TeX, LaTeX and Friends

Paulo Cereda

08:21

@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh my!

quack

Paulo Cereda

08:36

@DavidCarlisle and @egreg Kannappan sends his best regards!

egreg

09:08

@PauloCereda Best regards from me!

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle should we say "don't use curious dots over the letters in your titles"?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ööh

David Carlisle

09:41

@PauloCereda that doesn't count

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh

egreg

@PauloCereda We've grown up knowing about Ööç

Paulo Cereda

@egreg ooh galaxies :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda That doesn't count either

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle EPOCH

Gudrun

10:28

Good morning, could I ask you for your feedback, please? I have here a minimum example for a CV. The content for the title is two lines long. But it seems this command does not keep the distance between the two lines. Or do I see it wrongly, please? Could you have a look, please?

My example is

\documentclass[11pt,a4paper,sans]{moderncv}
\usepackage{moderncvcompatibility}
\usepackage{moderncvstyleclassic}

\usepackage[left=1.7cm, right=1.7cm, top=1cm, bottom=1cm]{geometry}

\firstname{Max}
\familyname{Mustermann}

\title{Chemist\protect\\[0.2\baselineskip]
Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Software development, Instrumentation, R\&D}

\address{Musterhausen, Musterland}{}{}
\email{[email protected]}
\phone{+1 123456789}

\begin{document}

\makecvtitle

\section{Work Experience}

Joseph Wright

12:02

@PauloCereda github.com/latex3

2

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Thank you, looks way better now :)

David Carlisle

12:14

@PauloCereda so if on a new machine I installed `open jdk version 15.0.2 2021-01-19 and the old machine has java version "1.8.0_131" / Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.8.0_131-b11) what's the difference?:-) (I know I switched to openjdk but how does the numbering work these days?

installing something called "texlive" ....

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Remove the 1.* prefix and start counting again. :)

@DavidCarlisle Java 9 fixes this. :)

David Carlisle

12:29

@PauloCereda er so 9 is bigger than 15.0?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Hm? No, 9 < 15. :)

@DavidCarlisle 1.8 is Java 8, then 9 is Java 9, ... 15 is Java 15. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda ah so I think what I thought was right that 1.8 == 8 and then I seemed to have jumped a few releases to 15?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Some distros features version 11 as well, but you are right. :)

David Carlisle

version numbering is difficult

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@DavidCarlisle but java version numbering is probably undecidable – or at least NP-hard

Ulrike Fischer

12:32

@DavidCarlisle ? ah the java question

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes obviously java because version numbers for latex, or pdf or windows or tex are all so obviously monotonic

Paulo Cereda

$ sdk list java
================================================================================
Available Java Versions
================================================================================
 Vendor        | Use | Version      | Dist    | Status     | Identifier
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 AdoptOpenJDK  |     | 15.0.2.j9    | adpt    |            | 15.0.2.j9-adpt
               | >>> | 15.0.2.hs    | adpt    | installed  | 15.0.2.hs-adpt

@DavidCarlisle ^^

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle there is someting in the idea to use arbitrary town names, then at least everyone knows it has no meaning and you should better look up the order.

David Carlisle

texlive install got as far as jadetex, so I have all the important stuff

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

David Carlisle

12:39

@PauloCereda claims it'll take 55 minutes for a clean install, we'll see...

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ~~it's a trap~~ ooh

Harald Hanche-Olsen

They could say "the connection is probably lost," but it's more fun to do naive time-averaging to give you hope that if you wait around for 1,163 hours, it will finally finish.

4

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle oh did you upload it? I didn't see in the updates.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer not yet, but I am installing tex on a new machine and it just happened to be passing j... at that point

yo'

@DavidCarlisle xii is missing though then...

Ulrike Fischer

12:41

@DavidCarlisle ah ;-).

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer luahbtex now, do I need that?

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle if you want to make the next hyperref upload.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer lt 4.14 next...

