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7:45 AM
GuIT Meeting just started up!
3
 
7:59 AM
@egreg As long as you pay attention to the meeting, this is the day when we have the chance to get some check marks here! Attention, everyone! (Have fun at the meeting!)
 
@mickep Claudio Beccari is talking about oriental languages
 
@egreg yay!
 
@egreg Sounds interesting. I wish we had those kind of meetings in Sweden (well, it is probably up to me to organize instead of complaining)
 
@ChristianHupfer LOL
 
8:18 AM
@PauloCereda Another virtual presentation; this one about Yudit
 
@egreg Cool!
@egreg Gianluca?
ooh @FrancescoEndrici is here too!
 
@PauloCereda Yes
 
@egreg ooh
 
8:57 AM
@PauloCereda Also prof. van Duck is here (but I can't upload a photo)
 
@CarLaTeX YAY
@CarLaTeX I believe he will be a success. :)
 
9:30 AM
Claudio is presenting a work on the “Codex Sinaiticus”
 
@egreg yay
 
9:43 AM
Now Jean-Michel Hufflen will not talk about MlBibteX, but about typesetting music
 
@egreg Oooh
 
@egreg yay
 
9:59 AM
@PauloCereda Next speaker is not worth mentioning.
 
@egreg Condizionali in LaTeX -- Enrico Gregorio
 
@PauloCereda As I said. ;-)
@PauloCereda Maybe prof. van Duck will get mentioned
 
@egreg ooh :)
@egreg: is anyone recording?
 
@PauloCereda I don't think so
 
10:25 AM
@CarLaTeX I hope he is working on his tugboat column! (Or is it already finished?)
@egreg Are there slides?
 
Enrico is presenting with prof. Van Duck
 
@JosephWright Do you still have a miktex and could run some speed test? github.com/MiKTeX/miktex/issues/22
 
@FrancescoEndrici OOOOOOOH
 
11:10 AM
@UlrikeFischer The first column will be on the next issue!
 
@CarLaTeX Good!! Are there fotos from your meeting?
 
@CarLaTeX OH MY
DUCKS RULE
 
@UlrikeFischer ^^^ egreg's talk with prof. van Duck
 
11:35 AM
Lunch time for them. :)
 
11:57 AM
@CarLaTeX Thanks for sharing the pic!
 
12:44 PM
@mickep You're welcome! If you know Italian and Venetian dialect, the slide is very funny :):):)
 
@CarLaTeX Sono italiano di Veneto.
@CarLaTeX: are you back from lunch? :)
 
@PauloCereda "del Veneto", because it's a "regione". "Di Venezia" for cities. Yes, we're back from lunch :)
 
@CarLaTeX ooh this language is very complicated. :)
 
@PauloCereda You have to learn it for the next meeting :):):)
 
@CarLaTeX Nah. :D
 
1:01 PM
Now chess!
 
@egreg ooh
 
what elo
and where
I am having some troubles with hyphen patterns in \showhyphens{kundërshtarit}. Getting ku-n-dë-rshta-rit and expecting ku-n-dë-r-shta-rit
 
@egreg: what you had for lunch? :)
 
@egreg Oh. What is it about?
 
1:16 PM
war
 
@UlrikeFischer I am curious too!
@UlrikeFischer: Google Translate gives me a hint: Introduction to the composition of chess pieces
 
@PauloCereda Yes, I got this too. But I wonder what he means with "composition".
 
@UlrikeFischer we can investigate. :) I only know how to play... poorly.
I once was destroyed by something named Caro-Kann. :)
 
1:37 PM
@samcarter @CarLaTeX a quote from the german usenet group: "Das tikzduck-Paket ist ja wirklich großartig. Habe mir gleich die Werder-Bremen Ente gebastelt. :-)".
 
@UlrikeFischer no seriously, how do I update expl3-code.tex
 
@alfred ? Why do you want to update?
 
@UlrikeFischer A survey on the available tools, including xskak, of course
 
so it loads faster, thou said they fixed a problem
 
@egreg ;-) But xskak is not really about "pieces". That would be chessfss. Or does "testi scacchistici " means something else?
@alfred There has been one changed made in the binaries, which you will get with one of the next updates. But it is unclear if this is really the source of the delay. See github.com/MiKTeX/miktex/issues/22.
 
