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5:00 PM
@ChristianHupfer Really?! How do you like the movie? I want to watch that movie so badly!
 
@PauloCereda: It's a mixture of real stuff and fiction of course... entertainment..., but good actors of course. My fiancée and I were at the cinema, with a lot of students of CS, I suppose ... no teenagers :D Just nerds :D
 
@Johannes_B Yes, I can see that. As I've indicated above, the 'standard' position I've taken with the case changing code I'm messing about with is simply to use the current Unicode data as-is, and that says ß maps to SS when upper casing.
 
@ChristianHupfer I still have a printed copy of Turing's original paper. One of the finest jewels of my collection. :)
@ChristianHupfer: Apparently they inserted a girl for an attempt of a romantic relationship.
 
@JosephWright Unicode sucks :-(
 
@PauloCereda Not sure that quite sounds right!
@Johannes_B You've obviously been reading the docs as I have :-)
 
5:03 PM
@PauloCereda Turing was gay.
 
@JosephWright I don't know where to find them. Can you link somewhere?
 
Or did I misunderstand something?
 
@FaheemMitha: I think, anybody in CS/Maths knows that ;-)
 
@ChristianHupfer So, romantic relationship with a girl?
 
@JosephWright That's exactly the problem IMHO (unless you were referring to my comment being rude; if so, I apologize :)
 
5:04 PM
@FaheemMitha: Fiction, as I said ;-)
 
@FaheemMitha I haven't seen the movie yet, but the trailers imply something along these lines.
 
Apparently very fictional. But the trailers may be misleading.
 
@PauloCereda Someone I know is an extra :-)
 
@JosephWright OMG Really?!
That's awesome!
 
5:06 PM
@JosephWright Quite some reading. Thanks.
 
@PauloCereda Yes, in the garden party scene. He plays a PhD student although he's really a postdoc
 
@ChristianHupfer He was also subjected to sustained harassment by the British govt. Forced to do hormonal treatment, among other things. Funny way to say thank you.
 
@FaheemMitha: Well, it's true that Turing proposed marriage to Joan Clarke...
 
@JosephWright How nice!
 
@FaheemMitha Not the only person who did badly out of efforts in the war
 
5:06 PM
@ChristianHupfer Oh?
@JosephWright Who else did you have in mind?
 
@FaheemMitha Oppenheimer, for example: suspected of being a communist and had security clearance revoked despite having led the Manhatten project
 
@FaheemMitha: Yes, she was a fellow code cruncher at Hut 8
 
yo'
@ChristianHupfer is it good?
 
@JosephWright: on the other hand a lot of Nazi Scientists got quite comfortable out of the war ...
 
@JosephWright Somewhat different case, but I take your point. He inconveniently grew a conscience. Nasty things, consciences.
I didn't know that about Turing and Joan Clarke.
 
5:09 PM
@yo': If you're into math/cryptography ... well, no ..., it's interesting entertainment, with good actors
 
@JosephWright I like the unicode people. Call their pdfs chap05 or chap07. That is uniqueness.
 
@FaheemMitha I think he had that anyway: it was clear what they were up to could lead to big issues but there was the problem that until you do the work you don't know the answer
@Johannes_B Indeed
 
yo'
@ChristianHupfer I in general don't like this type of movies because they tend to be soooo wrong technically, and it's a burden to me.
 
@Johannes_B Take a look at UnicodeData.txt if you want a great example of versioning
 
@JosephWright well, he did know they were building a new kind of bomb. and they had a pretty good idea of what effect it would have.
But it doesn't seem to have bothered them at the time.
Though some of them seem to have woken up afterwards.
 
5:11 PM
@Johannes_B I wonder if we will have a brave person to name his son/daughter using a complex Unicode sequence. It would be a followup joke of Little Bobby Tables. :)
4
 
@FaheemMitha I'm not sure that is fair: they also had a good idea that the German government was on it
 
There is an Feynman interview where he discussed it quite frankly.
@JosephWright they never had any evidence. just suspicions.
But hindsight is 20/20.
 
