TeX, LaTeX and Friends

Joseph Wright

4:29 PM

Quiet here today!

CarLaTeX

@JosephWright I'm working :'( no time to spend writing nonsense in chat...

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright I heard a few videos and saw that I'm famous:

Joseph Wright

@CarLaTeX I've been on a course (day one of four): we finish early-ish so now I have to do all the work I didn't manage in the day ...

@UlrikeFischer Yup

@UlrikeFischer Relates to yesterday's discussions ;)

@UlrikeFischer I'll use that example it the TUGboat I want to write ;)

CarLaTeX

@JosephWright I'm fighting with a Word document!

Joseph Wright

@CarLaTeX I have a load to do in that 'real work' I mentioned

An hour or two off, then have to finish reading a thesis!

David Carlisle

4:57 PM

@UlrikeFischer did you not already know that? :-)

@JosephWright try to get the {} to appear in tugboat though:-)

Vogel612

5:26 PM

Hi there. I've found a weird Math symbol used in an old-ish paper about statistics and couldn't find out how I would typeset it.

Dai Bowen

@Vogel612 detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html

Vogel612

we already tried that :)

some ideas were mathfrac or mathcal E, but neither matches

It's used as some kind of Sum-Like-Symbol, but is not an alternative typeset of \Sigma

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle ;-). Did you saw that jfbu is working on expandable utf8: tex.stackexchange.com/a/399287/2388 (I hadn't the time to check. Fighted with a csv table, and now have to go).

Dai Bowen

\usepackage{ mathrsfs }
\mathscr{E}

Gregory

Time for my annual "I can't remember how to update Tex" :-(. I downloaded and installed MacTeX 2017 and set my default TeXLive version to TeXLive-2017. But when I start the TeX Live Utility (version 1.30), it says "Your TeX Live version is 2016, but your default repository URL appears to be for TeX Live 2017. You need to manually upgrade to a newer version of TeX Live, as there will be no further updates for your version."

Mac OS 10.11.6 "El Capitan", in case it matters.

Vogel612

5:32 PM

@DaiBowen not a match :/

Gregory

Aha. tex.stackexchange.com/questions/387500/…

Dai Bowen

@Vogel612 I imagine a perfect match will require an identical font, the first in tex.stackexchange.com/a/186812/106162 is also not too far.

egreg

@Vogel612 It's just a fancy E; don't attribute to the graphic shape of a symbol any specific value.

Vogel612

\mathfrak{S} is a fancy G :)

I won't don't worry. I'm just regularly stumbling over it, because I can't read it to myself in my head

egreg

@Vogel612 No, \mathfrak{S} is a fancy S; similar to \mathfrak{G}.

@Vogel612 Maybe rather than “fancy” it should be “weird”. ;-)

yo'

5:56 PM

@Vogel612 think of it as a fancy lowercase sigma :-)

barbara beeton

6:24 PM

@DavidCarlisle -- oh, goody! two tugboat prospects!

Joseph Wright

@barbarabeeton I'll get on and write something this month ...

@barbarabeeton Frank should have one for you (ssh, it's a secret!)

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright A SECRET? OOH WE DUCKS ARE VERY GOOD AT KEEPING SECRETS

🇬🇧

Quack!

Shaky bus strikes again.

barbara beeton

@JosephWright -- does frank know about it?

StrongBad

@Gregory I have no idea how those two questions are duplicates of each other. I think tex.stackexchange.com/questions/387500/… should be reopened.

Paulo Cereda

@barbarabeeton ooh a conundrum

barbara beeton

6:34 PM

@JosephWright -- i see you've shared the (still a draft) updated short math guide. were there any suggestions made at the meeting? i've received a few from elsewhere ... some of which i've already adopted.

Paulo Cereda

♠️♥️♦️♣️

🐧

@JosephWright why are you and David so tall?

I won't appear in any photos next year. :)

CarLaTeX

@PauloCereda Lo sai che i papaveri son alti, alti, alti e tu sei piccolina e tu sei piccolina, sei nata paperina che cosa ci vuoi far... g.co/kgs/vbboQV

Paulo Cereda

@CarLaTeX ooh

CarLaTeX

6:50 PM

@PauloCereda Older than Il ballo del qua qua

David Carlisle

8:08 PM

@PauloCereda because of all the excellent British food, we don't just survive on flour and water like some other nations

! TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [parameter stack size=10000].
\UTFviii@three@octets #1#2#3->
                              \ifx \protect \relax \expandafter \UTFviii@def...
l.82 \typeout{T: héllöß → ∞}

Hmm @UlrikeFischer I need a bigger TeX for German ^^^ :-)

David Carlisle

8:22 PM

@UlrikeFischer oh thanks for the pointer I saw an earlier version but it's been extended since, quite some overlap with what I'm doing:-)

CarLaTeX

@DavidCarlisle Excellent British food, LOL!