1:45 PM
@UlrikeFischer ooh :)
 
@PauloCereda you should get a copy of the chess game that came with sunos. You could beat it in 20 moves every time. Very satisfying!
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh :)
 
@alfred there hasn't been an update recently the file loading speed bug Ulrike reported was on miktex not expl3
@alfred they are your patterns (I assume) so just look which patterns put an even number between r and s none of them match in this case
 
I had the wrong impression it was already done
 
@alfred done but nothing to do with expl3 and binaries are not usually updated so often (I don't know about miktex but texlive just once a year normally)
@CarLaTeX oh it's Venetian? I thought something was wrong, that third option doesn't end in o
 
1:54 PM
@UlrikeFischer producing texts about chess, including diagrams
 
@egreg, @CarLaTeX: Coffee time!
 
there is a miktex-bin-2.9 pre-release from oct 20 I think, or it's saying the date there should have been one
should I give it a go or is it risky
 
@alfred I've never used miktex but in general pre-release software is for testing not for use in production.
 
@DavidCarlisle: any hints for my talk?
 
@PauloCereda don't run over lunchtime
 
2:02 PM
@DavidCarlisle LOL
 
it's my secondary system so I will try it
@DavidCarlisle I tried r1sh but nada
it's a bit of puzzle
there is no r2s somewhere else
 
@alfred any r2 or 2s ? (or any other even number)
 
@UlrikeFischer Yayyyy!!!!
 
plenty r2vowel
 
@alfred no I meant patterns ending r2 or starting 2s
 
2:07 PM
no thats the only r2, checking 2s
none at all
 
@DavidCarlisle Venetian names often end in "n" :)
 
tried with xetex?
 
there are even .kundër1 1ndër1 dër1
 
@PauloCereda not yet
 
command line ? ok, let me try
 
2:09 PM
@CarLaTeX oh no
@CarLaTeX: what time is it now?
 
@PauloCereda 4pm in Italy, I doubt they are back from lunch yet
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh I talk in one hour
 
! Undefined control sequence. l.11 \showhyphens
{kundërshtarit}
is \showhyphens{kundërshtarit} \end correct ?
 
@alfred yes but it's defined in latex not a tex primitive so you can't use it in initex unless you define it
 
in zz.tex I have
\catcode`\{=1
\catcode`\}=2
\catcode`\ë=11 \lccode`\ë=`\ë
\catcode`\ç=11 \lccode`\ç=`\ç
\catcode`\'=12 \lccode`\'=`\'
\paterns{..}
\showhyphens{kundërshtarit}
\end
 
2:21 PM
@alfred yes so \showhyphens isn't defined. dump a xelatex format with those hyphens then use \showhyhens in a normal run
 
@PauloCereda see Whatsapp
 
@DavidCarlisle I'm not following
try
in zz.tex I have
\catcode`\{=1
\catcode`\}=2
\catcode`\ë=11 \lccode`\ë=`\ë
\catcode`\ç=11 \lccode`\ç=`\ç
\catcode`\'=12 \lccode`\'=`\'
\paterns{..}
\showhyphens kundërshtarit
\end
with xelatex --ini ?
 
@alfred Without the \showhyphens
 
@PauloCereda whatsapp to me the email you use in skype
 
@alfred Then xelatex --fmt=zz (I think)
@alfred And there you can use \showhpyphens
 
2:28 PM
no errors, xelatex --fmt=zz stops restricted \write18 enabled. **
I can't find the format file `zz.tex.fmt'!
 
@alfred Those ** would be your prompt. Would've expected it to look for zz.fmt… don't think it will look for fmt files in the current directory without special magic … hang on …
 
I dont have a zz.fmt in my dir though
 
@alfred Hmm. I haven't tried this sort of stunt in ages. Oh wait, we forgot something important: Replace \end with \dump in zz.tex.
 
exp13-code.tex still taking ages after the pre-release update btw
 
@alfred they other day you showed you had figured out the combination of settings in language.ini to set up the hyphenation properly rather than just the quicl direct loading tests that work with luatex. I meant do that.
@HaraldHanche-Olsen that format wouldn't be very useful though, it would have no commands defined
@alfred define ages: hours minutes seconds or fractions of a second?
 
