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5:49 AM
@Kurt You could downvote 9 times :)
 
 
2 hours later…
7:54 AM
@CarLaTeX Well, that would be a bad job for the downvoted with no reason. I have not done much downvotes ... And for that reason I will not do that! But thanks for the tip :-)
 
8:23 AM
@Kurt I assure you that there are answers which deserve downvoting :) However, I rarely downvote, too!
 
8:38 AM
user image
3
I love the 747s, and I am having 8,747 rep ;)
 
@FaheemMitha Boxes are described in chapter 11. But they will be mentioned many other places in the text.
@FaheemMitha It is allegedly possible to live a good life without ever having read the TeXbook. But I wouldn't know, as I haven't tried it.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Of the TeXbook? And is it comprehensible/useful?
@HaraldHanche-Olsen You haven't tried not reading the TeXbook?
 
@FaheemMitha I find it quite comprehensive, yes. It describes TeX pretty much in detail. Much more detail than you're likely to need, in fact. And yes, if you wish to understand the more subtle points of TeX, it is indispensible. Possibly, you might want to start with Victor Eijkhout's TeX by Topic, though. It is quite terse, though, as it is really intended for readers who already know the fundamentals.
@FaheemMitha I was joking. Clearly, there was a time before I read it. But, I did read it long before I had access to a working TeX system. I figured here was the future, and it turned out I was right.
 
8:54 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen What is quite terse? TeX by Topic?
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Long before? Seriously?
I guess for a mathematician the TeXbook is no big deal...
 
@FaheemMitha Yes. But not impossibly so, I think. It fits my own writing style, so I like it; but some others find my writing impossibly terse.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I see. What are the pros/cons of TeX by Topic vs the TeXbook?
Lack of excessive detail? Covering only the important points?
 
@FaheemMitha Yes. I was a university student at the time, and computer resources were scarce.
 
@FaheemMitha for many the fact that tex by topic is (now) free makes a difference...
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I see. Still brave of you. Not to mention, enterprising.
@DavidCarlisle That's certainly a consideration. Especially if one happens to be in India.
 
8:58 AM
@DavidCarlisle quack
 
@PauloCereda bit early in the morning for dinner, but I do have a freezer...
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I was in Cambridge once. Where I was refused an email account. (Not kidding.)
They weren't yet giving it away at the time.
 
@FaheemMitha I was in Cambridge for 2 years and didn't have a computer account...
 
@DavidCarlisle Did you want one?
 
@FaheemMitha Email wasn't even invented when I was a student.
 
8:59 AM
@DavidCarlisle oh no
 
@FaheemMitha I had no access to a computer so an account would not have been that useful...
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I thought it had been around since the 70s. Perhaps not widely used.
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh papyruses
 
@DavidCarlisle What about University computer labs/facilities?
 
@FaheemMitha they allegedly existed, but I never saw one.
 
9:01 AM
@DavidCarlisle Oh.
 
@FaheemMitha Oh, you're right, my bad. But it was unheard of where I was.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Ok.
 
@FaheemMitha The TeXbook has jokes; TbT does not. (I think.)
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Hmm. But are they good jokes?
I have heard rumors of lions. I may even have seen some.
In the TeXbook, I mean.
 
And the TeXbook contains stuff like a detailed description of how math is built, which TbT does not.
@FaheemMitha There are indeed lions. I think many of the jokes are funny, but they alone do not justify getting the book. They do liven it up a bit, though.
 
9:06 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Ah.
I glanced at an article recently which criticized Knuth's handling of fonts, which the author thought was wacky. (That wasn't the term he used.)
I don't recall the details, of course. I probably didn't even really understand them.
 
@FaheemMitha From a modern perspective, the criticism is probably right. But given the state of computing at the time, what he did is not so unreasonable, I think.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Ok.
 
@FaheemMitha For sure, Knuth could hardly have known about unicode …
 
Yes, that was a long time ago.
 
9:22 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Are you implying Knuth is not an omniscient being? This scatters my whole believe system :)
 
@samcarter Omniscient in both space and time, apparently.
 
@samcarter Uh, blasphemy, I know …
 
9:42 AM
So Knuth is a Time Lord?
 
@FaheemMitha The time part is easy, just set \date{...} appropriately :)
@FaheemMitha I suspect Joseph Wright is a Time Lord
@HaraldHanche-Olsen You can make up for the blasphemy by compiling xii.tex ten times :)
 
10:28 AM
@samcarter Can I write a loop to do it, or must I rerun the command each time? And if the latter, is it ok to use the shell's history mechanism? (Up arrow, return.)
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen It still counts if the loop is written in tex :)
 
 
2 hours later…
12:02 PM
@samcarter ↓↓↓
⬥ cat cxx.tex
\def\xii{\begingroup \expandafter\let\csname bye\endcsname\eject\input xii \endgroup}
\newcount\x \x=10
\loop \xii \advance\x-1 \ifnum\x>0 \repeat
\bye
4
 
 
2 hours later…
2:05 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen A more modern implementation
\input expl3-generic

\ExplSyntaxOn
\cs_new:Npn \xiirep #1
 {
  \prg_replicate:nn { #1 }
   {
    \group_begin:
    \cs_set:cpn { bye } { \vfill\eject }
    \file_input:n { xii }
    \group_end:
   }
 }
\ExplSyntaxOff

\xiirep{10}

\bye
 
2:18 PM
@egreg, @HaraldHanche-Olsen: brilliant code this xii thingy, isn't it? :)
 
2:35 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen By the way, I love the special touch in the filename. :)
For those who didn't notice it, XII . X = CXX
 
@PauloCereda Glad someone noticed.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen we ducks are good at maths. :)
 
@PauloCereda Especially with Roman numerals?
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen average. :)
 
@egreg Why is the modern variant so much longer than the traditional one? ;-)
 
2:48 PM
@marmot Just wait for @DavidCarlisle to come up with an obfuscated version in xii characers.
@egreg Do you also have to do penance, or is this pre-emptive action? (Can one do penance first, and sin with impunity later?)
 
ooh a Lent task
 
@PauloCereda 5911
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh the counter
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh a naughty counter
 
3:02 PM
Meanwhile, the Wall Street Journal reports: Appl Still Hasn’t Fixd Its MacBook Kyboad Problm.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Very nice! All blasphemy is forgiven and a place in the TeX heaven is reserved for you!
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen In the best Apple traditions, one has to pay to read. Very fitting.
 
3:19 PM
@FaheemMitha hm?
 
3:35 PM
@PauloCereda The WSJ online article.
 
@FaheemMitha Really? I could read it without any restriction...
 
@PauloCereda Huh.
I get: TO READ THE FULL STORY {SUBSCRIBE|SIGN IN}
 
@FaheemMitha Interesting! Well, I have uBlock on Firefox, perhaps it's blocking something related to a subscription...
 
@PauloCereda I've got an ad blocker running too. But I don't think they work that way.
 
@FaheemMitha Hm maybe some IP-based restriction then?
 
3:39 PM
@PauloCereda Might be a country thing.
 
@FaheemMitha Ah could be.
 
4:02 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen that's quite hard to read...
 
@Skillmon Why is it hard to read?
 
@FaheemMitha because every occurrence of the letters "e" and "r" is removed.
 
@FaheemMitha There are some switches along the article that enable/disable some letters, as to simulate the problem related with the keyboards.
 
@Skillmon Wow. Seriously?
 
@FaheemMitha yep, to show non-Apple-users the pain of the keyboards.
 
4:08 PM
@PauloCereda How helpful.
 
@Skillmon Sharing the pain, apparently.
 
@PauloCereda those must have been blocked by my script blockers.
 
@Skillmon ooh
 
@PauloCereda Well, I'd turn on the E's and R's. Not a sentence I ever expected to write, but...
 
4:23 PM
@PauloCereda I see no sharks in the tikzlings package, so I guess it would have been safe... :)
 
4:38 PM
@mickep ooh
@samcarter can we have a tikzshark, please?
Das Shark
 
yo'
@PauloCereda well, we definitely need a tikzgaroo.
 
@yo' ooh
 
@marmot A bit longer, but much neater. :-P
 
@egreg Yes, the Hollywood movies also tended to be shorter back in the old days. The newer ones have a lot of fancy stuff and are usually a bit longer. So it is all consistent. ;-)
 
yo'
I'm afraid that "leave the English way" ("partir à l’anglaise") will not mean what it has meant any more.
@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle ^^
 
4:48 PM
@marmot Film stocks tended to be very expensive. ;-)
 
@egreg Yes. It is so much more cost intensive to entertain the crowd. I am looking forward to the first movie on expl3. ;-)
 
@marmot It will be released together with LaTeX3 or just a bit later.
 
@egreg Hmmmh. Back in the old millennium I was told that LaTeX3 will be released in a few years. That was a good prediction, it is still true today. ;-)
 
ooh IMAX
 
anybody know an approximate date for latex3 "official" release as a substitute for latex2e?
I mean, cause as far as I know now it's on "beta"
 
5:03 PM
@mariogarcc the last official announcement of a date was here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/49676921#49676921
 
5:19 PM
It is like I am a grad student again ... I am reformating a manuscript from author-year in text citations to a numeric style. In author-year I wrote \cite{ArticleByStrongbadAndTheCheat} and \cite{ArticleByHomestarRunnerAndStrongbad}. With a numeric style should I write Strongbad and colleagues \cite{ArticleByStrongbadAndTheCheat, ArticleByHomestarRunnerAndStrongbad} or something else?
 
@UlrikeFischer Official?
 
@FaheemMitha sure, it is an announcement from a LaTeX Team member, ... ;-)
 
@StrongBad ooh
 
@UlrikeFischer Well, a joke from a LaTeX Team member. British humour, to be precise.
 
@PauloCereda it makes me feel young
 
5:27 PM
@PauloCereda in Deutsch: Der Hai :-)
 
@Kurt ooh hai
 
5:44 PM
@UlrikeFischer hmmm... :(
 
Der LaTeX Hai
 
cis
Test
 
6:27 PM
Does anybody want to suggest a name for a package that is similar to pgfmoduleparser.code.tex but extends the functionality a lot?
I thought of qhgparser, which is like pgfparser but three steps ahead, but I don't think that's a good name :)
 
@PauloCereda Could be an idea for tikzlings: shark with the lion or TeX on it ...
 
cis
7:20 PM
Last Test
 
7:58 PM
Good evening....
@Kurt Dear Kurt, I think with such sincerity, considering your comment, that my question will have to be eliminated because as you wrote you may have problems for special cases. I always renew my idea that I do not care about any score but learn and learn from all those who are correct with me.
 
8:50 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- Late to the party, I know, but ... TeX was in existence by 1979, when Knuth described it in his invited Gibbs Lecture at the AMS annual meeting in January of that year. The germ of Unicode didn't surface until 1987, and the Unicode Consortium wasn't in existence until 1991. Before that, "standard encodings" were defined by various ISO standards; ISO 646 defined ASCII, for instance. Work on a more comprehensive standard, ISO 10646, began in the late 1980s, (cont'd)
(cont'd) and Unicode was a competitor. The first draft of iSO 10646 was voted down, and Unicode adherents came forward to offer their work to take its place. As it happens, I attended one of the working group meetings where this was discussed. (I was active on an ISO working group on document processing at the time.) In 1991, a "compromise" was achieved, and Unicode work became the basis for the overhauled ISO 10646. Additions to Unicode are now passed on to the ISO 10646 working group.
 
@Sebastiano As far as I see the accepted answer has the same issue, but I did not test it ... I think there is no need to delete your answer.
 
9:08 PM
@barbarabeeton Thanks for the history lesson. I was very far from the center of things at the time, but as far as I recall, one of the controversies was about whether 32 bits was necessary (ISO 10616) or whether 16 bits was enough (Unicode). And so far, it seems that just a bit more than 16 bits is required, so neither side to the controversy was completely on target.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen 7 bits should be plenty, really.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- If they keep adding emoticons, 32 bits may not be enough ...
 
@barbarabeeton Right. There a combinatorics explosion going on: Every emoticon has to appear with multiple skin tones, who know how many genders, not to mention hair styles and religious affiliations. But seriously, many of those variants are handled by combining characters, aren't they?
@DavidCarlisle In my neighbourhood, we use funny letters like æøå that don't quite fit into ASCII.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- One would think the variants should be handled by combining characters, but I generally avoid emoticons, so don't know.
 
@DavidCarlisle The multitude of 8-bit encodings for European languages was a real pain in the posterior.
@DavidCarlisle Ergo Brexit?
 
9:16 PM
@barbarabeeton Is Knuth taking any interest in TeX now?
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen so did we once (something about some visitors we had from the east:-) but we through them all out:-)
 
@FaheemMitha I think that the WSJ gives you a fixed (small) number of free articles each month. Clearly, they need to track you to achieve this goal, most likely by setting a cookie. And this has nothing to do with Apple. (Well, the article has to do with Apple, but it is not their article. It pokes fun at Apple after all.)
 
@FaheemMitha -- DEK will next review submitted bug reports in late 2020, and for each either make an update, accept in concept but declare a "feature", or decline with an explanation. As in past years, I expect that he will prepare a cogent summary for publication in TUGboat. Oh, his name is on the attendees list for the TUG meeting in Palo Alto this summer; though I don't expect him to attend the full program. (I do hope for an "all questions answered" session.)
 
@DavidCarlisle Except some returned, and now you're all set to do again?
 
@barbarabeeton So he's still functional, then.
 
9:24 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen current plan is to stick head in sand and and wait until all words starting B are removed from the language
 
@FaheemMitha -- Yes, but mostly concentrating on the last few volumes of TAOCP.
 
@barbarabeeton Yes. I gather that has been the case for a long time.
 
@DavidCarlisle After which, you can all relax with a nice pint of eer.
 
@DavidCarlisle -- I refuse to be removed from the language!
3
 
@barbarabeeton more beees!
 
9:26 PM
@barbarabeeton You'll be arbara eeton. What a change!
 
@barbarabeeton it's Ok I meant English not a concern of yours, I believe.
 
@UlrikeFischer -- Hmmm. Is there a nice fat bumblebee among the TikZlings?
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh, I forget – you can have ale instead.
 
@DavidCarlisle -- So you keep telling me.
 
9:28 PM
@barbarabeeton at least you are not building walls along your southern border, oh...
 
@UlrikeFischer What on earth is a tikzling?
 
@UlrikeFischer -- Yes! Thanks for the reminder.
 
@FaheemMitha try texdoc tikzling
 
@DavidCarlisle you are so modern lately ;-)
 
@DavidCarlisle Good heavens.
 
9:31 PM
@UlrikeFischer you were expecting me to explain how to access the aston ctan node via ftp?
@FaheemMitha you may recognise the stackexchange avatars of several regulars in that package...
 
@DavidCarlisle I was expecting you to point out to picduck ;-)
 
@FaheemMitha Does that mean you did not know that package? Did you just return from an interstellar travel? ;-)
 
9:50 PM
@marmot That's a no to both. Sadly, no interstellar travel. I think i"d enjoy a bit of that.
@DavidCarlisle Well, yes to the marmoute.
 
@FaheemMitha Next time you go you could bring the tikzlings package to the aliens.
 
10:18 PM
@marmot Next time?
 
10:29 PM
@FaheemMitha Yes, if do it next-to-next time, you may get scooped. ;-)
 

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