David Carlisle

8:43 PM

@barbarabeeton no we were running rather short on time, so basically I just showed the first page on screen and said if anyone wanted to review it in the next few days to ask me for a pdf but no one did so far

barbara beeton

@CarLaTeX -- actually, i've enjoyed some quite tasty food in england ... once at an indian vegetarian restaurant in london (but i don't know whether it's there any more). england is also a good place to get cider (the alcoholic variety).

@DavidCarlisle -- well, joseph has sent off one copy; he cc'ed me on the transmittal. do read it when you get some time, please.

StrongBad

@DavidCarlisle no Brits need a little yeast and hops in addition to the water

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton ah yes I used Joseph's laptop for the display so he had a copy (if he hadn't got one already:-)

But the actual question is: why LaTeX 3 has such a complicated syntax? — CarLaTeX 14 hours ago

@CarLaTeX ^^ it's like hawaiian pizza, you just need to get more used to it.

But whatever the good and bad parts of l3 I don't think you could say \cs_set_eq:NN has a more complicated syntax than \let (which is the same thing) the L3 version tells you that it is a control sequence assignment (cs...) and takes two tokens (:NN) whereas the syntax for \let is ... strange \let\a\b or \let\a=b or \let\a = \b or ...

StrongBad

9:11 PM

Anyone know if AMS style allows a reference in the abstract and if so how to format it?

David Carlisle

@StrongBad @barbarabeeton may have seen an AMS publication or two:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh fish and chips

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda on a pizza base

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh

StrongBad

@DavidCarlisle oh I found it, it is on page 28 of the manual.

CarLaTeX

9:30 PM

@barbarabeeton An Indian restaurant doesn't seem a good example of British food to me :):):)

David Carlisle

@CarLaTeX you clearly haven't seen the typical english retaurant:-)

barbara beeton

@StrongBad -- a reference is allowed in the abstract of an article in an ams journal, but it has to be complete -- no \ref{label}. the reason for this is that abstracts (along with the full bibliographic information for the article and all references) are passed on to indexing organizations and aggregators, who use the material for counting citations and things like that. an incomplete reference would be incomprehensible.

David Carlisle

@CarLaTeX Queen Victoria, empress of ...

CarLaTeX

@DavidCarlisle I don't know anything about l3 but I can easily understand the word \let, whereas \cs_set_eq:NN is not so clear. I think it's not in the spirit of having self-explaining commands

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle the waterfall!

StrongBad

9:36 PM

@barbarabeeton yup. My go to style of APA, which usually covers everything, and fallback of MLA, do not tell me what gets bolded etc. I think i will just use the AMS style or maybe APS (which has a little info).

David Carlisle

@CarLaTeX yes but can you guess the syntax of \let (which is quite complicated) whereas the syntax for any L3 command ending :NN is simple it takes two tokens.

CarLaTeX

@DavidCarlisle Are there typical English restaurant??? :):):)

Paulo Cereda

@CarLaTeX Point is, Englishmen are too embarassed to complain about the food. :)

barbara beeton

@CarLaTeX -- well, pub fare is often tasty, if usually unassuming.

David Carlisle

@CarLaTeX when I lived in Manchester I walked along here most weeks:

Curry Mile

The Curry Mile is a nickname for the part of Wilmslow Road running through the centre of Rusholme in south Manchester, England. The name is earned from the large number of restaurants, take-aways and kebab houses specialising in the cuisines of South Asia and the Middle East, thought to be the largest concentration of South Asian restaurants outside the Indian subcontinent. Within a length of half a mile there are least seventy establishments of this kind. The Curry Mile is notable for its streets being busy into the early hours of the morning. The area is frequently visited by local students,...

CarLaTeX

9:44 PM

@DavidCarlisle So the choice is between knowing the command syntax versus what it does :):):)

@barbarabeeton @PauloCereda or they don't need good food if they have a good beer :)

barbara beeton

@CarLaTeX -- for those of us who don't like beer (not the same as "don't drink" -- the cider served in british pubs is quite good), food does matter. but then, i'm not british.

Paulo Cereda

@barbarabeeton I owe Frank a beer in TUG 2018. In retrospect, it was a bad idea to promise free beer to a German... :)

Jonas Stein

Hi, a friend told me he adds % as often as possible to help synctex.

Is it still up to date to make many linebreaks and add %?

perhaps even in captions after 76 char

I wanted to create a question for this, but I could not search, if this question already exsists on sx, because I could not search %

StrongBad

@JonasStein isn't there an emacs mode that will do that for you automatically after every punctuation mark (or something).

Jonas Stein

10:07 PM

@StrongBad very likely there is. But I do not use emacs anymore (switched back to vim for code) and texstudio for tex. Besides the editor support for an intelligent linewrapping with %. does this still make sense?

yo'

@JonasStein the percent makes no difference. Hard wrapping does, and IMHO it's a good habit to end every sentence with a linebreak.

David Carlisle

@CarLaTeX set_eq is Ok as a name for set equal (once you are used to it) (it must be fairly simple, even @egreg has got used to L3 names)

StrongBad

@JonasStein if it makes sense, emacs will do it for you, then again if it doesn't make sense, emacs will do it for you.

Jonas Stein

But a caption should not have a linebreak, correct?

David Carlisle

@JonasStein do you mean a newline in the source (that makes no difference) or a \\ in the source?

yo'

10:10 PM

@barbarabeeton and what about Czech cuisine including Czech cider in the most famous Czech brewery? :)

Jonas Stein

@StrongBad you have a high opinion of emacs. I lost my hope in emacs years ago, when it still was not able to handle linenumbers properly and came up with the most insecure packagemanager (m)elpa

I mean a newline in source like
\caption{this is%
a super clever%
caption}

yo'

@JonasStein linebreak in the source code (enter, not `\\\`) is the same as space unless the line contains a percent sign or in verbatim and alike)

David Carlisle

@JonasStein well that's the same a this isa super clevercaption with missing word spaces.

yo'

@JonasStein why the percent signs? Other than that, this is completely fine.

barbara beeton

@yo' -- oh, that was quite a nice meal! thoroughly enjoyed! (i don't think we had a single substandard meal the whole time we were in the czech republic. and there were some that were well above average.) thanks for the reminder.

Jonas Stein

10:13 PM

OK, but there was a reason, why I add it in configs like
\sisetup{locale=UK, %
multi-part-units=brackets, %
per-mode=fraction,%
retain-explicit-plus, %
separate-uncertainty = false}

or was this just stupid by me? I do not remember the reason...

David Carlisle

@JonasStein you don't need % there

yo'

@JonasStein completely useless there

Jonas Stein

ok

yo'

@barbarabeeton that's good to hear!

StrongBad

@DavidCarlisle isn't that @egreg job to point out where % is needed?

Jonas Stein

10:14 PM

then thank you all.

David Carlisle

@JonasStein except in verbatim and friends a newline is exactly the same as a space, and a commented out newline is the same as a commented out space, that's all there is to it.

Jonas Stein

do we have a good question on that where % is needed?

David Carlisle

@JonasStein a % is never needed, the only question is do you want a space at that point.

barbara beeton

@StrongBad -- this morning, werner beat egreg to an answer about spurious spaces. surprised me!

yo'

Anyway, writing from my bed, and it's time to say goodbye!

Jonas Stein

10:17 PM

@DavidCarlisle ok thank you

Paulo Cereda

@yo' Good night, Tom!

CarLaTeX

@DavidCarlisle I'll ask him to teach me :)

Harald Hanche-Olsen

@barbarabeeton Maybe @egreg was busy riding his motorcy-

cle.

Ulrike Fischer

10:38 PM

@DavidCarlisle Doesn't three@octects means that the arrow is at fault? But if it already breaks at the é you could blame the french ;-)

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer it could also be because I left in one \noexpand too many, but I'll blame you anyway.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle I thought that it overlaps. I would never had expected so elaborated answers. ;-)

@DavidCarlisle famous people are able to handle a bit blame.

@CarLaTeX If you add \int_set_eq, \seq_set_eq, \dim_set_eq, \prop_set_eq, \tl_set_eq to the lot then you start to like the syntax -- even if it looks at first sight as if ants where running around.

Stefan Kottwitz

11:36 PM

@yo' Be careful, beds are dangerous. Most people die there. Have nice dreams.

@barbarabeeton What is a spurious spa ce?

Transcript for

$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends