TeX, LaTeX and Friends

CarLaTeX

06:21

@ShreevatsaR Wow!

@egreg Wow, wow!

user89

06:45

```
\newcommand*{\eulerfont}{\fontfamily{ccr}\selectfont}
\newcommand*{\fnn}[1]{\ensuremath{\eulerfont #1}}
```

this doesn't change the font when i do something like $\fnn{x}$ -- any ideas?

David Carlisle

07:39

@user89 they are text font settings, math is more complicated as there is not a single "current font" each character is (by default) assigned to one of 16 (or 256 in xetex/luatex) math groups (fonts)

you want to define \fnn by \DeclareMathAlphabet\fnn{OT1}{crr}{m}{n} or some such

David Carlisle

08:01

@WillRobertson vvvvv

\documentclass{article}

\ifx\Umathchardef\undefined\else\usepackage{unicode-math}\fi

\ifx\directlua\undefined\else
\ExplSyntaxOn\makeatletter
\cs_set:Nn \__um_setmathfont:nn
  {

    \__um_init:n {#2}
    \cs_set_eq:NN \glb@currsize \scan_stop:
    \cs_if_exist:cF { S@ \f@size } { \calculate@math@sizes }
    \use:c { S@ \f@size }

    \keys_set_known:nnN {unicode-math} {#1} \l__um_unknown_keys_clist

    \bool_if:NT \l__um_init_bool
      {
        \__um_fontspec_trial_font:
        \__um_declare_math_sizes:

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ^^^^^^^^^

@WillRobertson @HaraldHanche-Olsen not sure I understand fully what's going on there but tracing the differences between xetex (which was OK) and luatex (which added a space) leads to the lines marked %HERE and if they are removed the extra group goes and the aftergroup does not trigger the global restore in the wrong place. But I don't know what the commands do or what other effects commenting them out will have.....

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@DavidCarlisle $$\relax$$ is the most relaxing math display I ever didn't see.

David Carlisle

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I copied it from @PauloCereda's thesis

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@DavidCarlisle Another thing I never saw!

David Carlisle

@HaraldHanche-Olsen you have seen it all though

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@DavidCarlisle Now I've seen everything.

David Carlisle

08:07

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I am not convinced that that is a completely valid conclusion, but then I don't know the logical framework that you are working under

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@DavidCarlisle You expect logic, of all things, in this chat?

3

@DavidCarlisle I didn't know that LaTeX contains ExplSyntax without loading a package. Since when did that happen? I don't see it in latex.ltx.

Paulo Cereda

08:35

@DavidCarlisle oi

HAPPY PIZZA DAY

2

Harald Hanche-Olsen

Uh, silly me – it's the unicode-math package that pulls in expl3, of course. 🤪

Christian Hupfer

@HaraldHanche-Olsen The chat is in fact very logic, in terms of a duck logical algebra ... or pizza logics ;-)

@PauloCereda: Duck logical algebra is not be confused with duck counting strategies: zero, one, many ;-)

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@ChristianHupfer I think you just proved my point.

@ChristianHupfer Or counting the pages in a thesis: Zero, zero, zero, …

Christian Hupfer

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Yes, it is a weird logic

@HaraldHanche-Olsen :D:D... or is that not meaning that there pages that are just numbered with zero?

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer it's all very simple. However don't forget the pure duck calculus is untyped. :)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen OI

David Carlisle

08:45

@HaraldHanche-Olsen it is loading a package (unicode-math)

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I already figured it out (see above). It happened in a sudden attack of logic. Not likely to be repeated anytime soon.

David Carlisle

@HaraldHanche-Olsen from Scandinavia I expect constructive type theory to be honest:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

Christian Hupfer

\documentclass{empty}

\author{Some Duck}

\title{Counting strategies of ducks}

\begin{document}
% The thesis content -- finished.
\end{document}

2

@PauloCereda: Citing Monty Python: Just in order to annoy you ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer you naughty German

David Carlisle

09:39

[4/7, 00:07/00:14] auto-install: typewriter (46574) [88k] ... done

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

David Carlisle

10:00

@PauloCereda I think the most informative and well typeset package documentation ever.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle :)

egreg

10:22

@DavidCarlisle How could we do without it?

