to get, for instance, "ã". Hmmm... "Clear as mud?" :-/

tohecz

@percusse you get used to it. Actually, the most important thing in LaTeX is Ctrl+Shift, we don't have {} on our keyboard, and anyways I do all programming on us-intl

Speravir

AZERTY

AZERTY is a specific layout for the characters of the Latin alphabet on typewriter keys and computer keyboards. The layout takes its name from the first six letters to appear on the first row of alphabetical keys. Like the German QEWERTZ layout, it is modeled on the English QWERTY layout. It is used by most French speakers based in Europe, though France and Belgium each have their own national variations on the layout. The French speaking part of Switzerland uses the Swiss QWERTZ keyboard. Most of the citizens of Quebec, the French-speaking province of Canada, use a QWERTY keyboard that ...

tohecz

@ricmarques to me, clear as a water ;)

ricmarques

00:38

@tohecz :)

Alan Munn

This is the French version:

tohecz

@Speravir I am in France, so I know. The first thing to get from the tech guy was an english keyboard, as long as I had French, I had to do everything with closed eyes and us-intl layout

Speravir

@tohecz YOU know, others seem not.

ricmarques

@AlanMunn My laptop keyboard is QWERTY... but it has the accented characters / accent symbols. Let me try to find some image of it.

tohecz

@ricmarques and do you have a multi-layout keyboard like me? :D

ricmarques

00:40

@tohecz I don't think so... But I'll have to check what "multi-layout" means in this context.

Alan Munn

@tohecz When I was in Berlin, the German kezboard was just slightlz different from the English kezboard so zou would get some funnz errors.

Speravir

@Speravir There is something wrong in it: In Germany and Austria it is the QWERTZ keyboard (one “E” less):

QWERTZ

The QWERTZ or QWERTZU keyboard is a widely used computer and typewriter keyboard layout that is mostly used in Central Europe. The name comes from the first six letters at the top left of the keyboard: Q, W, E, R, T, and Z. The QWERTZ layout differs from the QWERTY layout in four major ways: * The positions of the "Z" and "Y" keys are switched, this change being made for two major reasons: :* "Z" is a much more common letter than "Y" in German; the latter rarely appears outside words whose spellings reflect either their importation from a foreign language or the Hellenization of an...

tohecz

@ricmarques voila:

Alan Munn

@tohecz Eeek!

ricmarques

@tohecz Nope, no need for that for us :)

tohecz

00:42

@AlanMunn mine is not so complicated, but I've seen such ones

ricmarques

I guess it will be easier if I just take a photo of mine. Let me try it...

Speravir

What makes the backticks for Germans a bit difficult, as they are so called dead keys: To put them alone have to press ``` followed by pressing the space key. You may have norticed, that sometimes at least I forget after that to press the space key a second time.

tohecz

@ricmarques well, you hardly take a photo of your notebook keyboard with your notebook webcam, the concept of geometry is against

Speravir

@AlanMunn Oh, sorry. I did not notice …

ricmarques

@tohecz Who said I was going to use the notebook's webcam to take a photo of the notebook keyboard? :)

tohecz

00:45

@ricmarques that was an explanation why I didn't photo it but better got an image from the internet

percusse

Well then look at this baby... world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html

I'm gonna use it in every Why TeX does this like that? -Well it was designed with a keyboard like this :)

Alan Munn

@percusse Isn't that an APL keyboard? I haven't seen one in years. APL is such a cool language, but if you look away from the code you write for more than 10 minutes you can't understand what it does anymore.

David Carlisle

𝐂𝐚𝐧 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐭𝐲𝐩𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐨𝐧 𝐲𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐤𝐞𝐲𝐛𝐨𝐚𝐫𝐝?

3

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle Show-off.

percusse

this

2

egreg

00:49

@percusse This statement is false

percusse

@AlanMunn I don't know but you can see the Emacs keys at the left side

tohecz

@percusse and the Facebook one at the right one

ricmarques

Almost there...

percusse

@egreg Hahaha. Sorry I needed an exit in the most pragmatic way. Defeat was unavoidable.

@tohecz Indeed crazy times. Ok grandma, press the hyper button

Alan Munn

It's not actually an APL keyboard. This is, though.

percusse

00:53

@AlanMunn Klingon to Earth translator.

egreg

@percusse And what does "Hyper+Super+Meta+Control+Del" do? Self-destruction?

percusse

@egreg Probably compiles the TeX file.

David Carlisle

@egreg boots in to windows

percusse

@DavidCarlisle :-)

ricmarques

Best I could do with my mobile phone, a desk lamp and my "Mad IrfanView" crop skillz: imgur.com/mwOqp

Alan Munn

00:55

@egreg It only works on 12/21/12

percusse

loading MS-DOS 1.77 tape... Make sure you pressed the play button or contact your system administrator to press it for you

ricmarques

If I paste the direct JPG url to this chat window, will the image be resized to a standard size or will it appear in the original unresized size? I ask because it's PRETTY big! :-/

Speravir

Ooooh, I was just going to buy the Optimus Maximus keyboard, but it’s sold out.

percusse

@ricmarques I feel adventurous today

@Speravir You must be filthy rich to buy stuff from art lebedev

ricmarques

@percusse OK. Take cover everyone! ;-)

Ah... nice :)

Feel free to click it, zoom in / zoom out and navigate the keyboard ;-)

Speravir

01:00

@percusse Perhaps they have a secret wealth request in background and it just says it would be sold out? ;-)

percusse

@Speravir Oh that studio has incredible design items. But most of them are just concept designs. I'm surprised that they are actually selling it.

@Speravir For example I want this artlebedev.com/everything/reflectius

Speravir

@percusse GREAT!

ricmarques

OK. Time to sleep. Many thanks for the help with the graph @percusse :)

percusse

@ricmarques My pleasure.

ricmarques

:)

Bye everyone!

Speravir

01:07

Funny: International Ridibundus

Unluckily unavailable: Asian Ridibundus

Speravir

02:12

OMG:

2 hours ago, by Speravir

@egreg This could be a candidate: The font “Kozuka” can somehow not be used in XeLaTeX on my system. I left a comment.

This is really a shot in the dark: Security update for Windows lets fonts disappear. — Speravir 2 hours ago

That was it, Speravir! I can't believe it! The fonts disappear under certain applications even though they are actually there. If I open the PDF in SumatraPDF, they're visible! — user129552 16 mins ago

percusse

04:47

winterba.sh

Blog - Stack Exchange: Welcome to Winter Bash 2012!

Aarthi Devanathan on December 18, 2012

It’s been an amazing year for Stack Exchange, both as a network of experts and enthusiasts and as an organization. We launched twenty new sites, rolled out tons of user-requested features, and are helping 99% more visitors get answers than we were a year ago.

Last year, we celebrated the holidays on Gaming with Hat Dash, where users collected virtual hats by doing various (good, helpful) things on the site. They were sort of like festive, temporary badges (and, like badges, borrowed another good idea from the XBox – earning the ability to customize your avatar). …

Costi

07:07

hello, I am looking for help with best practices for a table

Joseph Wright

09:16

I see that there are still ~60 numbers to be taken in the win a book lottery

JLDiaz

how to type \\ as code?

`\`

typing \\ betwen bactkicks produces a single \ in the output

Joseph Wright

16

Q: How do I mark inline code?

How do I mark my inline code in questions and answers, and how can I mark code in comments?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright What's the plan, wait for all numbers to be taken?

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Up to @marcvandongen

JLDiaz

Testing: \\

@JosephWright Aha, Thanks :-)

Joseph Wright

09:19

@PauloCereda I think the plan is see what happens by Christmas and perhaps find an alternative approach

@PauloCereda For example, it could be 'nearest to the winning number' or 'all entries go in a hat'

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Ah I see.

I submitted the new checkcites yesterday, but no announcement so far. Perhaps something wrong happened?

David Carlisle

09:39

@PauloCereda pick the largest number as the winner, obviously

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle If I were in charge of the algorithm, I'd make you win for sure. :)

JLDiaz

It is 41 picked? I noticed it is the room number of this chat

Hmm.. it is not picked. Alas, I already did my choice

Why most answers for the lottery are "community wiki"?

Paulo Cereda

@JLDiaz I think once the question is marked CW, the other answers will follow.