@FaheemMitha Quite
 
@PauloCereda Now i am the strange guy in the library laughing for no obvious reason.
 
yo'
Is there a simple way to put a vertical rule running along a paragraph on the left? like in \begin{tabular}{|p{10cm}}#1\end{tabular}?
 
5:12 PM
@Johannes_B <3
 
Feynman admitted he hardly gave it any thought at the time. He seemed quite angry about it. Angry at himself, presumably.
 
yo'
oh I don't need a breakable one, so I can use a \vbox{} :)
 
@FaheemMitha Like I say, I suspect that's because until you've actually got the results you know that you can say lots of stuff will work
 
@JosephWright They knew what they were trying to do, though.
I think it is a safe bet that Joan Clarke didn't look anything like Keira Knightley.
 
@FaheemMitha That does sound reasonable :-)
 
5:19 PM
For that matter Cumberbach doesn't look anything like Turing. I think he is taller, for one thing.
I remember when I was younger being quite shocked by how the British treated Turing. Now I am older, more jaded, and much less shockable.
 
Nice question :-)
0
Q: (Online) generator/engine for creating a whole latex template

zakalakaSince I'm a total newbie to LaTeX I was asking myself if there is a special website or downloadable program which creates a LaTeX document for me. Like in the beginning I would start the program (website) and I need to set the preferences like "What kind of document class I would like?" or "which...

 
@Johannes_B Mr. Paolo is a cool dude. :P
 
@PauloCereda Saw that :-D
 
5:35 PM
@PauloCereda very good! What do you think so far?
 
@PaulGessler Haven't watched so far. :)
 
5:51 PM
Sherlock is very entertaining. Particularly the "Scandal in Bohemia" episode.
If this is inaccurate, someone should correct it:
2
A: Why choose LuaLaTeX over XeLaTeX?

Wolfgang JeltschI agree with Xavier on the first two points. Another advantage of LuaTeX over XeTeX is that LuaTeX uses the PDF engine of pdfTeX, while XeTeX uses its own one. One consequence of this is, that all features of the PGF graphics package (on which TikZ builds) should be available also under LuaTeX, ...

 
27
Q: In a sentence ending with a bold or italicised word, does the period need to be bold/italicised too?

jj_Maybe this will be considered a bit of a nitpicking argument, but I constantly find myself asking: In a paragraph where the last word is bold or italicised, should I make the period at the end bold or italicised too. For example, which of the following is preferrable? Today I met a lot of in...

^^ Possibly relevant to the interests of us in this room. :-)
@PauloCereda ah, ok. Well, I hope you enjoy it!
 
@PaulGessler Thanks, I'll have to reencode the format so my humble tablet can deal with it. :) I will watch it tomorrow during my trip to SP.
 
It seems the AMS was a major driver in the early days of TeX. There were many other parties potentially interested, so why the AMS in particular?
Dunno if that is a suitable question for the site.
 
list one university specific thesis template. I see @PaulGessler a few comments above, who also maintains a special class. We certainly cannot list all of them, who chooses which ones make the list? Or in other words, just mention that there are specialised classes and drop this specific mention?
 
6:11 PM
@FaheemMitha well it's loosely worded, what does "pdf engine" mean but it is the case that luatex is derived from pdftex and xetex isn't.
 
@DavidCarlisle I suppose "pdf engine" means the machinery to obtain a PDF file from a TeX file.
 
@Johannes_B I didn't even realize one specific class was mentioned. Anyway, I don't feel the need to have mine added, because its user base is very small at the moment.
 
@PaulGessler You were just an example. It is more a 01 thing for me. Either add all, which is impossible, or none, which is very possible ;-)
 
@FaheemMitha quite (If I had read that out of context I would probably have guessed it meant something to render pdf) and a consequence of that is that like graphics or color the amount to which features work the same way on different back ends depends on the lengths people go to make that so. I'm not aware of any pgf requirements that require pdftex rather than classic tex or etex, but there may be some I don't know pgf that well.
 
@DavidCarlisle well, even if you don't think it is wrong, an edit to clarify would probably not be a bad thing, assuming it could be misunderstood.
 
yo'
6:18 PM
@JosephWright So I decided that since I use titlesec and tweak it badly, I'll opt for pure L2e for the sectioning commands. I somehow feel it'll be cleaner.
 
