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1:29 AM
A: BibLaTex cite style: prenote [number] postnote

cfrI do not know what I am doing ;). Caveat emptor... This code attempts to define a new citation command, \textualcite[<prenote>][<postnote>]{<key list>} which produces the target output. Since you didn't post any code, I have no idea if this will work with your actual bibliography style, docum...

Not the answer - ignore that. (Unless you can correct it.) But you might like the last bit ;).
Very impressive Tufte-style Jekyll theme: clayh53.github.io/tufte-jekyll/articles/15/…
4 hours later…
5:27 AM
bAnyone around who could help me book some European train tickets?
1 hour later…
6:53 AM
Well do everyone last night :-)
Where can I find the LaTeX2e implementation of the Computer Modern fonts? So that I can see where my font table is missing stuff....?
It goes wrong when I declare \mathrm to link to a T1 font, symbols suddenly render as ligatures. :-(
7:56 AM
@egreg Maybe you can invite him to join one of your classes tex.stackexchange.com/users/74294/farzad64
8:10 AM
@Will Which day are you getting to TUG2015?
8:41 AM
@DavidCarlisle I assume I'm okay to cannibalise luaregisternames as part of a LuaTeX support add-on package?
9:15 AM
@JosephWright you may notice I started watching that yesterday:-)
@JosephWright sure, as I say I'll delete it once it is not needed
@1010011010 what do you mean by 2e implementation of the fonts? the fonts are not related to 2e, you can get the full sources from the texlive tree, or a typeset book from addison-wesley as a companion to the texbook. The latex2e interface is via the fd files such as ot1cmr.fd in the base latex distribution
@DavidCarlisle Isn't DeclareMathAlfabet etc. part of NFSS?
@1010011010 yes but I wouldn't have guessed that you were referring to that from "implementation of a font"
@Johannes_B No, he/she seems to be in love with \parskip
@1010011010 texdoc source2e
@egreg Many are :-(
9:21 AM
@1010011010 yes that's expected: don't do that.
@DavidCarlisle How should the font be encoded then? :-)
9:41 AM
We have ComicNeue in TeX Live; go and find a nice example of keming in their home page: comicneue.com
9:56 AM
@1010011010 If you don't put a OT1 encoded font in fam 0 (\mathrm) then you have to redefine every command that is defined to use fam 0. For example \Gamma is defined to be character from slot 0 in fam0 and that isn't the case if you use a T1 font. So you have to redefine \Gamma (and a host of other commands)
Sounds archaic. I love it!
10:57 AM
@StefanKottwitz that's not what I'm trying on mychemistry.eu where I also have leadsheets, acro, embrac, enotez, … (all my non-chemistry packages). I don't think a chemistry subforum is needed: there are only five questions tagged chemistry in 2015, non in 2014…
@cfr ooh is that a cat waiting for a wagenbobl!? :)
Can somebody understand this?
Q: Two-column note

DocI have to write a thesis and I want to use Latex but I don't know how to do this thing: I want to write a one-column text in the top of the document, and I want to create a table with 2 column that contain all the notes refers the content of the top of the document. The notes written below must ...