JLDiaz

@PauloCereda Hmm.. Not sure but I think that wen I answered, my answer was not CW, but now it is...

unNaturhal

Good morning!

Paulo Cereda

09:53

@JLDiaz Hm interesting. Maybe when you edited it, the number of answers was above 30, which might trigger the "Let's CW it" action.

Bu I dunno.

@unNaturhal 'ello.

David Carlisle

10:14

@JLDiaz you can have two guesses now (new rules)

JLDiaz

@DavidCarlisle Oh! Quick!

unNaturhal

Do someone knows the correct use of the command \chapterintro in the class suftesi?

egreg

@unNaturhal It's essentially a \section* command, with automatically inserted title (the value of \chapterintroname); it goes in the TOC and makes a link if hyperref is loaded. So you say \chapterintro and then type the text of the chapter introduction.

unNaturhal

@egreg Just \chapterintro without brackets?

egreg

@unNaturhal Yes, it's pretty much equivalent to typing \section*{\chapterintroname}

Using it instead of explicitly saying \section*{Introduction} ensures uniformity throughout the document.

unNaturhal

10:29

@egreg Oh, nice.. and there's a way to write the introduction in multi-line matter, or it must be a single blob of text?

egreg

@unNaturhal What do you mean? The \chapterintro command produces the title, it can be followed by any amount of text you like.

\chapter{Title}
\chapterintro
In this chapter we talk about anything I like most.

And in very detailed manner.

\section{Start}
....

unNaturhal

Yes but, take this for example:
\chapterintro
This thesis is about something that I still don't know.
Some other text here.

egreg

@unNaturhal And?

unNaturhal

In this what, it ignores my new line and produce a single blob of text..

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal TeX always treats a newline in source as a space, use a blank line to start a paragraph

@unNaturhal That is unrelated to the chapterinto command which has finished well before that.

unNaturhal

10:39

@DavidCarlisle Mmmh.. I tried, but putting a new line it let the second "piece" to start with an "indentation" while the first one doesn't..

tohecz

It there any Unicode specialist? Are there Unicode symbols for headphones?

egreg

@unNaturhal It's normal that the first paragraph after a section title is not indented.

tohecz

@unNaturhal Yes, the indentation is there to visually separate the paragraphs, so it's not used for a first paragraph after a heading.

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal That again is standard typographic style that indentation is suppressed after a section heading (there are severl questions/answers on site about that) the style can be changed, depending what ypu want

unNaturhal

@egreg @tohecz Oh.. I'm sorry, I didn't know that it was a typographic feature.. my fault :D

tohecz

10:49

@unNaturhal everything in TeX is a typographical feature ... or misfeature, depending on who use it :p

David Carlisle

@tohecz U+1F3A7

egreg

@unNaturhal Not to push you away from this site, but we also have a forum in Italian, where the author of suftesi is very active: guitex.org

David Carlisle

@tohecz (but you may need to be using a Japanese mobile phone to have a font with support for that block)

JLDiaz

@tohecz Poor man's version: U+0B33

unNaturhal

@tohecz I'm using it for a week.. I think there are many thing I can mess up :P

@egreg Oh cool! :) thank you

tohecz

10:57

@DavidCarlisle ok thanks

David Carlisle

@tohecz If you have a font with that it probably also has the infamous U+1F4A9 which could be useful in some contexts

Paulo Cereda

11:27

LOL from Robin: (i'm all right, jack; i have a ctan site on my lan.)

:)

tohecz

11:43

@DavidCarlisle yeah, I would gladly send it to voyages-SNCF

egreg

I have 666 bronze badges and tomorrow is 2012-12-21. Do you think it means something? :)

7

Paulo Cereda

@egreg OMG

JLDiaz

12:00

@egreg also mod(143682, 9) = 6

and it is divisible by 66

tohecz

@egreg no, because tomorrow you'll have more of then :p

unNaturhal

12:24

There is a way to increase the leftmargin of a list? The dot goes out of the margin of the text above, but I would it indented a bit inside that margin.. is it possible?