Paulo Cereda

quack

Joseph Wright

12:57

@UlrikeFischer I'm thinking about ICC conversion: at the moment I'm minded just to have a fixed mapping based on number of components (to std gray/rgb/cmyk) - if we need more control later, we can add it

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer I see SVG mentions CIELAB: guess somehow I need to add support

Ulrike Fischer

13:16

@JosephWright for me the iccbased init code is not executed. And this here looks rather odd:

\cs_new_protected:Npn \@@_model_iccbased_aux:nnn #1#2#3
  {
    \@@_model_init:nnn {#2} {#1} { iccbased }
    \use:c { @@_model_devicen_parse_ #1 :nn } {#2} {#1}
    \exp_args:Nx \@@_backend_devicen_init:nnn
      { \file_full_name:n {#3} } {#1} {#2}
  }

why devicen here?

I think it should be \@@_backend_iccbased_init:nnn

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Ah, yes, so it should

@UlrikeFischer The \use:c line is right

@UlrikeFischer Until we integerate PDF management, I am a bit limited testing here :)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright ;-). Something is wrong with the color space name. When I do this

\color_model_new:nnn{icctest}{ICCbased}{file=sRGB.icc,components=3}
\color_set:nnn{blub}{icctest}{1,0.3,0.2}

then the colorspace dictionary says << /icctest 6 0 R >>. But in the stream you use /color1 CS 1.0 0.3 0.2 SCN.

yo'

14:35

note to self: it's not TeXas

4

Always Confused

15:40

1

Q: How do I use such multiple character ligature signs for Musical Notation?

I found a portion of music Ebook The Basics of North Indian Classical Music by Abha Saxena (Google books) (Google play bookstore) (free preview), and this is so far the only ebook I have seen that has successfully implemented the North Indian classical music notation in a form which is selectable...

Jairo A. del Rio

15:53

Does anybody know if that's the proper way in LaTeX? I suspect something may be rotten here:

\documentclass{article}
\makeatletter
\newcommand\fibonacci[2][0]%
	{\ifx#10\@dofibo{#2}\else\@dofibos{#1}{#2}\fi}
\def\@dofibo#1{\@dodofibo{1}{0}{#1}}
\def\@dodofibo#1#2#3%
	{\ifnum#3=0 #2%
	\else
	\@dodofibo{\the\numexpr#2+#1\relax}
	{#1}
	{\the\numexpr#3-1\relax}%
	\fi}
\def\@dofibos#1#2%
	{\ifnum#1=#2 \@dofibo{#1}\else%
	\@dofibo{#1}, \@dofibos{\the\numexpr#1+1\relax}{#2}%
	\fi}
\makeatother
\begin{document}
\fibonacci{10}
\fibonacci[8]{20}
\end{document}

I ask because of this question: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/584474/fibonacci-macro

David Carlisle

@JairoA.delRio \ifx#10 probably does wrong thing if #1 is 11

2

Jairo A. del Rio

@DavidCarlisle Oh, so, should I use an \ifnum check instead?

David Carlisle

@JairoA.delRio probably:-)

Jairo A. del Rio

@DavidCarlisle I'd use Lua instead, but it seems not many people here love LuaTeX :)

Paulo Cereda

4

@samcarter_waiting_for_summer twitter.com/hyxpk/status/1363881243394207751

Jairo A. del Rio

16:05

@DavidCarlisle Btw I realized the OP is not using e-TeX extensions. I give up :D

samcarter_waiting_for_summer

@PauloCereda Can't they just hide their hair under the black cloth-thingy?

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter_waiting_for_summer ooh

David Carlisle

@JairoA.delRio yes the code in the question is e-tex (I posted an answer)

@JairoA.delRio (s)he is using \unless and \numexpr so definitely this requires etex

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle shklee

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio What's wrong with eTeX?

Paulo Cereda

16:16

@JosephWright it's not ConTeXt?

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright I was suggesting the opposite: doing calculations without e-TeX is :) I wanted to answer a LaTeX question, but @DavidCarlisle was faster.

@PauloCereda lol

TeXnician

I don't know if it was shared in chat before but finl.xyz is an interesting write-up about what some people think could solve problems LaTeX has…

3

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician ooh

Jairo A. del Rio

@TeXnician I think some of the points discussed are already solved with LuaTeX, right?

