TeX, LaTeX and Friends

David Purton

00:50

@PauloCereda biblegateway.com/passage/… maybe?

Nike Dattani

04:13

Might be of interest to anyone here doing computational work:

23

Q: Supercomputers around the world!

For a matter modelling person, the most valuable resource is computing power. For many of us, computing power at hand limits the scale of problems we can solve. There are many national supercomputing facilities for academics. What are the resources available in each country?

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

07:20

@StefanKottwitz I did say it in the past, and I'll say it again: If the people in this chat feel my user name is bugging them, I'll change it back. As long as its just a single voice I don't really see the point though.

Ulrike Fischer

07:36

@JosephWright there is an error in the backend of dvips and (x)dvipdfmx: It uses __kernel_backend_select:n instead of __color_backend_select:n:

\cs_new_protected:Npn \__color_backend_family_separation:nn #1#2
  { \__kernel_backend_select:n {#1} }

@JosephWright there is also something wrong the actual implementation for dvips, ps2pdf complains about the l3pdfcol1 (xelatex can't work anyway until the binary is updated). But I can only look in the afternoon.

Joseph Wright

08:00

@UlrikeFischer Fixed

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright yes saw it. I will try to figure out the separation part. There is also the "named" model in color.sty, and the commands in dvipsnam.def. They setup names, but not spotcolors, but cmyk names. I'm not sure how this should be handled.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer My feeling is to handle that at the macro layer: we can just collect up the names

@UlrikeFischer You'll try to work out why ps2pdf is not happy?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer the intention was that those names were spot colours (or at least driver defined ) in drivers that could support them with cmyk fallback if not

Paulo Cereda

@DavidPurton ooh ostriches

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle well I checked what happens with them when converting to pdf, and there you get simply the cmyk. So there are at most spotcolors directly in the postscript (but I don't know if any postscript RIP would take them as such).

David Carlisle

08:13

@UlrikeFischer yes for pdf at the time I didn't know what else to do with them. For dvips the default postscript header file converted them to cmyk but the intention was that you could use custom header files to separate out the colours. but apart from commercial print shops using textures I doubt anyone did

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright collecting the values is not the problem. The color is written differently to the postscript. So one probably need a different backend command here.

@JosephWright yes, I will try.

Paulo Cereda

quack

Friends, it's so challenging to prepare a talk on something you never publicly talked about!

The vegan mafia only warns once

David Carlisle

08:51

@PauloCereda you don't need to worry about anything after Sunday dinner

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

David Carlisle

If you look at travis-ci.org/account/repositories can you see you "organisation" repos, I can only see my personal ones not latex,3, not work :(

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh I need to login

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda I need access to the latex travis settings so I can enable this for @egreg

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle LOL

David Carlisle

09:12

@PauloCereda actually I need to get in for work but it seems to have changed a bit I wonder if they are forcing new repos to travis-ci.com now not .org

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle for work, really?!

@DavidCarlisle that's odd, usually the org thingy was for opensource stuff and com for paid thingies.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda they are moving everything to .com (slowly)

@PauloCereda github.com/orgs/numericalalgorithmsgroup

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh nag

@DavidCarlisle can you add me to the org too?

:)

David Carlisle

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no, you are not in NAG

David Carlisle

09:20

@PauloCereda can you see your gh organisations in travis? It says I am not in any, but following the link just takes me to the github page that says I am in lots

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle let me check

@DavidCarlisle ^^ /all raise, UK-TUG

We need a UK-TUG anthem

David Carlisle

hmm I think I'll try to log out and re-connect

@PauloCereda s/anthem/requiem/

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle nah, how about youtube.com/watch?v=m4zyfwtDIHE

@DavidCarlisle ooh

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda fixed ^

Paulo Cereda

The English have a user group and you can apply / despite the bloody group is about to die

@DavidCarlisle so reboot your machine is always the right way of doing things :)

David Carlisle

09:25

@PauloCereda more or less, just logged out of travis and logged in again

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh let's blame someone

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda @UlrikeFischer

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no, poor Ulrike

4

Joseph Wright

09:57

@DavidCarlisle Oooh

@PauloCereda, @DavidCarlisle Where do you see that?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright it's a secret :) nah, it's here: travis-ci.org/account/repositories

David Carlisle

@JosephWright they are the organisations that travis knows I am in, oh the other duck just gave a link

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle <3

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer I think CIELAB is now working :)

@UlrikeFischer Next is DeviceN I guess

@UlrikeFischer But first, CTAN

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I'm pondering about postscript and dvips.

