TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2015-01-12 (page 2 of 2)

Andrew Cashner

23:01

Have a good day/night, everyone. I learned a lot as always!

yo'

@AndrewCashner bye!

cfr

@JosephWright I did not mean to imply that you did. (But English lacks proper conditionals!)

@AndrewCashner Thank you for ignoring my advice ;).

@PauloCereda Why?

Paulo Cereda

@cfr I would like to see how the first interaction of a person with a computer would be with Linux.

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda You mean someone who's never used anything before?

cfr

@yo' I know that you asked me to write an answer to your question on meta. But I don't want to make trouble and I am afraid that that is all that I would be making.

Paulo Cereda

23:12

@AlanMunn Yep, my mum.

yo'

@cfr well, I understand your reason I think. However, open and honest discussion is not "making troubles", it's IMHO the only way to solutions :)

cfr

@PauloCereda My mum uses Linux. Not the first thing she ever used, though. (Dos followed by Mac OS X followed by Mint and now Fedora.) However, I don't think she would know if somebody asked her. If she needs to tell somebody on the phone, I have to tell her she's not using... etc.

Paulo Cereda

@cfr :)

cfr

@PauloCereda I updated my work computer from Fedora 19 to Fedora 21 and it wouldn't boot!

Paulo Cereda

@cfr: What window manager does she use? I'm thinking of installing Cinnamon instead of Gnome 3.

cfr

23:16

Otherwise fairly smooth.

Paulo Cereda

@cfr Oh my, really? It shouldn't. :(

cfr

@PauloCereda KDE.

Paulo Cereda

@cfr Really? Wow, I wouldn't expect it. :)

cfr

@PauloCereda I know. It definitely shouldn't. It didn't update grub properly. Oddly, I managed to boot Fedora 21 using a version 19 kernal.

kernel, that is.

Paulo Cereda

@cfr So far, I'm in love with F21. It's awesome.

cfr

23:18

@PauloCereda It never, ever updates grub properly. I should have expected it.

@PauloCereda Do you use pdftk? Fedora 21 seems not to have it and I don't know what I am going to do without it.

Paulo Cereda

@cfr I always do clean install, every single time. Some friend said I should try fedup.

@cfr I feel the same. :( I used pdftk all the time and it seems to be deprecated. :( For a quick and dirty work, try pdf-mod.

cfr

@PauloCereda She uses KDE on the grounds that I use KDE. I finally gave up trying to pick something she could learn easily (because she won't), and decided she might as well use something which I would know so that I could easily help her when she gets stuck.

Paulo Cereda

@cfr good point. :)

Harish Kumar

@cfr You got my vote too :)

cfr

@PauloCereda Every time I sat down to troubleshoot Mint, I got into trouble because I had no idea how anything worked or where anything was. At least this way I can say 'press ....' and don't even necessarily need to be there. It makes helping a lot easier.

@HarishKumar But I said not to!

Christian Hupfer

23:22

@cfr: I used gnome only for a short period, but switched to KDE 1.2 then ... this was in 1998 (I believe ;-)) And since then no other window manager was used ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@cfr To be honest, I'd go with XFCE. :)

Harish Kumar

@cfr I/We don't listen to you :P

yo'

I'm happy wiith MATE ;)

cfr

@ChristianHupfer The biggest thing Gnome has over KDE is language support. KDE doesn't do Welsh.

Harish Kumar

Hi @yo' Late nights?

yo'

23:23

@cfr you mean Gnome 2 or Gnome 3?

@HarishKumar it's 0:20, so not so late. And I'm on my way to bed

cfr

@ChristianHupfer I need real transparency. That is, I use it functionally. So that cut down the choice. (I have a small screen. I copy things through a semi-transparent window sometimes. It was really, really annoying when I couldn't do this.)

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: KDE does not support my German dialect too, this is not a crucial decision for me. (I know, Welsh is not an English dialect!)

Harish Kumar

@yo' Its 4:54 here :D I woke up and logged in for voting the TUG question :)

cfr

@ChristianHupfer I'm using it despite the lack of Welsh. This is also in Thunderbird.

yo'

@ChristianHupfer Welsh is not. :D (sorry, that was mean)

Christian Hupfer

23:26

@yo': Yes, as I've written ;-)

cfr

@PauloCereda Transparency thing was a response to you but I misdirected it to @ChristianHupfer. Sorry.

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: I'll never write to you again ... :-P

yo'

@ChristianHupfer damn, this happens when someone misunderstands your offensive joke and thinks it wasn't a joke. Maybe it's better this way :)

cfr

@yo' Do you mean that to have a double-meaning with serious historical associations?

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: I use both KDE and thunderbird in English

cfr

23:28

@ChristianHupfer I really use KDE because of Kile. I use Firefox in Welsh.

Also LibreOffice in Welsh.

yo'

@cfr No, no historical associations. The sentence itself: "Welsh is not." outside of any context is IMHO offensive. (cf. "Jewish is not." in 1940's)

cfr

And my journal is a weird mix of Welsh dates and English messages (i.e. the log - not a journal I write).

Paulo Cereda

@cfr I'll see if pdftk is available somewhere and I'll try to build it from source.

cfr

@yo' Yes. I see that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: Since I know nothing of the Welsh language (apart from providing very looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong town names ;-)) it's very likely that the usage of Welsh Firefox etc. is justified for your work.

yo'

23:30

@cfr yeah. I shouldn't have made that comment at all :(

cfr

@ChristianHupfer Why would I need to justify it?