TeXnician

@JairoA.delRio Many of them, yes. And abandoning active characters etc. does not seem like the best deal to make. Apart from writing this alternative in a memory-unsafe language :D

@JairoA.delRio Ah, and notice the points about exchanging the document class and keeping the markup. ConTeXt solves that part in one way ;)

Jairo A. del Rio

16:32

@TeXnician But, for many TeX users, it's like ConTeXt doesn't even exist as an alternative. Interesting attitude :)

Paulo Cereda

@JairoA.delRio ~~ConTeXt is not an alternative, it's the only way to solve problems~~ ooh a conundrum

Jairo A. del Rio

@PauloCereda Jokes aside, it's a matter of considering options. I remember having used LuaLaTeX because ConTeXt doesn't support Harfbuzz (and Hans is very reluctant to include external libraries into the engine). If something works, use it. If it doesn't, fix it or change it

Paulo Cereda

@JairoA.delRio we could also break existing stuff too. :)

Jairo A. del Rio

@PauloCereda That's the best part. <3

Paulo Cereda

@JairoA.delRio quack :)

Jairo A. del Rio

16:39

@PauloCereda Btw I think both LaTeX and ConTeXt concide here :D

Paulo Cereda

@JairoA.delRio ooh

David Carlisle

@TeXnician ah that's why Don H has re-appeared after all this time:-)

Joseph Wright

@TeXnician Some of this is ... quite often seen but never leads anywhere

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright this sounds suspiciously familiar ~~PR PR PR lovely PR wonderful PR~~

Jairo A. del Rio

Raindrops Keep Falling on my Head

►

Joseph Wright

16:42

@TeXnician The 7-bit business is quite funny, when LaTeX moved to default UTF-8 a few years ago and when that's the default for XeTeX and LuaTeX since forever

2

Jairo A. del Rio

> Unicode needs to be a first-class citizen. There’s no reason in 2020 for a document writer to have to type \’a instead of á in a document. UTF-8 is the new 7-bit ASCII.

ConTeXt already did it, first partially (bibliographies) and now totally in LMTX

Joseph Wright

@TeXnician Also on the LaTeX team agenda, and also hard

@JairoA.delRio Yes, a decision I really don't follow: there's a big difference between accepting UTF-8 as the standard input and Dropping useful ASCII input approaches: for the odd non-English word, for example, I'd much rather use backlash-accents than have to trawl around some character map GUI

Jairo A. del Rio

> So what can be done? I believe a complete rethink of LaTeX is necessary. The macro-based language of LaTeX is intellectually satisfying in many of the same ways that solving a sudoku puzzle or playing chess can be. It is not, however, a straightforward programming model and does not conform to any popular paradigm (I don’t think any other programming language is of similar structure).

LuaTeX partially solves this, doesn't it?

yo'

How can you search for packages with hyphens in titles in CTAN?

TeXnician

@JosephWright Yeah, exactly. And I have the feeling, his thingy will go the SILE way…

@JairoA.delRio The discussion on the list showed that many consider those shorthands useful, though.

Jairo A. del Rio

16:52

@JosephWright Oh, matter of taste. Hans is moving those shortcuts to a module so they are optional, but they certainly won't be the default

@TeXnician Yep, I noticed that.

TeXnician

@JairoA.delRio Yes, although really ConTeXt shows what it means because you have a high-level programming concept (e.g. tables) and do not need to manipulate tokens or insert something into the input stream.

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio This has come up time and again: it's of course true that one can write a document processor in lots of language, and there are lots of those. The challenge isn't in that sense technical, it's about getting a critical mass. Plus I still wonder about the edge cases: the odd place you need to do some 'programming' in the middle of a document

@TeXnician But it still uses macros, even with LTMX

@JairoA.delRio Like I say, this is what I don't get, but I suppose partly as to me this is a clear place it's breaking back-compatibly for ... what exactly?

TeXnician

Of course. But it makes programming them easier. Lua interfaces to TeX environments and commands is something LuaLaTeX is really missing. Generating tables is one of those things where using some string magic to insert the right amount of `&` is far inferior to something like `context.startxcell() context("content here") context.stopxcell()` in some loops with rows etc.
It is an alternative to what you actually want when programming many easy parts in TeX, simple repetitive loops and such. Of course, macro expansion is really useful, so it would be a shame to abandon it.

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio I think it's worth bearing in mind that the LaTeX Project plan was for a long time to re-write a new format, but the reason we've moved away from that is that we'd get (to a first approximation) no users

@TeXnician On tables specifically, I've not looked a the detail in ConTeXt: is Hans doing everything himself now or still using engine code at all (\halign or some Lua interface to it)?