Joseph Wright

10:03

@UlrikeFischer Cool

@UlrikeFischer We have no guide from colorspace, so it's going to be trickier than PDF mode

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle, @PhelypeOleinik, @MarcelKrüger I'll do the expl3 release before lunch

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright yes ;-(

Joseph Wright

My PC is being really pushed by all this remote working stuff, graphic tablet, etc.: need to convince someone to buy me the latest XPS

:)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright uea?

@JosephWright or uktug :-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Not likely

@DavidCarlisle See Skype

@DavidCarlisle Nice idea, you can imagine the reaction (there, a Mac might actually make sense for cross-platform work)

@DavidCarlisle Don't worry, XPS 9630 is pretty good: i5 and 8Gb RAM is actually quite workable :)

Stefan Kottwitz

10:19

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I know chat people are friendly, tolerant, may let you do whatever floats your boat, so you won't be bothered about topanswers-spam

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz When we talked weeks or months ago about that, I just wanted to give you a hint that it may not be non-annoying for some.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I still don't think it's healthy and good for conversation to repeat the URL in every. single. chat. message.

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz said it's not spam (an information, right), but I call spam that I see is spam

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Just the part that some search index has listed: 252.000 occurences on TeX.SE. 14.100.000 occurences in the SE network. I may call it infested by spam. (German results, US english may differ)

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright OOH

@DavidCarlisle LOL

@JosephWright The one I saw from TUG2018?

Joseph Wright

10:44

@PauloCereda That's the one

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Way better than mine. :)

@JosephWright new XPS would cost GBP 1,345.68 for me

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda About the same here

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright wow

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptop-desktop-accessories-deals/new-xps-13/…

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright holy cow

Killer™ Wi-Fi 6 AX1650 (2 x 2) and Bluetooth 5.1

Oh no, a killer wi-fi

Joseph Wright

10:55

@PauloCereda Did you see the price of the UHD screen one?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright oh let me see

@JosephWright wow

Joseph Wright

11:13

@PauloCereda There's a deal on dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptop-desktop-accessories-deals/new-xps-13/…, 14% off so actually £1,314.95 (if I had to replace my machine tomorrow, this is the one I'd get)

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz I won't be mad if the people told me they find it annoying. As of now the only person who expressed that feeling is you, though you're doing so very prominently and vehemently it's still just one person.

Stefan Kottwitz

11:25

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Sounds like a good good idea to make a survey on the meta site

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz feel free to go ahead.

Stefan Kottwitz

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Sure, possibly heavily downvoted by the spam site "buddies" :-)

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz make it general, not only about TA and it shouldn't get any downvotes. (not that I think downvotes would be justified even if it was only about TA, but still keeping it general seems like the best way)

Joseph Wright

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz, @StefanKottwitz Perhaps best if I post a question from a neutral POV?

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

> the spam site "buddies"

Someone linked to an interesting article recently english.stackexchange.com/questions/225523/…

Stefan Kottwitz

11:38

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I had my experience when I tried to have a fair talk with the spam site users on another SE room. They starred and upvoted nearly every response of their spam site users, so putting all their points on the side bar making my comments and replies effectively invisible.

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz it's a quote of a term used by marmot, since he called us moderators "buddies" of his opponent. Nice that you listen!

@JosephWright Sounds good! Like if it's welcome to use a complete web site URL in the user name to transport it to every single question, answer, comment, and chat message where the user participates. No need to call users or the site by the name.