Paulo Cereda

10:41

@egreg ^^

egreg

@PauloCereda Should I file a lawsuit?

Paulo Cereda

@egreg oh no

David Carlisle

10:57

@egreg you may get a nice little side career on the strength of that recommendation

Ulrike Fischer

11:08

@DavidCarlisle logging of lua-files looks messy ;-). luaotfload mentions the path to the fontloader and luaotfload-names.luc in the log, the .fls-files shows the lualibs-lua-files, luaotfload-characters.lua and the .luc-files but e.g. fontspec.lua is missing.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer does the --recorder thing log lua (never tried)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle Only in part (see my comment about "fls-files").

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer ah Ok, not sure I have ever actually used recorder:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle only trombones?

@WillRobertson HAPPY PIZZA DAY

David Carlisle

@WillRobertson I should probably have put that as a github issue (could still if that would be useful) but it is s stripped down version of an example @HaraldHanche-Olsen posted here

23 hours ago, by David Carlisle

\documentclass{article}


\begin{document}

We study \ldots
\tracingcommands=2 \tracingmacros=2
$$\partial_tu-A\varphi(u)=0.\aftergroup\begingroup\aftergroup\endgroup$$
These equations \newline bla bla
\end{document}

Will Robertson

11:23

:4277029 You are very brave trying to run \tracingall there. The code in that which you commented out that causes the problem is \check@mathfonts. Do you suspect that's incorrect, and I need to dig into this code again?

The short explanation of what is happening here is that LuaTeX uses the LAST maths font that is loaded to initialise all the (equivalent of what it uses instead of) fontdimens. But in unicode-math I need it to be the FIRST maths font.

To be honest I've forgotten the exact reason why \check@mathfonts is there. I think I borrowed that code from Ulrike so maybe she knows...

David Carlisle

@WillRobertson always have a person to blame in case of emergency:-)

2

Paulo Cereda

Dec 2 '17 at 22:30, by Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Blame Joseph?

Will Robertson

@DavidCarlisle The internals of NFSS maths font loading is one of those things I only understand when I'm in the middle of writing the code around it, and then next time I look at the code I just have to trust what I had done...

David Carlisle

@WillRobertson Not got a lot of time this morning perhaps I'll put it in github and point Frank at it, as the example above shows if you aftergroup a \begingroup\endgroup out of a math display then you lose the implicit \unskip so that gives space even in pdftex, but I failed yesterday to get pdftex or xetex to trigger the \aftergroup\glb@settings in the wrong place

@WillRobertson although it looks like that could happen (which would then arguably be a latex format issue) I only actually got it to happen with unicode-math luatex

Paulo Cereda

11:40

Holy cow, arara is insanely popular amongst German TeX users!

Will Robertson

It looks to me like one shouldn't be calling \check@mathfonts in a general context; all the cases in the kernel have it being executed inside a box or math mode or similar. If I replace it by

\ifx \glb@currsize \f@size \else
\glb@settings
\init@restore@glb@settings
\fi

It appears to continue to do the job it's supposed to be doing, without the side-effect.

David Carlisle

@WillRobertson er I trust you (and we can blame @HaraldHanche-Olsen if something breaks)

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@DavidCarlisle Good plan!

Ulrike Fischer

@WillRobertson I have no idea which code you mean but there is a high probability that I used \check@mathfonts only as a ad-hoc way to force rechecking of the math in some example.

Will Robertson

@UlrikeFischer And now I wonder whether that snippet above can be replaced entirely by just \glb@settings... it claims on the box that it only reloads maths fonts when necessary, so the currsize check would seem to be redundant...

Ulrike Fischer

11:55

@DavidCarlisle The reason I asked is that this question: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/414102/…. It boils down to the problem that in context require 'pgf.gd.control' doesn't load pgf/gd/control.lua/ but pgf/gd/force/Control.lua` (remark the additional "force" in the path) and I was wondering if this could happen in latex too. (I have to go now and won't be back for a few hours).

@WillRobertson I think you should ask Frank ;-)

Will Robertson

@UlrikeFischer Eyeballing the code it seems safe! Famous last words when it comes to the NFSS. I need to get to bed I'm afraid...