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright Oh, I see and it makes more sense now. Certainly ConTeXt has been more audacious in that sense.

Joseph Wright

16:58

@TeXnician Programmatically generating tables is 'fun' but really misses that most of the time a good table for publication is short, focussed, and should stay far away from any auto-code!

TeXnician

@JosephWright I don't know the details. But I know that I love xtables, not only when using ConTeXt to typeset XML data but when generating things from databases as well.

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio Not really: Hans has to a first approximation no users anyway :)

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright lmao

@JosephWright It depends. AFAIK natural tables (\bTABLE ... \eTABLE) rely on MetaPost for color, backgrounds and some other complex details

TeXnician

@JosephWright I disagree. Typesetting catalogs and such needs automated typesetting. Getting things from a database (SQL, …) and then doing things in the Lua end is great. Simple example: Here in Germany, module descriptions for university courses tend to vary in length and attributes (depending on the type of module). When trying to typeset these things, doing "null"-checks in Lua and typesetting conditionally in the language where you retrieved the data, it is very important to have automation.

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio Well that partly comes down to a question of how much you encourage third-party code. There are external modules for ConTeXt, but very few compared to the scope of the core. Fine if they work for you, but ... more fun if they don't. For example, I'm not sure if TikZ is working properly on LuaMetaTeX (quite apart from all the specialist stuff one sees for academic subject areas)

TeXnician

17:02

@JosephWright Unfortunately, TikZ currently has some rough edges, although it still works. pgfplots is more interesting, last time I checked :D

Joseph Wright

@TeXnician The usual question of what one thinks of as a 'typical' use case: for me, TeX is mainly about theses, academic papers, etc., certainly in terms of numbers of end users, and in almost all cases long(er) tables there are data dumps rather then really useful acts of typesetting

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright Shading is broken :D Henri has informed to me LMTX is currently unsupported, so to avoid nuisances one should go back to MkIV

Joseph Wright

@TeXnician I'm not saying it's not easier in Lua, I'm more saying that this is a specialised area in the total set of .tex files in the world

@JairoA.delRio Ah, I've not followed all of the detail

@JairoA.delRio I've got to say I've never understood the MetaPost business: TikZ/pgf shows one can happily sort stuff in TeX + backend specials

TeXnician

@JosephWright Yes, of course. But a few years ago, I used TeX to typeset a catalog of abstracts of student theses. These were data dumps, insofar that they dumped a database into a document. But really, having TeX for that was great to automatically ensure that it is in a proper format for double-sided printing, have the abstracts be nicely typeset etc. There are cases where the best of both worlds is just what would be nice ;)

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright I don't use TikZ and I don't like it, but some days ago an user asked why didn't her/his example work. I provided a workaround with MetaPost, but that's not a real answer. The why is: LuaMetaTeX has dropped primitives necessary for TikZ in LuaTeX

Joseph Wright

17:07

@TeXnician Sure, I've done similar: I suppose I'm saying that when you get to doing that, you are a programmer not a document author, and that should be a small subset of TeX users (the point of both ConTeXt and LaTeX; plain TeX users are naturally programmers)

TeXnician

@JosephWright Performance is in a different order of magnitude :D

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio I know Hans has dropped loads of stuff; I'm not sure why you don't like abstratcting out PDF/PostScript/SVG stuff, but that's your call :)

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright well, it's a rather thin line. At the end of the day, each and every TeX user is a programmer, even if unbeknownst to them...

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright TikZ wasn't born when ConTeXt appeared for the first time

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio Sure, but at that time I'd have expected people to be sticking strictly to PostScript graphics

TeXnician

17:09

@JosephWright Yes, of course. Nevertheless, I see that if we already got LuaLaTeX, Lua interfaces to the available constructs would be a logical step in the future.