@egreg no
11:33 AM
@JosephWright I'll be meeting up with David and Frank in Mainz some time Saturday arvo, and we'll travel together to Darmstadt some time on the Sunday… as far as I know, anyway!
11:54 AM
@clemens Apparently nobody else is reading my posts. Nobody pinged and said: The example is missing. latex-community.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=89455#p89455
12:20 PM
@Johannes_B I noticed and meant to tell you but forgot while answering other questions, sorry
@clemens No worries :-)
@Johannes_B Not really clear what you mean
For some reason, the references should be altered as well (could be a Freudscher Versprecher though). — Johannes_B 1 min ago
@egreg I want to change the words Figure and References into another language
@egreg He could have meant tables but wrote References, don't know.
@Johannes_B Now that's clear! I'll change it too. Thanks.
1:10 PM
@PauloCereda Indeed ;).
1:40 PM
@barbarabeeton N.B. github.com/wspr/unicode-math/issues/270 — I've corrected this on "my side"
2:15 PM
@WillRobertson -- hi, will. before i can make this change in the table (and i agree, the names are confusing), i have to figure out where the names came from. that'll take digging. will let you know when i figure it out.
@barbarabeeton No problem, happy to wait :) In the mean time, I'm sure if the old names are needed for compatibility someone will complain to me one day that I broke their document!
@DavidCarlisle unicode-math \underbar should now be fixed… I hope
@WillRobertson oh I see you pinged @barbara. I'm a bit worried about changing those names (I can't change the names in HTML or MathML)
@DavidCarlisle But surely they're typos :)
@WillRobertson See my comment
2:30 PM
@WillRobertson so is guillemot but can't change that either. The names are hardwired into the code of every HTML parser on the planet, the cost of changing them in real money terms would be scary and I'm not prepared to ask (although I edit that bit of the spec)
@DavidCarlisle It occurs to me that I (we?) REALLY need to put the HTML mappings into this package if only for documentation purposes. Q1: Do we really need to have 1-1 correspondence with names? There are no doubt exceptions already?
@DavidCarlisle Q2: is it better to stick with the non-sensible names, or to define sensible aliases?
@WillRobertson the file unicode.xml linked from w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/#source has (is the source of) the HTML/MathML names and also list all the data in barabara's ascii table and all the names (that were) used in unicode-math. There is not a one to one correspondence but that list unicode-math is used elsewhere in "texlike" syntax not least stix package, mathjax and one of Fred's extensions,
... so changing the "tex names" has much wider implications than just changing unicode-math.
@WillRobertson -- i'm working on an update to the stix "master list". actually, it will be a second list. it will contain the unicode, or pua id, the location in the stix fonts, the assigned name (after changes to the ones already agreed on for the plane 1 alphanumerics; those will also go in an update to the existing table), also mathml names. {not sure i've got them all; please make suggestions.) delays owing to difficulty reconstructing the pua, where codes were reused without consultation.
@DavidCarlisle -- ^^^^^
@DavidCarlisle -- and believe me, i am checking evreything you mention before making any changes. (it gives me headaches and nightmares, and delays my retirement. i won't retire until this is done, and retirement is long overdue.)
@WillRobertson It's easier for me if you keep the old names but make the rr names aliases as then I don't do anything, but then only unicode-math sees the good names and everything else broken, so it may be better to change to make the rr names the main names and I change the unicode-math field in unicode-math.xml, but that will affect other software so I don't like doing it too often. The HTML names don't change, whatever:-)
2:50 PM
@DavidCarlisle Hmm, I hadn't realised that people were using unicode-math-table.tex as a reference for anything; potentially bit of a worry since there are some changes/corrections in there from Barbara's original table. (Sorry I've been so out of the loop.) In addition, some of the name changes in there have happened because unicode-math isn't that smart about assigning macros and so on. The best example would be \alpha and so on.
@DavidCarlisle There are also some weird (poorly named) ones like \unicodecdots which is the plain symbol, in turn used for: \cs_set:Npn \cdots {\mathinner{\unicodecdots}}
@JosephWright Do you know how language localization files are used by biblatex? In my answer to this question it seems that when the spanish-apa.lbx sets a value for the smartand counter, it is impossible for that value to be changed by the user. (I tried preamble, \AtBeginDocument and \AtBeginBibliography and none worked.) But if I don't set the value inside spanish-apa.lbx I can then adjust the value in the preamble.
@WillRobertson well they weren't so much except that they were trying to use the tex mappings in unicode.xml but many of those were completely fanciful as Sebastian and I made them up in the absence of any tex-usable fonts. Fred was pushing for a more sane set so I added the unicode-math field at least as a set that corresponded to some sort of reality. stix package doesn't go via that route Khaled just took the names from the unicode-math package, but it uses the same names, with just one r
@DavidCarlisle For now, I'll keep the "rr" names in the main table and define the typos as aliases. But don't do anything rash with updating things on your end until we come up with a more strategic plan.
@WillRobertson agreed,
:22574567 good night:-)
Unfortunately I need to get to sleep! Catch you soon.
3:13 PM
@egreg I'm guessing he actually wants the two column style, but localized to footnotes only, or something.
4:03 PM
@JosephWright Just looked at uk.tug.org/training/thesis which also lists U Southhampton, which leads to the very class, that was the base for Thesis.cls from the template site that gave so many of us a headache so many times.
@Johannes_B There is no implication of endorsement: I've just tried to collect up what various places have
@Johannes_B I'd probably only look at @NicolaTalbot's guide, but people want things that 'just work'
@JosephWright Need more thinking on that matter.
Hi, Any suggestions for markup in which there are sections with discontinuous numbering? Using \section and a bunch of \addtocounter commands seems odd, but doing it by hand seems wrong too.
@WillRobertson, @DavidCarlisle -- i think i'd better put a hold on any renaming in my table until i talk to you guys. at least you'll both be in darmstadt.
@AlanMunn well is there any semantic markup that causes the discontinuity, or do you just want section 5 followed by section 12, just for fun?
4:10 PM
@DavidCarlisle Well it's categories of a grant budget specification, but I won't use all of the categories.
@AlanMunn It depends on whether there's some regularity.
@egreg Not much other than they will be in sequential order, but with gaps. Maybe it would be better to have an environment with a key value for the category which would then consult a list to make the right label
(seems like a lot of work...)
@AlanMunn A bit too generic, isn't it?
@AlanMunn depends, but one way (if your gaps are not that big) would be to have a \nosection command that takes the title of the category you don't want and increments the counter, but discards the title and doesn't typeset anything, that way your document source matches the published list of categories
@DavidCarlisle Yes, that's maybe a better way.
4:18 PM
@AlanMunn -- are you going to need \ref for any of the "visible" sections? if so, probably managing the counter by hand makes sense, unless david's \nosection suggestion is feasible.
@barbarabeeton I probably won't, but David's suggestion will work, since the gaps are small.
5:06 PM
Anyone got a pointer on how to use Type 1 fonts from TeX Live with xelatex and fontspec? Isn't polyglossia the logical choice on xelatex? Which means that fontspec is autoloaded can we cannot use a standard package that works with pdflatex.
@daleif Depending on the language, polyglossia isn't required with xelatex; babel can still be used.
(but that's not a direct answer to the question)
@AlanMunn that was what we found. Still like to know how to specify a TL type 1 font by name.
@daleif I don't think it's possible.
@AlanMunn so fontspec is only for OTF fonts? That sounds strange
@daleif Yes, OTF and TTF only.
5:15 PM
@daleif but are you wanting to load the actual type 1 font into tex (as done for OTF) or just the tfm as classically done, in which case there is only the filename
@DavidCarlisle A user wanted to use one of the Emerald fonts, but using the particular package + polyglossia led to the font disappearing. package + babel + fontenc works fine. I just wanted to know how one would go about loading that font using fontspec
@daleif Isn't there an OpenType version available?
@AlanMunn not as far as I can see on CTAN.
But what is the point of fontspec if one cannot use the fonts already included in TL? That seems odd to me.
@daleif You can call them the same way as other font. E.g. one of the emerald could be loaded with \usepackage{fontspec}\setmainfont{a picture alphabet} . But you will run into two problems: the font names are not unique and xetex/xdvipdfmx can mix them up. And their encoding is not unicode so the chars can be wrong. It is better to load the font in the standard way through the tfm. This works also with polyglossia, after all math fonts are loaded this way.
5:36 PM
@UlrikeFischer Ok, I think the error was to that the userr was missing \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
because then his MWE works with polyglossia
@daleif but beware all the hyphenation tables loaded into xetex in tl's default setup assume unicode not T1 encoding so hyphenation will be wrong if you use T1 (unless you are in a language where t1 and Unicode converge of course)
@DavidCarlisle so basically you are saying he should ditch polyglossia/fontspec
@daleif no ditch [T1]{fontenc} if using xetex (hope to make it work at some point but it certainly doesn't now)
@DavidCarlisle ok, then try this without T1
\Huge\ECFIntimacy Foo
Remember that emerald is not a part of TL.
@daleif For those of us without emerald currently set up, what happens?
@daleif (Currently firing up Win7/MiKTeX)
5:48 PM
@daleif I don't have emerald, but I notice memoir is still loading etex.sty :(
@daleif You can (at best locally) switch to T1-encoding to use the emerald font. But you should be careful with non-ascii input.
@DavidCarlisle have been loading etex for a while. Is that now also not needed?/having to test for?
@daleif Did you read latest LaTeX News?
@DavidCarlisle I don't think that it matters much with the emerald font. There are more for decoration and not for running text.
5:54 PM
@JosephWright is there no news for 2015?
ahh, so it is just the website that is not up to date
@daleif That one is for 2015
@UlrikeFischer yes was just looking, I hadn't heard, but site seems hard to navigate (and fonts seem to be shareware rather than free so I'm confused but at least some are available as OTF
@daleif RSS? Perhaps (has to be done by hand)
@daleif I thought you'd updated memoir before the 2015 release back in May? You could use \ifx\e@alloc\@undefined\Requirepackage{etex}\fi Not loading etex.sty in current format is a big win
@DavidCarlisle I don't think anyone mentioned etex in that update discussion.
Will put it on my TODO list
5:57 PM
@daleif sorry if I didn't, what did you update, I'm sure I asked you to update something:-)
@DavidCarlisle mostly to do with float bugs
and things that did not compile with the new kernel
Think most was related to stuff from fixltx2e
@daleif yes sorry in my mind I'd asked you not to load etex (memoir heads a list of files identified back in feb as loading etex....) (there are not that many in texlive) but I can't find any record of having done so. the 2015 kernel uses extended registers automatically if running on etex, and if you load etex then you re-instate that packages allocation scheme so over-write the kernel one
6:15 PM
@DavidCarlisle is there a reason you don't just make etex no do any thing if loaded on a system with a new kernel? There ought to be plenty of users files out there that loads etex
@daleif considered that, but then people using some of its more weird features find documents break with no way to fix. this way if you load etex, it works as it did before, but you don't get the new features.
@JosephWright Not wanting to bug, but did you see my previous message? chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/22574531#22574531
@daleif the vast majority just use it to get more count registers, and for that, just not loading the package works best
@DavidCarlisle ok, I've added it to the TODO list for the next memoir release
@daleif thanks
6:21 PM
signing of for now. Seeking somewhere a bit more cool.
or chilled
@daleif bye
@AlanMunn Have to take a look
@daleif Good plan: we had rain which achieves the same effect :-)
@JosephWright Ok, thanks.
7:02 PM
@JosephWright @Alan I added an answer to the spanish-apa/smartand question.
@UlrikeFischer Phew, one less job for me :-)
I was reading this " (Barbara Beeton states that her small collection has been worth far more in bragging rights than any equivalent cash in hand. She's also somewhat biased, being Knuth's official entomologist for the TeX system" in the article tug.org/whatis.html and I wondered if any one has one of Knuth bug checks, so one can just look at it online as screen shot? It will really be cool to look at one. I've heard of these before.
How would one go about finding a bug in the Tex program any way?
I also wonder if there is a check given for finding bugs in Tex4ht?
@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright thanks. I can see that that will work, but I still don't understand why you can't change the value in the preamble when it's set in spanish-apa.lbx but you can if it's not set there.
@Nasser frank posted a picture of a wall full
A: $327.68 Knuth reward check

Frank MittelbachAs a bit of history: Don told me at one point that he did chose Wells Fargo Bank for this because they had such nice checks at the time (with a carriage drawn by four horses - see picture) and that he therefore hoped most people would put the checks on the wall rather than cashing them: These ...

7:12 PM
@egreg wow! thanks, and congratulations for finding the bug.
@StefanKottwitz See e-mail: looks like the FAQ plan is on
@DavidCarlisle amazing. I am going now to try to find a bug in Tex also, just to get one of those checks. The problem is that I do not know how to find a bug in Tex. But will research it more.
@Nasser the cheques are no longer for real money, and probably best to assume that you won't find one. Not many people have.
@DavidCarlisle I am an expert in finding bugs. When I did software testing once, I found more bugs than anyone else. The developers hated me since I was finding bugs for them to fix all the time.
@Nasser 'Fix' is a bit of an issue too ...
7:19 PM
@Nasser I doubt it was Knuth that wrote the code.
@Nasser Have you got a copy of The TeXbook?
@DavidCarlisle First question: was it written in SAIL?
@JosephWright and tex-the-program
@DavidCarlisle That too, but I thought I'd start with some light reading
@JosephWright Yes, I have copy of the TexBook, and I spend lots of time before reading it when I first started learning Tex.
But I do not do Tex any more, I use Latex as it is much easier.
@Nasser that makes no sense, you are using tex either way
7:21 PM
@Nasser From a user POV, certainly (others may disagree), but for bug hunting you will need to use plain
@DavidCarlisle I know. But many of the TeX commands are too low level and not needed when using Latex.
@Nasser very few (hardly any, actually)
@Nasser I suspect @DavidCarlisle knows that :-)
@JosephWright I know that @DavidCarlisle know that ofcourse. When I started learning Latex I kept seeing his name on every package I use, and always wondering what a smart person this David must be.
@Nasser if you are looking for bugs in the tex engine then you possibly want to try with some programs written in TeX (such as latex) but mostly you want to read ever line of the tex source (which is in web/pascal) and find coding errors.
7:24 PM
@DavidCarlisle Written in something, certainly
@Nasser To list the tex primitives not used in latex, I can think of \holdinginserts but nothing else
@DavidCarlisle \mag?
@DavidCarlisle \outer (yes, I do know about bm but am thinking of the kernel)?
@JosephWright fail:-) \outer\def^^L{\par}
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I did know about that one but I wonder if it counted
@JosephWright ohh \mag yes so that's two.
@JosephWright It counts if you put ^^L in a \newcommand...
7:30 PM
@DavidCarlisle If you put ^^L in your document you are very odd
@JosephWright cut and paste from old email gateways could make that quite easy (which is presumably why it was made outer in first place) not ^^L but a literal form feed
@DavidCarlisle Yes, likely
@JosephWright although I think I just missed it when I made all the other 2e commands like \newif not outer
@DavidCarlisle Also likely
@DavidCarlisle Speaking of things related to changes over time, how would you view a serious push for a Git move for L3 at our team meeting?
@JosephWright less against it that I used to be, I seem to survive github these days. Still don't actually see any advantage over svn for this sort of thing but github is an advantage over the web svn view so yes I'd be for it overall.
7:38 PM
@DavidCarlisle I have some reasoning, it's more about allowing a wider range of contributors than anything else. Just want to make sure I'm not going to get shot to pieces if I raise it.
@egreg Thanks for the edit! The epsilon was driving me crazy!
@DavidCarlisle And removed the check that the defined conditional starts with if?
@GonzaloMedina It wasn't four years ago.
A: What is the correct pronunciation of TeX and LaTeX?

Gonzalo MedinaLet the creators of TeX and LaTeX answer: Donald Knuth wrote in the first chapter of his TeXbook: English words like ‘technology’ stem from a Greek root beginning with the letters τεχ...; and this same Greek word means art as well as technology. Hence the name TeX, which is an uppe...

@egreg that was me, as I recall it saved half a dozen tokens and at the time that we really needed to save few hundred to make things work on emtex
@DavidCarlisle I plan to circulate a 'list of things' some time this week
@DavidCarlisle We can blame Bill Gates, then.
7:40 PM
@egreg Ha! You remember my answers better than I!
@JosephWright good and bad aspects to that, if we raise expectations that people can make pull requests all over the source and we haven't the bandwidth to review them, might wish we had a more obviously closed system:-) But cross that bridge when we come to it...
@GonzaloMedina I was looking for duplicates
@egreg but we have to thank him for the operating system for the discerning.
@DavidCarlisle To discuss
@DavidCarlisle Like I say, I have reasoning here
@JosephWright speaking of github, any changes expected in ltluatex tonight?
7:45 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes
@DavidCarlisle Working on it now
@JosephWright OK
7:57 PM
@DavidCarlisle I was tempted to write a "Dedicated to David Carlisle" message in the firrst part of my answer: tex.stackexchange.com/a/253837/3954
@JosephWright -- the texbook was written using tex82. not in sail. i have a copy of the very original published tex manual, which was written in tex78, so yes, that was sail. and the tex78 input language was rather different in some respects from what we're used to now. (it lacked some features, one of which one of my examples was responsible for getting added. my copy of the manual contains, in don's handwriting, the first input instructions for \firstmark.)
@GonzaloMedina +1, you are learning! Now you should go over all your other tikz answers, showing how to do them in picture.
@barbarabeeton Yes, I know :-) I was make gentle fun
@barbarabeeton I've got a tex and metafont (in sail) book somewhere, although I never used the system (I'm not as old as @egreg of course)
@DavidCarlisle Plan to get at least the copy-ish of your code done today
8:01 PM
@DavidCarlisle My profile page reports 786 TikZ answers, so I guess that your proposal would take me a little more than 20 minutes :-)
@GonzaloMedina you'd better get started then. "No time like the present" my Mother always said...
@JosephWright not sure of the best github way of keeping in sync I'm "watching" but that only tells me of issue discussion I think, and I have a local clone but that only tells me anything if I manually do a pull.
@DavidCarlisle Wise woman, no doubt!
@AlanMunn spanish-apa.lbx is read at \begin{document} and will set the value to 0 and then load spanish.lbx.
@DavidCarlisle -- i've got one of those too, but it wasn't the first. the first was pocket-sized, with a yellow cover, and a big green "TeX" and a "texture" of little green "TeX"s printed on it. the actual absolute first was a stanford cs report; i'm not sure whether i have a copy of that or not.
@GonzaloMedina I should have paid more attention at the time:-)
8:04 PM
@DavidCarlisle Oh, don't ask me ask a proper GitHub user like @SeanAllred
@DavidCarlisle BTW, any thoughts on @UlrikeFischer's request for l3keys?
@JosephWright I thought I'd let you think about it (not really got as far as l3keys in my l3 re-initialisation:-)
@DavidCarlisle OK
@DavidCarlisle Just think keyval with weird syntax :)
@DavidCarlisle Didn't you write the base-layer keyval parser anyway (nowadays \keyval_parse:NNn)?
@JosephWright yes that's what I do, but it only gets so far, and while I can bluff answers on site with zero knowledge, best not to try that with @UlrikeFischer, I may get caught out.
@JosephWright yes (I think:-)
@DavidCarlisle I have to warn that I rewrote quite a bit of it (e-TeX, \tl_trim_spaces:n, dropping the d-type argument, dropping toks use, ...)
@DavidCarlisle I've given you push access to ltluatex :-)
8:20 PM
@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle Somebody call?
@JosephWright oh OK thanks does that work from my current clone, probably, well I'll not try for a bit, let you get the basic framework setup:-)
@SeanAllred I was asking Joseph what's the best way to keep notified of someone else's repro on github, I was watching it but that doesn't seem to show commits, and have cloned it but can I get email notifications
@DavidCarlisle Ahh
@DavidCarlisle I don't think so, unless it's your repository
@SeanAllred I could just schedule my local clone to update every day then it would be in sync, but I wouldn't be so it doesn't really work..
You can certainly set up a web-hook though
@DavidCarlisle If you're trying to know when a commit has been made on a remote, then you want to set up a cronjob with git fetch
(Not git pull)
@SeanAllred web hook ooh this: developer.github.com/webhooks
8:24 PM
@UlrikeFischer But shouldn't changing the value in the document body (say, before the \printbibliography command work? It doesn't though.
@DavidCarlisle Yep!
@DavidCarlisle Should do
@SeanAllred I'll go and read up the difference, I still basically work on the assumption that git is svn
@DavidCarlisle a tl;dr version: fetch will grab the commits without applying the patches to your working copy.
8:26 PM
@SeanAllred @JosephWright now that looks like what I was looking for, thanks
@DavidCarlisle sure thing :)
@DavidCarlisle By the look of things, a group e-mail as we do for the SVN would need some kind of list forwarder
@JosephWright latex-team ?
@JosephWright ! LaTeX Error: Text for \verb command ended by end of line. :-)
@AlanMunn see my edit in the question. You must reselect the language.
8:42 PM
@DavidCarlisle Well no as we have people on the L3 post-commit hook who are not on the team. It would be easy enough to set up a list for the job (or to ask Rainer to do it, more accurately). If the Git discussions are positive we can look at that.
@DavidCarlisle Yes, am doing some testing now
@JosephWright the lua code looks rather more lua-like now you've rearranged it
Hi! Today I found a very simple TeX code... I have never seen any TeX code. All I have seen in the past two years I found and worked was LaTeX... Look at this: Hi! \bye the most simple TeX code! :)))))))))
@DavidCarlisle Writing l3build was quite a good learning experience
@EnthusiasticStudent Yes
@EnthusiasticStudent There are a few people on this site who very much prefer Plain over LaTeX :) (fewer than there used to be… :'()
@SeanAllred they are all wrong though.
8:46 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent Also \end is easy. ;-)
@JosephWright @SeanAllred @egreg It was the first tex code I have ever seen! I really really want to learn plain TeX! You can not imagine how much desire and energy I feel right now to learn plain TeX!
@UlrikeFischer Honestly, that's a much nicer solution for an end user.
@DavidCarlisle Oh, you. :)
@DavidCarlisle -- hmmmmph
@EnthusiasticStudent … no kidding
8:48 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent it's good to learn plain, helps understand latex (or context) but it's a really bad idea to use plain to write documents.
@EnthusiasticStudent $ texdoc texbytopic
@EnthusiasticStudent Buy or borrow The TeXbook :-)
@SeanAllred could point to some useful plain tex examples such as xii.tex on ctan?
@DavidCarlisle sure... I have heard that writing long documents by plain TeX is so hard
@SeanAllred what are these?
@EnthusiasticStudent it's not hard, it's just wrong thing to do.
8:50 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent You can, but be warned: it can be addictive.
@JosephWright I will do it for sure. I will find a copy till the end of the week...
@EnthusiasticStudent texdoc is the help system in texlive and texbytopic is a good free book on tex and plain tex
@EnthusiasticStudent texdoc is a program (like pdflatex itself) that will bring up all manners of documentation
@EnthusiasticStudent If you don't have a TeX system handy, texdoc.net is also nice
@egreg I really love to progress and learn LaTeX, and TeX... I am already and adicted person...
@SeanAllred I have TeXlive 2015 on my system which has pdfTeX on it... is not it enough?
8:53 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent Oh that's perfectly fine – It's just I'm often on systems that don't have TeX on them :)
@DavidCarlisle Register number stuff done: see commit messages, particularly one about module version dates
@EnthusiasticStudent Better the TeXbook than TeX by Topic, for starting afresh.
@egreg Probably true, actually. TeX by Topic is more of a reference manual.
@DavidCarlisle thanks... wow it's free...
It's a fantastic resource if you already know what you're looking for.
8:54 PM
@DavidCarlisle Is it reasonable to use the kernel table here? I think it seems OK but ....
@egreg I will try to find a copy of texbook.
@egreg Agreed: TbT is the expert's reference manual
Wow, three rows of people here
@JosephWright Only two on my screen
But quite a crowd
can anyone point to a question/answer addressing \usepackage[adobe-utopia]{mathdesign} radical is badly rendered? It is really bothering me :)
@SeanAllred Yes, I know it's screen-size dependent :-)
8:57 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent -- whether or not writing documents in plain tex is hard, depends. if you want to see parallel support for plain tex vs. latex, look on ctan for tugboat. then look for tb0hyf.tex, which is the cumulative hyphenation exception list for u.s. english. (the pdf file is also there.) that started out as a plain tex document, and i've never seen any reason to change it to latex, since it's quite specialized, and is automatically reprocessed into a \hyphenation list by hyphenex.
@barbarabeeton Certainly for some tasks: the LaTeX team after all have some scripts written in plain
stefan and paula maintain TeXdoc... nice site
@barbarabeeton sure... I will take a look at it
@EnthusiasticStudent Indeed: I'm probably roping them in to running another one
@repurposer n/m it's the Texworks viewer
@JosephWright Oh?
9:00 PM
@JosephWright I think latex. yes I think so. I'm getting email of the commit messages now, is that because you gave me write access?
@DavidCarlisle No idea, but I doubt it
@DavidCarlisle That'd be correct
@DavidCarlisle If you have github set up to email you all notifications, if you're added to the repository, it will be 'yours'
@SeanAllred Working on the UK-TUG FAQ: details once I have something firm to say
@SeanAllred Ah
@JosephWright Fair enough :)
@EnthusiasticStudent -- what is really important though is to have an appropriate structure in mind before starting on a project, and creating a suitable user interface. whether that's plain tex or latex is less important than the fact that it's easy to use, reliable, and doesn't get in the way when you run into exceptions. (the only time it's really more important to use latex is when you're submitting to a publisher. then, always follow their instructions.)
9:03 PM
@barbarabeeton found pdf of tb0hyf.tex
@EnthusiasticStudent -- don't actually try to read it. it will put you to sleep.
@barbarabeeton :))) no... just the first page, actually
@barbarabeeton totally agreed with having kind of structure before starting a project...
@barbarabeeton I think you prefer TeX over LaTeX, am I right?
@barbarabeeton think carefully before replying!
@EnthusiasticStudent you mean "plain tex" not "TeX" there, both plain tex and latex use TeX in the same way.
@DavidCarlisle I have always thought that plain tex and TeX are the same...
@EnthusiasticStudent TeX needs at least some basic format to be usable. Plain is the basic format defined by Knuth and described in the TeXbook along with the underlying TeX language.
9:13 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent no plain tex and latex are both formats that are written in TeX.
@EnthusiasticStudent -- i've been accused of that. when i have something very simple, no font changes, just text (a letter of complaint, say), i usually use raw tex with the basics in plain tex. if i'm writing for tugboat, i mostly use ltugboat.cls because it's kept up to date. if i'm writing user documentation for ams authors, i usually start with amsart or amsbook. i try to choose what is best suited to what i'm trying to produce, with the fewest adjustments needed to get the result i want.
@EnthusiasticStudent note however that it is true that the command "tex" gives you plain tex, to get a tex interpreter without the plain format loaded you need "virtex" (or equivalent command line option these days)
@DavidCarlisle raw tex is the thing which was created at the very first days of tex? I mean, some macros develped to make TeX easier to be used? Then plain tex appeared and then LaTeX created?
@EnthusiasticStudent no
@DavidCarlisle tex -ini
9:20 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent sorry it's late and too long for a comment I'll find an answer on site
@JosephWright yes but that's initex is virtex not available anymore?
@DavidCarlisle You mean the \dump business?
A: Executables of formats, engines and executables of engines

David CarlisleIn the beginning.... there was tex and initex (and virtex) initex was for making formats (which basically means it has an extra defined command \dump which stops the job and saves a binary file of its internal state, which can be loaded. virtex was a vanilla tex with no preloaded format, just ...

@DavidCarlisle sure. I am so thankful to you and this community...
@JosephWright yes initex can take \patterns and \dump, virtex could not do that but had no format preloaded (but you could do virtex &latex to load one
@DavidCarlisle Can't find a reference to VirTeX from tex --help and doubt it's needed
9:25 PM
@JosephWright yes I checked before writing the above. I think originally you saved time and space by not having to unload one format before loading another, unlikely to be detectable now
@DavidCarlisle good answer...
@JosephWright ! LuaTeX error [\directlua]:1: attempt to index global 'latex' (a nil value)
Is there any reference on when all these plain tex, latex, contex, etc appeared?
@EnthusiasticStudent yes there's a timeline somewhere but tex82 appeared in 1982 (there was an earlier program called tex but not really the same, more a prototype) latex2.09 was from around 1985 latex2e from 1993 context from early 1990s
@DavidCarlisle With latest version, following test works for me



\directlua{registernumber = latex.registernumber}
\directlua{print("\string\nctbl" .. " is register:  "
.. registernumber("ctbl") )}
\directlua{print("\string\nlattr" .. " is register:"
.. registernumber("lattr") )}


local n0=tex.getbox(0)
@DavidCarlisle As you might imagine, I'm working on this as we speak
@DavidCarlisle Wasn't there a discussion about the first dates for LaTeX where someone pointed to a TUGBoat saying a version was available early 1980s?
9:33 PM
@JosephWright yes probably 2.09 is 1985 as far as I recall but there were versions before that, I think I saw 2.08 once:-)
There is a reference on this site about history of LaTeX:
Historic LaTeX
@EnthusiasticStudent that's our site:-) (@JosephWright and I are team members:-)
@DavidCarlisle I deny writing almost all of the website
@DavidCarlisle I am sorry... I did not know :(
9:39 PM
@EnthusiasticStudent Joseph mainly works on latex3 code, but I've been in the team since 1992 or so and was one of the people who wrote latex2e:-)
good answers here for beginners like me:
Q: What is the difference between TeX and LaTeX?

Łukasz LewI know LaTeX and I've heard that LaTeX is a set of macros in TeX. But what does it exactly mean?

@EnthusiasticStudent ^^ not sure why I pinged the above to Joseph not you:-)
@DavidCarlisle Fixed
@DavidCarlisle nice to hear it... I want to be one of the people who will write latex8e or latex9e in the future :)) (just joking...)
@EnthusiasticStudent You aim to a long life! Development of LaTeX3 was announced in 1993. ;-)
9:53 PM
@egreg you can't rush a fine wine
10:08 PM
good day/night... thank you all for your kind help :-)
@clemens @ChristianHupfer Das war ne Wolke. freiepresse.de/LOKALES/MITTELSACHSEN/FREIBERG/…
11:14 PM
tex.stackexchange.com/posts/213750/revisions ?! What was wrong with it before? (I mean, there is lots wrong with the question, I think. But the wrong things aren't changed by the edit?) Or am I missing something?

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