@yo' -- I guess I've just been brainwashed by all the forms I've had to sign recently, that all ask for the date in the form MMDDYY. Always out of step with the rest of the world ...

@barbarabeeton I take it, it's a nice observation, but I couldn't resist...

@DavidCarlisle Hehehe, I saw a little late the message, I was going to place an issue relating to the section "Bundle installation", but @Ulrike Fischer has already mentioned it, the other is that for some strange reason, when seeing the documentation (PDF) in some places appear the characters of "visible space" in the section "Script installation" of attachfile2 for example (in the version I have updated in TeXLive)....

@PabloGonzálezL i don't see the _ ? do you have a screenshot you could upload here?

@DavidCarlisle I don't know how to upload a screenshot...texdoc attachfile2 page 45

Ups...to easy upload

@PabloGonzálezL ah thanks yes I see same at anorien.csc.warwick.ac.uk/mirrors/CTAN/macros/latex/contrib/… good news is it's not in the version I have here to upload (but I'd better check the other oberdiek packages that have not been split, as they are made by the older build script still, thanks)

@yo' famous for its shaky bus rides … as you well know (I searched this chat for “shaky bus”) (@PauloCereda)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh shaky buses

@yo' wow, that's a long ride!

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I do know, I took the shaky bus!

@yo' <3

@UlrikeFischer @PabloGonzálezL I felt braver this morning github.com/ho-tex/oberdiek/commit/…

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle the brave little toaster

@PauloCereda I tried @CarLaTeX's latest question, but:

$ arara cc358
  __ _ _ __ __ _ _ __ __ _
 / _` | '__/ _` | '__/ _` |
| (_| | | | (_| | | | (_| |
 \__,_|_|  \__,_|_|  \__,_|

Processing 'cc358.tex' (size: 484 bytes, last modified:
11/24/2019 09:38:25), please wait.

(PDFLaTeX) PDFLaTeX engine ..............................   ERROR

The system command execution has failed due to an IO error. Are
you sure the provided system command exists in your path? It
might be a good idea to check the path and see if the command is
available. There are more details available on this exception:

@DavidCarlisle you had a sharp sword ;-)

@DavidCarlisle Oh... Cygwin?

We added the Cygwin switch exactly to make the pdflatex symlink work when arara being executed inside this environment. Looks like I forgot to include it in the rules. :)

@PauloCereda yep, actually if I run it by hand it fails on the pythontex code anyway, but I don't think arara got that far

$ pythontex cc358
This is PythonTeX 0.17

----  Messages for py:default:default  ----
  Traceback (most recent call last):
* PythonTeX stderr - error on line 18:
    File "<outputdir>/py_default_default.py", line 53, in <module>
      import pandas as pd
  ImportError: No module named pandas

--------------------------------------------------
PythonTeX:  cc358 - 1 error(s), 0 warning(s)

@DavidCarlisle no, IO error probably means pdflatex wasn't found.

% arara: pdftex: { shell: yes, options: [ '--fmt=pdflatex' ] }

@PauloCereda I have a cygwin pdflatex, a texlive 2016,17,18,19 pdflatex a wsl pdflatex and a texllive2019/dev pdflatex, arar really needs to look harder if it can't find any of them:-)

@DavidCarlisle ^^ could you try this header?

@DavidCarlisle wow, you are turning into @JosephWright :)

$ arara cc358
  __ _ _ __ __ _ _ __ __ _
 / _` | '__/ _` | '__/ _` |
| (_| | | | (_| | | | (_| |
 \__,_|_|  \__,_|_|  \__,_|

Processing 'cc358.tex' (size: 540 bytes, last modified:
11/24/2019 09:43:54), please wait.

(PDFTeX) PDFTeX engine .................................. SUCCESS

I could not find a rule named 'pythontex' in the provided rule
paths. Perhaps a misspelled word? I was looking for a file named
'pythontex.yaml' in the following paths in order of priority:
(C:\cygwin64\usr\local\texlive\2019\texmf-dist\scripts\arara\rules)

@DavidCarlisle well, that's an improvement. :)

@PauloCereda cygwin not having a native java build is really odd, It makes any java application need to dance around file paths, hits me at work all the time as I use the java xslt implementation usually. It's not really reasonable for every application individually to have to handle the virtual cygwin filesystem root

@DavidCarlisle indeed.