Paulo Cereda

@WillRobertson what could possibly go wrong? :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda your thesis could fail to typeset

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

Will Robertson

This is all around setting and resetting fontdimens (or rather math params) in LuaTeX :)

I haven't forgotten the request to add some interface here... I just for the life of me can't get the time to concentrate hard enough to figure out how to do that nicely. (The code isn't the hard part, the interface is. Especially since XeTeX is involved too.)

Paulo Cereda

12:17

@DavidCarlisle: I could go to a Decathlon store and buy a cricket kit for us to play in TUG 2018

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda or you could work on your th.....

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

Harald Hanche-Olsen

14:09

Is there any way, when running luatex in TeX mode, to drop into lua interaction mode, as if one were running texlua instead? It seems it could be useful for debugging purposes.

Paulo Cereda

14:19

Hi mr. @marmot! How was the talk?

marmot

@PauloCereda Thanks for asking! It will be in almost 6 hours.

Paulo Cereda

@marmot ooh

barbara beeton

@ChristianHupfer -- oh, i think it's "zero, one, two, several, many". a much richer system, really.

marmot

@PauloCereda Since I don't have the TeX code for the nice pizza day animation, this might be the highlight:

3

Paulo Cereda

@marmot yay!

@marmot @UlrikeFischer: ^^ our resident marmot would like the pizza code. :)

Paulo Cereda

15:09

@TeXnician: would you poke me by mail? :)

TeXnician

@PauloCereda Which mail address should I use?

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician good question: try cereda at users dot sf dot net

TeXnician

@PauloCereda You should have mail.

@PauloCereda Btw: The python code on your home page is a very interesting way to distribute that address ;)

Paulo Cereda

15:24

@TeXnician oh no :)

@TeXnician oh no, nothing arrived so far. I blame SF!

@TeXnician Perhaps trying cereda dot paulo at gmail dot com might be better...

TeXnician

@PauloCereda You may also blame my mail provider which may have some difficulties.

Paulo Cereda

The first should be an alias to that...

@TeXnician we could blame everybody. :)

TeXnician

@PauloCereda Oh no, gmail. They always mark my mails as junk.

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician Ah hold on. Let me check.

@TeXnician No you are not in spam. :)

TeXnician

@PauloCereda Well, maybe it has some delay in delivery. I hope it will come through within the next minutes.

Paulo Cereda

15:30

@TeXnician Let us wait. Want me to poke you instead? :)

TeXnician

@PauloCereda Well, I would prefer to wait as I currently do not communicate my e-mail address in public (due to previous junk).

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician Ah I completely understand. :) Sorry for the trouble, but I am sure you will enjoy some news. :)

TeXnician

@PauloCereda Then I will wait a bit longer.

Paulo Cereda

15:46

@TeXnician: It arrived!

TeXnician

@PauloCereda Good to know.

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician Replied. :) Now let us see if it arrives. :)

TeXnician

@PauloCereda It arrived and I just replied. On another note: Which technology do you plan to use for ArTeXmis? Java with Swing?

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician Yes, or perhaps Groovy. I am still deciding. I thought of JavaFX, but I want better coverage.

TeXnician

@PauloCereda I would love to see JavaFX (maybe even Kotlin which makes life easier). Then I'd be able to contribute some more.

Paulo Cereda

15:54

@TeXnician So far I only managed to run JavaFX with Oracle, and that's definitely a downside for me. I really enjoy OpenJDK. If I manage to make things work with opensource alternatives, I might look into it.

@ShreevatsaR: Hi mr. velociraptor, happy pizza day!

ShreevatsaR

@PauloCereda the same to you

TeXnician

@PauloCereda I'm running OpenJDK with JavaFX here (on Arch Linux). Unfortunately it is still version 8 (so old ;) ). But I've had problems with it before, so completely understand you.

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician Thanks for the comprehension. :) I really want to cover as much scenarios as possible. You probably see how wacky I am by making arara still Java 5 compliant. :)

Even with version 4!