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal well yes you can set lots of parameters for list layout, but your description sounds off. latex by default should never be setting text in the margin. Best to ask a question with a real example on site, discussing code in chat is hopeless

unNaturhal

@DavidCarlisle Oh I'm sorry.. I found a command in a tutorial called \leftmargin that seems to do what I need, but when I use it TeXworks gives back something that seems an error..

egreg

@unNaturhal That's a choice made in suftesi; if you want the usual behavior, issue the following class option: liststyle=indented

unNaturhal

@egreg Wonderful!! :D

It's exactly what I want :) thank you @egreg :)

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal don't mess with TeX primitives (especially inside a LaTeX list) there be dragons there.

unNaturhal

12:36

@DavidCarlisle What are TeX primitives? :o

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal (actually \leftmargin isn't a primitive:-) primitives are the commands defined by tex-the-program rather than higher level constricts of latex which are defined using those commands. It's like putting machine code in the middle of a high level program, if it works it can be useful, but things can go wrong...

egreg

@unNaturhal Messing with \leftmargin is something that you can try when you're more expert in the inner workings of LaTeX. You risk to break many things if you don't know what you're doing.

Costi

@DavidCarlisle Hello! Where should I put \newenvironment{mydescription}{\description\raggedright}{\enddescription}? In the preamble?

David Carlisle

@Costi anywhere before you want to use \begin{mydescription} (the preamble of the document, or in your own local class or package file or anywhere else that is convenient

unNaturhal

@DavidCarlisle Nice example :) I've understood thanks

@egreg Okay :) I prefer to avoid to mess up everything since I need to end this thesis in two day (today included)

Costi

12:45

@DavidCarlisle: still it does not work. Maybe it is because I have four words in the \item[]?

\item[lorem ipsum/lorem ipsum]

unNaturhal

I go to lunch! Bon apetite and thank for the help :) see ya in a few hour

David Carlisle

@egreg (glad you liked \active :-)

Costi

\documentclass[10pt,cleardoublepage=empty,twoside]{book}
\usepackage[a5paper]{geometry}
\usepackage{longtable}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage{booktabs}
\usepackage[english]{babel}
\renewcommand*\descriptionlabel[1]{\hbox to \textwidth{\hspace\labelsep
 \normalfont #1}}
 \newenvironment{mydescription}{\description\raggedright}{\enddescription}


\begin{document}

\subsubsection{Aenean Ipsum}

\begin{description}


\item[\textit{aenean ipsum}\slash \textit{aenean ipsum}]
aenean ipsum enim egestas dui amet, ut condimentum ipsum vel arcu ullamcorper, nec et quis

egreg

@Costi Shouldn't \raggedright go before \description?

David Carlisle

13:10

@egreg he put it where I told him to:-)

Paulo Cereda

13:32

Yes, the updated checkcites is on CTAN!

You don't need to learn Haskell to understand monads anymore than you need to learn Spanish to understand burritos. -- Doug Crockford

Tweeted by CompSciFact on December 18, 2012 at 3:02 PM

@DavidCarlisle: ^^

David Carlisle

13:55

yeh we need more regular expressions here:

x-query.com/pipermail/talk/2012-December/004004.html

Costi

@DavidCarlisle: no solutions for my dilemma? I am a she, btw :)

David Carlisle

@Costi sorry were you waiting for something (what's the dilema, ogh just noticed your code posted above you defined mydescription but still used description in your document so your environment isn't being used, is that the problem?

egreg

@Costi Here's my proposal

\documentclass[10pt,cleardoublepage=empty,twoside]{book}
\usepackage[a5paper]{geometry}
\usepackage{longtable}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage{booktabs}
\usepackage[english]{babel}
\renewcommand*\descriptionlabel[1]{\makebox[\textwidth][l]{\hspace\labelsep
 \normalfont #1}}
\newenvironment{mydescription}{\raggedright\description}{\enddescription}


\begin{document}

\subsubsection{Aenean Ipsum}

\begin{description}


\item[\textit{aenean ipsum}\slash \textit{aenean ipsum}]
aenean ipsum enim egestas dui amet, ut condimentum ipsum vel arcu ullamcorper, nec et quis

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle LOL

Costi

@DavidCarlisle @egreg no problem, I will try egreg proposal and I'll get back to you

David Carlisle

14:06

@Costi you still need to use \begin{mydescription} in the document (egreg didn't fix that bit in his code above)

Costi

@DavidCarlisle @egreg it works. Thank you!

My dissertation is becoming nicer and nicer because of your help.

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Yes, of course. My bad.

\documentclass[10pt,cleardoublepage=empty,twoside]{book}
\usepackage[a5paper]{geometry}
\usepackage{longtable}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage{booktabs}
\usepackage[english]{babel}
\renewcommand*\descriptionlabel[1]{\makebox[\textwidth][l]{\hspace\labelsep
 \normalfont #1}}
\newenvironment{mydescription}{\raggedright\description}{\enddescription}


\begin{document}

\subsubsection{Aenean Ipsum}

\begin{mydescription}

\item[\textit{aenean ipsum}\slash \textit{aenean ipsum}]
aenean ipsum enim egestas dui amet, ut condimentum ipsum vel arcu ullamcorper, nec et quis

tohecz

please, which is the German shorthand equivalent to

-\allowbreak

David Carlisle

14:54

"~ does something similar by the look of it

Or you could use -\𝔞𝔩𝔩𝔬𝔴𝔟𝔯𝔢𝔞𝔨

4

Paulo Cereda

15:06

@DavidCarlisle What kind of sorcery is this? :P

3

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda It's German.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle I meant 𝔞𝔩𝔩𝔬𝔴𝔟𝔯𝔢𝔞𝔨. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda See being Co Chair of the Math Working group and co-editor of MathML3 and stuff, I get to hear of important mathematical applications like:

ewellic.org/mathtext.html

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda You've got to love "Annoy the hell out of the Unicode Technical Committee!" as a headline feature in a software release note.

7

Paulo Cereda

15:16

@DavidCarlisle LMAO

tohecz

@DavidCarlisle Somehow, I'm not sure if we need this, I'm conservative. Somehow I find U+1F4A9 more useful than dozens of math alphabets, this one will soon people use in their FCB posts :)

David Carlisle

@tohecz It's Christmas (nearly) you are allowed things you don't really need

tohecz

@DavidCarlisle it seems to me more like "it's a prefix code capable of coding ℵ₀ symbols, let's use them all"

btw: Let's code all the natural numbers in unicode, so that we don't have to be stuck with the decimal numeration system!

David Carlisle

@tohecz There was a proposal that math alphabets be encoded in unicode by a small number of "variant selectors" so you could go G<fraktur selector> and it would compose to a fraktur G but the UTC didn't go for that and instead went for a slightly arbitrary set of fixed alphabets, but the good part about that is it gives a target for font makers to give a basic character set for mathematics, whereas a general fraktur combining variant selector would have suggested anything could be fraktur

tohecz

@DavidCarlisle ok, I understand the part about making clear what characters have to be made to say it is a "full math font".

anyways, the idea of coding the whole ℕ or even ℤ sounds great, doesn't it? :D

@DavidCarlisle not speaking about UTC being an unfortunate abbreviation of something else than The UTC :p

Paulo Cereda

16:03

@DavidCarlisle: First rule of the Unicode club: you don't talk about the Unicode club. :)

egreg

@tohecz I have the feeling that 21 bits are not sufficient. :)

Paulo Cereda

@egreg We need a prime number. :)

egreg

@PauloCereda 2^43112609 – 1

Paulo Cereda

@egreg :)

tohecz

@egreg I tought that Unicode is arbitrarily extensible ...

egreg

16:14

@PauloCereda Unicode at 43112609 bit should be sufficient for most purposes.

@tohecz Well, probably in theory it is. But 2^21 is more than 2 millions; there's plenty of space available.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg: what if we come up with a compound number? :)

egreg

@PauloCereda Well 2^21 – 1 is compound (and divisible by 7).

Paulo Cereda

@egreg :P

David Carlisle

@tohecz it is frozen "for all time" (until it becomes unfrozen:-) utf8 can encode arbitrary size, but utf16 can't and anyway operating system and browser implementers would kill you if you suggested extending beyond 10FFFF

Stephan Lehmke

tohecz

16:29

@StephanLehmke is it done in DocShape? :D

Stephan Lehmke

@tohecz Now that would be cool :-) No, I just wanted to give evidence that, as everybody knows, Germans talk in Fraktur letters.

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke AAAAH! That was the only part that I got. :)

Stephan Lehmke

Maybe I should make a fix to the german package so that all text will paste like this ;-)

Paulo Cereda

I wonder why mad scientists are always portrayed as Germans, with ze talk like thiz.

It's like Brazilians living in a jungle, with a monkey pet. :)

Stephan Lehmke

@PauloCereda I suppose this started in the 50s, when probably there were indeed a lot of mad german scientists freshly imported to the US.

egreg

16:39

Do we really need gematria and triskaidekaphobia tags? :)

@PauloCereda Talk like Frau Blucher?

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke ooh. :)

tohecz

@egreg no, they are meta tags, at least for this site ;)

Paulo Cereda

@egreg horses to rear up in fright

egreg

►

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke: When the Simpsons "went" to Brazil in an episode, Homer was kidnapped in Rio de Janeiro, and the next scene he's trapped in the Amazon. And apparently monkeys throw rocks at everybody in the Rio slums. :)

@egreg Yay!

Stephan Lehmke

16:44

@PauloCereda At least all the women are beautiful, and everybody can dance ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke Exactly! :)

David Carlisle

@StephanLehmke in the Simpsons, or in Brazil?

Stephan Lehmke

@DavidCarlisle In Brazil, as portrayed in B-Movies.

egreg

@PauloCereda We could add a fraublucher tag; when you click on it there's sound of neighing horses in the background

2

Paulo Cereda

@egreg That would be awesome. :)

egreg

16:46

@PauloCereda We could use it instead of dontdoit

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Agreed. :)

I need to post this:

►

I'm gonna suggest Joseph to declare the official hymn of the UK-TUG. :)

Stephan Lehmke

17:02

@PauloCereda Blocked by GEMA :-(

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke Oh. My. God. Noooo!

Stephan Lehmke

@PauloCereda What is it?

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke One of my favourite scenes from Mary Poppins, where Dick Van Dyke & friends perform Step in time. :)

@egreg: I'm slightly annoyed with the comments of the OP in the rich text question.

percusse

cocks the gun not on my watch!

egreg

@PauloCereda It's an annoying question, actually.

Stephan Lehmke

17:10

@PauloCereda Ah, that's what I suspected ;-) Luckily I have the movie on DVD, so I know what I'm watching tonite ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke Yay! :)

percusse

@PauloCereda I've never used LyX but if you know it do you think this would satisfy the OP rtf2latex2e.sourceforge.net

Stephan Lehmke

@PauloCereda TBH, I don't find them unreasonable. He's not asking for visual, but for structural properties of the copied text.

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke Perhaps what made me annoyed is the way he's asking. :)

Stephan Lehmke

Anyway, I'm not aware whether applications are providing sanely structured HTML nowadays. Of course parsing <span class= stuff will get out of hand, and last time I looked (in 2007) Word at least was doing everything via CSS.

Paulo Cereda

17:24

I'm looking at clipboard RTF support. :)

Stephan Lehmke

@PauloCereda I think HTML (sans CSS) would be the most effective approach.

percusse

I don't know the last versions of Office but RTF formatted text is probably coming from a terrible source which encodes the bold italic etc. stuff wrongly (as usual) and embedded in the punctuation. Typical case, you just press <kbd>Backspace</kbd> and delete the period and all the remaining text becomes bold. But if you delete it via <kbd>Del</kbd> then it doesn't change. I mean come on.

Stephan Lehmke

@percusse Well we used an RTF-to-XML parser which would render using LaTeX for the "budget plan" project in 2004. It wasn't that bad, but then we filtered out most of the visual stuff. So I can relate to the basic idea.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda I added a comment (OP will probably get annoyed with me now:-) tex.stackexchange.com/questions/87343/…

unNaturhal

Ehm.. excuse me.. there's the possibility that two or more packages generate conflicts and errors when I compile?