@FaheemMitha For questions that ask for an opinion of something my inclination is not to edit other people's opinions. You could always leave a comment asking the person who wrote that to give an example of something that doesn't work in xetex.
 
6:39 PM
anybody up for some really nasty stuff?
\renewcommand{\thechapter}{\textbf{4}}
\chapter{\textbf{ChapterName}}
 All text...
 
6:50 PM
@FaheemMitha -- very simple, really, why the ams was interested. knuth was invited to present the gibbs lecture (a public lecture by an eminent scientist, not particularly a mathematician, whose work utilizes math) at the 1979 annual meeting. his subject was mathematics in the service of typography, and in the lecture he introduced tex and metafont.
the typesetting system in use by ams at the time was not ideal, and tex sounded like it was ready for use. the head of the ams board of trustees, dick palais, was instrumental in seeing that the opportunity was not missed. things turned out to be somewhat more complicated, but in the end, tex was installed and made into a production system.
 
This utter mess of zip-files containing strange templates. It is one thing to say i cannot provide an MWE, i have a template. But not being able to proper link a centralized place and instead uploading that piece of crappy template to a freaking dropbox. Realizing that one has downloaded that i'll written (and by now updated) template for the fourth time. ARGH
 
@Johannes_B Your talk for TUG2015? :-)
 
@JosephWright No :-) In fact, i think i cannot make it :-(
 
@Johannes_B Drat
 
@DavidCarlisle Ok
@DavidCarlisle Unlikely to get an answer though. Last seen Aug 16, 2013.
@barbarabeeton I see. That's interesting, thanks. I guess I was wondering why other users of mathematical typesetting systems, of which there must be many, were not also interested.
Was it because TeX was not production-ready at the time? Or simply that they didn't know about it? Or that they didn't take serious software work coming out of academia?
 
7:09 PM
If anybody has a spare upvote, i'd like to get this done in chat.
2
Q: LoF, LoT, Abstract, Acronyms non-numbered in ToC - why?

PetraThe solution of LOF+LOT+BIB in TOC with numbered chapter does not work in my case. Admittedly I used a template of some other person - when I produce a Pdf with his code all above mentioned sections are numbered. However, when I produce the Pdf of my code, these sections remain unnumbered - whic...

 
@ChristianHupfer -- before the movie existed, there was a graphic novel by the same name -- "the imitation game" -- that i understand was based on several reliable biographies, which in turn had input from turing's mother and others who knew him. this novel is much more detailed than any movie can be, and it seems to me to more accurately tell the story. (the novel isn't mentioned in any of the movie reviews.)
 
@Johannes_B Done
You'll need one more to get to 20 though.
 
@FaheemMitha thanks
 
@FaheemMitha -- not so many math typesetting systems, and those pretty expensive. math has always been "penalty copy", with a relatively small audience. ams was willing to take a chance; but other publishers like having the "guarantee" of a license under which, if something goes wrong, some established and well funded company will promise to fix it.
 
@barbarabeeton Ok. No, I meant the users must be many, not the typesetting systems. :-)
So basically, at the time, AMS was the only entity interested in development of TeX? Not even other academic organizations like ACM or IEEE?
ACM on the face of it would seem like a natural partner.
 
7:27 PM
@barbarabeeton: I've put a biography/history book about Turing in my Amazon cart ;-)
 
@FaheemMitha -- oh, okay. (yes, more users than systems.) the content and complexity of math notation in ams publications is far greater than that in those of acm or ieee. physicists are the next heaviest users of nasty notation, i think. and i believe there's not a really wide overlap in membership between ams and either acm or ieee, so i suspect it took a while for the word to get around.
 
@ChristianHupfer Are you cleaning as well right now? I could swear, that the Q hadn't any close vote when i looked at it a few minutes ago.
 
@barbarabeeton I see. Interesting how these things work out.
Surprising how many of these kinds of project start with someone deciding to do something on their own.
 