TeXnician

@PauloCereda Oh my. All of my applications are at minimum language level 7, but I do not have that big projects (and control over the updates on my institution's computers). That will be an interesting project (especially with JavaFX) ;)

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician Java 6 or 7 is surely the minimum requirements nowadays. :)

TeXnician

16:04

@PauloCereda Well, starting off a new (and bigger) project I always use the newest version available for Debian stable (which is currently 8). Because I'm mostly sure that it will be everywhere when the program is in a usable state. Some call me pessimistic ;)

Paulo Cereda

@TeXnician Oh if I write something now, it will definitely be version 7 or 8. :)

TeXnician

@PauloCereda My private projects are all in language level 8 as I love those lambda expressions (and JavaFX has some nice additions).

Ulrike Fischer

@PauloCereda you have it and can forward it.

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer Thakns :)

Ulrike Fischer

@PauloCereda It is no secret. I will upload it to GitHub this week end (in my fork of the Christmas ducks).

Paulo Cereda

16:14

@UlrikeFischer Ah cool. :)

@marmot: gist.github.com/cereda/9c10664f8cdca56502c7617b1a03da34

yo'

ok, my (para)medic training starts in an hour, I gotta go :-)

marmot

@PauloCereda @UlrikeFischer Thanks a lot!

Paulo Cereda

@yo' ooh

yo'

@PauloCereda I have to go through it every 4 years in order to be a scout camp medic. It's only like 10 hours or training and then exams, but it's fairly useful!

Paulo Cereda

@yo' Ah!

marmot

16:29

@PauloCereda Sadly, I cannot make it work in beamer because of some option clash.... really sad....

Paulo Cereda

@marmot oh no! @UlrikeFischer ^^ we need you!

Save the marmot!

marmot

@PauloCereda TEX.SE is a great site. I was able to fix the clash, and learned something ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@marmot yaaaaaaaaay

Ulrike Fischer

16:59

@marmot xcolor? It is a pain that there is no sensible interface to load the colors later. Imho there is no reason.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda simpler to blame @JosephWright surely?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle /sigh Probably

marmot

@UlrikeFischer Yes, but luckily I could fix it with the help of this site.

marczellm

@ChristianHupfer yes, "destination unreachable" or "request timed out"

David Carlisle

@JosephWright you could add a colo u r option:-)

Ulrike Fischer

17:08

@JosephWright more xcolor's fault. I suggested years ago that they should be a \xcolorsetup command to set most package options later. This would make it much easier to load the package.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Amongst other stuff, I'm working on colour support ...

Harald Hanche-Olsen

Oops. I naïvely said \DeclarePairedDelimiter{\angles}\langle\rangle, but it was silently overwritten during \begin{document}, presumably by unicode-math. Not very cool!

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Probably over the next six months or so I'll have (x)color, graphics and a basic form of pgf implemented in expl3

marmot

@UlrikeFischer @PauloCereda Thanks so much! It all works very smoothly!

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I know and this is good. It is simply a pain that with a "kernel" package like xcolor one either has to use package options or use some internal stuff.

Joseph Wright

17:18

@UlrikeFischer xcolor is not the team's ...

Paulo Cereda

5

@DavidCarlisle ^^

@DavidCarlisle savethesounds.info

Ulrike Fischer

17:35

@JosephWright I know. If it were I'm sure the situation would be better ;-).

Paulo Cereda

17:57

Hi mr. @Mooncrater, happy pizza day!

Mooncrater

18:16

Absolutely Sir. Paulo!

@PauloCereda

Paulo Cereda

@Mooncrater woo

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Are you starting to support also good packages?

David Carlisle

@egreg starting to regret doing that, yes.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle @egreg: you two behave. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda why?

Paulo Cereda

18:30

@DavidCarlisle no reason. :)

Alan Munn

View from our building today.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn ooh snow

@AlanMunn ^^ I hate MS sense of humour.

marmot

22:50

@UlrikeFischer @PauloCereda The students loved the animation. Thanks so much for sharing it with me. And it is soooo much better than the stuff they were declaring pizza. ;-)

2

yo'

23:09

@PauloCereda you should definitely come here one winter to see some snow.

Transcript for

$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends