@yo' just blame @barbarabeeton.

@DavidCarlisle oh no!

@TorbjørnT. It is a weird bug. The MWE is rather more complex than I expected. It seems to be a combination of using @string in one .bib file and using it in another; using refsections in the document; and using a key from ids in a citation within a refsection. At least, I think so, I'm not confident that I've quite whittled it down. Every time I think I've got it, something jumps again. (Like trying to put the parrot in the cage when I was a kid at the eye hospital. Damn bird kept jumping out!)

@cfr sounds likely, if it is a bug... :-)

@Johannes_B: Wake up, Gundar the Template Destroyer Hunter: Here's some work for you: mathdept.iut.ac.ir/sites/mathdept.iut.ac.ir/files/…

@TorbjørnT. @yo' @all-other-interested-parties-if-any MWEB and error at

Would like some confirmation the problem is a bug and not an idiotic end user before I consider reporting it.

@PauloCereda You mentioned a while ago that the system kept bugging you to down-vote for the first time. Assuming that you have not yet acceded to its urgings, would you care to exercise that right in what is generally agreed to be a good cause? See the discussion at meta.tex.stackexchange.com/questions/6393/…. We would like the wikibook to be rated a little less highly than other, better, resources.

@PauloCereda Since the answer is community wiki, nobody will lose any reputation (if I understand the system correctly) or experience the down-vote in a particularly personal way.

@PauloCereda Here's the answer in question:

@cfr I get the same error at least.

@TorbjørnT. Good. I don't mean good you get an error. But I'm glad it is not just me ;).

Thanks for checking @TorbjørnT..

And for the help earlier.

@cfr Interestingly, it works with refsegment.

@TorbjørnT. I don't think that's surprising since refsegment is still basically a global bibliography. I think the problem here is that some required information for an entry gets missed in the data processed for the refsection. The fact that entry1 is cited as such outside the refsection shouldn't affect the processing of entry3 within it. But it seems to do so.

@cfr I see. Anyway, don't think I will be able to figure that one out, but perhaps if some of the biblatex/biber experts, like moewe, PLK or Audrey, sees the question, you'll get an answer.

Hey folks

Is there a way to automatically sort bibliographical references by order of apparition

Or by name

@TorbjørnT. Bug report: github.com/plk/biber/issues/93. If egreg doesn't immediately say it is my fault, I assume I at least won't look ridiculously idiotic reporting it. I hope.... ;)

@Slereah Yes.

@Slereah Yes also.

What would be that way

@Slereah that's exactly what bibtex (or biber) do. How are you adding bibliography now?

@JosephWright @anybody-else-knowledgeable Is there a link or something to give users who need to merge 2 accounts in order to be able to comment on or edit their original question?

@DavidCarlisle By hand

\begin{thebibliography}

that kind of thing

@cfr tex.stackexchange.com/help/merging-accounts I added a comment.

How can one include hard space ~ inside L3? Is \penalty10000\<space> or alike the standard way

Or am I missing something like \c_active_tilde_token?

@Jasper yo!

@ChristianHupfer If you would know what i was dreaming last night ... you would not have tried to wake me. Wait, you would've.

@TorbjørnT. that's it, thanks a lot!

Good maen

@Johannes_B: You dreamt of template hell? ;-)

@ChristianHupfer No. But i dreamt i was attending a DANTE meeting.

@ChristianHupfer Leaving out the name, and the constant changes by people without marking those and updating the meta-data properly ... I have seen much worse.

@Johannes_B I've got a script that makes me keep the versioning for my projects...

@yo' That is the sane thing to do.

@Johannes_B It doesn't force me to do so, but since I use git in terminal, it's pretty straightforward to use it:

@Johannes_B Ah, a nightmare :-P :-P

And the files contain things like this:

\ProvidesExplFile{ctuth-core.tex}%
	{2015/11/15}{0.1 t1511151022}%MY TIMESTAMP HERE {0.1}
	{"Core"\space part\space of\space the\space class\space ctuthesis}

@ChristianHupfer Did i tell you about falling down from some industrial plant, getting burnt in some weird waste fire thingy (what is the name? Thermal waste treatment?) along with some atomic material.

@yo' I would be satisfied if they add a year of change. :-)

@Johannes_B and I decided for the full timestamp, just to be sure :)

@Johannes_B Errr, not yet ...

OMG!!!

@cfr ooh I like this adventure. :)

@yo' it hurts my eyes! :)

@yo' No Comic Sans on it? ;-)

@Slereah then don't do that, use (classically) bibtex or the newer biblatex/biber. I'd start with bibtex it is less functional but more widely known and accepted by any journals that take latex. (The actual bib files storing your references can be used with either) texdoc bibtex should show you a basic introduction, or search this site for bibtex

@PauloCereda it's super-awesome!

@yo' :)

@ChristianHupfer I think that fortunately no :)

@yo' Let me make an educated guess: That shirt is on your personal Christmas wish list? ;-)

@ChristianHupfer I've got others on the list, not this one. I don't quite like the "average colour" ...

@yo' Damn, I just had to kill the online order for that shirt as a Christmas present :-P

@ChristianHupfer lol

@yo' That's a present for someone you're not able to bear :D

@ChristianHupfer I lost you now.

@yo' If you don't like someone particularly you can give this shirt as a present to him or her ;-) As a present punishment

@ChristianHupfer and spend €70 on them? Why? Voodoo is cheaper :)

@yo' Wearing embarassing clothes is stronger than any voodoo :-P

@ChristianHupfer the person wouldn't wear it; they would sell it on ebay.

@yo' ... and somebody will buy it and give it to you then ... my master plan comes together then :-P And I did not even have to pay for it :-P

@ChristianHupfer recursion: see recursion

@yo' :D :D

@Johannes: ^^ a solution for your template journey. :)

@PauloCereda Infinite recursion indeed.

@PauloCereda The margins have switched back and forth till @David came along.

@Johannes_B don't existing users mind about that sort of thing, or do they never update the class once they start the thesis?

@DavidCarlisle L-templates provides a zip. That is the template. In there are different files. In the past, file subfiure.sty was distributed. That zip is the box of chocolate i was mentioning some months ago.

@DavidCarlisle An automatic update process of a class file would be horrific for users of the old template. They were instructed to change the class file to insert their personal data.

@DavidCarlisle I bet you have read about the history of the template?

@clemens Wiki is a massive undertaking to fix. Letting it be is what we did so far and it didn't burn down the house. I think we can keep ignoring it. What I mean by reference is the resulting page of \author latex report or latex cover page title google queries.

It is almost impossible to give a full treatment because the exceptions are massively outnumbering the defaults. Hence a LaTeX knowledge is required. When you don't have that knowledge, you copy paste whatever you find online until something works.

That's why I think it is a lost cause to make the wiki useful. Instead a less Computer sciency distilled version of the TeXbook is much more convenient.

Because we know what to distill. Plus LaTeX3 frontend is a bit cryptic but really nice and more programming like for the Java, C, Python people. As I mention in my answer, at some point we have to leave history in the history.

Finally, if that question was not asked on Meta we would keep ignoring it. So I would consider this as a temporary sensitivity and awareness :)

@percusse Not quite right. I am not sure if the metaQ was a coincidence, but the Wiki and its need for improvement was already discussed a few days earlier.

@Johannes_B I remember it being discussed at least 10 times on the site. It will probably go away again

Who came up with that Wiki anyways?

@percusse An idiot probably. All LaTeX info is available for free, we have latex2e, source2e, lshort (in different lanuages) and ltabu. Along with several other material. That should be enough and that should be maintained. What we currently have is unreliable information by people that wanted to do good and this information spreads. and spreads. and spreads.

@Johannes_B You are too vulgar against people trying to do good online. That's quite some effort there. Same with the templates. It's not their fault to not knowing an ancient esoteric weirdo language.

You will never be able to remove those information online.

They will always put instituion name inside the author macro. Always put negative space to adjust the bottom header etc.

You are not doing good by attacking them at all. Just make a better template and they will be obsolete. It is quite simple.

TUG site still down. :(

@percusse I know they are trying to do good, but the result isn't quite reasonable. I know we cannot remoe the information, but we can help to improve.

@percusse I am ok with that, as long as it isn't provided by a template and advertised as good style.

@egreg Has been well flagged-up

@percusse I am not attacking them, but i know it might come accross as such. I don't want to make a template, yet alone because i don't know what a template is.

@DavidCarlisle Re alignment with split, are you suggesting there's a better way than:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amsmath}
\begin{document}
\begin{align}
\begin{split}
x ={} & a+b+c\\
   {} & +d+e+f \\
\end{split}\\
\begin{split}
y ={} & z+y+x\\
   {} & +w+v+u \\
\end{split}
\end{align}
\end{document}

@percusse In the long run, we need L3 to simplify everything.

@egreg it's been back in the mean time, it was announced in advance (see my comment on yo's question)

@WillRobertson didn't think about it, hang on...

@DavidCarlisle You mentioned {}& is useful in "rare" situations; wasn't sure if this qualified :)

(In the middle of marking—shoot me now)

@WillRobertson, @DavidCarlisle Feedback on the format-mode questions on the team list would be welcome ;-)

@WillRobertson Oh lucky you

@WillRobertson What are you marking?

@JosephWright Don't ask! Exams, more exams, 15% research "reports", honours theses, masters theses, … I see no light at the end of the tunnel :)

@WillRobertson Oh goodness

@JosephWright Worst semester ever :)

@WillRobertson We're currently setting our exams (exam board looks at them early next month to send out to external examiners for revision in the new year)

@WillRobertson Hi! Is it normal that something like \setmathfont[range="1D4B0]{XITS Math} changes all the script letters and not only the U? Can you look at it?

@WillRobertson Just for a change between marking exams. ;-)

@JosephWright I have a love-hate thing going with exams; I actually like writing them, but I never have enough time and they end up being quite stressful

@egreg I…don't think I can look right now :( My guess is that the range feature needs to be completely re-thought; too many edge cases. Here, specifying a script U is supposed to go and also change \mathscr{U}, and I can only guess that this is leaking. Strange though—I would have thought this would be covered by a test file. Obviously not!

@Johannes_B Then maybe you might take it a bit easier on the template authors and templates

@percusse What would you suggest?

@WillRobertson I think the markup should be more like this with the structure more closely showing two aligned equations each with a wrapped right hand side. there is a minor point that this layout is unreadable, but I blame @barbarabeeton for that, it's more important to mark the structure than worry about the visual appearance (says my xml inner self:-)

@Johannes_B Let them be? :)

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amsmath}
\begin{document}
\begin{align}
x &=\begin{aligned}[t]
a+b+c\\
\qquad +d+e+f \end{aligned}\\
y &=\begin{aligned}[t]
z+y+x\\
\qquad   +w+v+u\end{aligned}
\end{align}
\end{document}

@percusse But ... but ...

@Johannes_B Or send them bug reports. One at a time.

:-)

@percusse somebody posted his CV online, another person grabbed it and called it template (with the personal information changed). How can i make a bug-report to an example?

@DavidCarlisle Thanks for taking a look! Shame about the manual spacing, but I can't disagree on the markup argument. This is something that nath did really well, from memory.

@WillRobertson A test file to play with

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{unicode-math}
\setmathfont{TeX Gyre Pagella Math}
\setmathfont[version=test]{TeX Gyre Termes Math}
\setmathfont[version=test,range="1D4B0]{XITS Math}
\begin{document}
$\mathcal{A}\mathcal{U}$

\mathversion{test}
$\mathcal{A}\mathcal{U}$
\end{document}

@egreg abandon all the modern silliness and just set the (U)mathcode like old times:-)

@WillRobertson Don't bother with @DavidCarlisle and try commenting and uncommenting the range line.

@WillRobertson I can open a issue on GitHub, if you prefer.

@egreg That would be the best way for me to remember, sorry

@Johannes_B So? Then why are you even fixing it? :D

Again, let them be

@WillRobertson OK! Ciao!

xkcd.com/386

@percusse I started with the most prominent template, this will get an update in the next few days with the worst parts cut out or reimplemented. I know i can't change all.

@Johannes_B just read the above link every time you feel the need to fix a template.

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@egreg There are also problems with version and range interacting particularly poorly… but even without version the problem is still apparent here. Afraid I have to get back to marking, but I'll try take a look once I'm over the mountain a little bit more…

@Johannes_B I agree with @percusse that in general it's pointless trying to fix a wiki or templates in general. that's different from (as you have done with the thesis thing) getting write access to one particular file and fixing that, or if you spot something wrong in the wiki edit that page. that's how wikis work. But complaining about wikis or templates in general doesn't really help.

@DavidCarlisle Complaining is my way of raising attention.

@Johannes_B yes but attention doesn't help, that's what I mean.

@Johannes_B Imagine wipet and egreg trying to fix the same Wiki page.

That would be fun

@percusse That is the problem you address in your answer as well, there are many many many ways of getting the final binary, i.e. pixel or no pixel on the page.

@percusse Another thing that makes a wikibook nearly impossible: standard classes verus memoir vs KOMA vs. ams-classes.

@Johannes_B it ought to use standard classes except when explictly discussing koma or memoir features. that's the point of standard classes, they are standard

@DavidCarlisle Agreed. Then why is a whole page describing KOMA features without even mentioning KOMA? And most of the options were obsolet.

@percusse :-D

@Johannes_B I refer the honourable gentleman to the above referenced web page.

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@percusse We just got Ballmer'ed. :)

@percusse Animated GIFs. Ugh. Ballmer. Double ugh.

Actually, I don't know if it is actually Ballmer. I don't really know what he looks like.

But he looks obnoxious enough to be him.

@FaheemMitha It is.

@TorbjørnT. Ok

@FaheemMitha See point 1 at fortune.com/2014/05/31/steve-ballmer-crazy

@FaheemMitha A classic maybe cheer you up?

@TorbjørnT. Thanks for the link. Wow, that's a lot of people.

@percusse I don't get the reference.

You don't need to get anything.

Oh?

You have a natural gift for ruining a funny gif.

@DavidCarlisle That gets posted way too often. Even for xkcd.

@percusse Thank you.

@FaheemMitha of course, so no harm in posting it again, the damage is done:-)

@DavidCarlisle All of Stack Exchange is on the net, so by that logic, you should never correct anyone on SE.

@FaheemMitha I don't edit many answers.

@DavidCarlisle Oh

@FaheemMitha answering a question isn't comparable to worrying about an existing web page somewhere that has less than perfect information.

@DavidCarlisle True, it isn't.

Still waiting for RPM Fusion. I cannot watch my series. :)

@DavidCarlisle Is that like a palindrome?

@FaheemMitha that's the idea "is" rather than "like"

@DavidCarlisle Oh. I thought a palindrome was a word.

Oh, a number too.

And already out of date, alas.

@DavidCarlisle BTW, your blog is somewhat dormant.

@FaheemMitha I know:-)

@FaheemMitha there is this which is (slightly) less dormant plus.google.com/+DavidCarlisle

@DavidCarlisle Thanks. Not really a Google+ fan, though.

@DavidCarlisle You know all sorts of things. Is the Fujitsu line of scanners the best available? That seems to be the case.

@FaheemMitha no idea we have a cannon scanner/printer thing here at home, but I hardly ever scan or print :-0

@FaheemMitha convenient for photos as they go there on their own

@FaheemMitha What @DavidCarlisle said (we have a Canon multi-device thing)

@DavidCarlisle LuaTeX changes look exciting!

@DavidCarlisle Ok. Thanks for the info.

@JosephWright Ok. I have Brother multi-device thing. :-)

@JosephWright yes, not sure I have time today but what could go wrong if we download the trunk sources and type make ?

Linux support is a priority. For Canon it isn't, apparently.

@DavidCarlisle Lots of things, probably.

@DavidCarlisle Depends what libraries you need to build LuaTeX, I guess. You are better set up for that than me.

@DavidCarlisle tug.org/svn/texlive/trunk/Build/source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/… worth a read

@FaheemMitha thank you for your encouraging words

@DavidCarlisle No problem.

@DavidCarlisle TL is more-or-less up to date so you are likely right that the build will work

@JosephWright oh if they have already pushed to texlive sources it should be easier i already have a working build for that.

@DavidCarlisle Slightly misread: v0.95 will be in TL2016

This version is probably not compatible with the macro package that you use as some
engine specific initializations need to take place (\pdf commands) and some node types
have been changed. We now have separated pdf backend commands and the only left
primitive categories are: core, (tex), etex and luatex, so no more pdftex, omega and
umath (where the distinction became to fuzzy). Of course you can still prefix.

@DavidCarlisle ^^^

I'll have to look over all of the expl3 stuff yet again and fix (again) mappings for Umath :-(

@DavidCarlisle We really need to get pdftex.def sorted I suspect

@DavidCarlisle There's me trying to stick to LaTeX3 things and then Hans makes 2e work that I have to do (as it also relates to LaTeX3)

@TorbjørnT. Thanks.

@DavidCarlisle Has the error message changed in appearance?

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
\begin{document}
‐
\end{document}

@Johannes_B We made it more informative I think

! Package inputenc Error: Unicode char ‐ (U+2010)
(inputenc)                not set up for use with LaTeX.

See the inputenc package documentation for explanation.
Type  H <return>  for immediate help.
 ...

@JosephWright That is great, thumbs up.

@JosephWright Any chance of adding that one to utf8.def? I think @Ulrike asked a few weeks back, though i'm not sure if it was about this one. Apparently biber does some recoding.

@Johannes_B Ask @DavidCarlisle not me ;-)

@Johannes_B See above: I have lots of LuaTeX-related stuff to do

@JosephWright Good luck with that :-)

@Johannes_B It's not me who's going to need the luck: I know what I'm doing ;-)

@JosephWright :-D

@yo' -- the net connection to aarhus university (where the tug box is hosted) was undergoing maintenance yesterday. (yes, it surprised me too, and delayed completion of my tugboat column.) but now it's back up, and all appears to be well.

@barbarabeeton Hope you like the \romannumeral article :-)

@UlrikeFischer You are a MikTeX user. Do you have thoughts on that section? de.wikibooks.org/wiki/…

@egreg I wonder where this came from :-( golatex.de/viewtopic,p,78118.html#78118

@Johannes_B A compendium of most LaTeX sins!

@egreg The code is quite weird.

@Johannes_B probably.

@Johannes_B And, of course, the proof is not by contradiction. That's something I can't stand: saying “by contradiction” when you're using the contrapositive. Ludicrous.

@egreg I didn't even read the content.

@Johannes_B But the final code for the tombstone is a precious jewel:

\begin{minipage}{.45\linewidth}
\begin{flushright}
$\square$
\end{flushright}
\end{minipage}

@egreg :-)

@Johannes_B Also $\textit{r}\epsilon$ $\mathcal{P}$ is interesting.

@egreg I asked where the example is coming from, but i am a little bit scared to hear the answer.

@Johannes_B Reading an introductory manual and discovering $r\in\mathcal{P}$ is beyond the ability of the newbie.

@egreg I bet that this is not his code. Somebody else did this. An i wouldn't be surprised to see it is a university professor.

@Johannes_B yes I made it decode the utf8 to report the hex value

@Johannes_B Very possible. “I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Math professors writing LaTeX…”

@Johannes_B It discuss in length basic/net and 32bit/64bit version but completly miss the much more important decision if a multi user or single user installation is better. I actually never install miktex is the default location ... tex.stackexchange.com/questions/29616/…

@DavidCarlisle That is very very good. Thumbs up.

@UlrikeFischer Later, it is assumed that a TeX Live is installed. Under Windows, it's initially describing MiKTeX and Texmaker, mactex for osx along with texshop, texlive from the repositories for unix, including kile. And (was) mentioning lyx as an easy to handle editor for beginners.

@UlrikeFischer I would simplify that whole business by saying: Most are satisfied with standard tex live provided by tug, coming with texworks. Alternative for windows: Miktex, which also comes with texworks.

@Johannes_B I'm not sure that texworks is the best for starters. I would suggest texstudio as a first try (with the comment that they are other if one don't like it). Beside this: such texts always lag behind. On should better point to the documentation and only discuss the points where one things that the document is missing.

@UlrikeFischer texworks has no drown down menus and buttons. The user has to type in the first commands he uses. The introduction i witnessed on monday praised texmaker because of its autocompletion. Right with you on the pointers, though.

@Johannes_B With autocompletion the new user has a chance to get 95% of the commands correct at the first try - which means less compilation error and less frustration. I have a bad memory for certain words too -- .e.g I never can remember if it is \KOMAOptions or \KOMAoptions and I wished it would be \komasetup -- and so I understand the value of autocompletation.

@Johannes_B I mentioned \DeclareUnicodeCharacter{2010}{-} (HYPHEN) in a mail to David. But it seemed not to have made it. (But 00A0 is now declared).

@UlrikeFischer ah when @Johannes_B asked just now I thought it was done but grep seems to suggest not...

@UlrikeFischer The KOMA stuff i forget as well quite often, especially since there is a singular form as well.

@UlrikeFischer I think texworks is perfect for the very first steps, and the interaction when you really mistyped a command. To better understand how LaTeX works. And after the ah-effect, the user can choose an editor of his/her liking.

Hi, I have a quick question (and possibly stupid one too :p). I'm using the latex symbol \LaTex in a sentence.. But I can't get it to add a space after the symbol. Basically my sentence is "\LaTex is not the same as Office" and I get "LaTeXis not the same". How do I add the blank?

@myrtille \LaTeX{} is not ...

ah thanks.. I knew it had to be something simple :)

Yeah, I was googling but didn't think about the fact that it might be a 'general' command issue, not a specific \latex command issue

Perfect :)

@barbarabeeton Thanks for the information!

hi all, this issue is really strange, I can't replicate it on Fedora with official TL 15:

@egreg -- i have found what i think is an excellent intro collection, created by a math professor (math.bard.edu/bloch/tex.shtml ; actually, i didn't find it totally by myself, it's linked from a question here about "best resources"). i would appreciate if you'd take a look at it and state your opinion, and if you find anything that you think should be improved, let me know; i'm in contact with the creator, and intend to add a link to the ams tex web pages.

The german wikibook recommends package picins for wrapped figures: de.wikibooks.org/wiki/… I am not sure if i should delete that section with an sppropriate explanation, or add a warning to inform the reader. i.e. warn or hide from sight.

@michal.h21 Difference in the build with Mac OS X?

@JosephWright probably. but it is quite unfortunate if it!s impossible to use Lua binary modules on Mac. (not speaking about Windows, where it could be expected)

@barbarabeeton Among the introductory manuals those by Nicola Talbot are missing; the macros file is horrible: it conveys the idea that one must use unscrutable names for a huge amount of objects; worse, it hardwires \mathbb and \mathcal in several macros, making difficult to change the representation.

@barbarabeeton But the initial page is good.

@barbarabeeton The list of useful packages should be improved and updated. I'll look at the presentations.

@JosephWright Can you look at this one?

{{LaTeX/LaTeX|code=\ProvidesPackage<!---->}} has to have the same name of the file without the extension. It tells LaTeX the name of the package and will allow it to issue a sensible error message when you try to include a package twice.

@JosephWright progress, of sorts:

(/usr/local/texlive/2015/texmf-dist/tex/generic/config/pdftexconfig.tex
! Undefined control sequence.
l.4 \pdfoutput
            =1

@JosephWright vvvv

$ lualatex \\stop
This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.85.0
 restricted \write18 enabled.
LaTeX2e <2016/01/01>
Babel <3.9m> and hyphenation patterns for 79 languages loaded.
 215 words of node memory still in use:
   1 hlist, 1 vlist, 2 glue, 32 glue_spec, 1 write nodes
   avail lists: 2:12,3:1,6:2,9:1
No pages of output.
Transcript written on texput.log.

@ChristianHupfer sometimes, i feel like Ronny: youtube.com/watch?v=fVXpZ_1D4qA

@DavidCarlisle Did you read the mail from Akira ;)

@egreg OK

At there many people programming with lua + luatex/lualatex these days?

For example, tex.stackexchange.com/a/222502/3406

@percusse Now that i am having my Feierabendbier ... what the hack?

:-)

@JosephWright yes I was just happy that it compiled;-) I've edited my ini files (not quite as suggested) so have formats now, I suppose I should run the test suite.....

@FaheemMitha possibly. (lualatex has been in texlive for many years now.) How can we know?

@DavidCarlisle Well, you'll know if they come here and ask you questions. :-)

@Johannes_B "Steven A. Ballmer is chief executive officer of Microsoft Corporation, the world's leading manufacturer of software for personal and business computing."

@FaheemMitha there are a relatively large number of lualatex questions and answers here, but I suspect that over highlights the uses of extended tex engines, the "quiet majority" that we never hear about are using pdftex, probably from a distribution circa 2000. But hard to know how big that user base is...

I think they meant to write "the leading manufacturer of proprietary crap".

@FaheemMitha language.

@DavidCarlisle Distribution ca 2000? That's quite old. Would be the forgotten tetex, perhaps.

I wonder what Esser is doing these days.

@FaheemMitha people get tex when they get it and don't update. Even if they have a distribution new enough to have tlmgr not everyone is of the mindset to continuously update anything.

@FaheemMitha having a life:-)

@DavidCarlisle Bad Thomas Esser.

@DavidCarlisle Well, people usually have software more current than 2000.

That's 15 years old.

@FaheemMitha oh is it that long ago, seems like only yesterday we were celebrating end of the millennium:-)

@DavidCarlisle Time flies when you're having fun.

@JosephWright texlua build.lua check is in an infinite loop:

(Please type a command or say `\end')
*
(Please type a command or say `\end')
*
! Interruption.
<*>

?
(Please type a command or say `\end')
*

@DavidCarlisle Which test?

@JosephWright tlb-hfloat-01 (uses \pdfsavepos which I seem to have left undefined)

@DavidCarlisle We have a test using \pdfsavepos?

@JosephWright but you get no warning, I just looked at the test logs and saw the previous one was 15 minutes ago, so ran that one by hand...

@JosephWright apparently

@DavidCarlisle Well the full run hides things so any test that just hangs is an issue

@DavidCarlisle Who wrote that?

@JosephWright \AUTHOR{myo42} ?

palladium:testfiles joseph$ svn log tlb-hfloat-01.lvt
------------------------------------------------------------------------
r754 | carlisle | 2015-08-06 17:46:37 +0100 (Thu, 06 Aug 2015) | 1 line

trunk branch
------------------------------------------------------------------------
r617 | carlisle | 2015-03-22 10:07:44 +0000 (Sun, 22 Mar 2015) | 1 line

keep test file but document its unfixed status
------------------------------------------------------------------------
r614 | carlisle | 2015-03-21 21:35:36 +0000 (Sat, 21 Mar 2015) | 1 line

@DavidCarlisle ^^^

@JosephWright wasn't it from a public bug report (not sure why it doesnt have a tlbxxxx number)

@DavidCarlisle I don't know, you do LaTeX2e stuff: I'd just have something on GitHub ;-)

@JosephWright I could add \ifx\pdfsavepos\undefined\let\pdfsavepos\savepos to the test until we decide what the general policy about names in luatex should be...

@DavidCarlisle Sounds reasonable

@DavidCarlisle As I've said on the team list, I think the 2e position as a policy is not something I can comment on

@JosephWright done, restarted full run I'll check it in if we get to the end.

@JosephWright math in beamer question for you on the main site:-)

@DavidCarlisle Easy question

@JosephWright I could fiddle with mathcodes but wasn't sure if there was a built in fix

@JosephWright oh I tried that but thought it didn't work, did I mess up the test, will check..

@JosephWright I had a spare s :-) \documentclass[professionalfonts]{beamer} %

@JosephWright 136 failures (more than before) not looked at them all yet, lots of

+ ....\localpar
+ .....\localinterlinepenalty=0
+ .....\localbrokenpenalty=0
+ .....\localleftbox=null
+ .....\localrightbox=null

and + ....\discretionary50| presumably as each discretionary has its own penalty value now.

@DavidCarlisle Oh goody

@DavidCarlisle How many failures for the l3kernel tests?

@JosephWright I leave l3 to you:-) I could run it...

@DavidCarlisle OK

@DavidCarlisle I'll ask Akira if he's already got a version compiled for Windows

@JosephWright does it do luatex by default so I just need build.lua check?

@DavidCarlisle All engines so perhaps -eluatex to speed it up

@DavidCarlisle We have to decide what happens as they are going to hit v1 next year according to the README

  Check failed with difference files
  - ../build/test/d3dvipdfmx.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/d3dvips.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/d3pdfmode.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/d3xdvipdfmx.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3box001.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3box003.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3box004.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3coffins001.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3show002.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3show003.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/m3token004.luatex.diff

@JosephWright the above from running check at top level experimental/trunk

@DavidCarlisle OK, so some perhaps line wrapping or similar, some more things added to boxes, that's it?

$ cat  build/test/*diff | wc -l
9076

@JosephWright ^^ I could send you a zip?

@DavidCarlisle Cool

@DavidCarlisle OK, so one thing is the primitive renames: no color stack found. That one I know needs altering in expl3: hope to do it this week

@DavidCarlisle I can probably zap the '\local...' stuff

@JosephWright yes, probably I could too, but better if you do, most likely, more chance I break something in l3build:-) similarly the discretionary you could zap if it has value 50

@JosephWright I'm mostly offline tomorrow

@DavidCarlisle OK

@DavidCarlisle Need to read up on the new stuff first

@JosephWright yes I had a quick flick through the manual, but not in detail

@DavidCarlisle Currently working on the primitives for expl3

@JosephWright I think I've stopped for the day.

@DavidCarlisle I'll stop in a mo: just finishing the current list from the new LuaTeX manual

@JosephWright I could get a list from the luatex binary for you to compare....

@DavidCarlisle Would be handy

@DavidCarlisle I think I see what they've done but I'm not sure on the way to set it up (do we worry about releases between 0.80 and the one that ends up in TL2016 or do we just lump together)

@JosephWright by mail

@JosephWright lump together I suspect.

@JosephWright oh I sent callback list I guess you wanted primitive list... (it's late:-)

Some people know how to give a helping hand ...