@DavidCarlisle I'm on Windows 10, if it is useful

@PauloCereda if I have complete control I can call cygpath or set up some symbolic links so the right paths are used or the wrong paths work, but when you have a chain of arara using javas file io calling python calling tex and you are never sure which parts of the system have detected cygwin and it's usually easier just to skip it.

@CarLaTeX so am I but I don't have a windows tex installed:-)

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle one for our plans (@TeXnician) :)

@PauloCereda long (or actually not so long) term I expect cygwin is doomed and wsl will take over, then you are just using the linux binaries and things are somewhat simpler

@DavidCarlisle Ah

@DavidCarlisle so it's technically your fault

:D

@CarLaTeX I don't have the right python modules (panda) installed it seems but can't you just apply a python regex replace to replace_ by \_ before printing it back to tex?

@PauloCereda no

@DavidCarlisle ooh pandas

@DavidCarlisle quack

@PauloCereda extinct, apparently

@PauloCereda Sunday Lunch

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@DavidCarlisle I'll do it as soon as I learn how to do it (I'm learning Python for business purposes)

@UlrikeFischer on mleftright, if I do lualatex testfiles/mleftright-test1.lvt in oberdiek I get

@UlrikeFischer an indented message which would pass the test (I also get a terrifyingly large amount of luaotfload messages:-)

This is LuaTeX, Version 1.10.0 (TeX Live 2019)  (format=lualatex 2019.11.19)  24 NOV 2019 10:00
 restricted system commands enabled.
**testfiles/mleftright-test1.lvt
(./testfiles/mleftright-test1.lvt
LaTeX2e <2019-10-01> patch level 3
Lua module: luaotfload-main 2019-11-10 3.11 luaotfload entry point
Lua module: luaotfload-init 2019-11-10 3.11 luaotfload submodule / initializatio
n
Lua module: lualibs 2019-11-06 2.69 ConTeXt Lua standard libraries.
Lua module: lualibs-extended 2019-11-06 2.69 ConTeXt Lua libraries -- extended c

@DavidCarlisle I just checked only the test and it passed. I'm now running the whole suite again.

@UlrikeFischer ok thanks, running here as well (I just updated build.lua to disable l3build ctan but that shouldn't affect the tests, I haven't checked yet if removing that attachfile text breaks any of the catchfile tests, we'll see..

@UlrikeFischer the catchfile ones do fail but I think it's a real error: where I deleted the attachfile comment I left a blank line which is showing as \par. I'll adjust

trying again...

Which (expandable) ways can you imagine to test whether a single token is a digit? The solution I use so far is to \ifx test against each digit from 0 to 9. But this is sooo slow (taking 59 ops on average for tests for each digit from 0-9 and a non-digit token).

How robust should \ifnum1<1\noexpand#1\expandafter\@secondofthree\fi\@secondoftwo be? It works for my current test cases.

@StefanKottwitz the certificate of texwelt.de seems to outdated.

forgot a space in that definition \ifnum1<1\noexpand#1 \expandafter\@secondofthree\fi\@secondoftwo is the definition I currently test.

@UlrikeFischer Wow, normally I get a mail before expiring. So I renewed the texnique.fr right today. That one I missed.

@StefanKottwitz depending on the certificate authority you can set up a cron job auto-renewing the certificate...

@UlrikeFischer fixed, via satellite drifting near Singapore ...

@Skillmon I noticed it requires manual intervention often (such as not putting files in ../texwelt.de/ but in ./texwelt.de-0001/

@Skillmon In the moment I do it manually in response to mail notifications

@Skillmon I guess I can align the times and then do all at the same time regularly

@Skillmon I was going to suggest something similar, or of course you can test \ifnum`\noexpand#1 is between 48 and 57

@DavidCarlisle range testing is slower... And I think that containing the \noexpand the only things which yield true (after asserting it's a single un-braced token) should be the digits 0 through 9.

@StefanKottwitz as of now I didn't notice such problems for my (one) server (which I don't maintain alone...)

@DavidCarlisle and the assertions (one token, not braced) have to be done for the range testing, too.

@Skillmon yes not surprised it's slower, just more understandable, but yes I think your test is safe

@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright just pushed to pdftexcmds an l3build tag function that implements the main bit of my emacs support for ho-tex files, it finds the current version, increments the minor version by one, then updates that date+version everywhere except the change log, and adds a new changelog entry. (or at least of you try l3build tag with no arguments, I hope that's what happens:-)

@DavidCarlisle that means if I call l3build tag twice it will update the version by 2 steps?

@UlrikeFischer yes

@UlrikeFischer but it means in something like oberdiek with dozens of files all with different version numbers, you can tell it to bump all of them by one.

@DavidCarlisle then I hope that I never type by accident l3build tag twice ;-)

@UlrikeFischer just reading the bangla/xetex/luatex/luahbtex article in tugboat (probably needs some corrections and updates but interesting still)

@UlrikeFischer oh I just did it several times, but with git checkout pdftexcmds.dtx in between each:-)

@UlrikeFischer it might be safer to instead of making that the "no argument" version that it takes a specific argument say auto so you have to use l3build tag auto ?

@DavidCarlisle yes, at least for me. The other repos (e.g. luaotfload) tag by using a variable in build.lua. So a keyword would be nice.

@UlrikeFischer I'll do that, as we split things up it might be less important to have it determine the current version automatically, as there might be just one version per repository but ....

@UlrikeFischer done

@DavidCarlisle I hadn't realized that there is a new tugboat ;-(. I looked now at the bangla article, that is quite interesting but I'm not sure if e.g. they actually used harf mode with luahbtex.

@UlrikeFischer no I don't think he did

@UlrikeFischer perhaps @barbarabeeton can put you in touch and then try his examples with a properly configured luahbtex....

@UlrikeFischer I'm thinking of doing the ctan release now rather than leave it until I'm falling asleep, any last minute objections?

@DavidCarlisle no, I did run the tests in oberdiek and they didn't fail for me now.

@UlrikeFischer OK, thanks

@PabloGonzálezL ^^^^

@DavidCarlisle When running l3build check some tests are marked as failed, is that by design or not relevant?

Ups...hola :)

@PabloGonzálezL which? they should all pass (but you need to install the updated pdftexcmds package from github now it is separated out)

@PabloGonzálezL I'm going to push to ctan anyway, they all pass for me and for @UlrikeFischer, and I have a small time window now to make 5 ctan uploads.... (oberdiek, pdftexcmds, epstopdf, attachfile2,pdfcolmk)

@DavidCarlisle Great, I think the ctan team will be happy :)

@DavidCarlisle A question (for the future), will be integrated the functionalities of grfext to graphicx?

@DavidCarlisle I thought about his problem to print "the glyphs themselves without the dotted circle". Actually you can do it if you don't use harf mode but node mode. So this is really an example where both mode are useful.

@PabloGonzálezL perhaps (although not sure it is so useful, it is used by epstopdf to add .eps but that's not been needed for yars as the default list has .eps already) but if people like it something coul dbe added

@UlrikeFischer @PabloGonzálezL all gone bar epstopdf as i noticed that has to be ctan:pkg/epstopdf-pkg as ctan:pkg/epstopdf is the actual conversion script repackinging that now....

all uploaded (I'll git tag the releases once ctan confirm they are in)

Add grfext I think it would be a good idea, when working with images in different formats PNG|PDF those of us who were (and are) novices took a long time to understand the "search order" of the extensions for the images.

@PabloGonzálezL I don't think there are many places where it should be changed. given that you are making pdf then if you have png and pdf then chances are it is better to include the pdf. the main use case for omitting the extension is to support the use case where the systems support different extension so.png with pdftex and .eps with latex/dvips for example

I understand, but, if I don't remember badly if you have image.png and image.pdf and you include them without extension, pdflatex takes by default .png ...I remember taking a long time searching in the documentation (years ago) how the extensions worked (I used swp5 and win98)..from there I use grfext

@PabloGonzálezL no it tries .pdf then ,png

I didn't know... I think I stayed in the past (tex.stackexchange.com/a/72939/7832)...

@PabloGonzálezL well possibly 90% of the collection is addressing problems that don't exist any more (which is luatex.sty deleted, why grffile, and pdfcolmk made more or less empty, etc..:-)

@DavidCarlisle I definitely need to update my readings, that reminds me that maybe the oberdiek installation instructions should be updated too (who uses teTeX today?). The package grfext I remember quite well because I added it to pst2pdf years ago and then incorporated it to ltximg ... I still remember the hour and a half it took to update oberdiek in MikTeX win98 with my 56k modem ...

@PabloGonzálezL tetex == texlive :-)

@PabloGonzálezL that was download speeds! you want to try uploading a new latex release over a modem:(

@DavidCarlisle Jejejej... yes, but TeXLive is much more than teTeX .... upload something with a modem connection...I didn't even try it in those years :( ...thanks to the sky my university had a slightly (but very little) more dignified connection :)

@PabloGonzálezL normally I could use a university or later work connection, but I did do at least a couple of releases from here, (an overnight job...)

@DavidCarlisle If my sisters had not been glued to the phone with their boyfriends at that time perhaps I would have tried to get something up... I think I preferred to abuse my university connection, it was simpler than asking them to let go of the phone at that time... what memories :)

Petra has installed oberdiek and pdftexcmds, hopefully the others will follow with no issues.

Great, thanks, I'll wait for the update.

@UlrikeFischer @PabloGonzálezL all 5 accepted with no issues

Was there a LaTeX mechanism to replace say foo.sty with foo-dev.sty even though foo-dev.sty does \ProvidesPackage{foo} without it issuing a warning.

@Skillmon not directl (you could of course adjust \ProvidesPackage but normally, as for the current latex -dev releases keep the package names the same, so latex/graphics/color.sty and latex-dev/graphics/color.sty

@DavidCarlisle Petra wasn't there? ;-)

@UlrikeFischer petra did oberdiek and pdftexcmds, manfred the other three

@DavidCarlisle A query (I always have some, sorry), some time ago you updated tkz-euclide and the author @Alain Matthes is active again (apparently) and soon to release a new version (tex.stackexchange.com/a/517600/7832) but it is only available on your website, as you already gave yourself the tremendous job of uploading it to github, maybe I could tell you... (just as an idea)

@PabloGonzálezL do you know if the changes I made have been pulled back, I'll ask him I can't actually remember why I picked them up (I think it was luatex broke something, or perhaps a latex change) but Alain wasn't able to work on TeX at that time. If he is editing the sources then I should kill that github (Alain can of course have write access to it if he wants, I'll contact him....)

@PabloGonzálezL oh etex guard against loading etex package in current latex

@DavidCarlisle Yes, there goes my idea of contacting the author, hopefully adopt github, it is easier to collaborate with some things.

@PabloGonzálezL well clearly the archive he links to is based off the original sources there are a lot of changes but my changes around not using etex.sty have been undone...

@DavidCarlisle I hope the author is aware of the updates. One of many virtues of github is that everyone can see the code clearly and collaborate, in this forum, in addition to the many TeXpert there are also many tikzxperts :)

@PabloGonzálezL I just sent him mail, saying he can have write access to that github, or I can archive or delete or make private or otherwise close them down, it's got to be his choice, they are his files, I have only the faintest idea what they do (or what the manual says:-)

@DavidCarlisle That's great :)

hey @DavidCarlisle is there something i can read about where the various typographical design decisions and traditions came from for latex? like margin sizes and font sizes and so on?

someone asked me if it it was related to the fibonacci sequence or golden ratio

@voices no

and i remember you said once there were very particular reasons for these things, so that's why i asked

@voices the overall page size is given by the common paper sizes, and the text width aims for a reasonable number of characters per line, so that sets the (large) margins, but the choice of font sizes for headings etc is somewhat eccentric.

@voices I've said a lot of things over many years, some of which may even have been true, but without context hard to say. there are of course reasons for the design, but many of them relate to consistency with latex2.09

so no fancy math or interesting formulas or anything.. they weren't actually talking about latex in particular. more typography in general, but i think professional typographers tend to use latex. maybe they don't , i don't actually know

@voices oh there are respected typography manuals suggesting layouts influenced by golden ratio but they are not directly used in latex's standard styles.

oh, do you know of any in particular?

i'm interested in reading about leading, kerning, tracking, ems and picas and pt sizes, etc.

@voices bringhurst's elements of typographical style is a classic book in the area, ages since I read it but seaching for those words turns up references such as inkwell.ie/typography/typographic-style.html

thanks

@DavidCarlisle did you get the mtpro2 mail?

@UlrikeFischer answered:-)

@DavidCarlisle thanks. I hope the "since 1993" is safe enough ;-)

@UlrikeFischer it was one of the first things we (me, I think) did when setting up the changes from 2.09 at the start of 2e work:-)

@DavidCarlisle I didn't try to understand why it should matter - the newcount isn't in a group.

@UlrikeFischer I think once it was in an if guard,

@DavidCarlisle so the dtx code was the problem? How odd.

@UlrikeFischer no the dtx stripping treats it verbatim, I think the comment is just copied from some older context