TeX, LaTeX and Friends

yo'

00:52

@CarLaTeX avocado would be better matched with maple syrop :)

Faheem Mitha

02:15

@Skillmon Some syntax is only definable using \def? I didn't know that.

@DavidCarlisle Oh

Alan Munn

04:01

@FaheemMitha Yes, because \def allows delimited arguments, which can't be done using e.g. \newcommand.

Faheem Mitha

06:06

@AlanMunn I see. Thanks.

Skillmon

06:32

@DavidCarlisle I'd advocate to make A4 the standard, as that's a sensible standard used in the world, and not only in one country...

3

@DavidCarlisle Also, you know I had to complain if there was an opportunity that someone would complain :)

Skillmon

06:50

Does the word "parsable" exist in English?

Faheem Mitha

07:20

@Skillmon Yes. Though I would be more likely to use parseable.

Skillmon

@FaheemMitha oh really? Why (genuinely curious)?

David Carlisle

07:50

@Skillmon yes but what do we tell people with an archive of 35 year's worth of documents that have \documentclass{article}\setlength{\oddsidemargin}{...} that look right on A4 that suddenly shift sideways....

Ulrike Fischer

08:03

@DavidCarlisle the question is how many of these documents don't use graphicx or hyperref or any other package / font that has changed over the last 35 years and are actually recompiled today. E.g. wouldn't they perhaps break anyway due to the utf8 default?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I know. That is exactly the question. But what is the answer? :-)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle I suspect it isn't so much. When were "page size" commands added to the graphics drivers?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer in the beginning (or at least for those drivers where I knew how to do it) (I think, I could check) I think it was already in Sebastian's epsfig for latex209

@Skillmon It's hard to know in English: parse-parsable, manage-manageable,somethingendingine-somethingwithorwithoutanedependingonwhatlooksright

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle then I would say the number of document which don't already set the page size correctly is rather small. Every author will have used graphicx or epsfig at some time and if this has a negative side effect they will have learned to use [a4paper].

@yo' arev is a legacy font package for pdflatex. The combination with unicode-math which works only with the unicode engines doesn't make sense. You can use unicode-math with beamer but the number of unicode sans serif math fonts is rather restricted. E.g. ctan.org/pkg/firamath and ctan.org/pkg/gfsneohellenicmath

Faheem Mitha

08:23

@Skillmon No particular reason. Just feels like a preferred spelling option to me. Both are recognized variants.

I guess I just prefer a direct derivative of 'parse'?

Rmano

@AlanMunn AAAARRRGHHHH

@JosephWright I think I know why I had that problem (not up-to-date pdflatex-dev format). In the update this morning tlmgr did start building formats, but it bumped out on an error on jadepdftex or something similar (no idea what it is , as an aside ;-) ). So I had to manually use fmtutil-sys --all which seems to continue after the errors... (scrolled too fast).

Is there a fast way to disable formats I never use in TeXLive?

Paulo Cereda

08:45

@DavidCarlisle ooh goal

@barbarabeeton one for your TB column, perhaps? luciole-vision.com/luciole-en.html

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@AlanMunn holy cow

Paulo Cereda

09:05

@DavidCarlisle 42?

Skillmon

@DavidCarlisle The answer is 42.

@PauloCereda ohhhh. ^^^

@DavidCarlisle so you'd advocate for "parsable". Then I should probably use "parseable" :)

Paulo Cereda

@Skillmon oooooooh <3

@Skillmon I have the four books. :)

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha ⅆparse/ⅆe

Skillmon

09:24

@PhelypeOleinik I now include a small example using \ekvsneakPre. Any comments?

Paulo Cereda

@Skillmon oh I read snake instead of sneak...

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer One for the team list I suspect

Skillmon

@PauloCereda ahhhh.

Paulo Cereda

@Skillmon :)

Jun 30 '17 at 19:15, by Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer German snakes go hißßßßßßßßßßßßßß

Skillmon

@PauloCereda /nervous rabbit sounds

Paulo Cereda

09:28

/runs

@Skillmon oh no

Skillmon

@PauloCereda /remembering that I'm no ordinary rabbit

Paulo Cereda

@Skillmon ooh a super rabbit :)

Skillmon

@PauloCereda /aggressive killer rabbit sounds to drive the snake off

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle ?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha you asked for a derivative

Faheem Mitha

09:31

Oh, a derivative. Never mind.

@DavidCarlisle That's very helpful. Thanks.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha we try to serve

Joseph Wright

@Skillmon The Vorpal Rabbit?

Faheem Mitha

Sometimes I have difficulties recognizing Leibnitz's notation out of context.

@JosephWright Snicker-snack.

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright ooh

@DavidCarlisle ooh

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha that's why unicode has ⅆ a specific differential d character

Faheem Mitha

09:40

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that's what tipped me off. Though I hear it is not without controversy.

Slanted versus straight.

@PauloCereda ooh?

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha ooh indeed

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha and double struck, it is &differentiald; in html

Faheem Mitha

I think this is as momentous as where to break a boiled egg.

@DavidCarlisle double struck? You mean with two parallel double lines?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha yes

@FaheemMitha it is @egreg's favourite notation.

Faheem Mitha

09:59

@DavidCarlisle That's nice.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle uh-oh

Skillmon

@JosephWright More the Rabbit of Caerbannog.

@JosephWright why does \cs add its argument to the list of places where it is described? I think only function should do so.

Diaa

10:30

Hello everyone,

Until receiving a response from this answer's https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/521824/2288 author, I would be grateful if someone could help me replace latexmk with an abstract lualatex command in the case of Output One File to have something like lualatex -synctex=1 -shell-escape -interaction=nonstopmode

David Carlisle

10:53

@Diaa I don't think I understand the question (but I'd not have spaces in filenames and be wary of using shell escape, that is disabled by default with good reason)

Diaa

11:15

@DavidCarlisle I need spaces for enhancing the readability. For the question itself, the answer's author used latexmk for compiling the document when answers option is enabled. However, I need to replace it with, for instance, lualatex -synctex=1 -shell-escape -interaction=nonstopmode in the code entitled Output One file at the end of answer.

David Carlisle

@Diaa no one needs spaces in filenames (and in a world where spaces are used to separate command-line arguments, they make all processing pipelines much more complicated for so little gain)

@Diaa surely can't you just replace the comamnd in the shell escape line? but latexmk would run luatex 2 or three times to resolve cross references, do you need to do that here or just run luatex once?

AlexG

@DavidCarlisle For adding mp3, only the attachfile/attachfile2 method comes to mind. The Legacy Sound annotation of the PDF spec only allows for wav and a few other ancient formats in a Acrobat Reader compatible fashion

David Carlisle

@Diaa Given that the code in the answer uses shell escape I would not run it on this machine unless I fully understood every line so I can't suggest exact code changes, sorry. If you run tex code copied from the internet with shell-escape then you are allowing anyone to run any command on your machine, with your full access rights.

@AlexG thanks.

AlexG

@DavidCarlisle And attachfile requires proper configuration of the OS, to start the right external application on click.

David Carlisle

@AlexG oh I thought you'd have to detach the file then play it "by hand" so you could in theory make it play with a single button, at least in acrobat?

CarLaTeX

11:32

@yo' Have you ever tried panettone with maple syrup? Delicious! :)

Paulo Cereda

@CarLaTeX and Nutella pizza

CarLaTeX

@PauloCereda no

Paulo Cereda

@CarLaTeX Nutella pizza is good!

@PhelypeOleinik ^^

@CarLaTeX texdoc texplate , second footnote.

CarLaTeX

@PauloCereda Whatever with Nutella over is not pizza

@PauloCereda Oh no! LOL

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda you could point readers of the thread above to the 5th footnote

Paulo Cereda

11:51

@DavidCarlisle ooh

Phelype Oleinik

12:13

@Skillmon Amazing! And surprisingly simple; not even close to the 42 lines you advertised :-)

@Skillmon Thanks!

@PauloCereda Nutella pizza \NotEnoughEmph{is} good :-)

Paulo Cereda

@PhelypeOleinik YEEEEES

Phelype Oleinik

@PauloCereda By the way, in the TeXplate manual, Introduction, 1st paragraph, "typographic additions" -> "typographic addiCtions"?

Paulo Cereda

@PhelypeOleinik moar tpyos. :) Thank you!