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz still, if you want to be taken seriously and treated fairly by others, I advice you to refrain from using that rhethoric. Just because someone does something doesn't mean it's ok for you to do the same, especially in your role as a moderator.

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

SO employs statement about user names: "Whether they're advertising politics, a product, or an Area 51 proposal, there is nothing inherently wrong with using your display name as an advertisement for whatever you'd like to advertise [...]" from meta.stackoverflow.com/a/349167

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@JosephWright sounds good! Thanks!

Stefan Kottwitz

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz My role as a moderator forced me suppress my free speech even when people lied and provocated, to calm it down somehow. Being bound by a role is not really a bonus.

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz I never said your role would be a bonus, quite the contrary. The "especially in your role as a moderator" was meant as a "with the extra responsibility you were willing to take and take on a regular basis".

Stefan Kottwitz

11:47

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Correct!

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz Finding a loophole to legally spam doesn't make it less annoying.

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz starring is always a very biased thing. Take this room, I post a picture I find hilariously funny, others might find it boring. Then @PauloCereda posts something funny and gets 5 stars. Nothing bad about that. And iirc, your messages back then were unnecessarily provocating and emotionally charged and you didn't even try to stay objective in your rhethoric. Can you then blame the others for getting/being emotional as well.

@StefanKottwitz and @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz, can we stop this discussion here for now? The meta post on tex.meta will (hopefully) settle things and we can appreciate a calm, peaceful and drama-free atmosphere here!

3

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright "ling background"? What does that mean?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Must be a typo

Stefan Kottwitz

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Sure, just don't forget to consider taking care of the issue on TA, that was the occasion to talk about it here, before the topic drifted off.

Joseph Wright

@StefanKottwitz, @Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz, @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz Will post something soon: got distracted looking over

AlexG

11:56

@JosephWright I have a question about \hbox_to_zero:n. How does it differ from \hbox_overlap_right:n ? Does it perhaps turn into \hbox_overlap_left:n in an RTL context?

Joseph Wright

-2

Q: MWEs and their wrongly assumed place in the question

It is a common practice in this community to request MWEs in questions without it. My personal observation is that they are usually taken as the actual question rather than just an example. I think this severely hurts the usefulness of the community as a resource. Many questions here do not have...

discussion mwe

@AlexG \hbox_to_zero:n doesn't apply hss to the content, but \hbox_overlap_right:n does

@AlexG RTL semantics still not addressed for these things :(

AlexG

@JosephWright Ah, thank you!

Joseph Wright

0

Q: Promotional material in user names

Within reason, users are free to choose their usernames freely. There are restrictions where names are potentially offensive, and 'we' have tended to avoid allowing those which might be misleading (notably 'moderator', 'LaTeX', etc.: a few very general terms). On the chat, the question arose abou...

discussion user-accounts

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

12:14

@JosephWright the linked meta answer explicitly includes "advertisement", not only "political statements". IMHO, it would be fair to change the wording in your question as it is explicitly about promotional material (advertisement).

AlexG

12:24

@JosephWright It seems that \hbox_overlap_right:n and \hbox_overlap_left:n swap their meanings in RTL context. This is ok and is what I expect.

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{expl3}

\TeXXeTstate=1
\ExplSyntaxOn

\begin{document}
\beginR
\vrule~width~1pt~height~2ex\hbox_overlap_right:n{This~box~overlaps~left.}\hbox_overlap_left:n{This~box~overlaps~right.}
\end{document}

So one programs for LTR, but it also works in RTL

Joseph Wright

12:48

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz OK, I'll adjust

@AlexG My point was that we don't document this, there's no way to fix the direction, and one might argue that 'left' and 'right' are the wrong terms (they are LTR-centric)

Paulo Cereda

13:39

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz ducks and rabbits <3

@UlrikeFischer ooh ling

cis

14:27

Try installing Linux Mint on a laptop. How long should that take? Not really that long, is it?

It hangs on the radio network forever and loads like crazy from the installation DVD.

Mmmm, what should I do?

Phelype Oleinik

@JosephWright Perhaps l3build could catch on line xxxx when the line wraps: github.com/latex3/latex2e/commit/…

Joseph Wright

@PhelypeOleinik Pattern for the hit? %([^%)]+%)%s+line %d?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright oh no

Phelype Oleinik

@JosephWright It may line-break in two places so perhaps on(%n%([^%)]+%)%s+| )line(%n%([^%)]+%)%s+| )%d+ (not sure if the right syntax for Lua)

Joseph Wright

@PhelypeOleinik Normalisation works on a per-line basis, so we are always looking for lines that have wrapped rather than those containing newline chars

Phelype Oleinik

14:44

@JosephWright Ah :/

@JosephWright So maybe %([^%)]+%)%s+(line )?%d+, but it might catch other (whatever)<spaces><number> it shouldn't

Joseph Wright

@PhelypeOleinik something like that, yes

@PhelypeOleinik I'll remind myself of the Lua and maybe adjust

@PhelypeOleinik BTW, upload has gone to CTAN

Phelype Oleinik

@JosephWright Maybe this one, so it doesn't match input files by accident (added a /): %([^%)/]+%)%s+(line )?%d+

Joseph Wright

Now we find out who is still using \etex_.../\pdftex_..., etc.

Phelype Oleinik

@JosephWright Thanks!

@JosephWright I think I'll wait to add \msg_term:n to the next dev release... (in the hook code, I mean)

Joseph Wright

@PhelypeOleinik Sure, got it

@PhelypeOleinik \msg_term:n was an old name: you'll need to be careful in the deprecation area

Phelype Oleinik

14:49

@JosephWright Oops. Missed one n :-)

Joseph Wright

@PhelypeOleinik Ah :)

@PhelypeOleinik Been reading Bruno's PRs?

Phelype Oleinik

@JosephWright Not as thoroughly as I'd like. But the peek analysis thing is impressive (and very handy, I think)

Joseph Wright

@PhelypeOleinik Probably we should schedule review on them, so we can discuss interfaces properly at the team meeting

Phelype Oleinik

@JosephWright Okay. Next one will probably be... calmer, after the -dev (or not :-)

Joseph Wright

@PhelypeOleinik Well yes, we likely need a couple of 'cycles'

Paulo Cereda

15:00

ooh Captain Sir Thomas Moore

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Reading BBC news?

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Auntie :)

Paulo Cereda

15:20

@JosephWright ditch my logo... :(

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda No! Build on your logo

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright Pollyannaism :)

@JosephWright ^^ :)

Paulo Cereda

15:38

twitter.com/tds153/status/1282687551506190337

Pablo González L

Hola hola, Someone here can tell me what you get by using lualatex --shell-escape test.tex over this file:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{pst-poker}
\usepackage{auto-pst-pdf-lua}
\ifpdf
\usepackage{fontspec}
\usepackage{dejavu-otf}
\else
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
\usepackage{dejavu}
\fi
\begin{document}
An example for using Luacode:
$\pi^{\pi}=\directlua{tex.print(math.pi^math.pi)}$
An example for PostScript code:
\bigskip
\begin{postscript}
\As~\Ad~\Ac~\Ah~\crdAs~\crdAd~\crdAc~\crdAh
\end{postscript}
\end{document}

Update today and I get

! Undefined control sequence.
l.67 \bool
_new:N \g__expl_reload_bool

Joseph Wright

@PabloGonzálezL You've got a stray format file

Pablo González L

@JosephWright Always use tlmgr update --self --all --reinstall-forcibly-removed

How do I get out of the way?

Joseph Wright

16:06

@PabloGonzálezL Try kpsewhich --all --engine=luahbtex lualatex.fmt

Pablo González L

@JosephWright I get the same thing :(

Ulrike Fischer

@PabloGonzálezL what do you get as output from Joseph's command?

Pablo González L

# kpsewhich --all --engine=luahbtex lualatex.fmt
/usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-var/web2c/luahbtex/lualatex.fmt

Ulrike Fischer

@PabloGonzálezL and what is the date of this format?

and check also dvilualatex.fmt

Pablo González L

@UlrikeFischer Using lualatex-dev works OK

Ulrike Fischer

16:17

@PabloGonzálezL well that is a different format. As Joseph wrote: the error indicates an old format somewhere. Is it lualatex or dvilualatex that breaks?

Pablo González L

@UlrikeFischer It is lualatex the problem, the package auto-pst-pdf-lua generates the images correctly (it uses dvilualatex as far as I understand the code)

The big log pastebin.com/i9cfkSmP

Ulrike Fischer

@PabloGonzálezL no I meant: try a small hello world document with lualatex and dvilualatex. Which one errors?

Pablo González L

@UlrikeFischer No problem with any of my other documents, it's just this specific one

Ulrike Fischer

@PabloGonzálezL did you try another document with dvilualatex????

Pablo González L

@UlrikeFischer Yeah

Ulrike Fischer

16:33

@PabloGonzálezL your format is has a quite curious date: format=lualatex 2016.5.20. Did you try fmtutil-sys --byfmt=lualatex? Does it update the format?

Pablo González L

@UlrikeFischer You saved my day fmtutil-sys --byfmt=lualatex together with fmtutil-user --byfmt=lualatex have solved the problem

No idea why this happened :(

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I found this tex.stackexchange.com/a/125543/2388. And if I copy the setcolorspace part, followed by a 0.4 setcolor in the middle of a ps-file, I get after ps2pdf an entry in the /ColorSpace resource, a separation object (but with a missing new line before the endobj), and in the stream /R10 cs 0.399902 scn. Which means that is theoretically works, but the details are missing ;-).

cis

16:53

What will happen, if I install
linuxmint-20-cinnamon-64bit.iso
on a 32bit laptop?

Stefan Kottwitz

17:08

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Regarding meta, I guess I was right: 6 downvotes already without even naming TA. Funnily this time inside spammers don't show up yet with their name to comment (since they have spam in their name?) Or can I expect 6 comments that explain what they think is wrong? Zero for now in that discussion.

Marcel Krüger

@cis The Linux Mint homepage has a note about that:

> Tip: You can try to boot Linux Mint 64-bit on your computer. If it isn’t compatible, nothing bad will happen. You will just get an error message.

Joseph Wright

17:31

@UlrikeFischer Hmm

@StefanKottwitz I think discussion is best kept to the meta question

Stefan Kottwitz

@JosephWright Sure, waiting for it.

cis

@MarcelKrüger Aha. :() I have the problem that the laptop rumbles like crazy, loads, ventilates, ....
Since there is no detailed progress bar, I don't know if the installation is still running.
The installation is said to take hours. Mmm ...

A detailed progress bar would have been appropriate ...

@MarcelKrüger Oh, then I remember that I started the installation in "compatibility mode". I didn't know what that was pointing out, but sounded good.

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright it is a start. The main point that I was missing all the time is that the tintTransform must be a function, I was always trying with some arbitrary values and got errors.

Joseph Wright

17:54

@UlrikeFischer Ah, right, yes, but still tricky :)

Marcel Krüger

@cis Especially on an older laptop that's probably normal, but it's been some times since I last used an installer to install linux, so I wouldn't know.

@cis Generally I would recommend against such compatibility modes unless necessary, they often disable some more efficient drivers and make everything slower.

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright yes, I will play around this is a bit. Someone who knows postscript will have to tell me how you can store the tintprocedure and the array in some variable/function.

David Carlisle

18:14

@JosephWright oh that explains who gave me a downvote on an ancient answer:-)

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@DavidCarlisle Seems this brought you on track for 666,666

David Carlisle

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz that had been noticed (otherwise I'd have worked harder to rep cap so not get the -2 :-)

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@DavidCarlisle :) What a considerate user to help you!

David Carlisle

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz there's time to get more downvotes before then so it may yet come to nothing.

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle How would you read "Petrine ministry"? "pea - try - ni"?

"Pontificate" seems easier, nevermind. :)

David Carlisle

18:31

@PauloCereda not a word I know but I'd pronounce it as "pet reen" unless told otherwise

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Thanks, the Google lady suggested me "try" instead of "tree". But she also says "tee" instead of "ty" pography. :)

2

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda Google :)

How do I invoke the correct ConText documentation using texdoc? . When I use texdoc context it doesn't show the file I expect (the same as CTAN) and with texdoc -f context` I don't get the number :(

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda three youtube pronunciation guides with three different versions. Typical English pronunciation rule "foreign looking word, just make something up" youtube.com/watch?v=nrSvLaFm0NQ youtube.com/watch?v=3aThQGGkVQQ youtube.com/watch?v=mL2ZIFOeDpg

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle YouTube :)

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL which doc do you want, texdoc ma-cb-en.pdf gives something

@PabloGonzálezL don't you want -l not -f to get the number list

Pablo González L

18:40

@DavidCarlisle Mmmm... I was hoping to get "cont-eni.pdf"

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL Sorry, no documentation found for "cont-eni.pdf".

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle Mmmm... It is available at CTAN ctan.org/pkg/context

It's strange that I don't get it in my distribution (which is complete)

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL isnt that the mkii doc?

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle I can't find it in my system :( ... Can you tell me the path of that file in your distribution?

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL oh I see it's excluded from texlive due to the licence, look at the first page on the ctan copy it prohibts distribution

@PabloGonzálezL but it's from 2001 and set with pdftex so it's the old manual

Pablo González L

18:49

@DavidCarlisle I see, you are right, it is a bit old document, the texdoc ma-cb-en.pdf file is what I am looking for :) [It should come out first when using texdoc context]

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL request that on texlive list and they may add a special case rule so that happens

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle I think texdoc has its own list or not?

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL possibly.

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle It's almost as useful as texdoc latex :-)

cis

The Laptop is from 2010-12.
Is 4 or more hours Linux Mint installation normal here?

David Carlisle

19:01

@UlrikeFischer ^^ better than silly blub examples

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@cis Sounds very long. I don't have experience with mint, but installing fedora on a similar old laptop took me maybe half an hour

@cis What does your screen show at the moment?

Pablo González L

@cis fedora-mate... always works better on older equipment... like my old DELL :)

2

@DavidCarlisle The etexcmds package is functional today ... or it is not necessary to protect macros that collide with ConText

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@PabloGonzálezL No need to restrict this statement to older equipment, fedora works better on everything :)

Pablo González L

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz That is an absolute truth! Linux worktex 5.7.8-200.fc32.x86_64

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle fair is foul and foul is fair ...

David Carlisle

19:20

@UlrikeFischer I increased the allowed form size by a factor of 100 not sure how generous I should be, but something isn't right the table of contents isn't showing the No file docuemnt.toc in the log is supposed to trigger a re-run, I need to test with a smaller example

Faheem Mitha

In \includegraphics, I'm not sure how the trim arguments work.

Are those coordinates for the image as they appear on the page?

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL I doubt it has beentested against context in a long time

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle how many pages does it create?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer see the toolbar in the image:-) 41

locally I get Output written on macbeth.pdf (41 pages, 193424 bytes).

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle ah ;-). That isn't so much, if it is mainly text.

David Carlisle

19:22

@FaheemMitha they are relative to the bounding box of the image

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle It sounds like the image itself wouldn't get scaled up, then.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes the author appears to be very conservative he's actually written individual words, no recursive loops or lipsum calls to generate the text.

@FaheemMitha trim doesn't scale anything it's just for trimming off the edges, as with just cutting the border off a print with scissors

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Ok. I want the trimmed image to be scaled to fit the page. Is there a graceful way of doing this within the confines of \includegraphics?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha width=\textwidth

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Oh.

Paulo Cereda

19:26

@DavidCarlisle Is keepaspectratio enabled by default?

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda no, well yes but with value false

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle got it :)

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle Thank you, it's clearer to me

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer oh it's hyperref that broke it

With

\documentclass{book}


%\usepackage[colorlinks, linkcolor=blue]{hyperref}

\begin{document}


\tableofcontents

\section{aaa}
aa

\section{bbb}
ccc

\end{document}

after the first run you get No file cn.toc but if you delete everything and start again but with hyperref uncommented then you do not get that warning

@UlrikeFischer I had better look also for (rerunfilecheck) Rerun to get outlines right

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

19:42

@StefanKottwitz is that meant to be provocative or just sounds like it by accident? Also, I for one haven't voted at all and don't want to express my own views on this as they are heavily biased and I want to see what a fair conclusion of the majority of the frequenters of this site looks like.

3

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle so you can blame me? ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer ooh

Stefan Kottwitz

20:30

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Just openly sharing with you what I saw there, since we talked. The for meta uncommon pattern looks like other people don't want to see such a fair conclusion of users but to push it in a desired direction. Still there's the possibility that 6 non-biased users downvote, but I don't understand yet which part they might mean. If it's sock puppets, they won't tell.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer naturally, been out for a bit I'll have a look what happens, but I should catch the rerunfilecheck messages anyway

Stefan Kottwitz

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz And this time it's not randomly starring (right sidebar) of funny pictures or jokes or important news, but it's picking and starring pro-topanswers messages out of a comprehensive conversation. Interpret any way you think, it's just the same behavior I noticed when I talked with them in their duckoverflow chat room months ago.

David Carlisle

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz neither do I, that's an inherent with such voting systems.

Phelype Oleinik

@DavidCarlisle learnmacbeth.org?

Stefan Kottwitz

20:43

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I appreciate talking with you, and by the way, the original issue is gone, thanks!

David Carlisle

@PhelypeOleinik to latex or context, that is the question

2

Phelype Oleinik

@DavidCarlisle HaM \let :-)

2

(this is as bad as my jokes can get :-)

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz you mean currently in this chat? The messages I wrote which got starred were all those messages in which I either stated that I try to find an objective consensus, or the one in which I tried to end the discussion in order to wait for the consensus on meta, nothing pro-topanswers as far as I can tell.

2

David Carlisle

@PhelypeOleinik that one is available too if you wish

Stefan Kottwitz

@PhelypeOleinik Germans take Goe\the:-)

Phelype Oleinik

20:48

@StefanKottwitz :)

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@StefanKottwitz Just for comparison: similar messages in stackexchange chat that spread lies about other users are not gone

Stefan Kottwitz

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz Like those I saw in the duckoverflow chat room? Flag what you mean (again if needed) as this is just too vague, I simply don't know which date and where to search for it.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer ouch I'd never noticed hyperref does this, it discards an existing toc and suppresses the message that it isn't there. :(

% If hyperref was used last time, do nothing. If it was not used,
% or an old version of hyperref was used, don't use that TOC at all
% but generate a warning. Not ideal, but better than failing
% with pre-5.0 hyperref TOCs.

Stefan Kottwitz

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz By the way, when flagging please justify/explain so mods can understand, in some cases an unclear flag may be dismissed because mods may simply not understand why, but just got a flag wit a claim, in rare cases. (such flags sometimes stay long in the queue because nobody can decide). Just, the clearer the better, in short.

Mods are happy to serve for clear things.

Ulrike Fischer

21:05

@DavidCarlisle I know the warning but never checked why and if it is still needed - but probably we need always 4 arguments for contentsline to get rid of it.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer adding a test for rerunfilecheck messages seems like a good idea anyway so it's fixed at latexcgi but another hyperref quirk to clean up one day:-)

barbara beeton

@UlrikeFischer and @DavidCarlisle -- The number of arguments for \tocline (with or without hyperref) was a real pain for AMS. What problem (other the nuisance of figuring out where to do it} would result from simply adding an empty {} at the end of the input?

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle what could be the problem? Simply adding an empty argument in the \addcontentsline definition seems to work fine?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer i am not sure, the comment doesn't say it fails with a standard definition but a pre 5.0 hyperref one so I'd have to dig out a hyperref 4 and see what it was doing

@UlrikeFischer but.. changelog starts at 1997-11-24 6.7 Sebastian Rahtz
* RELEASE 6.7 when was hyperref 5.0????

@barbarabeeton at some point we will probably want hyperlinking to be built in but getting the timing right is tricky but this particular comment seems to be worrying about running a 25 year old file while keeping the .aux and .toc from the old system and avoiding errors

Ulrike Fischer

21:24

@DavidCarlisle No, I meant why can't the latex kernel add an empty brace pair:

\def\addcontentsline#1#2#3{%
  \addtocontents{#1}{\protect\contentsline{#2}{#3}{\thepage}{}%
                     \protected@file@percent}}

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I think we tried it and some patch in koma or memoir or some random university thesis class from 1984 broke,

@UlrikeFischer but we have got better at getting changes in so maybe we could do this ...

barbara beeton

@UlrikeFischer -- Yes, that's the sort of adjustment I was thinking of. I think that would work fine in the AMS classes. (But do realize that memoir and KOMA might behave differently).

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle I think we should try.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes especially with \protected@file@percent the code has already changed in the not so distant past so old patches expecting exactly the 2.09 definition are already broken

Ulrike Fischer

21:43

@DavidCarlisle it would be even better, if there where some dummy command there. Then hyperref could simply define it, instead of patching \addtocontents. Well looking at the patches, it isn't so easy ;-(

Alan Munn

@PabloGonzálezL @PauloCereda What kind of cuia do I need for that? :)

@yo' Did you see my question a few days ago about removing non-aux extra files from the cache on Overleaf?

Phelype Oleinik

@AlanMunn One made of Porongo. Anything else makes the chimarrão taste weird (@PauloCereda wouldn't know; he's too far north :-)

Alan Munn

@PhelypeOleinik True.

@PhelypeOleinik But I was asking specifically about fedora-mate. Maybe it's different. :)

Phelype Oleinik

22:01

@AlanMunn A laptop made of Porongo? :-)

Alan Munn

@PhelypeOleinik New from Dell, the Luddite :)

3

David Carlisle

spot the difference:

%!TEX program = pdflatex
\documentclass{book}

\begin{document}
zzz
\end{document}

%!TEX program = pdflatex
\documentclass{book}

\begin{document}
zzz
\end{document}

Actually I'm not sure the difference shows up but one is accepted by overleaf and one isn't most likely because of

$ file cn.tex
cn.tex: LaTeX 2e document, ASCII text

$ file cn.tex
cn.tex: PostScript document text

We can blame @yo' :-)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle what is the difference?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer newline at the start %! as first two bytes is a unix magic marker for PostScript....

@UlrikeFischer finally realised why sometimes the open in Overleaf button does that^^^^

Ulrike Fischer

22:19

@DavidCarlisle I never really tried to open in overleaf, the other button is so much faster ;-)

Stefan Kottwitz

@UlrikeFischer The other button works without registration

David Carlisle

@StefanKottwitz yes although the observed differences are probably due to other things like not opening in a new tab which makes it seem quicker even if it isn't and a lighter weight setup at the server, the machine itself as you observed the other day isn't that powerful or quick:-)

Stefan Kottwitz

@DavidCarlisle Do you monitor the load over time?

I mean like CPU or memory, not hits.

David Carlisle

22:35

@StefanKottwitz no not a lot of point really at the moment as it runs at around ~30 documents per day for a second or so each so load is 0 almost always.... I'd need to keep more of an eye on it if it became popular...

Stefan Kottwitz

@DavidCarlisle Yes, for later. Not sure what is a good lightweight tool to track that.

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