@FaheemMitha in my (limited) experience, when too many people get involved too early, more time is spent deciding what to do than actually doing things. :-)
 
@ChristianHupfer SPOOKY
 
7:34 PM
@barbarabeeton Thank you very much for the link! I wrote a quick Python code to fetch all images and build a nice book out of it! :)
 
@PaulGessler but without support such efforts can flounder early. Though I guess Knuth was an unusually determined and capable individual. Who presumably had the spare time and energy needed. Presumably being a tenured professor helped.
 
@PauloCereda -- please observe the copyright. i'll send you the author's address off-line; i was expecting that this would be published in hard copy by now, but i haven't heard of that happening.
 
@barbarabeeton Oh terribly sorry! I meant for personal reading, as during most of my trips I don't have connectivity. :(
 
yo'
how would you give a background to a whole table?
 
@yo' Print on coloured paper? :)
 
yo'
7:47 PM
@PauloCereda inventive
 
@yo' I'm lazy. :)
 
yo'
@PauloCereda well, I would boxify the table, measure it and print it over a \rule, but that seems too much :D
 
@yo' ooh. <3
 
yo'
well, \colorbox may do it :)
 
8:08 PM
@yo' @PauloCereda ought to know a good way since he saw such a macro earlier today:-)
@yo' yes possibly wrapped in an lrbox if you want an environment form
 
@DavidCarlisle I might need an aircraft. :)
 
@DavidCarlisle I just discovered something potentially peculiar
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{array,colortbl}

\begin{document}
\begin{tabular}{rl}
  \rowcolor{cyan} foo & bar
\end{tabular}

\begin{tabular}{r!{\enspace}l}
  \rowcolor{cyan} foo & bar
\end{tabular}
\end{document}
Is it that the \rowcolor is not carried through in the area between the columns?
 
@PaulGessler How about ? :)
 
@PauloCereda could be that, too, I suppose. Especially since David does not make bugs or typos. :-)
 
@PaulGessler Never ever. :)
 
yo'
8:11 PM
@DavidCarlisle is lrbox better than NewEnviron for any reason?
 
@yo' well it's different. It's more natural for taht use, and allows verbatim
 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle lrbox allows verbatim? cool
 
@PaulGessler people should think themselves lucky that they get any colour at all. No behaviour of colortbl is a bug
 
yo'
I just wonder how to automate it if someone wanted to use another table environment like tabu, tabularx or whatever
and also, how to increase the space at the top... ah I can \advance\ht
 
@yo' \newenvironment{yellowtab}{\begin{lrbox}{0}}{\end{lrbox}\colorbox{yellow}{\useb‌​ox{0}} then leave it for the user to put any kind of content in there
 
yo'
8:15 PM
@DavidCarlisle that was my thought, yeah
@DavidCarlisle you've got some non-printable character in your \usebox I think
 
@PaulGessler It's sort of document and sort of fixable as the overhang is \tabcolsep so if you effectively change that you need to specify a different overhang. Except that means dropping back to \multicolumn{1}{>[\rowcolor... as that's the only form with the overhang arguments
@yo' ?
 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle I dunno why bbut I got some unicode characters inside the text \usebox in your post above when I copied it from there
yes, there's something after o
 
4 hours ago, by Christian Hupfer
@JosephWright: Unicode sucks ;-)
:-)
 
  U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U
  U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S
  U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E
  U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B
  U+200c ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER
  U+200b ZERO WIDTH SPACE
  U+006f LATIN SMALL LETTER O
  U+0078 LATIN SMALL LETTER X
@yo' I just typed \usebox :-)
 
@DavidCarlisle ok, that makes sense. This is for a quick edit at proofing stage, so I'll just hack it with some space at the end of the widest cell.
 
yo'
8:21 PM
@DavidCarlisle :-)
 
@yo' I wonder if that was firefox's input field or the site's markdown processor added that?
 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle who knows
 
@yo' I hope it doesn't start happening to answers on site or people are going to get very confused...
 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle it was actually the TeXworks syntax highlight only that helped me recognize the problem ;)
 
@yo' emacs would have spotted the error fixed it and sent me a mail saying to be more careful next time.
 
yo'
8:25 PM
@DavidCarlisle and make you a toast
 
@DavidCarlisle And played a rendition of God Save The Queen.
 
@Johannes_B: The dark side of the force is always keen on vote to close ;-)
 
@ChristianHupfer :-)
 
Have a nice time... Have to get up very early tomorrow
 
8:44 PM
@ChristianHupfer See you, good night.
 
emacs users: I just sent a message to auctex-devel concerning expl3 development support. Care to weigh in? thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.auctex.devel/3794
 
What the fuck did just happen? Is it just me? Everything looks odd.
 
@Johannes_B ? but edit anyway please
 
@Johannes_B Everything looks normal to me…
 
@SeanAllred Speaking of... ugh... emacs, once I'm done with my manual, I'll write an emacs and vim plugins. :)
 
8:51 PM
@SeanAllred while you are at it you could extend the google prettify patterns so it gets correct syntax highlights on this site...
 
@DavidCarlisle I've actually been working on that. That thread I linked to has appropriate regular expressions.
Though I don't know how the plugin would practically distinguish expl3 from plain
I suppose it could be considered an entirely separate language (extending from plain) and the language could be based on tag.
 
@SeanAllred I think you'd have to make it a different language and use the magic language comment at start of a code block to switch to l3
 
@DavidCarlisle Wouldn't be unreasonable to expect, I suppose – but the SE platform has the ability to choose language based on tags, I think
@JosephWright can you confirm that? ^^^
 
@SeanAllred probably but how does that help egreg who posts l3 answers to anything, or me who posts plain tex answers to l3 questions?
 
8:55 PM
@DavidCarlisle Well you'll just have to stop living in the past :)
egreg would just have to include that cookie you mentioned
the magic language comment
 
@SeanAllred But in my past I used latex3;-)
 
@DavidCarlisle I will wear a T-shirt saying David Carlisle parses XML with TeX. Your argument is invalid. in this year's TUG.
4
 
@DavidCarlisle You've regressed :(
@PauloCereda :D :D :D Take pictures!!
 
@SeanAllred Selfies with David himself. :)
 
@SeanAllred perhaps I grew up
 
8:56 PM
Unless he charges me for those. :)
 
Interesting interview.
 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle all it takes is to provide the l3 syntax highlighting rules in the right format. SE out-sources this.
 
Getting stuff done was harder before the Internet.
 
@Sean: speaking of it, arara 5.0 might have an embedded TeX editor. I might give expl3 a try. :)
 
@DavidCarlisle Really though – what made you throw away expl3?
 
yo'
8:57 PM
@PauloCereda sounds like a firm statement, in both your tee and your arrival :)
 
@PauloCereda Seriously? XD
 
@yo' yes to google prettify, but I think you'd need an explicit comment to switch code blocks to l3 syntax, I can't see any automatic way that would be reliable enough
 
@DavidCarlisle vvv
217
Q: Syntax highlighting language hints

Rowland ShawDo you think it would be worthwhile to provide hints as to what language to use for the syntax highlighting? Sometimes I find the highlighting on SQL or VB.NET answers is more distracting than helpful; for example: Converting MySQL select to PostgreSQL Retrieving data from a VB.NET arraylist o...

 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle well, you can do that anyways. Or I think that you can try to make an auto that detects ExplSyntaxOn/Off
 
@SeanAllred I hope so. :)
 
8:58 PM
@SeanAllred I worked on latex3 mostly before we did latex2e, so it's a while back now. But apart from answering questions here I haven't really used tex at all for ten years or so so I just got out of practice:-)
 
yo'
@SeanAllred yep, tag-based expectations. But go through all posts containing \ExplSyntaxOn and see how many are tagged
 
@yo' 1361 questions containing \ExplSyntaxOn not tagged
Ugh.
Well, if @DavidCarlisle's right, then it'll mostly be egreg who'd need to update his answers. That's give David enough time to catch up :)
!!/battle………*sigh*
 
@yo' <3
@SeanAllred ooh hold on!
 
@PauloCereda <3
 
@SeanAllred <3 It should work now. :)
 
9:02 PM
@PauloCereda I need status reports in battle with Gonzalo not egreg
 
@DavidCarlisle I will update. :)
 
Yeah, egreg's kinda just 'out there' now…in space
wheeeee
 
!!/battle
@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The current score is egreg 320 vs. 230 David. So far, egreg is winning.
 
@PauloCereda And England packed up their luggage.
 
@egreg Oh no!
 
9:10 PM
@PauloCereda That's what @HarishKumar said. ;-)
 
@egreg Rugby will be an official sport in the Olympics next year, so Brazil has a team already. :)
 
The current status is Gonzalo 243008 vs. 242748 David. So far, Gonzalo's still leading. But egreg has so big an advantage over both…
@PauloCereda It's Rugby 7, the light version without real scrums and rucks.
 
@egreg What if we have multiballs? It could be interesting. :)
 
You know what makes me sad? There hasn't been any work down on prettify in four years
oh wait – it was just that file. Still, a year.
 
yo'
@egreg Can one somehow simulate \rleaders?
 
9:17 PM
@yo' What should it be?
 
yo'
@egreg well, \leaders are starting from the left, no? I would need ones that start the other way around ....
 
@yo' No, they aren't.
 
@yo' \beginL \leaders but as egreg says they aren't really left aligned
 
yo'
@DavidCarlisle that's from bidi?
 
@yo' beware what you ask for
 
yo'
9:19 PM
@DavidCarlisle still, doesn't sound like a good idea...
 
@yo' There are three kinds of leaders: \leaders, \cleaders and \xleaders; the first kind aligns the boxes with respect to an imaginary infinite grid as wide as the box to be repeated. It doesn't necessarily start from the left.
 
Prof. Palais refers to AMSTeX. I guess nobody uses this any longer.
Though I should not use the word "nobody". Let's say "used by few people".
 
yo'
@egreg and what does the grid offset depends on? The page?
 
@yo' See this example:
\setbox0=\hbox to 3cm{\leaders\hbox{x}\hfil}

\noindent abc\leaders\copy0\hfill abc

\bye
 
@FaheemMitha there was a question on site about it in the last few days.
 
9:23 PM
 
yo'
@egreg so leaders of the same size will always be aligned? Even across pages?
 
@yo' As you see, the first 3cm are not covered, because the box doesn't fit.
@yo' Yes, that's the idea
 
yo'
@egreg c'est cool ça!
 
@FaheemMitha -- ams-tex didn't/doesn't support automatic numbering and cross-referencing, and mike spivak wasn't particularly impressed with the way that was done with latex. however, the preponderance of authors really needed those features. spivak extended ams-tex to lams-tex, but latex was there first, and the ams succumbed to the pressure to adopt it. the math facilities were reworked into what is now amsmath, and the document processing into ams classes and amsthm.
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh
Was it answered?
@barbarabeeton I see. Thanks for the history lesson. :-)
 
9:37 PM
@barbarabeeton Do you know if it's possible to get somewhere the LAMS-TeX manual?
 
@FaheemMitha yes some old bloke who'd used amstex in the past answered it, can't remember his name, I think he was Italian?
 
@DavidCarlisle link?
 
8
Q: Rescuing/Compiling old TeX file starting with “\input amstex”

user71525I have come across an ancient (1995) LaTeX file which was (surely) once compliant, but now does not compile at all. Is there any way to rescue it? My actual question is much more precise. I want a copy of the follow paper on the arXiv: http://arxiv.org/abs/alg-geom/9401005 Downloading the pdf ...

 
Yes, I see there are still quite a lot of questions about plain TeX.
@egreg Thanks.
Having the source is sure handy.
 
@egreg -- i'm not aware of any reliable source for the basic lams-tex manual. however, the "wizard's manual" has been posted on ctan: mirrors.ctan.org/macros/lamstex/doc/… (but it's probably better to use the ctan search).
 
9:45 PM
@egreg btw, is it true you have a motorcycle, or is that just an urban legend?
 
@FaheemMitha It's true. In the garage for the Winter, but Spring is coming.
 
@egreg Ah. Dangerous things, motorcycles. But maybe Italy is a safer place to drive than India.
 
@FaheemMitha Well, it's a big scooter, to be precise: Honda SW-T 600. Probably the difference is that we drive on the right side of the road.
 
@egreg Yes, I agree. Driving on the right side is important.
 
@egreg -- ah, spring! maybe it will come to providence sometime. (and when it does, i will have my annual debate with myself ... is this the year i succumb and again acquire a vespa?)
 
9:51 PM
@barbarabeeton Do it!
 
@barbarabeeton a vespa is a little scooter, right?
Oh, it's the name of a company.
 
@egreg -- gotta get rid of the snow first -- the piles by the sides of the street are way taller than the top of my head, and more came down today. i know from past experience that a two-wheeled vehicle (human- or motor-powered) is not safe on snow, ice, or wet leaves!
 
@barbarabeeton you live in Providence? That's nice.
 
@barbarabeeton For sure!
 
Wow, RH sounds much more urban than I expected. I thought of it as a sylvan, wooded area.
 
9:56 PM
@FaheemMitha -- some are not so little. but they are much more decorous to ride than your average motorcycle, especially if one tries to be a lady and wears skirts.
 
@barbarabeeton But New England must be a good place for bike touring.
 
@barbarabeeton I see.
 
@egreg -- quite a few people do. but it was easier, and less dangerous, before all the interstate highways were built. (and you have to like hills. when i was in college, not all that many people had bicycles. i got up college hill by going into the providence county courthouse on the ground floor, asked the elevator operator to let me off at the fifth floor, walked out the back door, and was still only halfway up the hill. try that now ...)
 
yo'
@egreg Please, is there anything like \cs_if_empty:NTF ?
 
@yo' Do you mean \tl_if_empty:NTF?
 
yo'
10:01 PM
@egreg ah ok, \tl_if_empty:xTF I think
 
@barbarabeeton Well, I assumed motorbike. Climbing hills is not my favorite hobby, without a motor helping me.
 
yo'
ah no, you're right of course, thanks
 
10:16 PM
@egreg -- no, i meant a pedal bike. some masochists i've seen recently (but before it started snowing) are riding single-speed bikes (there's a fancier name, but i've forgotten it) around providence. certainly something i could never manage!
 
yo'
@barbarabeeton you mean BMX?
 
@barbarabeeton I think the word you're looking for is "fixie(s)" (slang for fixed-gear) --- slightly more specific than single-speed.
 
@yo' -- maybe. they look like slightly heavy-duty road bikes, with straight handlebars. but they do have caliper brakes, not a coaster brake. neither "bmx" nor "fixie" is the term my husband used to refer to them though, i don't think.
 
yo'
@barbarabeeton ok
 
yo'
10:40 PM
so, still no news about TUG15?
 
@yo' I'm looking forward to hearing details as well. Certain soon-to-be-made decisions may allow me to make the trip. I initially thought I wouldn't be able to make it.
 
yo'
@PaulGessler well, you're not in a bad place, direct flight to Frankfurt
 
@yo' indeed! MKE and ORD both have direct options, which is nice.
 
yo'
@PaulGessler I'm quite surprised about MKE having a direct to FRA. Google doesn't seem so acknowledge it...
 
10:57 PM
@yo' oh, you're right, I've just checked. It used to be that some airline did, I thought. But not anymore I guess. Or maybe I'm remembering wrong. My uncle used to fly to Germany/Switzerland for business often.
 
yo'
@PaulGessler well, O'Hare is how far? 100 miles?
 
@yo' even better: about 65. :-)
 
yo'
(I wanted to ask whether you get a good train connection, but then I remembered that you're in the US, and I better resisted.)
 
@yo' yes, better to not ask. :-) There is Amtrak MKE-CHI, but it's overpriced IMO and slow.
 
yo'
@PaulGessler how much is it?
 
11:03 PM
@yo' $25 one-way. But that train only goes to Union Station (downtown) or some northern suburbs, then you have to find another method to get to the airport.
 
yo'
@PaulGessler that's really unbelievable. Tho $25 is not that much, if it's a comfy train.
 
@yo' yeah $25 is not too bad. The trains aren't bad, but I wouldn't call them "comfy". (Though I got spoiled by the train system when I was in Switzerland... :-) )
 
yo'
@PaulGessler you should have gone to France, or Czechia :)
 
@yo' when my wife and I were in Paris on honeymoon in June, we never took the TGV or other lines. Only Métro and one trip on the RER to/from Versailles.
 
yo'
@PaulGessler RER is the exemplary one :D
 
11:09 PM
And no experience in Czechia. My parents have been there, though.
 