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: Not for me... I misinterpreted your lines obviously

yo'

after all, I'm pro-mutli-cultural by both heart and brain ;)

cfr

@yo' Well, you weren't to know about the historical associations specific to Welsh.

yo'

@cfr I come from a small (in number) nation surrounded by large nations, so I could have guessed ;)

cfr

23:32

@yo' Which is why I asked. If I'd assumed you'd known, I'd probably just have got mad.

yo'

@cfr I'll certainly remember it for the next time

cfr

@yo' Really, it is fine. If you say it again tomorrow, it won't be. But only because I'd know you knew, if you see what I mean.

yo'

@cfr I do :)

cfr

@yo' ;).

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: For me, a localized version of KDE, firefox etc. for my German dialect is of no use, since it looks awfully written in words.

yo'

23:35

@ChristianHupfer you can write German dialects? Oh well, of course, it's a phonetic language.

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: And I use US keyboard mapping, since this easier to write {} etc. ;-)

cfr

@yo' ;).

Paulo Cereda

@yo' Das Windmachinewhichistiedtoacaneandputinthewallthingy

German is so easy.

cfr

@ChristianHupfer I use a US keyboard, by preference. (In work, I use a UK one but my laptop has US.)

Christian Hupfer

@yo': No, that's exactly the problem... phonetic language for German dialect ... :D

yo'

23:37

well, with the Czech language, writing dialects is very easy (with couple exceptions, for which umlauts would be necessary)

Christian Hupfer

@PauloCereda: Three syllabus of German in it, the rest is silence :-P

cfr

@PauloCereda And they complain about our place names!

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer LOL

@cfr :)

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: And the KDE quick - keyboad - switch ... :D When I have to write a mail etc. with äöüß ;-)

cfr

@ChristianHupfer You are not doing very well at carrying through on your threat.

Christian Hupfer

23:40

@cfr: Sorry, I am confused... which threat?

cfr

@ChristianHupfer îôŵŷ mostly...

Alan Munn

@ChristianHupfer You're not supposed to be talking to @cfr :)

cfr

@ChristianHupfer You said you would never write to me again...

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: I am that old I've already forgotten this...

yo'

@cfr that's nothing compared to ěščřžýáíéúůóďťňĚŠČŘŽÝÁÍÉÚŮÓĎŤŇ ;)

Paulo Cereda

23:43

I love SuperBowl.

cfr

@ChristianHupfer No point in asking you why, then. ;)

yo'

@PauloCereda me not ...

Christian Hupfer

@cfr: Who are you? :-P

cfr

@yo' I didn't include capitals. Actually, âêîôûŵŷ ï and sometimes on o, I think. And occasionally other accents on things like é. And then the capitals. But no accents on consonants. Consonants become other consonants but they don't get accents.

@ChristianHupfer ?

yo'

@cfr and w makes a nice vowel ;)

Christian Hupfer

23:46

@cfr: Nevermind ...

cfr

@yo' It does, indeed. It makes a lovely 'ooooo' sound in gwdihŵs! Also y makes a nice vowel.

yo'

the ones I shown are the native Czech ones, of course you have some words that use foreign accents (like café in English, which uses the French accent)

@cfr y is a vowel in Czech, too. And l and r can behave like vowels if they want to (they are quite moody), like in čtvrthrst

cfr

@yo' I would not count English as having accents because they only every occur on borrowed words. Except, I guess for naïve. That's the only example I can think of.

@yo' Interesting. W and y can behave like consonants if they feel like it.

yo'

@cfr that one comes from French ;)

Christian Hupfer

@yo': And if the letters are in a bad mood, anyone behaves like a consonant ;-)

cfr

23:49

@yo' Yes, but it is integrated in a way that café, say, isn't.

yo'

@ChristianHupfer no, you can't have 9 consonants in a row, that's too much even for Czech :D

@cfr true. Still, it was taken verbatim, so it doesn't count :p

Christian Hupfer

@yo': Hard to hear the difference for a non-Czech :-P

cfr

@yo' But then English turns out to be virtually non-existent since almost everything is somebody else's.

@yo' The 'penguins' are supposed to be ours, although I'm not sure if they really are or not.

yo'

@cfr that's not true. For instance, search is an English word, no matter its origin is in French cherche.

cfr

@yo' So it counts if, and only if, it gets changed?

yo'

23:51

And in the word naivety, the umlaut disappears. That's my point: it exists in naïve just and only because it's a foreign word adopted verbatim.

Christian Hupfer

@yo' and to look is from German luegen ...so English is a mixture of lot of languages (as most languages are ;-))

yo'

@cfr I dunno. However, I'm yet to find an English word that has accents and is not taken verbatim from another language.

cfr

@yo' Actually, OED gives 'naive' and naivety' with 'naïve' and 'naïvety' as variant forms.

yo'

Well, you have blessèd, but there the accent grave is more a pronounciation mark

@cfr interesting. surprising (at least to me)

cfr

@yo' I'd still like to know about the penguins. It is supposed to be from the Welsh for 'white head' but how many penguins have white heads?

yo'

23:55

@cfr etymology is not a logic, it's an alchemy ;)

Christian Hupfer

@yo': You will be banned from Linguists.SX :-P

yo'

@ChristianHupfer at your service, Sir :D

if etymology was a logic, then hostility and hospitality couldn't live in parallel in one language

Christian Hupfer

@yo': For sure, there are a lot of assumptions, but I find it remarkable that it is possible to 'construct' a Proto-European language somehow...

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