2:37 PM
it's a 10 inch laptop with a Atom cpu, so it's really ages
 
@alfred Sure, I could have told you. It isn't in the binaries yet. But what do you mean by "ages"? I see a pause, but I wouldn't call it "ages".
 
22secs
 
@alfred when I first used latex3 code it was of the order of an hour per document so again i ask what do you mean by "ages"
@alfred shrug what would you have done in the extra 10 seconds if it had taken 12 seconds?
 
@alfred A small document that loads only expl3? Or some difficult 300 pages document?
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I am being distracted from all sides here, brain disengaged somehow.
 
2:40 PM
it's 22secs just for expl3, the doc is one page
 
@alfred Show the document.
 
it's kant[1]
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen the zz setup was from me and it's just a syntax checker for patterns as @alfred is making some for albanian. It doesn't do anything useful if there isn't an error.
 
@UlrikeFischer it's what it did before, and why I asked about expl3, that cpu has no power
 
@alfred I have no idea what you did before and really don't want to hunt through the site to find it out.
 
2:45 PM
ok I can change pc and post the code, but it doesnt matter, I call fontspec and it stops for 22secs at expl3
 
@alfred on my machine this document
\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{expl3}
\usepackage{kantlipsum}

\begin{document}

\end{document}
takes this with xelatex
real 0m1.009s
user 0m0.812s
sys 0m0.187s
but I can speed that up to
 
\documentclass[14pt]{extarticle}
\usepackage[paperwidth=142mm, paperheight=210mm,top=25mm, bottom=20mm, left=17mm, right=22mm]{geometry}
\usepackage{fontspec}
\usepackage{kantlipsum}
\begin{document}
\kant[1]
\end{document}
 
real    0m0.614s
user    0m0.515s
sys     0m0.078s
by using xelatex \&myxelatex pp602 instead of xelatex pp602
where thw myxetex format is made by
 
it should be 28secs actually, i recounted
lualatex
 
 xetex --jobname myxelatex --ini \&xelatex  '\RequirePackage{expl3}\dump'
 
2:48 PM
My talk is approaching, so here's the video:
 
back to the hyphens
 
@alfred you may not need \ in front of & in windows
 
@DavidCarlisle so i should do xetex --ini zz.tex (with \dump at the end of zz) then xelatex --fmt=zz and at ** type \showhpyphens kundershtarit ?
 
@alfred no if you use a format made from zz.tex it will define no commands
@PauloCereda sorry I flicked over and saw vimpager so had to stop
 
@DavidCarlisle My UK-TUG video will be better. :) Did you enjoy the duck transitions? :)
 
2:54 PM
@PauloCereda well i probably missed some bits I speed watched in about a minute total:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh
 
@PauloCereda stopping, as I said at vimpager (which was in the middle somewhere:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle ˆˆ
 
@DavidCarlisle I also arranged patterns so the second part in a hyphenated word doesnt start with a vowel, it's starting to look like good hyphenation
I'm not replacing it in language.ini yet though
 
@PauloCereda Should I stay for the next talk?
 
3:05 PM
@egreg There will be ducks
 
whats your elo
 
I AM ON THE BIG SCREEN
 
@DavidCarlisle Ah, so that's the way to do it. Sorry, a crisis erupted in the midst of my trying to help out, resulting in some garbled advice.
 
@DavidCarlisle How do I get kpsewhich to show me the latex/lualatex search path?
@DavidCarlisle found it, progname not engine.
 
3:26 PM
@UlrikeFischer I see people taking your advice very literally.
 
@DavidCarlisle ??
 
@UlrikeFischer the answer posted to ptex question
 
@DavidCarlisle Now that's funny.
 
@DavidCarlisle ;-)
@DavidCarlisle But only the first part of my advice was followed ;-(.
@alfred @DavidCarlisle Well there is something wrong with lua(la)tex in miktex also for me. But not at the expl3 code but when the lua-file for luaotfload.sty are loaded. It takes really ages.
 
3:50 PM
There are times in life when one page comes between other pages. Whilst this can be distressing with proper counseling it is possible to go on. I recommend adding a complete minimal working example to your question so that we are better placed to offer advice. A MWE should be a minimal piece of compliable code that demonstrates your problem. You should also say clearly what you want to happen when a "new page comes in between" as this is quite normal when writing multipage documents and is not normally the cause of alarm. — Andrew Oct 15 at 12:22
Brilliant!
@UlrikeFischer :) Thanks for quoting this message! It's really nice to hear that people are using the package :)
 
4:05 PM
Is it possible to have two flows of text, one in the odd pages, the other, the corresponding translation, in the even pages? It's called parallel text in translation
 
@alfred with some difficulty. Ther are packages though that try to do that (parallel and paracol if I remember correctly)
 
I might go back to indesign for that one
@DavidCarlisle paracol let's you typeset in two columns, I might not have the width for that
it's quite nice though
 
4:35 PM
 
ku-n-dë-rshta-rit could also be hyphenated ku-n-dë-rsh-ta-rit but sh1t has no effect
 
@alfred impossible to guess without seeing the patterns:-)
 
there is a .sht8 but shouldnt interfere
it's not really a huge problem, but it's more about understanding why
as I said I'm ok with giving them to be added
 
I assume ë is a letter and not forcing the hyphenation to break at that point
 
vowel
 
4:40 PM
@alfred yes but you haven't picked up some classic tex definition (where accented letters break hyphenation)
 
what did you say I should read to understand better hyphenation patterns in latex
@DavidCarlisle I'm at 101 :)
ë is the oly 'accented' letter
 
@alfred texbook is the usual reference (I think Liang's thesis is also online) or tex-by-topic is the usual free alternative to the texbook
 
and ç
 
@alfred what does \show ë say?
 
\show ë ?
 
4:51 PM
@alfred yes what does that put in the log file
 
you have to help me run that
 
Oct 17 at 7:02, by David Carlisle
@HaraldHanche-Olsen we could put in a feature request for the new top bar design. I'm sure the stackexchange staff understand that displaying palindromes is an important, perhaps most important, feature of the top bar.
 
@alfred ? it's a tex command just stick it in your docuement
 
right, i just got it
> the letter ë.
l.16 \show ë
?
 
@alfred so tex thinks it's a letter, so that isn't what's wrong then.
 
4:56 PM
does \righthyphenmin=1 \lefthyphenmin=1 do anything ?
the minimum is still 2 letters
gje-rgji gjergj got solved somehow, this is what worries me, I am not following what does what exactly
 
@alfred I would expect that it allows breaks like a-bcdef doesn't it?
 
not in my case, the min is still two
 
@alfred but haven't you got patterns like .a8b ?
 
not that deep
 
@alfred deep?
you mean you have .a2b ? that would also stop hyphenantion
 
5:03 PM
I havent created patterns for . letter 2
like .a2x
on a I have only rules to stop hyphenating diphthongs like ae ai ao
and I'm already at 500, normally I should have just 300 if this was done more intelligently
I did at least one good thing, on every consonant-vowel syllable i had like ba, I did 1b2a1 so now I dont have second halfs that start with a vowel
 
@alfred the classic US hyphen patterns made for TeX have 4447 patterns and tex could handle that with the memory requirements of machines in 1980, so 500 isn't many...
 
texbook has 0h0y3p0h0 0h0e2n0 0h0e0n0a4 0h0e0n5a0t0 1n0a0 0n2a0t0 1t0i0o0 2i0o0 0o2n0 on hyphenation
italian had only 300 I think
maybe better rules, or better patterns
0 does nothing you said so it is hy3ph he2n hena4 hen5at 1na n2at 1tio 2io o2n
 
@alfred english patterns are not rule based at all, just take a lot of words and run patgen to compress them by finding matching patterns
 
a lot of words meaning hyphenated words obv
 
@alfred well yes that 0 are just added as he is explaining 0 is the default value if no digit appears.
@alfred yes using a hyphenation dictionary provided by a publisher usually.
 
5:13 PM
hena4 would stop hyphena-tion
 
@alfred yes
 
Just suprised, I would hyphenate there. the result he says is hy3phe2n5a4t2io2n, hy-phen-ation
 
@alfred no you'd want hyphen- not hyphena- every time
 
but there is co2n1cate1n2a1t2io2n con-cate-na-tion
 
5:29 PM
@alfred that's why the english patterns are not made from rules:-)
 
ku1ndë1r9shta1rit works ku-n-dë-r-shta-rit but not ku1ndë1r7shta1rit ku-n-dë-rshta-rit, it's like there is a r8sh somewhere
there are 8r8r8 .kr8 .fr8 .gr8 .pr8 .shfr8 .shpr8 .tr8 .vr8 8s8h8 only, maybe it's this last one
 
@alfred well yes 8s8h8 clearly stops a break before sh
 
replacing all those with 2
2s8h2 r3sh
works ku-n-dë-r-sh-ta-rit
even got gje-r-gji gjergj which is the proper way
hyphenmin=1 also started to works suddently
 
6:07 PM
I have officially no Bad Boxes
 
6:48 PM
how do you trace the page breaking algorithm used in a vsplit operation? \tracingpages isn't doing it for me
 
 
2 hours later…
8:33 PM
@AGoldMan humans use emacs not vim
@alfred yeh:-)
@PauloCereda how did it go?
 
9:23 PM
@UlrikeFischer where do I find languages.ini in texlive ?
actually you mentioned it for adding hyphenation to a language in Miktex, is there something equivalent in texlive ?
@UlrikeFischer is it rather language.dat ?
or language.dat.lua
 
@alfred Imho in texlive you should use language-local.dat. See tug.org/texlive/doc/tlmgr.html#generate-option-...-what. But I never had to add a local language to texlive so this is untested.
 
9:40 PM
so where do i find that ..
tried search but didnt give anything
@UlrikeFischer even if it's overwritten sometimes, which one would you chose, language.dat or language.dat.lua
I had it in miktex, but then I installed texlive and it overtook my editor
my money is on language.dat.lua
 
10:15 PM
well it didnt work
 
10:41 PM
@alfred see the top of language.dat it is just comments that tell you what to do:
% To enable or disable languages, there are two options:
% - if the language is provided by a TeX Live package, you can
% (un)install the corresponding package using tlmgr. Examples:
% tlmgr install hyphen-french
% tlmgr remove hyphen-english
% - in any case, you can use local configuration files:
% TEXMFLOCAL/tex/generic/config/language-local.dat
% TEXMFLOCAL/tex/generic/config/language-local.dat.lua
% TEXMFLOCAL/tex/generic/config/language-local.def
% See the tlmgr documentation (try `man tlmgr' or `texdoc tlmgr'),
@alfred
 
you suggest creating local files.
 
looks like you want language-local.dat then run tlmgr generate language.dat not that I've ever tried (see texdoc tlmgr, as it says)
 
the thing is I modified language.dat and language.dat.lua and then rebuild the format. compiler still doesnt recognize the language and the editions are still there
 
@alfred look at the log of the initex run check your hyphenation file was input
 
I checked during rebuild, didnt see it there
by initex run you mean my normal run ?
 
10:49 PM
@alfred no you said you rebuild the formats so you will have for example an xelatex.log when xelatex.fmt was rebuilt
 
I used the interface
 
@alfred yes so the log file will be /usr/local/texlive/2017/texmf-var/web2c/xetex/xelatex.log
 
C:\Users\user\.texlive2017\texmf-var\web2c is empty
 
@alfred won't be in .texlive I think, what does kpsewhich --engine xetex xelatex.fmt say?
 
but it is in C:\texlive\2017\texmf-var\web2c\xetex
I dont see my language in there
 
10:54 PM
@alfred no there should be log file there of the initex run that remade the xelatex format
 
yes xetex.log but no mention of the new language
 
@alfred so whatever you did you didn't do right:-) either you didn't configure language.dat correctly or you didn't rebuild the format (you can check the time of the file for example is it later than your edit)
 
I didnt change language.def
nope, wasnt that
created the local
% TEXMFLOCAL/tex/generic/config/language-local.dat
% TEXMFLOCAL/tex/generic/config/language-local.dat.lua
% TEXMFLOCAL/tex/generic/config/language-local.def
meanwhile
 

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