@yo' Not the model for comfy trains.
 
I'm unclear what the result of \ifx actually is.
Per (for example)
6
A: What is the difference between \ifx\somecommand\undefined and \ifdefined\somecommand\else?

Roelof SpijkerAccording to TeX by Topic \ifx tests macro equality in the following manner. Equality of tokens is tested in a stronger sense than the above by \ifx token1 token2 Character tokens are equal for \ifx if they have the same character code and category code. Control sequence tokens...

It says gives true and false. What does that mean. I tried testing it, and I just get a blank.
Does TeX even have booleans?
 
\ifx\somecommand\undefined returns true provided \undefined is really undefined and also \somecommand is undefined. On the contrary, \ifdefined\somecommand returns true if \somecommand is defined and doesn't rely on another token being undefined.
 
@egreg What does "returns true" mean here? Does it mean that some following instruction/macro is executed?
 
@FaheemMitha It depends on what you mean by “having booleans”. The syntax of TeX conditionals is “\IF<test><true text>\else<false text>\fi, where \IF` is one of the primitive conditionals. The <test> in the case of \ifx consists of two tokens. In case of \ifdefined the <test> is just one token.
 
11:16 PM
@FaheemMitha yes but the value is implicit \iftrue yes\else no\fi expands to yes and so does \ifx\hbox\hbox yes\else no\fi
 
@DavidCarlisle Ok, so by itself, it doesn't do anything.
 
@FaheemMitha by itself it is an error
 
@FaheemMitha It means that the <true text> is executed and the <false text> is discarded (in a peculiar way, though).
 
@egreg For example, in Python, the equivalent of that expression will yield the boolean True.
 
@FaheemMitha Don't try to compare TeX conditionals with other programming languages.
 
11:17 PM
So, it is a valid Python expression itself.
 
@FaheemMitha don't even think of comparing TeX conditionals to other languages. that way lies pain.
 
@egreg I'll try not to.
 
@egreg you are turning in to me
 
I was just responding to your comment: It depends on what you mean by “having booleans”.
That's what I meant.
 
This is amazing article to read about Walter Pitts: "When he was offered his Ph.D., he refused to sign the paperwork. He set fire to his dissertation along with all of his notes and his papers. Years of work—important work that everyone in the community was eagerly awaiting— he burnt it all, priceless information reduced to entropy and ash. Wiesner offered Lettvin increased support for the lab if he could recover any bits of the dissertation. But it was all gone."
 
11:18 PM
@FaheemMitha I know but see how egreg and i responded:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle Ok. Thanks.
@Nasser I'd never heard of either of these people. I'm so ignorant.
 
@FaheemMitha primitive tex conditional are basically weird and have all kinds of traps for the unwary, that is why there are so many packages that try to give some syntax with more easily describable behaviour, ifthenelse, etoolbox, expl3, ....
@FaheemMitha you're not the only one:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle I'll try to cope. Thanks.
@Nasser Pitts sounds like a sad case. But he's not alone.
There is the better known example of William James Sidis, for example.
 
@FaheemMitha thanks for the link. Reading these, I am glad I am not a genius so that I do not have to worry about doing something crazy like these guys did and end up dying too early.
 
11:30 PM
@Nasser I don't think being a genius means being messed up.
Though it will probably mean you won't have an easy life.
So, in this macro, what are the two args to \ifx?
\def\ref#1{%
\expandafter\ifx\csname R@#1\endcsname\relax
\global\expandafter\let\csname R@#1\endcsname\@empty
\immediate\write\@auxout{%
\string\gappto\string\ReferencedIDs{#1,}%
}%
\fi
\oldref{#1}%
}
 
11:48 PM
@FaheemMitha \expandafter builds a token from \csname R@#1\endcsname before \ifx is executed. If the argument at call time is foo, this is the same as doing \ifx\R@foo\relax, which returns true if \R@foo is undefined.
 
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