Phelype Oleinik

@PauloCereda You're weclome :-)

Paulo Cereda

@PhelypeOleinik ooh <3

Phelype Oleinik

12:25

Oct 13 '18 at 18:59, by Phelype Oleinik

@PauloCereda Neither did I. I always tyep everythinh correcly :)

David Carlisle

12:45

@PhelypeOleinik you should use latex-dev that allows you to have as many nested emphs as you want, all with different styles

Phelype Oleinik

@DavidCarlisle Like Nutella pizza \really{\really{\really{is}}} good? ;-)

2

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@PhelypeOleinik ooooooooooh

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle The hyperref version that is on (ctan.org/incoming) is the same as git...I don't see any changes in the repository :(

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL can you access it from there? I didn't think that was possible

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda Hola, bonito día para los patos

@DavidCarlisle Nope, I can only see it, the strange thing is that I don't see this (in git) any new tag

Phelype Oleinik

12:51

@PauloCereda The top two starred messages in this chat are about Nutella on pizza. @CarLaTeX would beat me right now :-)

Skillmon

@PhelypeOleinik yeah, I had at first done it with \ekvsneak instead of \ekvsneakPre and had then to loop over it to get the last key...

Pablo González L

@PhelypeOleinik Hola...como estás :)

Phelype Oleinik

@PabloGonzálezL Bien, y tu? :-)

Pablo González L

@PhelypeOleinik Jugando con git :)

Phelype Oleinik

@Skillmon Ooh, that makes sense

David Carlisle

12:53

@PabloGonzálezL I tag after it has been accepted by ctan

Paulo Cereda

@PabloGonzálezL Hola amigo! Como estás?

Phelype Oleinik

@PabloGonzálezL Hacendo problemas para @DavidCarlisle resolver (my spanish is awful :)

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle Oh, I get it

Paulo Cereda

@PabloGonzálezL nosotros brasileños (yo e @PhelypeOleinik) somos muy buenos con portuñol. :)

Pablo González L

@PhelypeOleinik jejeje...Yes (mi ingles no es muy bueno)

David Carlisle

12:55

@PabloGonzálezL Sí: el pato asado es bueno en un día frío de invierno.

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda Jajajja...

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle Y también en un caluroso día de verano :)

Phelype Oleinik

@PauloCereda Oh, mi portuñol es perfecto ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@PhelypeOleinik yo same. :)

David Carlisle

12:57

@PhelypeOleinik @PabloGonzálezL @PabloGonzálezL to even things up you should communicate in Italian. (Just put o at the end of every word and drop the accents:-)

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle Ho, a quick course for Italian...I don't know what @egreg thought of this :)

Phelype Oleinik

@DavidCarlisle The same way as writing german you just remove some spaces and add ß and ü :-)

Pablo González L

@PhelypeOleinik A quick course to write German... I wonder what @UlrikeFischer will say?

David Carlisle

@PhelypeOleinik yeßofcoürse

egreg

13:48

@DavidCarlisle It's easy to translate Italian into Spanish: add some final “s”.

yo'

@egreg and it's easy to switch to French then: do not pronounce them.

David Carlisle

@yo' oddly no one is saying Czech is a simple matter of adjusting a few word endings.

yo'

@DavidCarlisle well, we say that Slovak is formed from Czech by permutation of letters. However, the Slovaks say the same about Czech.

David Carlisle

@yo' that's the good thing about group operations, they are invertible

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Remove as many vowels as you can and a bit more.

yo'

13:59

@egreg :D And remember that each single consonant shall be pronounced (unless it shan't)

David Carlisle

So that's linguistics done then, @AlanMunn just arrived too late.

AlexG

@DavidCarlisle As far as I remember, on the first click in Acrobat a dialogue opens, giving you the choice to either open or save to disk the attachment on the second click.

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle Deep learning in action.

David Carlisle

@AlexG ah OK I see. Does the PDF 2 future suggest having more native pdf support for video and sound or is some container like flash the way it will be?

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn siéntate cerca de la ventana => sienta-se pierto de la janela (@PhelypeOleinik)

Phelype Oleinik

14:11

@PauloCereda Tu és muy fluente en portuñol, señor Cereda :D

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle I found a reference in the adobe documentation that suggested that it has some native support for a number of audio/video formats but couldn't test as I have no idea how to get suitable samples.

Paulo Cereda

@PhelypeOleinik LOL

@PhelypeOleinik Quem te contou? => Hot told?

Phelype Oleinik

@PauloCereda Oh, my. That's bad :D

@PauloCereda There was this page, when I used facebook, that had tons of this mis-translations. I loved it :-)

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda Any particular reason in 'arara' to show the dates 01/21/2020 and not in the form 2020/01/21?

Alan Munn

14:27

@PabloGonzálezL Sucking up to the Americans again.

Paulo Cereda

@PabloGonzálezL Uh-oh. One for the next release. Thank you for spotting it.

@AlanMunn Patos detetives

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda s/et/ef/ :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda or even better with a -

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn you are mean

@DavidCarlisle ooh more dates

barbara beeton

14:51

@Skillmon -- Suggesting making A4 the standard is all very well, and I agree that there are probably more individual users for whom that is the local norm. However, the original TeX has "lettersize" built in, and some major publishers base their production on that convention. You're asking for a major disruption here. What I think would be better is a more reliable, uniform, and simpler way to conform to the local convention.

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda How does the `--silent` option work?
\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
No ducks were harmed in this file
\end{document}

$ arara test.ltx -s
__ _ _ __ __ _ _ __ __ _
/ _` | '__/ _` | '__/ _` |
| (_| | | | (_| | | | (_| |
\__,_|_| \__,_|_| \__,_|

Processing 'test.ltx' (size: 238 bytes, last modified: 01/21/2020
11:53:34), please wait.

(PDFLaTeX) PDFLaTeX engine .............................. SUCCESS

Total: 0.93 seconds
$ arara test.ltx --silent
__ _ _ __ __ _ _ __ __ _
/ _` | '__/ _` | '__/ _` |

Paulo Cereda

@PabloGonzálezL Ah it was suggested by Nicola in case the verbose key is set in the configuration file.

CarLaTeX

@PhelypeOleinik No, but only because I'm against violence :)

Paulo Cereda

We might need a --quiet option. :)

Skillmon

@PauloCereda >/dev/null

Paulo Cereda

14:58

@Skillmon ooh advanced rabbit techniques. :)

Skillmon

@barbarabeeton didn't know that publishers might rely on that.

@PauloCereda 2>&1

Paulo Cereda

@Skillmon ooh that one I know. :) You redirect streams, right? :)

Skillmon

@PauloCereda output stderr to the same place stdout is put at.

Phelype Oleinik

@CarLaTeX :-)

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda I think it would be a good idea :)

Paulo Cereda

15:00

@PabloGonzálezL added to the feature list. :)

@Skillmon ooh :)

Pablo González L

@Skillmon Only nix :(

Skillmon

@PabloGonzálezL there are other OSes which are used for productive tasks? How?

Pablo González L

@Skillmon I understand, but, arara is multiplatform ...and if from time to time I use windows :(

Alan Munn

@PabloGonzálezL My condolences.

Skillmon

@AlanMunn :)

Pablo González L

15:08

@AlanMunn It's true :( , but in my job there's no other option... I can only use 'WSL' to get out of the way.

Paulo Cereda

@PabloGonzálezL but you use Fedora <3

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda And I struggle every year to install TeXLive without dnf getting angry with the rest of the packages :)

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton currently texlive (and miktex) allow the pdf page size to be set as a sitewise install option, so basically everyone in Europe sets it to A4 but latex always took a global us letter default, so the default for latex in most of teh world is a tex block set up for US letter, but placed in a pdf specifying A4 page dimensions. which really isn't a great default. LaTeX could make the typesetting block default to the same default as the page size (it has that information to hand) ...

@barbarabeeton ... which would mean the default here was A4 in A4 and for you US Letter on US Letter, but with the big downside that if you send me a latex source and I process it all line and page breaks will change (unless the \documentclass has [a4paper] or [letterpaper] etc to force the interpretation. I'm not sure that is a change we can do...

Paulo Cereda

@PabloGonzálezL ah: github.com/cereda/fedora-postinstall

David Carlisle

15:25

I have implemented your reccommendations, and it still does not work for me. — Juan 35 mins ago

We could just blame @egreg

barbara beeton

@PauloCereda -- Thanks. Agreed and noted.

Paulo Cereda

@barbarabeeton <3

barbara beeton

@Skillmon -- An attack rabbit!!

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda I had reviewed it before (jejjej), the problem of fedora (like other distributions) are the dependencies, it costs a lot to leave according to dnf.

Paulo Cereda

@PabloGonzálezL ooh :)

barbara beeton

15:31

@FaheemMitha -- The origin of this form for this use is Mathematica.

David Carlisle

15:42

@PabloGonzálezL * [new tag] release-7.00d -> release-7.00d

Faheem Mitha

@barbarabeeton I see.

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle Great, thank

David Carlisle

@PabloGonzálezL I didn't change the theorem style patching this time, ran out of time and needed to push this out as link borders were completely broken with dvips and new gs.

barbara beeton

@Skillmon -- Fairly often, a submitted paper shows up at AMS specifying A4 paper, and when it's sent to the laser printer to get a copy to edit, it always hangs the printer. That's merely an annoyance, but it does take time and ties up the printer until someone goes to reset it.

David Carlisle

15:58

@barbarabeeton that will happen anyway (already now) if any draft that specifies[a4paper] uses graphics or hyperref or geometry

Pablo González L

@DavidCarlisle For the next :), apss, add to your list update Copyright at hluatex.dtx

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- Unless I grossly misunderstand, the type block dimensions established in a document class won't be changed by changing the dimensions of the paper. (Provided, of course, that geometry isn't used, which really fouls up everything if a document is submitted to a publisher that provides dedicated document classes.)

@DavidCarlisle -- As I said, A4 vs. letterpaper is only an annoyance. It's the use of geometry (or something like savetrees) that causes real problems, because proper breaks in math are critical.

Rmano

@PabloGonzálezL I have a "portable" TeXLive in a subdirectory, so I can test with the bleeding edge and with the released Ubuntu packages (which I think it's important, given that most users are practically stuck there). I struggled a bit to set it up at first but (with unvaluable help from this chat) it is working...

Ulrike Fischer

16:14

@barbarabeeton no we are not discussing to change the typesetting, only if we should ensure that the pdf page size is always (and not only if graphics or hyperref or a modern class is used) equal to the latex lengths \paperwidth and \paperheight.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton that's what I suggest above changing the type block would be one way to avoid the current situation that for most of the world they default to a type block designed for us letter but set on A4. (But I don't think that is workable, so the question is what to do...)

barbara beeton

@UlrikeFischer -- Oh, I didn't think that the typesetting would change, but if the default letterpaper is changed to A4, that really would be a dislocation for users in some areas. At the AMS it's easy enough to figure out that the reason a printer is hung because of the requested paper size, but if the same thing happens unexpectedly on someone's home system, it's likely to be more confusing.

Ulrike Fischer

@barbarabeeton Well the paper would only change to A4 if the document requests A4 with \documentclass[a4paper]{article}. So probably they would want it. Beside this: currently the pdf page size doesn't change if you do \documentclass[a4paper]{article}, or it suddenly changes if the user adds a package like hyperref or graphics and this is imho much more confusing.

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- I agree that always changing the type block would be absolutely the wrong thing to do. How many document classes start with paper size and calculate the type block from that, rather than specifying explicit dimensions?

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton the standard classes do that but use a definition of "paper size" to mean "US Letter or size specified by a4paper or similar option" The question is whether it should default to using the size specified by the pdftex primitive \pdfpagewidth or equivalent which is set by a site configuration to be US Letter for you and A4 for everyone else

@barbarabeeton the safest thing to do (which would be no change to you) would be to act as if graphics or hyperref were pre-loaded, but then everyone gets the annoyance that you describe above that by default they generate USletter pdfs which can hang a printer waiting for the us letter input tray to be filled

Pablo González L

16:31

@Rmano I have a "portable" TeXLive in a subdirectory, so I can test with the bleeding edge and with the released Ubuntu packages (which I think it's important, given that most users are practically stuck there). I struggled a bit to set it up at first but (with unvaluable help from this chat) it is working...

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- I think you've got that backwards. A USletter pdf would hang a printer that has only an A4 paper tray.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton yes exactly, and most of the world have A4 printers but latex by default generates US Letter documents, so if latex was "fixed" to make the pdf page size match the typeset area, most of the world would have documents that do not match the printer they have.

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- Maybe the solution (a bad one) is to require every job to specify the desired paper size.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton well yes you could make \documentclass{article} an error and it has to be \documentclass[a4paper]{article} (or letterpaper) which avoids the problem but invalidates every latex tutorial ever written and a large proportion of the exiting corpus of latex documents. Basically there is no good answer here:-)

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- The typeset area often has nothing to do with the paper size. The AMS document classes are mostly directed at a final trim size of 7x10 inches, and some to a final size even smaller (think "pocket books").

Ulrike Fischer

16:38

@DavidCarlisle But this is already the case for say 95% of all documents using one of the standard classes. Our document hang in my printer too because we used hyperref and graphics. If this were such a large problem we should remove the code from graphics and hyperref ...

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton yes sure and in classic tex (including classic latex) there was no notion of papersize anyway the di just starts at 1 inch in and you typeset the text and the page size is whatever size your paper is, but real people these days use pdf and theer you need a size to tell the viewer what to do. and pdflatex (including pdflatex in dvi mode does know the size it is specifying)

@UlrikeFischer yes I think not changing the typeset area but making the pdf page size match (ie acting as if graphics loaded) is the only possible change, even though I'm tempted to want to go the other way and allow typeset area and page size to be set as a site default...

@UlrikeFischer actually could have an explicit option for that \documentclass[sitepaper]{article} meaning pick up \pdfpagewidth and do something sensible.... if you wanted the document to modify itself to local conditions

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle that would be an option.

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- While "sitepaper" sounds nice, consider the case in which a draft has lines numbered for the purpose of identifying editing comments. A pdf would keep everything valid, but reprocessing would foul things up seriously. So we're back to "no good answer".

Ulrike Fischer

@barbarabeeton you could drop letterpaper and use A4 too ;-)

barbara beeton

16:55

@UlrikeFischer -- That would be very expensive for the AMS, not to mention the relative difficulty of obtaining a reliable supply of "odd-sized" paper. Plus needing new office furniture, and not being compatible with the government, etc., etc. (But you did include a smiley.)

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton yes but if you explicitly opt in to that then don't reference line numbers, just as you would not reference a line number in a displayed html page

@barbarabeeton I think @UlrikeFischer meant the country not just the AMS

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- Within the past few months, I was required to read and comment on a paper that was line-numbered. AMS doesn't use that method, but other publishers do. Publishers are loath to change their procedures; it's very costly, and a switchover can take years. (Sigh.)

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton yes sure but you simply wouldn't accept that manuscript if it was opting in to site-specific formatting

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- Do you really want to try to change the practices of this government? (As much as I'd like to, for some things.) You can't even affect what happens with your own.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton The UK changed to A4 from imperial sized paper within my lifetime, it's not impossible

Paulo Cereda

17:02

oopsie

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- No. If the subject editors accept a manuscript, the office can't reject it. The only option the office has is to have it re-input.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton I am aware that the USA is bigger than the UK :-)

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- Unless the U.S. educational system becomes more effective (and fact-based), I fear it's close to hopeless.

Pablo González L

@PhelypeOleinik you have an email :-)

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton the [sitepaper] option would just be the same as this that you could do now, so in theory it wouldn't change anything, just make some options easier (which is not necessarily good)

\ifdim\pdfpagewidth=597.50787pt
\documentclass[a4paper]{article}
\else
\documentclass[usletter]{article}
\fi

\begin{document}

zzz
\end{document}

Joseph Wright

17:10

@barbarabeeton TUGboat submission on it's way to you :)

barbara beeton

@JosephWright -- Thanks!

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright lualatex-dev ;-). Is the consolas font for you so large too?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer It's a bit big, yes, but I'm not sure @barbarabeeton will keep it anyway :) I picked it only because I need the glyph coverage for things like Greek accents and grosses Eszett in monotype

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright ooh

@UlrikeFischer ooh

Harald Hanche-Olsen

17:36

@DavidCarlisle I am sure they'll change back one of these days, just to spite the EU.

Paulo Cereda

ooh let's use B4

Alan Munn

@HaraldHanche-Olsen The UK adopted the standard in 1959 according to Wikipedia, so you'd need some revisionist history to do so. But that's pretty much the Brexiteers' modus operandi so who knows.

The article is quite interesting. It also explains how the sizes of technical drawing pens are designed to match the scaling factors of the paper, something I had no idea about.

Paulo Cereda

> Microsoft is Testing Ads in WordPad in Windows 10

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda Soon to be extortion-ware?

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn yep :)

Harald Hanche-Olsen

17:51

@AlanMunn I had noticed scaling factors of technical drawing pens before, but never connected that to paper sizes. Interesting.

Skillmon

@JosephWright I don't quite get the difference between \TEST and \TESTEXP from the description :(

Skillmon

18:03

@JosephWright also in the documentation of the Epoch setting (2.7) there is a 1463734800 variable referenced, afaik that's not a legal variable name in any programming language, so I assume an error here.

Phelype Oleinik

@PabloGonzálezL Will take a look in a minute

Skillmon

Ok \TESTEXP can only test fully expandable code it seems. Maybe that was too clear?

Joseph Wright

@Skillmon Ah: \TEST is for non-expandable things, so you have to actively print them, \TESTEXP is like \message: the content needs to be expandable

@Skillmon ER, possible

Skillmon

1 min ago, by Skillmon

Ok \TESTEXP can only test fully expandable code it seems. Maybe that was too clear?

I could've guessed based on the names...

David Carlisle

18:28

@PauloCereda foolscap more likely

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh

Alan Munn

18:48

@DavidCarlisle That's a term I haven't heard in a long time.

@DavidCarlisle And I think when I learned it (in Canada), it was used to refer to US Legal size in fact.

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda you have an issue on git :)

barbara beeton

19:08

@AlanMunn -- A quick survey of definitions for foolscap on the web shows a great deal of inconsistency. The use of paper of this size appears always to be legal, but the location of its use is British or European, not the U.S. The measurements also vary, but are invariably not identical to the standard U.S. legal (8.5x14 inches). It is considered to have been superseded by A4. (Not intending to be contradictory here, but I was curious, being myself uncertain.)

Alan Munn

@barbarabeeton Yes I suspected that was the case, since Canada uses US sizes for paper, and both UK foolscap and US Legal are oddly long sheets.

barbara beeton

@AlanMunn -- One of the sets of dimensions given for foolscap (the closest) is 8.5x13.5 inches -- just a bit shorter than that for U.S. legal paper. Other examples differ wildly.

Paulo Cereda

19:34

@PabloGonzálezL Thanks. :)

Paulo Cereda

19:46

@PabloGonzálezL replied. :)

Pablo González L

@PauloCereda Thank you very much :)

Sebastiano

20:08

@DavidCarlisle Very kind David in relation of this question: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/524949/… the name of the book is: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions for Absolute Continuity of Elliptic- Harmonic Measure. see this link: jstor.org/stable/2006966?origin=crossref&seq=1

Phelype Oleinik

@PauloCereda They are doing the “name this thing” thing again: mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover

@PauloCereda I think “Rover McRoverface” should be an option

David Carlisle

@Sebastiano yep I got there but I hadn't noticed it is one of the documents jstor makes available without an account

Sebastiano

@PhelypeOleinik Hi, very kind.

Phelype Oleinik

@Sebastiano Hello :-)

Sebastiano

@DavidCarlisle In fact. If you seen the preview it is an old book and I doubt that there a source with free pdf without account. It is since 1984 and peraphs it is written in TeX.

@DavidCarlisle If you seen at this link link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02392215 you have a free pdf. But it is a scan of the article/book.

David Carlisle

20:22

@Sebastiano '84 doesn't seem that old to me:-) but yes you are right, it's a scan of annals of math (someone (@barbarabeeton?) would know what fonts they were using) but the question is nonsense anyway a phi is a phi

@Sebastiano you could point him to any one of 1000 answers to your questions where I have said you should not select individual characters from individual fonts:-)

Sebastiano

@DavidCarlisle :-):-) Yes, of course :-):-). For my humble opinion there is not a pdf....for the 2nd your comment: aahhah. Certainly.

@DavidCarlisle Look here: projecteuclid.org/download/pdf_1/euclid.acta/1485889737 there is the famous \phi.

It is only a scan.

David Carlisle

@Sebastiano yep but even if we found out what fonts the journal was using at the time, knowing the name of a lump of lead moulded into that shape doesn't really help, so I'm ignoring the question now. it's just a \varphi

Oh you made my day. My guess was right (missing am fonts) and @egreg's was wrong:-) — David Carlisle 9 mins ago

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- A lot looks like the paper was set with TeX, but some features of the fonts are questionable w.r.t. cm. Maybe am, but I don't have a good example of those to compare. Questionable clues: the numerals; the shape of \in; the fact that it's a scan shouldn't make any difference there. So I'm not sure. (But you're correct about the \varphi.)

Sebastiano

@DavidCarlisle Dear David, mine was just a curiosity: the research concluded that we cannot identify the fonts used, considering that they are only scans. I did the research and did not understand the last part of your comment. :-):-)

@barbarabeeton Hi barbara

David Carlisle

20:46

@Sebastiano yes I left a comment under the original question correcting my earlier comment that the acrobat font menu would list the fonts.

@barbarabeeton annals of math in '84, were they using tex already?

@barbarabeeton the fact that it's a scan means you can't just load it into acrobat and ask what fonts are there

egreg

@Sebastiano A phi is a phi. Even if you like the particular shape in some font, there's no point in importing it when you use a different font.

Sebastiano

21:03

@DavidCarlisle Ok! On acrobat -> propriety I have seen only times, arial, and peraphs Courier.

@egreg Yes I agree with you. But the user he wanted that specific \phi or \varphi.

David Carlisle

@Sebastiano yes but that's the jstor cover page fonts, there is no information about the actual document as there are no fonts just an image of each page.

@Sebastiano the user asked for that (as you have asked in the past) but users can be wrong:-)

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- Update on the article in question ... On rechecking, the entries at both the Springer and projecteuclid sites show the publication date as December 1972. So, way before TeX. But since the appearance is very close in many ways to what TeX output would look like, I suspect that it was composed with Monotype Modern No. 8, the model on which CM was based.

Sebastiano

@DavidCarlisle ahahahaahahh of course. But I've stopped asking those kinds of questions

Diaa

21:18

@DavidCarlisle I have been comfortable with spaces but I will consider your point by replacing them with dashes.

egreg

@barbarabeeton I agree.

Diaa

@DavidCarlisle I just needed to run it once. From the security point of view, I don't realize how dangerous running -shell-escape is but I face many questions where their solutions need it enabled.

barbara beeton

@Sebastiano -- Hi to you too.

Harald Hanche-Olsen

If we're now done identifying old fonts, how about some jazz from Catalonia?

Skillmon

21:41

@JosephWright I wanted to test whether all errors are correctly caught and found a peculiar difference between LuaTeX and pdfTeX: They're shortening context of errors differently. The context in *.log has 11 characters more than in *.tlg for errors thrown with \errmessage.

Joseph Wright

@Skillmon Yes :(

@Skillmon We know that: a reasonable number of .luatex.tlg files are due to differences in logging

Skillmon

@JosephWright is it possible to run one specific test file with a different format?

@JosephWright funny enough that was only true for \errmessage the undefined control sequences errors have the same length.

Joseph Wright

@Skillmon It's not all exactly easy to follow ;)

@Skillmon Easiest method is to use a separate configuration (see l3build itself)

Skillmon

@JosephWright so I'd have to run l3build check twice :(

Joseph Wright

@Skillmon No

@Skillmon You tell the main build.lua about the configs, then it runs each of them

David Carlisle

22:08

@Skillmon look at eg hyperref checkconfigs = {"build","config-pvt","config-3","config-xetex"} where the config-xetex tests just use xetex

Skillmon

@DavidCarlisle thanks. Same is done in l3build's own build.lua as I know saw.

David Carlisle

@Skillmon oh yes Joseph just said that, sorry:-)

Skillmon

@DavidCarlisle no problem, I tend to don't be mad because people wanted to help me.

David Carlisle

@Skillmon you'll never get on on the internet with an attitude like that.

yo'

22:35

@UlrikeFischer Thanks. So basically unicode-math increases the options for math fonts by a couple fonts. My question is mostly whether it's stable enough and reasonably bug-free. I remember some older versions were very problematic...

Paulo Cereda

22:47

@PhelypeOleinik YES! :)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh

Joseph Wright

@yo' Pretty stable, yes

Paulo Cereda

@HaraldHanche-Olsen gringos singing Brazilian Portuguese, how amusing. :)

yo'

23:13

@JosephWright that's great to hear!

Btw, I'll be in London April 19-25 (probably), any chance to catch one of you guys? @DavidCarlisle @JosephWright I'll then probably be goind north to Scotland (never been there, so I have to!)

David Carlisle

23:37

@yo' I just heard ams are using it (and xelatex) for most of their books

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