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1:41 AM
Can the question [A command with a variable number of arguments: comma versus and ](tex.stackexchange.com/q/481707/118714) be re-opened so that I can post the answer I spent time on preparing?
 
1:51 AM
@UlrichDiez done, although answering the older question would also have been a possibility?
 
2:09 AM
@DavidCarlisle Thank you. I just did answer the older question as well and to me it seems the questions are different: In the older question the amount of arguments that are to be processed/to be iterated is variable but predetermined by the value of some count-register. In the newer question the amount of arguments that are to be processed/to be iterated is not to be predetermined at all.
 
 
6 hours later…
8:03 AM
@UlrikeFischer ooh
@UlrikeFischer OOH
 
@PauloCereda moral dilemma: should ooh counting be case sensitive?
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh a dilemma
 
@PauloCereda and why didn't the next image get an even bigger ooh?
 
@UlrikeFischer OOOOOH
@DavidCarlisle Pardon :)
“Grammar is the logic of speech, even as logic is the grammar of reason.” — Richard Chenevix Trench
 
8:18 AM
@PauloCereda oooh a grammar loop
 
@CarLaTeX oh no
/quacks in despair
 
8:31 AM
user image
5
I need 500000 points more, of 5 less ;-)
 
@UlrikeFischer ooh
 
8:53 AM
user image
6
 
9:12 AM
@DavidCarlisle in 3019 when latex3 is ready?
3
 
 
1 hour later…
10:34 AM
I've got the following in my ~/.bashrc:
export TEXINPUTS=/home/faheem/personal/texmf//:
I'm now not sure where I got it from. But with this setting, pdflatex does not look for sty files in the local directory.
Isn't it standard that a file in the local directory takes precedence?
 
10:51 AM
@FaheemMitha If you want to keep the default (.//):
export TEXINPUTS=$TEXINPUTS:/home/faheem/personal/texmf//:
 
11:03 AM
@AlexG I don't think there is a default TEXINPUTS, is there?
Based on my reading, it looks like there may be no standard.
 
11:25 AM
I'm using something like this in my LaTeX file:
\ShellEscape{pdflatex -shell-escape foo/bar.tex}
But this creates bar.pdf in my top level directory. Does anyone know a way to have it inside foo?
 
11:41 AM
@FaheemMitha same as usual ShellEscape{cd foo; pdflatex -shell-escape bar.tex}
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, that's what I ended up doing. So pdflatex doesn't have a file output flag?
 
@AlexG the trailing : is the same as the default value of TEXINPUTS
@FaheemMitha it does but I never use it, simpler and better to cd, otherwise you have to configure everything else (makeindex, bibtex, and tex itself, to find teh files that you have written to a non standard place)
 
@DavidCarlisle It does? It's not mentioned in help.
And I take it that it's not a good idea to use it in general.
 
@FaheemMitha vvv
$ pdftex --help | grep output-directory
-output-directory=DIR   use existing DIR as the directory to write files in
@FaheemMitha some people don't agree but I'd advise never using it
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh, looked for it, but missed it. Dammit.
@DavidCarlisle Ok.
 
12:02 PM
@DavidCarlisle Ah, thanks! Didn't know that.
 
@AlexG you can use a blank section anywhere TEXINPUTS=foo::bar appends foo and prepends bar on to the standard path.
 
@FaheemMitha Yes, you are right. There is nothing set by default. I have a personal script to set up my TeX environment.
@DavidCarlisle Is it a TeX specialty? Or does it work with standard environment variables, such as PATH in Bash as well?
 
Just posted a LaTeX file that upsets AUCTeX. I assume that should not happen.
 
@AlexG there are no enviornment variable set by default but the paths are all set up in texmf.cnf files which you can have local copies of, that is often easier than setting things in the environment (especially on windows, or on linux if you are using some editor launched from a shell that doesn't read your normal settings)
@AlexG no it's tex, (actually kpathse library) a blank segment in an environment variable means use the value form the kpathse texmf..cnf setting at that point.
@AlexG the effective value can be seen by
$ echo $TEXINPUTS

$ kpsexpand '$TEXINPUTS'
.:{{}/home/davidc/.texlive2019/texmf-config,/home/davidc/.texlive2019/texmf-var,/home/davidc/texmf,!!/usr/local/texlive/texmf-local,!!/usr/local/texlive/2019/texmf-config,!!/usr/local/texlive/2019/texmf-var,!!/usr/local/texlive/2019/texmf-dist}/tex/{kpsewhich,generic,}//
 
@DavidCarlisle :Thanks! Learned something new today. I have already a local copy of texmf.cnf, but only to set main_memory.
 
12:58 PM
This is pdfTeX, Version 3.14159265-2.6-1.40.18 (TeX Live 2017/Debian) (preloaded format=pdflatex)
restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./1.tex
LaTeX2e <2017-04-15>
Babel <3.18> and hyphenation patterns for 3 language(s) loaded.
(/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/article.cls
Document Class: article 2014/09/29 v1.4h Standard LaTeX document class
(/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/size12.clo))

! LaTeX Error: File `filecontents.sty' not found.

Type X to quit or <RETURN> to proceed,
I don't know how to get filecontents.sty
 
1:24 PM
@PrabhjotSingh with an upstream texlive that would be tlmgr install filecontents that may work with the debian packaged one but I think you might need apt-get something where something is the debian package containing that (I forget how to look that up in debian)
 
2:01 PM
@DavidCarlisle apt-cache search somestring.
Well, for strings in the package description. If searching for files, use apt-file.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:02 PM
It seems that Herbert left this site.
3
 
user131753
I am using book class for writing my thesis. It has several parts I want my document to be numbered only after I write the mainmatter and I want to suppress the page number on the page where the parts are introduced. How can it be done?
 
Just wondering if this site is the best place for tex.stackexchange.com/questions/481892/…
Other possible places are U&L and Emacs. Opinions?
It's possible the problem doesn't have much to do with TeX. At least directly.
@TheInventorofGod How so?
 
@FaheemMitha His profile is gone
 
@PauloCereda Oh. What about his answers? And questions, if any.
 
@FaheemMitha They now have a generic username.
 
3:13 PM
@PauloCereda I see. And what triggered this?
 
@FaheemMitha no idea...
 
3:36 PM
I'm facing a problem with the density plot, for e.g
`ListDensityPlot[
 Table[Sin[j^2 + i], {i, 0, Pi, 0.02}, {j, 0, Pi, 0.02}],
 PlotLegends -> Automatic]`
 
@FaheemMitha Might be better to send it to the auctex mailing list. But I'd also say I do not understand that use case.
 
@daleif Not much to understand, really.
Are you an Emacs user?
 
@FaheemMitha I don't understand the need to run LaTeX from within LaTeX.
 
@user170039 -- Every LaTeX run will renumber everything, so you shouldn't be concerned about that. As for omitting page numbers on \part pages, the amsbook class does that automatically, so maybe you can adapt the technique from that.
 
@FaheemMitha for everything but email and internet browsing
 
3:42 PM
@daleif If you use Emacs, you could see whether you can get the same lockup I describe.
@FaheemMitha Ok.
 
But then again I hardly ever compile LaTeX from within emacs. I tend to use latexmk for everytihng
 
@daleif Do you write LaTeX in Emacs?
 
Plus my setup is hardly common
@FaheemMitha sure, but run latexmk in the background outside emacs
 
@daleif It's quite common to use AUCTeX, so one doesn't have to keep switching back and forth.
 
@FaheemMitha I use auctex for all my latex editing, just not for compiling the document, there are more convenient ways.
 
3:45 PM
@daleif Oh.
AUCTeX isn't particularly good at it, I'll grant you that.
It quickly gets confused.
Anyway, compilation is just C-c C-c, if you want to test the MWE.
 
it runs similar to latexmk -pdf -pvc -synctex=1 -halt-on-error -file-line-error file.tex
this runs as a kind of deamon, never stops, compiles every time I save, automatically runs several times if needed, runs biber, bibtex, makeindex, makeglossaries etc.
Stops at the first error if there are any
I don't have the same auctex version you do. We saw some bad errors in one of the 12 release, so I'm not in a hurry
 
@L.K. Oh I think this is a Mathematica code, isn't it? I am afraid we (the TeX.sx chat) cannot help you much...
% arara: pdflatex: { files: [ myfile1.tex, myfile2.tex ] }
% arara: pdflatex
...
:)
 