David Carlisle

17:29

@unNaturhal Not just a possibility that's the normal state (it requires planning by macro authors to make things not clash)

Paulo Cereda

@unNaturhal Yes! Fun times! :)

percusse

@unNaturhal it's the normal case

hehehehe

unNaturhal

Oh.. fantastic :/

David Carlisle

@percusse everyone is in agreement:-)

unNaturhal

How I can discover which packages create conflicts?

percusse

17:30

@DavidCarlisle I love the harmony

unNaturhal

TeXworks doesn't give back errors, but just freezes during the compiling process

percusse

@unNaturhal Just do a PhD and try to write a thesis they'll come to you as soon as possible. :-)

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal TeX has no encapsulation or scoping of names so you are loading code written by hundreds of people over a span of 30 years or so, all being defined in one global pool of command names.

unNaturhal

@percusse I'm writing a thesis (but just for a single exam, not for a PhD)

percusse

@unNaturhal See they already found you.

unNaturhal

17:32

@DavidCarlisle Maybe someone should implement namespaces :P

Stephan Lehmke

This comes from RTF, rendered through LaTeX (all visual stuff stripped off):

percusse

@unNaturhal Search for clash on the main site and you'll see that most of them are related to hyperref position in the preamble :P

Joseph Wright

@unNaturhal That's what internal prefixes are for

unNaturhal

@percusse Ye :/ there's a way to solve them?

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal well the latex3 code does (more or less) but only if you follow the rules

Joseph Wright

17:33

@DavidCarlisle Quite

unNaturhal

@percusse I removed hyperref, but the error is still there..

@JosephWright I neither know what is an internal prefix, sorry..

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal Note you don't have to run latex from your editor just open a command window and run pdflatex myfile and get direct feedback from TEx rather than relying on an editor to filter it for you. If the GUI helps, fine but if it gets in the way, don't use it

percusse

@StephanLehmke Don't get me wrong. I also love the idea of having portability however the RTF dictates what it should be instead of packing into manageble form for other platforms.

I'm pretty sure that it was Steve Jobs' idea :)

Stephan Lehmke

@PauloCereda Well he didn't say anything about fonts, but most of the comments he got were harping on that theme. I can empathize his blood pressure going up on that...

Joseph Wright

@unNaturhal Code-level way to separate out stuff

David Carlisle

17:36

@unNaturhal In internal package code (say longtable) in latex2e tend to use commands like \LT@xxxx so if no one else uses LT@ prefix longtable internals are separate from other packages. LaTEx3 conventions formalise that a bit more, but same idea

Paulo Cereda

@StephanLehmke :)

Great, now I'm implementing a RTF listener for my clipboard. Let me stop now before things get really scary.

unNaturhal

@DavidCarlisle I tried to run in from command line, but the error is quite the same..

@DavidCarlisle But if two or more packages uses the same prefix, they are totally useless right?

Stephan Lehmke

@percusse One of the big problems of RTF is that it's not enforcing structure in the form of proper nesting, which is probably owing to the way things are edited with word. It's really annoying to see that something which looks visually like one enumeration is really three of them with "continued" numbering and a lot of garbage inbetween, just because it's more or less structured by the timeline of editing steps.

Brent.Longborough

@tohecz : Spoilsport! We really needed a [gematria] tag (:-))

Joseph Wright

@unNaturhal Yes, but actually pretty rare. More awkward are user-level commands

Stephan Lehmke

17:39

Also it was a pain in the a%% to implement tab stops in LaTeX ;-)

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal Welll they have to use the same name to actually clash, if another package uses \LT@snighiwsk to do something then it won't clash with longtable even though all longtable's commands start with \LT

percusse

@StephanLehmke Indeed and that's a weird way of handling things. Maybe required for the multiple author modifications framework.

@Brent.Longborough Well well nice to see you around !!

unNaturhal

@JosephWright It gives me a "clash" on package geometry

@DavidCarlisle The problem now is: I don't know which are the prefixes of the packages that I'm using..

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal Most common clashes are single characters, babel language options often make individual characters like ; or " active with special definitions, lots of code can break if it is not expecting that. Or hyperref which tries to redefine essentially everything to make all cross referencing hypertext, intentionally "clashes"

@unNaturhal That's not a problem. It may not have any consistent prefix at all, it's only a convention which helps avoid clashes.