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright Also, as @TeXnician says, it's faster, That's noticeable in larger documents

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio That I can believe; I guess we are back with the question about 'typical' users (for most end users, performance is not really an issue in that sense, as we are talking at worse a few minutes per run of a file that's likely the only one they are processing)

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright Oh, there are cases when performance makes a difference. I was doing some stuff with auto-generated mazes for kids last year using a Lua library. Drawing with TikZ took hours. With MetaPost and ConTeXt it takes minutes. So I dropped TikZ. But I'm aware that's not a typical case

TeXnician

@JosephWright I'd say the difference is really noticeable. I regularly typeset documents with a large number of sketches. The only point that makes debugging these things not too painful in terms of typesetting delay is TikZ' externalization library (editing something in external standalone files is a bit clumsy in documents with large preamble). With ConTeXt and MetaPost, I never had problems with delays.

David Carlisle

@TeXnician we really should provide a proper metapost interface in lualatex, context itself wouldn't have been the speed difference I assume?

Jairo A. del Rio

17:17

TeXnician

@DavidCarlisle No, the speed difference of ConTeXt and LuaLaTeX is not that large. But TikZ vs. Metapost in this case is.

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright To be honest, Postscript looks cryptical to me.

@JosephWright MetaPost is also more intuitive imho. It evokes the feeling of using a rule and a compass when you have enough time drawing stuff

TeXnician

@DavidCarlisle And I know there is luamplib but it's GPLv2 (iirc) and misses some of the neat ConTeXt shorthands (unique MP graphics etc.).

David Carlisle

@JairoA.delRio latex can solve those easily:

TeXnician

@JairoA.delRio That's probably a question of background. I know some people who do not like to think in linear equations and prefer TikZ (have worked for projects requiring MetaPost, so there were complaints about usability compared to TikZ) :D

Jairo A. del Rio

17:22

@TeXnician Linear equations are no-brainers. I'd worry for those who complain :)

TeXnician

@JairoA.delRio In maths, they are. But there are fields (humanities) where you should not make such assumptions :D

Marcel Krüger

@TeXnician luamplib is GPLv2 since it uses ConTeXt code. That could be avoided (e.g. I have some independent LuaLaTeX mplib backend stored ... somewhere) but then there is no access to MetaFun etc., so we would have to build up a completely independent ecosystem for LaTeX mplib which probably wouldn't happen with TikZ as a more established alternative.

TeXnician

@MarcelKrüger Ah, right, good point. So a necessary evil then.

Marcel Krüger

Since we are talking about GPL and ConTeXt: Does anyone have any news about the luametatex sources?

Jairo A. del Rio

@MarcelKrüger Are they available? I thought they were to be released this year or the next one, according to what Hans said in reports/manuals

Marcel Krüger

17:33

@JairoA.delRio That's what I was trying to ask.

Jairo A. del Rio

@MarcelKrüger Ah, no news in that case. In the last Luametafun manual it's reported that some MetaPost code has been removed, but nothing else worth mentioning.

Paulo Cereda

GPL is mean

Jairo A. del Rio

Sorry for being a killjoy, but what's wrong with GPL? Genuinely asking

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio Oh, it is: I did say abstracting from it

@JairoA.delRio I've never used it, mainly as it's not automatically cross-engine I suppose

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright gmp works pretty well in LaTeX.

@JosephWright Ah, sorry :) MetaPost does too, but TikZ abstracts too much,

Marcel Krüger

17:53

@JairoA.delRio IMO: First it's simply a bad fit for TeX related stuff since it is unclear if documents are derived works. So maybe (or maybe not) documents must be published under GPL rules. (If not, where is the separation? Does it make a difference if I move code from my document text into a separate package?)

That's not intended by most package authors. (e.g. ConTeXt's documentation uses non GPL compatible licenses itself, so if it's considered a derived work then it's a license violation...)

Joseph Wright

@MarcelKrüger I think documents are clear in separation from the engine; I agree for macro stuff life is a lot less clear

Marcel Krüger

@JosephWright Yes, but I was taking about format and package stuff. (We started with luamplib which is a LaTeX package)

Joseph Wright

@MarcelKrüger Oh, sure: I'd go for MIT or LPPL, depending on the history of the code/target collaborations (so for generic stuff probably MIT)

Jairo A. del Rio

@MarcelKrüger Is there a better alternative then? LaTeX has a license, but I'm not sure the ConTeXt crowd is willing to ever consider it

Marcel Krüger

@JairoA.delRio Related to that it's just a drama license. It's often used by people who don't want to deal with licensing (e.g. ConTeX's " . . and don’t bother discussing licence issues and related things with us for the mere sake of discussing licence stuff.") while on the same hand triggering more licensing issues that almost any other license I know.

3

Jairo A. del Rio

17:59

@MarcelKrüger I have to admit I find Hans and Taco's statements fun, but I don't really understand their consequences

Marcel Krüger

@JairoA.delRio I use MIT or BSD outside of LaTeX, but IIRC Apache is a copyleft license which only applies Copyleft to the file itself instead of the entire project. That might be an option.

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio MIT: with hindsight, that would have covered many things the LPPL does (as the latter started out wanting to do things that are not really best handled by a license)

Marcel Krüger

@JairoA.delRio Replace Apache with Mozilla Public License in my previous comment.

Paulo Cereda

@MarcelKrüger IoT too (BSD, MIT and I think we once had a Apache suggestion)

@MarcelKrüger ooh :)

@JosephWright Debian LPPL woes II: woe harder

@MarcelKrüger @Phelype, @samcarter and I encourage this one: github.com/supertunaman/cdl

4

Jairo A. del Rio

Why are too many licenses? Before knowing any TeX, I only knew Creative Commons. In fact, I began to use this chat because I (still) don't understand LPPL

Marcel Krüger

18:07

@JairoA.delRio IMO that's true for many statements in mreadme.pdf, especially the part about distributors "choosing" the LPPL instead.

Paulo Cereda

Can you imagine a world without lawyers

►

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio Creative Commons is not (in the main) good as a choice for code licensing

Marcel Krüger

@PauloCereda That's a good one, but I also have some code where I was tempted to use github.com/me-shaon/GLWTPL

3

Jairo A. del Rio

@JosephWright What would be the eventual issues with TeX related stuff if I used CC?

Paulo Cereda

@MarcelKrüger OMG YES <3

@MarcelKrüger Specially this line: You wrote some code but not quite proud of it, yet want to release it. :D

Mr. Squirrel submitted an update to the CircuiTikZ package.

@Rmano ^^ ooh

Alan Munn

18:11

@JairoA.delRio For packages, the LPPL is nice because although it's a free licence it has a renaming convention built in. So this means anyone can use your code, but they have to release a modified version under a different name. This makes everyone's lives easier.

Joseph Wright

@JairoA.delRio Probably none, as in the end license issues are only significant if there is a court case. However, Creative Commons themselves don't recommend using their stuff for code

@AlanMunn Er, not has to, more is encouraged to

Paulo Cereda

Is a license applicable to itself?

Alan Munn

@JosephWright So I guess strongly encouraged to.

Jairo A. del Rio

> The author has absolutely no clue what the code in this project does.
It might just work or not, there is no third option.

Nice

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda And you wonder why you end up as dinner.

2

Paulo Cereda

18:13

@AlanMunn oh no

/quacks in despair

Joseph Wright

@AlanMunn This is the whole 1600 emails to Debian legal business; like I said, with hindsight, MIT would probably have covered a lot of it (not that anything will every change now)

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Wait, won't L4 be MIT-based?

Rmano

@PauloCereda Yeah!

Paulo Cereda

:)

Alan Munn

@JosephWright Having only browsed those emails, I thought Debian had caved, but I guess they didn't.

Joseph Wright

18:15

@AlanMunn Older LPPL requires a name change, current one simply says changed versions should make this clear

Paulo Cereda

One for @DavidCarlisle: github.com/benlk/misc-licenses/blob/master/bugs-license.md

Jairo A. del Rio

@AlanMunn Licenses should be explained that way as a preamble

> The Bugs License is in the public domain, because nothing else seems suitable.

Paulo Cereda

github.com/benlk/misc-licenses/blob/master/…

> By entering into use of the materials licensed under this license ("The Mephistopheles License"), you agree to forfeit your own soul rather than negotiate with the authors of the materials.

2

Jairo A. del Rio

@PauloCereda ^^ Licenses don't apply to themselves :)

Paulo Cereda

@JairoA.delRio I beg to differ: :) github.com/benlk/misc-licenses/blob/master/…

> The Schrödinger License is licensed under the terms of The Schrödinger License.