Here is a little challange for the room. Explain this behavior from beamer:
\documentclass{beamer}
\begin{document}
\newcommand\Test{%
\begin{beamercolorbox}[wd=\textwidth]{frametitle}
\begin{minipage}[t]{5cm}
\fboxsep=0pt%
\fbox{\begin{minipage}[t]{\dimexpr \linewidth-2pt\relax}%
\raggedright%
\usebeamerfont{frametitle}%
\strut \insertframetitle \strut\par
\end{minipage}}
\par\vskip2mm
\rule{1cm}{1mm}%
\end{minipage}
\end{beamercolorbox}
\bigskip
distance between rule and box depends on whether the frame title is
one or two lines. Why?
}
\begin{frame}
\frametitle{Test}
Why does the space after the framed minipage depend on whether there is one or two lines in the minipage
 
@TheInventorofGod Do you know why he left?
 
@daleif Sounds handy, but can you view errors from within Emacs?
@daleif We?
 
3:55 PM
He didn't let his account floating freely, like Medina. He deleted his account.
 
@FaheemMitha No, not really. Was looking into that at one point, but I don't really need it. The error already tells be the file and line number.
 
@daleif So you see the error on the console?
@JouleV Deleting is a strange thing to do.
Completely unnecessary.
 
@FaheemMitha A student came by with emacs+auctex. He has the latest emacs + latest auctex and was getting errors. Downgrading to the emacs+auctex stored on CTAN worked just fine
 
@daleif Yes, I've had problems with AUCTeX before. Particularly the Debian package.
 
@FaheemMitha yes. I have a full screen terminal running. On top of that a full width 90% height emacs
 
3:58 PM
The maintainer is completely unresponsive. So I stopped using the AUCTeX Debian package.
At least for now.
@daleif I see. Big screen?
 
@FaheemMitha that is why I have my entire emacs setup under version control and does not install emacs packages via the email package manager.
@FaheemMitha Depends on desktop or laptop
 
@daleif email package manager?
 
emacs package manager
 
@daleif Ah. So how do you install it?
 
auctex?
Download it from their website and tell emacs where to find it.
 
cis
4:02 PM
Hello, my friends. Situation: "I met Adelina last week." or something like a general situation in which I met Adelina (for the first time).

What is correct?

"When I meet sweet Adelina, she sings the Boola."

or

"When I met sweet Adelina, she sang the Boola."

or both?
 
@cis Both are possible correct: depends what you are trying to say
 
@JouleV I don't know. But in my investigation some PSTricks experts left this site prior to Herbert. It might be a domino effect. :-)
 
Ahh, that took me a while, it is not beamer related, it is minipage related
\documentclass{article}
\parindent=0pt
\begin{document}
\newcommand\Test[1]{%
\begin{minipage}[t]{10cm}
\begin{minipage}[t]{5cm}
\fboxsep=0pt%
\fbox{\begin{minipage}[t]{\dimexpr \linewidth-2pt\relax}%
\strut #1 \strut\par
\end{minipage}}
\par\vskip2mm
\rule{1cm}{1mm}%
\end{minipage}
\end{minipage}
\par\bigskip
}
\Test{Test}
\Test{Test\\Line two}
\end{document}
 
4:22 PM
@daleif Oh. So not Elpa, then.
 
cis
@JosephWright Ok, thx.
 
@FaheemMitha I've never tried it, so I'm sure it is ok. Since my setup is very important for my job, I'd rather have full control.
 
@daleif Fair enough.
It's probably possible to run latexmk inside Emacs. Though Emacs doesn't particularly play nice with command line stuff.
 
@TheInventorofGod What a pitty!
 
@cis first means each time you meet she sings, the second means that on the first occasion that you met, she sang.
@daleif \lineskip I would guess
 
4:30 PM
@DavidCarlisle but why is it different in the two cases?
 
@daleif I'm just testing it but in the first case baselineskip can be preserved but the second case the depth of the box is already more than baselineskip so it will use \lineskip (I am guessing, will confirm in a sec...)
 
@TheInventorofGod In the Secret Room, I learned that chishimutoji (or Trong Vuong) is going to Asymptote. What's going wrong with PSTricks?
 
I think you're right. It looks fine if the framed minipage is aligned at the bottom instead
 
@daleif first case
.......\glue 5.69054
.......\glue(\parskip) 0.0
.......\glue(\baselineskip) 5.15471
second
..............\kern 0.0
.............\glue 0.0
............\rule(*+*)x0.4
...........\rule(0.4+0.0)x*
........\penalty 10000
........\glue(\parfillskip) 0.0 plus 1.0fil
........\glue(\rightskip) 0.0
.......\glue 5.69054
.......\glue(\parskip) 0.0
.......\glue(\lineskip) 1.0
@daleif as I guessed :-)
 
So assuming [t] is there any way to get them to give the same result?
 
4:39 PM
@daleif this is the problem that xgalley solves (by being incompatible with everything) but short of that the usual way is to add a \strut at the end of the parbox and then use \nointerlineskip before the next thing so it never uses lineskip or baselineskip and you rely on the struts to give even spacing
 
@DavidCarlisle that is the macro I had never heard of and was missing.
This bug has been bugging me since noon
 
@daleif probably enough just to use \nointerlineskip\rule... here.
 
Just using \par\nointerlineskip\vskip...\rule... which now works as it should.
Thanks a lot
First you design to the examples given. And then you redesign to make it more suitable for LaTeX users.
 
4:56 PM
@TheInventorofGod He's the third top user who signed off recently, I think there is a problem
 
@CarLaTeX Who else are you thinking of?
 
@JosephWright Christian Hupfer and jfbu (I think this was the nick name)
 
@CarLaTeX Christian I think has taken a break from all social media, etc.
 
@JosephWright He was disappointed, recently, I think it's not only that, the reason
 
@CarLaTeX Hmm, could be
 
5:07 PM
I don't suppose any of you have experiance making roleplaying game character sheets in LaTeX?
 
@JouleV Chishimotoji has been interested in Asymptote to replace PSTricks for many months in addition to he might worry there will be no more PSTricks experts that can help his problems in the future.
 
@PauloCereda Oops, wrong place, thanks
 
@L.K. Oh no worries! I think there's at least one Mathematica user who occasionally hangs out in here, but it's been a while... I think he is a resident of the Mathematica chat as well...
 
cis
@DavidCarlisle OK, I understand.

The original text is: "When I meet sweet Adelina, then she sings her Boola song."
I understand this in this kind: I will meet Adelina and then she will sing her Boola song and this will happen in the future (!).
 
@PauloCereda It's you the resident one, I guess? lol
 
5:20 PM
@L.K. Not me, although I use Mathematica once in a while. :)
 
@cis yes
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh Boola
 
@cis you could say "when I met @PauloCereda I had roast duck" but you can't say "when I meet @PauloCereda I have roast duck" as there are unlikely to be any future meetings after the first:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle oh no
@AlanMunn ^^ he's being linguistically mean
 
cis
@DavidCarlisle @DavidCarlisle I thought it would have been more romantic, if it had been a story from the past. But then also the rhyme scheme will flute.
 
cis
5:56 PM
Let's have romantic TikZ:
 
@cis BATTLEMAPS?
 
cis
@Canageek @Canageek Uh? What's that? A game?
 
@cis At one point Dungeons and Dragons (and similar games) used hex grids for outdoor combat and mapping.
 
@JosephWright in beamer, the default font is cmss. where are the declarefontshape or whatever normally goes into an fd file for cmss?
I'm using some very custom font sizes, and keep getting hit by
LaTeX Font Warning: Font shape `T1/cmss/bx/n' in size <18.92099> not available
(Font) size <17.28> substituted on input line 604.
 
cis
@Canageek Yes, maybe you can use that tikzpictures for the outdoor combat etc.
 
6:02 PM
even though I am running fix-cm
ohh, beamerbasefont.sty is resetting them to be discrete. Sigh
Issue filed
 
6:27 PM
@cis Most users would have expected a duck and a heart from "Let's have romantic TikZ:".
 
cis
@marmot Oh no, I only have sexangles...
 
6:44 PM
@daleif \RequirePackage{fix-cm} ought to avoid that?
@daleif ah:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle only if placed in the preamble. Before document class, it seems the data in beamerbasefont.sty overrides it
%\RequirePackage{fix-cm}
\documentclass{beamer}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage{fix-cm}
\begin{document}
\begin{frame}

\fontsize{8mm}{10mm}\selectfont

test
\end{frame}
\end{document}
 
yes it's tricky actually, if you load it last then unused font declarations get set to the scalable ones, but any that have been used for typesetting already (eg in test sbox'es) will be frozen with the original settings, so we normally recommend loading fix-cm early but if a package redefines the redefinitions, you lose...
 
user image
6
 
@DavidCarlisle hince me filling an issue on github
@marmot nice
 
 
2 hours later…
8:31 PM
I got a new palindrome:
user image
5
 
9:30 PM
How to create spacing between images in a figure environment?
the images that I'm using are too close together and need a little spacing
 
@baxx images have no space rules at all, they are just like a big letter, so spaced the same way, you can use \hspace or whatever
 
@DavidCarlisle Heiko said you broke ifpdf.sty - it no longer works with initex.
 
@UlrikeFischer shrug, doesn't it? why would anyone load it in initex?I'll test and fix though:-)
 
9:46 PM
@DavidCarlisle well he seems to do it ;-) Not quite sure why - seems to be faster to test something.
@DavidCarlisle but he mentioned it only in passing, and I assume he can work around the problem ;-)
 
So, does anyone know what determines the coordinate system one sees on a TeX file?
I mean, if one draws a grid, for example.
 
@FaheemMitha ?
 
@DavidCarlisle Suppose one puts a grid on a page, like using TikZ.
Then the zero of the coordinate system is going to be a particular place, for example.
What determines that?
I'm actually also not sure it's always in the same relative place.
 
@FaheemMitha well it's tikz you can draw lines any distance apart starting at the current point. I think you can refer the bottom of the page but otherwise a each tikzpicture has its own coordinate origin
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh, it does? But what does it default to?
I mean, assuming you don't set anything.
 
10:02 PM
@FaheemMitha I'll let others answer about tikz but I'm not sure the question is well defined.
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh.
 
@FaheemMitha At the current position.
 
@marmot The current position? Suppose the page has nothing but a tikzpicture on it?
And no coordinate directions? I guess I could post an MWE or something.
 
@FaheemMitha it is the same as asking were does a get typeset,
 
Though something like this should have an answer already.
 
10:03 PM
@FaheemMitha Yes, I answered above. ;-)
 
@DavidCarlisle If there's nothing on the page but an "a", wouldn't that have a well-defined answer?
@marmot And where is the current position to start with?
 
@FaheemMitha tikzpictures, \includegraphics, \mbox, are all just boxes, they are just added at the current point
 
@DavidCarlisle On a new page, where is the current point? Top left?
 
Hello to every human (and non-human too :P)
 
@FaheemMitha in initex the current point is 1 inch from the top and 1in from the left but in latex, margins and things are set up by the document class, so it depends
 
10:05 PM
How would you write "Distance" symbol? I found this:
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh, I see. I didn't realise that.
 
9
Q: How to write Euclidean distance

TejaHow would one implement Euclidean distance in LaTeX. Please some one help me. Here is the below link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_distance

 
I mean, that it was customized.
 
I would use \DeclareMathOperator{\dist}{dist}, are you agree?
 
Look e.g. at https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/481923/121799, there you find `\hfill{\tikz[remember picture,overlay]{\coordinate(R);
\draw[very thick,green!80!black] (M.east) -- (M.east-|R);
}}` which I use to draw a horizontal line to the rightmost place in the current box. `\hfill` brings me there and then the coordinate `(0,0)` is at the current position (where text would appear if I were to put one using @DavidCarlisle words).
@FaheemMitha ^^^
 
10:06 PM
@marmot So, to be clear, the origin is set at the current position? Or did you mean something else?
 
@FaheemMitha if you use \documentclas[a4paper] or \documentclass[twocolunn,landscape] or ...
 
@FaheemMitha Yes.
 
@DavidCarlisle Or KOMA-script?
@marmot Ok, thank you.
@marmot Looking.
 
@FaheemMitha well anything, at all of fancyhdr or just adding \setlength\topmargin{3cm} or ...
 
Ok
@marmot I don't see a (0,0) in that image.
Or maybe I misunderstood you.
I see lines radiating out from a central point. And letters A and B.
 
10:10 PM
@FaheemMitha Yes, because \coordinate(R) is equivalent to \coordinate(R) at (0,0); is equivalent to \path (0,0) coordinate(R);. (Remember that I wrote the code before you asked the question ;-) (There is also a bonus \hfill for @Sebastiano, just see it now... ;-)
@FaheemMitha If you write in an ordinary document David\hfill Duck\par then David will be left and Duck will be as right as it can be. This is used as a trick to make the line have the full width the caption would have had if @Sebastiano wanted one.
 
@marmot The bottom line is that (0,0) could be all over the place, assuming on the position of the TikZ figure on the page?
 
@FaheemMitha Yes and no, depending on what you precisely mean. If you mean that you can always arrange (0,0) to be where you want it to be, yes, and if you want to say that the origin is random, then no.
 
@marmot David would probably another trick to get the duck nearer:
\documentclass{article}
\parfillskip=0.8\textwidth
\begin{document}
David \hfill Duck
\end{document}
 
@marmot No, I didn't mean the origin was random.
 
@UlrikeFischer No, you are missing the fact that David drives on the left side of the road whereas Ducks tend to be more careful.
 
10:18 PM
I meant that the location is inherently variable, based on various factors.
 
@FaheemMitha Then yes. ;-)
 
So not in a specific position. Like upper left, say.
 
@FaheemMitha not the way to think about it, you are asking about the reference point for a specific tikzpicture, that is always at the same place just as all tex boxes have s single fixed reference point (left edge, at the baseline). but every tex box (and every tikz picture) has its own reference point,
 
@FaheemMitha Yes. (You can arrange for that, of course. \tikz[overlay,remember picture,shift={(current page.north west)}]{...}`)
 
@DavidCarlisle The reference point for a particular TikZ picture depends on where the TikZ picture is being drawn, presumably.
I mean where the reference point is relative to the entire page.
So, depending on where the TikZ picture is being drawn, that could be anywhere on the page.
@DavidCarlisle I'm not sure what you mean by "left edge, at the baseline".
 
10:25 PM
@FaheemMitha I would never describe it that way. An image has a bottom edge and a left edge, and those edges define a coordinate system for that image you can of course put an image anywhere.
 
@DavidCarlisle Is a TikZ picture an image? I thought it was more like a box.
 
@FaheemMitha a tex box is defined by three numbers, width, height, depth, so the reference point is always on the left edge of the baseline
@FaheemMitha images are boxes, makes no difference
 
@DavidCarlisle So the baseline is like the bottom part?
 
@FaheemMitha ^^ to tex, every letter, every box, every image, looks like the above it has a reference point (circled) and three lengths, height, depth, width.
 
@DavidCarlisle Is the red line the baseline?
Thank you, that's a very helpful picture.
 
10:32 PM
@marmot I don't know what you're talking about. :-) @FaheemMitha
 
If if that is correct, then the baseline is not at the absolute edge of the box, but a little way above it.
 
In the meantime, good evening, everyone.
 
Presumably with a view to typesetting.
 
@FaheemMitha by definition yes, tex boxes don't really have a baseline just a reference point. in horizontal mode boxes are stacked by putting boxes such that their reference points are at same line so a baselien is formed
 
@Sebastiano Hey
 
10:33 PM
@Sebastiano It is not important. I was trying to explain where tikz puts the origin using the answer to your question.
 
@FaheemMitha Hi with the kissing hand :-)
 
@FaheemMitha yes that is why boxes have three lengths width depth and height. but note they don't have left and right, just width so the reference point is always at the left edge
 
@DavidCarlisle But the reference point is at a fixed relative distance from the bottom? Or so it looks like.
 
@DavidCarlisle @marmot Always thank you for your answers and suggestions.
 
@DavidCarlisle Don't have left and right? Not sure what you mean.
 
10:35 PM
I still have to write some homework for my students' written tests: see the graph
 
And is all this stuff documented in the TeX book?
 
Good night everyone
 
@Sebastiano ?
 
@FaheemMitha Tell me.
 
Oh, and is a page just another example of a box, with a baseline and so forth?
 
10:37 PM
@FaheemMitha no. a "box" is just three numbers, height depth and width. so the bottom is depth below teh reference point.
 
@Sebastiano "kissing hand"?
@DavidCarlisle Oh, I see.
 
@FaheemMitha Are you man or woman :-(?
 
And a page is an example of a box?
@Sebastiano Male.
Sometimes people think Faheem is a female name, though I'm not sure where they get that from.
Maybe it's all those e's.
Kissing hand sounds vaguely European. Possibly Germanic.
 
@FaheemMitha a rectangle abstractly is the same along the bottom edge or up the sides, but tex boxes do not treat the dimensions in the same way, horizontally they have a single length, "width", but vertically they have two lengths, "height" and "depth"
 
@DavidCarlisle And height and depth are relative to the baseline?
 
10:39 PM
@FaheemMitha Excuse me :-(:-( ....That bad figure
Good night
 
@Sebastiano Take care.
 
@FaheemMitha you might think of it that way, but not really. a box simply is three numbers height depth and width, together with a reference point, so the baseline is defined by aligning boxes by their reference points.
 
@DavidCarlisle Not super-intuitive.
 
@FaheemMitha computers work with numbers, not geometric shapes:-)
 
@FaheemMitha It's a common salutation in Sicily, typically to a superior: “baciamo le mani”.
 
10:42 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, but humans live in a three dimensional world, so we like dimensions.
@egreg I see.
 
@FaheemMitha You might have heard it in “The Godfather” movies.
 
@FaheemMitha Wrong.
 
@egreg I don't think I've ever watched those. I've heard of them, of course.
 
@FaheemMitha but you are asking what a computer program does, not what humans and marmots do
 
@FaheemMitha We live in a spacetime of at least 4 dimensions.
 
10:43 PM
The phrase "go to the mattresses", for example.
 
@marmot i thought you lived in a burrow.
 
@DavidCarlisle Sure. It's just hard to interpret abstract numbers.
@marmot That's just a construct. I believe in dimensions I can see.
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, but it is embedded in a spacetime of at least 4 dimensions.
 
I assume those are not literal "mattresses".
So this (0,0) coordinate system being on the left edge is laid down in the TeXbook?
 
@FaheemMitha well tex boxes just have a reference point of course tikz is layered on that but could have corordinates wherever it wants, latex picture mode for example has \begin{picture}(100,200)(10,20) to allow the origin of its coordinate system to be offset by (10,20) from the default bottom left position
 
10:52 PM
@DavidCarlisle Well, ok. Just wondering where the default origin is for TikZ pictures. At this reference point?
@DavidCarlisle So that (100,200)(10,20) is the default?
 
@FaheemMitha yes but that is tautologous, reference point, and default origin, mean the same thing more or less.
 
I apologize for trying to make the number mean something geometrical. Just the way my brain is set up.
@DavidCarlisle default origin in the sense that's where a grid would show an origin.
 
@FaheemMitha if you omit the second pair they default to (0,0) and the picture mode corrdinates have (0,0) at the bottom left of the picture.
 
@DavidCarlisle Omit the second pair? You mean (10,20)?
I thought you said those "were" the default.
 
@FaheemMitha yes, normally the syntax is \begin{picture}(50,60) which makes a 50pt by 60pt rectangular picture with \put(0,0){...} being the bottom left.
 
10:58 PM
@DavidCarlisle I see. So the second pair is optional, and defaults to the "reference point"?
 
@FaheemMitha not really, but i stop:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle Ok.
 
@FaheemMitha tikz simply starts somewhere when you draw and adjusts the bounding box. If you do something like \tikz\draw(100,100)--(101,101); then you get a rather small picture with the baseline at the 100. But you can change this.
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{tikz}

\begin{document}

baseline\fbox{\tikz\draw(100,100)--(101,101);}

baseline\fbox{\tikz[baseline={(102,102)}]\draw(100,100)--(101,101);}

\end{document}
 
Hmm, my browers are being rather unstable.
@UlrikeFischer So, if the first box has baseline at 100, that's relative to what coordinate system? The page?
 
11:15 PM
@FaheemMitha no that is simply an internal tikz coordinate. I could also have used 200, or -30. When you start to draw tikz simply computes the bounding box so that the content is in the box and normally the baseline is at the bottom unless you change it.
 
@UlrikeFischer The baseline is at the bottom of the tikz picture?
 
@FaheemMitha that's what I just wrote.
 
And that has the same meaning as David referred to earlier? In the sense of a box having three numbers?
 
@FaheemMitha yes, from the outside the picture is a simple box, and is alignment is decided by the position of the baseline.
 
@UlrikeFischer And will reading the TeX book (hypothetically) help in understanding this?
I suppose it must start with the description of a box. Since that sounds like a basic construct.
Start as in, early on.
 
11:40 PM
What a pity, I missed possible palindrome (40004). Why is there no possibility to earn 1 rep?
 

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