Joseph Wright

@unNaturhal Probably a rather more subtle thing: functionality clashes are a bigger issue than namespace ones

David Carlisle

17:44

@unNaturhal Do you mean the option clash error message? that is something else

unNaturhal

Wait :P

percusse

Or your packages load the same package in the background with different options mostly with xcolor and like .

unNaturhal

This is the error that I'm getting back

! LaTeX Error: Option clash for package geometry.

See the LaTeX manual or LaTeX Companion for explanation.
Type  H <return>  for immediate help.
 ...

l.8 \usepackage
               {graphicx}
?

David Carlisle

@percusse which I suspect is going to be the case (with geometry) when @unNaturhal comes back

see :-)

@unNaturhal you should always ask questions on site with code, if you had posted that first you could have saved all the description:-)

Brent.Longborough

@percusse Good to be back (for a little). Too much work interfering with my typography...

egreg

17:46

@unNaturhal The suftesi class already loads geometry. If you really need to change the page geometry, use the command form: \geometry{textwidth=...,...}

Paulo Cereda

@Brent.Longborough We should definitely add a support in arara. :)

percusse

@DavidCarlisle Where you do you get your eightballs. Mine is always silent.

Paulo Cereda

@percusse I believe David has a private instance of Psmith running locally. :)

By the way, I'll try to revive the bot next week. :)

percusse

@Brent.Longborough We saved hundreds of memoir questions for you :)

Brent.Longborough

@PauloCereda ([:=)

egreg

17:47

@unNaturhal Notice also that TeXworks doesn't freeze: when it finds an error, it stops waiting for input, hitting the return key is usually the good action.

Brent.Longborough

@percusse I know

unNaturhal

@DavidCarlisle I know but.. it's just a matter of time.. chat is faster than site (and on the site I often don't get answers..)

Paulo Cereda

@Brent.Longborough And speaking of memoir, I think we will port the arara manual to KOMA. /runs

unNaturhal

@egreg I'm not trying to change the geometry of the page.. it is just a package needed by TIKZ library..

@egreg Oh.. right :P

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal On average it's quicker if you post the exact error message (and code that produced it) than if you don't.

egreg

17:49

@unNaturhal Sorry, but without an example of code producing the error it's impossible to help more.

unNaturhal

@DavidCarlisle @DavidCarlisle @egreg How I can know what code generates the error? (I think that it's the latest I added.. but..)

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal well given the text of the error, a good guess would be the first 8 lines of your file (That's what the 8 in the bit you posted means)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Gematry! (sorry, I forgot we talk in English)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda not all the time: גימטריה

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle What?! No LTR? I'm very disappointed now.

unNaturhal

17:53

@egreg @DavidCarlisle Those are all the packages that I include pastebin.com/Gd9pbc96 as you cas see, I removed hyperref

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda It's automatically RTL no need for an override (try selecting it and see how the selection moves)

egreg

@unNaturhal What's landscape for?

Sorry, I've to catch the bus. I'll be back in half an hour

unNaturhal

@egreg Buh.. I copied it from here: texample.net/tikz/examples/entity-relationship-diagram

David Carlisle

@unNaturhal If you had done as the error message suggests and typed h it would have told you that it was the landscape option that is causing the problem

unNaturhal

@egreg Bon voyage :)

David Carlisle

17:56

:7340855 ! LaTeX Error: Option clash for package geometry.

See the LaTeX manual or LaTeX Companion for explanation.
Type  H <return>  for immediate help.
 ...

l.8 \usepackage
               {graphicx}
? h
The package geometry has already been loaded with options:
  []
There has now been an attempt to load it with options
  [landscape]
Adding the global options:
  ,landscape
to your \documentclass declaration may fix this.

unNaturhal

@DavidCarlisle It's a bad thing? I really don't know for what landscape stands for..

David Carlisle

All TeX error messages have further help if you enter h. Sometimes (as here) the help is actually helpful and tells you how to avoid the error

@unNaturhal well landscape (as opposed to portrait) just means you want the page on its side like a landscape painting wider than it is tall, that is not bad but loading geopmetry twice and saying you want landscape one time and not landscape the other time is "an option clash"

unNaturhal

@DavidCarlisle It's like there was a double declaration?

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