3

@AlanMunn web.archive.org/web/20200814150901if_/https://awoo.space/… :)

Jairo A. del Rio

18:19

@PauloCereda Oh, God

Alan Munn

@JosephWright I see, so that was the eventual compromise. But CTAN won't accept duplicate names, so in practical terms there's a renaming convention which (partially?) satisfies the "make this clear" clause.

Jairo A. del Rio

@PauloCereda We should write a duck license :D

Paulo Cereda

@JairoA.delRio ooh

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda lol

Joseph Wright

@AlanMunn Yes; that's what I meant about this being something solved not by the license but by other things. Renaming (source) files, picking package names, etc., is a social contract

Alan Munn

18:22

@JosephWright Which is why the MIT licence would have sufficed.

Joseph Wright

@AlanMunn Yes, exactly: @DavidCarlisle and I have chatted about this a few times

@AlanMunn At this stage, this is all academic: LPPL works for us

barbara beeton

@JairoA.delRio -- ConTeXt for a very long time was a moving target. For a production environment (a publisher of books and journals, for example), it wasn't an option. And once such an environment is stabilized, and authors are reliably submitting files that meet the stated requirements, it's awfully difficult (and even more expensive) to change.

Faheem Mitha

@barbarabeeton Is ConTeXt stable now?

Jairo A. del Rio

@barbarabeeton And still is. That's why it's recommended to us (ConTeXt users) that we make a backup of our current distribution if an update changes something too radically

@FaheemMitha ConTeXt MkIV is going to be, sorta, as LMTX is being developed.

@barbarabeeton I see LaTeX is safer here, even when I use and prefer ConTeXt

Faheem Mitha

@JairoA.delRio I know there is a lot of churn, some of it Lua-related to ConTeXt, but shouldn't the user interface (or whatever you call it) be stable?

Jairo A. del Rio

18:35

@FaheemMitha It is. Only more low level or obscure complexities are unstable. To avoid problems, stick to higher level commands.

Faheem Mitha

@JairoA.delRio I'm not a ConTeXt user. Though some day I might be.

Jairo A. del Rio

@FaheemMitha Lua interfaces are rather stable. I didn't notice anything breaking, as it happens more on the TeX and to a lesser extent in the MetaPost side

Faheem Mitha

@JairoA.delRio OK.

End user usage of Lua is still not common for LaTeX users. Is ConTeXt any different?

Jairo A. del Rio

@FaheemMitha You could use ConTeXt knowing (nearly) nothing about Lua. You'd use Lua for graphs, automatic tasks or calculations

samcarter_waiting_for_summer

A new rabbit for stackexchange: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/361266/…

Jairo A. del Rio

18:45

@FaheemMitha However, some fancy things only can be done via Lua (notice this is posible in LuaLaTeX, too): tex.stackexchange.com/questions/582551/…

Faheem Mitha

@JairoA.delRio I was just asking whether end user usage of Lua was common in ConTeXt or not. I'm aware you can use it without knowing Lua, since it's mostly on a the backend.

BTW, what are my options, if any, for profiling LuaLaTeX?

The compilation hangs at times. I don't know why.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha l3benchmark is one (LaTeX-specific but can be used with a little effort with other formats)

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright I need to use it for LaTeX. but how does it cope with LuaTeX?

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Of course

Faheem Mitha

I need to try to pin down where the compilation is spending its time. Profiling usually involves a list of functions, and how much time (possibly relative time) is spent in each.

Paulo Cereda

19:04

@FaheemMitha this does not sound much of a TeX bottleneck, does it?

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda I'm not sure what you mean

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha you know what a bottleneck is?

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda Yes.

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha good, so you want to profile Lua or TeX code?

Faheem Mitha

Ah, there's a profiling tag. tex.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/profiling

@PauloCereda Both, I suppose. Though the problem is more likely to be in Lua.

Paulo Cereda

19:07

@FaheemMitha hence my comment, "this does not sound much of a TeX bottleneck" in your code.

David Carlisle

20:08

@PauloCereda the thin bit at the top of a bottle.

David Carlisle

20:19

@JairoA.delRio which one? (there are many CC licences)

Alan Munn

20:36

@DavidCarlisle The thing I love about this room is how cooperative we all are.

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn we do try to answer all questions asked.

Paulo Cereda

22:43

@DavidCarlisle quack

David Carlisle

23:14

@PauloCereda supper

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