TeX, LaTeX and Friends

CarLaTeX

06:10

@ChristianHupfer <3<3<3

@AlanMunn boo

David Carlisle

08:54

@JosephWright I see travis gets same tu test failure as I did, you made an explicit commit in the reverse direction for that glue set value something different in your setup?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, not sure

@DavidCarlisle I guess I'll need to check with the VM (after work)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright OK I was considering checking in an updated tlg but once I saw that would just revert your last change I thought I'd check first:-) Can leave it for now. meanwhile luatex list discussion going as usual.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Probably you are right: I'd rather have Travis-CI pass so we pick up 'real' issues. Give me a couple of minutes: checking on my work PC.

@DavidCarlisle Indeed: seems we probably can't use those features in cross-engine work (it's fine for Hans as he has only one behaviour)

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer "and then suddendlz y come out as z" only a German would write that:-)

@JosephWright I'm not sure. We can easily arrange the the only time the behaviour is different is if \csname\endcsname is \let to \relax that may be acceptable (and less likely to show up than other luatex difference such as differences in hyphenation) or it wouldn't be the first time if after initial pushback luatex gets fixed anyway...

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle It is pretty esoteric, I agree

David Carlisle

09:07

@JosephWright and while Hans is sort of right to claim that expansion isn't the main bottleneck, if you get 4 second speedup on ~4million on these tests it's going to be noticeable on even real size documents by the time Will has done an ifundefined check on a few thousand math command redefinitions.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle True

@DavidCarlisle I guess we need to decide on the policy here (both for 2e and expl3)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle You mean english people don't have more than one keyboard layout on their computer? ;-) (I even switched to english to type it!).

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer usually they don't but even if they do they only switch " and @ not y and z because everyone knows that z needs to be handy to reach at the bottom row. zzzz

Ulrike Fischer

09:31

@DavidCarlisle and I thought the english lazout put z in the middle of the kezboard as thez have so manz words which uses it ;-).

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer iz not lizzen to youzz miztaken apozzimazion to englizh

yo'

@DavidCarlisle German or Cyech, for that sake :-(

David Carlisle

@yo' same thing, they both look like Portuguese from here.

Ulrike Fischer

10:04

@DavidCarlisle isto é português, não há muitos z.

Christian Hupfer

@AlanMunn No, you missed the punch line actually ;-)

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer ezglot.com/words-containing.php?l=por&w=z

Ulrike Fischer

10:21

@DavidCarlisle So few, and it includes foreign words like zloty. I doubt that they can make whole sentences with z like we: Ziemlich zickige Zimtschnecken zanken zusammen zum zehnten Zahltag!

yo'

@UlrikeFischer that's what we can do with some letters, too! There's actually whole prose poetry story called Hoří where all words start with H. Btw, it borrows several German words that we know and use sometimes: Hilfe, hilfe! Haleká hysterický henlainovec Havránek. Hoří Hackenkreuz, himmell hergot.

Harald Hanche-Olsen

10:40

@UlrikeFischer Funny: Google translate's auto language detection routine thought it was Hebrew and asked: Did you mean: זימליך זכי׳ זימצכניכאן זנקן זוסמאן זום זהנטן זהלתג

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Could you send me your raw log for tu-tl2e7 with XeTeX? I get the same small difference in glue on my work PC as I did on my laptop: there must be something subtle going on!

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@yo' It's hard to beat the guy who wrote an entire novel in English without ever using the letter ‘e’.

Stefan Kottwitz

@HaraldHanche-Olsen That's easy. "novl".

Christian Hupfer

@HaraldHanche-Olsen For Czech this is the standard case, and omitting the other vowels as well ;-)

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@StefanKottwitz That's cheating, though. All the words were correctly spelled, vowels and all.

David Carlisle

10:45

@JosephWright I'll run again and dig it out, I thought we normalised all the values to 4dp anyway (or perhaps not)

Stefan Kottwitz

@HaraldHanche-Olsen :-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle We do for LuaTeX ...

Harald Hanche-Olsen

Gadsby (novel)

Gadsby is a 1939 novel by Ernest Vincent Wright written as a lipogram, which does not include words that contain the letter "e". The plot revolves around the dying fictional city of Branton Hills, which is revitalized as a result of the efforts of protagonist John Gadsby and a youth group he organizes. Though vanity-published and little-noticed in its time, the book is a favourite of fans of constrained writing and is a sought-after rarity among some book collectors. Later editions of the book have sometimes carried the alternative subtitle 50,000 Word Novel Without the Letter "E". In 1968, the...

David Carlisle

@JosephWright ah yes

Harald Hanche-Olsen

“Despite Wright's claim, published versions of the book do contain a handful of uses of the letter "e".” – oops

Joseph Wright

10:48

@DavidCarlisle Actually, there isn't a lot other than the .tlg when you read the log ... I do wonder where this difference comes from!

@DavidCarlisle Could it be a binary thing? I guess you are using a Linux-esque version, as is Travis, whilst I have a w32 build

David Carlisle

@JosephWright possibly but I can't run the test on its own texlua build.lua check tu-tl2e7 and texlua build.lua check -H config-TU.lua tu-tl2e7 both make formats then say

Running checks on
  tu-tl2e7
Error: failed to find .pdf, .tlg or .lve file for tu-tl2e7!

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle You need texlua build.lua check -cconfig-TU tu-tl2e7: the config file only deals with the differences ...

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I should read the doc one day:-)

  Check failed with difference files
  - ../build/test/tu-tl2e7.xetex.diff

I'll send the stuff by mail @JosephWright

nathdwek

Hello all,

Siunitx is making me crazy

why does 90° give 90° in pdf, but \ang{90} gives 90 in pdf?

I even tried using \sisetup{math-degree = °,text-degree = °} in order to be sure the same unicode character was used, but still notice the difference

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@nathdwek Doesn't happen to me. MWE?

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{siunitx}
\begin{document}
$\ang{90}$
\end{document}

↑ Produces the degree sign both with pdftex and luatex.

nathdwek

11:01

yes

I am also trying to find the guily package

Sigur

Hello friends. I'd like to ask a kind of off topic question, about some format style on typing. If someone has free time...

nathdwek

also xelatex btw

Aha

@HaraldHanche-Olsen mathspec is causing trouble

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{mathspec}
\usepackage{siunitx}

\begin{document}
\ang{90}
\end{document}

regardless of package order

David Carlisle

@nathdwek the important output from that document is (as usual) in the log not the pdf, the log says Missing character: There is no ° in font cmr10!

nathdwek

@DavidCarlisle do I have to specify lmodern if I'm using mathspec?

Maybe I'm just being daft

I'm using mathspec once because I wanted a specific mono font in maths. I think for the moment I will just drop it.

Harald Hanche-Olsen

\usepackage[math]{mathspec}

@nathdwek ↑ this seems to cure it

@DavidCarlisle I looked in the doc. Sorry about that.

@nathdwek but it might interfere with whatever else you wanted to do with the mathspec package.

Sigur

11:15

I have a Lemma with italic shape statement.

In the statement, there is an enumerated list.

David Carlisle

@HaraldHanche-Olsen who cares about the typeset output so long as the log is clean? :-)

4

nathdwek

@HaraldHanche-Olsen yeah I'va had other issues with mathspec so for the moment I am just going to drop it.

Sigur

and the first item in the list contains only math contents (eg. \item $H(X)=0$)

nathdwek

I just don't remember if by default (I don't need anything else than lmodern) I should still use fontspec or if I can just go without either of fonstpec and mathspec?

David Carlisle

@nathdwek if using xetex use fontspec (or why use xetex at all?) for math, either the default or mathspec or unicode-math are sort of reasonable but different options (unicode-math likely to be the default math way for xelatex and lualatex in the end)

Sigur

11:19

My question is: usually, what people do with punctuation? In math mode or out? I believe that it is part of the text, not the math, so should be outside $'s. But it is quite ugly to have and italic ; just after the (X)

So: \item $H(X)=0$; or \item $H(X)=0;$ ?

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@Sigur in an item like that, you shouldn't use punctuation at all

David Carlisle

@Sigur or \item $H(X)=0$\textup{;} if you want it to look like you want but remain logically pure markup

Sigur

@DavidCarlisle, so would you insert aout the math mode, right?

nathdwek

Seems to work as expected without them

Sigur

@HaraldHanche-Olsen, hum... even if other items start and end with text and so need some punctuation?

David Carlisle

11:23

@nathdwek without them" (what is "them" here)

@Sigur don't know, I'd just do whatever I felt like on the day:-)

nathdwek

either of mathspec or fontspec

Sorry I am a bit of a blackbox user, and coming from latex I have the habit of inputenc+fontenc so I was just wondering if similarly fontspec was basically needed to get xelatex going

But reading the package doc, I believe the answer is just no

Sigur

@DavidCarlisle, thanks for attention. I'll keep it like normal text and let the Lemma style format itself. Regards.

David Carlisle

@nathdwek without fontspec you will not be able to use any fonts other than the fonts you could use in standard tex so get almost no benefit from xetex. I was thinking that hyphenation would be wrong but since last year xelatex will default to unicode encoding so you will get correct hyphenation and opentype version of latin modern, so for a latin modern document you can skip fontspec as well yes

yo'

@HaraldHanche-Olsen that's wrong; you always use puctuation in correctly typeset text.

TeXnician

12:21

2

^^ It get's better (now even only two numbers).

Harald Hanche-Olsen

12:35

@yo' Sometimes, not always: en.oxforddictionaries.com/punctuation/bullet-points

@Sigur According to the above reference, complete sentences should have punctuation, yes. But it also says there are no firm rules. One example contains phrases (incomplete sentences) without punctuation.

(There is some bad HTML markup in those examples, though.)

Alan Munn

13:02

@ChristianHupfer No, I didn't miss the punch line.

@yo' There are loads of cases in linguistics where punctuation would be just wrong. :)

Ulrike Fischer

@ChristianHupfer I don't think so. After all $V_{\mathrm{Ananas}} \approx \mathit{pi} \cdot z \cdot z \cdot a$ . I wonder if this count as a proof that ananas and pizza belong together?

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@UlrikeFischer If we can have spherical cows, why not cylindrical pineapples?

Ulrike Fischer

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ^^^^^ isn't this the default form?

Harald Hanche-Olsen

13:17

@UlrikeFischer Ah. of course … so that is the image @AlanMunn should have used in chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/42143533#42143533

Alan Munn

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Fresh pineapple is often sold as a cylinder of rings too, but I couldn't find an appropriate image.

Ulrike Fischer

@HaraldHanche-Olsen He is linguist not mathematican, his ananas was cylindrical enough.

Sebastiano

@egreg Hi Prof. I hope you have read not only the email for Christmas and Happy New Year's greetings and the general notice to all users. A hug of esteem. Sebastiano. I thank you for the help also for the elimination of the ban in the Mathematics site. All right now I can even ask questions. Greetings.

egreg

@Sebastiano Very good news for starting a happy new year!

Alan Munn

13:33

@UlrikeFischer I'm sure the topologists wouldn't care either. :)

Ulrike Fischer

@AlanMunn Yes, but the topologists wouldn't calculate a volume.

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@UlrikeFischer @AlanMunn but they would care about the hole in the middle.

Alan Munn

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Doughnut pizza anyone?

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn instructables.com/id/Deep-Fried-Pizza-Donuts

@CarLaTeX DO NOT FOLLOW THAT LINK ^^

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle Oh god!

David Carlisle

13:37

@AlanMunn there are few foods that can't be improved by deep frying:-)

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle Is this your Scottish roots coming out?

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn 'tis you with the Scottish background

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle I know but I seem to have missed the deep frying gene.

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@DavidCarlisle telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/11355085/…

Paulo Cereda

Quack!

David Carlisle

13:43

@PauloCereda deep fried duck pizza

2

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn no nay never no more

@DavidCarlisle OH NO

CarLaTeX

13:55

@DavidCarlisle I do not follow it!

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@CarLaTeX also, do not follow the link in my post six entries ago

Alan Munn

14:11

@DavidCarlisle That's structurally ambiguous. Do you deep fry the duck and put it on the pizza or do you deep fry the whole duck pizza? I'm so confused.

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn ask @PauloCereda which he would prefer

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@AlanMunn English is confusing in that way. It could be solved by grouping: {deep fried duck} pizza or deep fried {duck pizza}.

Alan Munn

@HaraldHanche-Olsen You seem to have a thing for telling linguists how to do their jobs. ;)

CarLaTeX

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I do not follow it, too :)

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@AlanMunn Well, someone has to do it.

Alan Munn

14:16

@HaraldHanche-Olsen LOL

CarLaTeX

16:15

@samcarter tex.stackexchange.com/questions/409367/…

yo'

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Most of the ones mentioned there would get semicolons and a full stop

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@yo' Not sure what you mean by “would”. According to whom= In the three examples, only the middle list received any punctuation – and that is because each item is a complete sentence.

yo'

@HaraldHanche-Olsen well, as English has no strict authority and it is "habitual" at best (@AlanMunn surely knows how to express this properly). As sorry for that, I missed to mention "would ... from me"

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@yo' Ah well, the page I referenced also said that there are no strict rules, implying that opinions differ. So I admit to being a bit too opinionated at the start. (But then so were you, in your response.) What we can probably agree on is that each author should try to adopt a consistent style. At least within a single document.

@yo' And in any case, @AlanMunn should beware: I master linquistics just as well as @DavidCarlisle masters Portuguese, for sure.

yo'

@HaraldHanche-Olsen yeah. What I mention is basically what I apply when doing my work. I also have to somehow take into account that while the journal is strictly English, it is published in Czechia, so whenever there's a choice, I tent to go towards what the Czech typography would do.

Harald Hanche-Olsen

16:25

Speaking of which, here he is. Hello, @AlanMunn.

yo'

I do science and I prefer to have everything as complete sentences, i.e., such that if you remove any formatting other than section titles, the text is consistent.

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@yo' That seems like a good strategy in general.

yo'

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I know only one case where this is very difficult to apply, and that is with commutative diagrams.

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@yo' Well, I consider a commutative diagram akin to a picture, and they don't typically fit into some regular sentence structure either.

yo'

@HaraldHanche-Olsen not quite true, they usually play the role of a displayed equation:

Alan Munn

16:31

@HaraldHanche-Olsen These sorts of concerns thankfully aren't in the domain of linguistics at all. So I get to have opinions unencumbered by scientific reality. :)

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@AlanMunn Excellent! Fire at will! Opinions unencumbered by fact are so much more fun.

yo'

@AlanMunn btw, I have an etymological question (out of curiosity):

Alan Munn

@yo' Shoot

yo'

please, do you know what is the origin of Bohemia (part of Czechia), Bohemian (as in Bohemian rhapsody), la bohème (a she-Gipsy, moreorless)?

I'm pretty much confused about the number of various meanings this word has

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@yo' Looking it up in a dictionary, one possible theory is that Gypsies were erroneously believed to come from Bohemia/Böhmen, and so were called Bohemians.

@yo' And from there, the common practice of applying the term to artists who live an unconventional life.

Alan Munn

16:40

@yo' The OED has no etymology for Bohemia itself other than the name of the region. It first appears as beem or boeme in the mid 15thc. The association with gypsies appears to be borrowed from French though, apparently because people thought gypsies came from Bohemia. This then gets extended to more metaphorical 'gypsy' in the sense of outside the norms of society. But the etymology is quite weak by OED standards.

yo'

@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh so it's really Bójové (an old tribe living in Central Europe) -> Bohemia (land) -> Bohemian (Gipsy) -> bohemian (free lifestyle), wow!

@AlanMunn interesting to come from a country which has been known as "the country of Gipsies" for ages :D

Alan Munn

@yo' That sounds right then, given the Bójové name which the OED doesn't mention.

@yo' Despite the fact that the gypsies come from much further east... (originally).

yo'

@AlanMunn sure.

Boii

The Boii (Latin plural, singular Boius; Ancient Greek: Βόιοι) were a Gallic tribe of the later Iron Age, attested at various times in Cisalpine Gaul (northern Italy), Pannonia (Hungary and its western neighbours), parts of Bavaria, in and around Bohemia (after whom the region is named in most languages; comprising the bulk of the Czech Republic), and Gallia Narbonensis. In addition the archaeological evidence indicates that in the 2nd century BC Celts expanded from Bohemia through the Kłodzko Valley into Silesia, now part of Poland and the Czech Republic. They first appear in history in connection...

and

Bójové

Bojové byli mocným keltským kmenem, který se skládal z několika větví. Jedna z nich osídlila přibližně ve 4. století př. n. l. střední a severozápadní Čechy, které začaly být později nazývány římskými zeměpici historiky zemí Bojů, Bohemií – latinsky Boiohaemum. Další území, která odvozují svůj název od Bojů jsou Bavorsko (Baiowaria) a Lužice (Boica). == Bojové na českém území == Kultura Bojů se lišila od keltské skupiny usídlené v jižních Čechách. Pro ni byly typické mohylové pohřby, zatímco pro Boje kostrové pohřbívání. Nejvýznamnější bojská hradiště (podle latiny označována jako oppidum...

Alan Munn

@yo' There's a wonderful movie Latcho Drom which traces their routes through music. youtube.com/watch?v=J3zQl3d0HFE

yo'

@AlanMunn bookmarking this for later, I might be interesting!

Alan Munn

16:49

@yo' It's a gorgeous film.

yo'

@AlanMunn well, I saw the opera La bohème, which wasn't quite about Gipsy people, but I still saw some similarities to my experience from here :)

Alan Munn

@yo' Opera is about the only domain of music with which I have almost no familiarity. Opera and death metal.

yo'

@AlanMunn Operas are fine if they're not classical (classicist).

For instance this one is really funny, quite on the boundary of opera, ballet and drama

egreg

@yo' Fidelio is already too modernistic. Later opera is not worthy listening.

yo'

@egreg opera is a theathral form, not a musical form ;-)

Paulo Cereda

17:09

@AlanMunn Boemia, aqui me tens de regresso? 😁

Also, quack from the shaky bus

yo'

@PauloCereda qua-a-a-a-a-a-a-ck-ck-ck-ck-ck

Paulo Cereda

@yo' ooh ❤️🍕🐧

yo'

Gotta plug my laptop in the electricity and the plug is not at this table, so I'll probably simply be off. (Well, then I go to a Taizé prayer here in Prague in about 30 minutes.)

So see you later everyone, and thanks!

Alan Munn