5:10 AM
@DavidCarlisle Oh wow, a palindrome with the right comma position!

1 hour later…
6:42 AM
@DavidCarlisle I would be more impressed if it was a prime. Too bad that your score has 6 digits ;-)

7:37 AM
You must love the hover text here...

@marmot it would be very impressive to have a palindromic prime starting with 4, I agree!

@DavidCarlisle It would be impressive enough if you had a paliprime with 6 digits since except for 11, all palindromic primes have an odd number of digits.

8:12 AM
@CarLaTeX it is not tikzducks, but the tikz picture in the footer.

@DavidCarlisle I think there should have a matching, flipping comma.

@PauloCereda they should use periods or small spaces like every sensible number system ;-)
2

@UlrikeFischer Exactly. :)

8:31 AM
@UlrikeFischer OK, have you seen how popular tikzducks is? :):):)

@CarLaTeX certainly ;-).

Oh no! Someone downvoted me just after reaching 21412!
2

8:45 AM
@CarLaTeX I missed yesterday 161616 because I was so busy ;-(.

8:56 AM
@UlrikeFischer What a pity!

9:13 AM
@UlrikeFischer oh no
@CarLaTeX oh no
@DavidCarlisle ^^

10:05 AM
The best abstracts are short and to the point.
^^ @PauloCereda some useful writing hinta for your thesis :)

@yo' ooh :)

@yo' They should have added and some dummy text to fill up to 15 characters ...

@UlrikeFischer I lol'd
Btw, just got a paper published, yay!

@yo' Yay! Congrats, pal!

I'm tempted to say that this is the most comprehensible to GP of my papers so far...

10:21 AM
@yo' ooh

Btw

@yo' :)

1 hour later…
12:02 PM
Can we assume that all LaTeX dists provides the if<engine> packages? In memoir we have (bad) emulations of one of them is not found, and I'd like to remove these emulations and throw an error if the if<engine> package is not found.

@daleif 'All' is tricky: certainly they are readily-available for TL and MiKTeX

@JosephWright I think that is good enough. Better to force people to have the proper tests than to rely on improper implemented emulations

@daleif Sounds good

2 hours later…
1:48 PM
5

@TeXnician nice :)
@TeXnician: out of curitosity, have you ever tried Apache Pivot?

@PauloCereda Thanks.
@PauloCereda No, what's that?
@PauloCereda Well, judging from its website, which requires a Java browser plugin I unfortunately can't tell anything about it.

2:05 PM
@TeXnician Sadly, they only show the applet thing (which I don't like). It's a GUI toolkit, similar to Swing.
You can have both web and desktop applications, it seems.
@TeXnician: I saw an app built with it and was curious. I was wondering if people are considering it.

@PauloCereda Ah, sounds interesting, but even Wikipedia does not say much about it.

@TeXnician The app I mentioned is this, is case you are curious: devcompack.sourceforge.net

@PauloCereda Sounds interesting.

2:23 PM
@TeXnician Yes. I really liked the application.
Haven't seen the code though.

Hi!
Does anyone happen to know if there is a way/package to make a section in latex collapsible, similar to how Word does it?

@CrowleyAstray That's an editor thing: some have outlining
737

What editors/IDEs are available for easing the process of writing TeX/LaTeX documents? Please state some useful features like code completion, spell checking, building final DVI or PDF files, etc. This question is undergoing a systematic refurbishment, see Let’s polish the Editors/IDEs questi...

@CrowleyAstray Listed as 'Code folding'

@JosephWright and ArTeXmis hopefully nothing

I was actually thinking about them being collapsible in the PDF, I think I saw that in a PDF at one time

@CrowleyAstray Oh, you mean dynamic PDFs

2:29 PM
if that's what they are called ^^
Is there a package that makes LaTeX able to create such output? For lists and such which would take unnecessary space...

@CrowleyAstray Your problem is the PDF itself to start with: I guess you are looking for OCGs, but fully dynamic is extremely tricky

oh, nevermind then, didn't know it was such tricky business! Still thanks for answering me

@CrowleyAstray it might or not involve Javascript, and I am pretty sure it might be an Adobe PDF feature. :)
By that I mean that the trick only works inside Adobe readers. :)

huh, my company uses Adobe PDF, but I still doubt my superiors would be too happy if it would exclusively work there...

@CrowleyAstray Completely understandable. :) My point is that some stuff people put inside PDF files (probably some literals or specials) are only interpreted by a certain vendor.

2:38 PM
@PauloCereda I always shiver with these three keywords at one place.

@yo' me too
I refuse to use Adobe whatever software.

Yea, I already wondered why I haven't seen it before (just recently saw the PDF that used it) and thoght I might use it to increase the legibility of my reports ^^

@PauloCereda do you refuse to use their document formats and fonts as well?

@DavidCarlisle well, (un)fortunately PDF is an ISO thingy nowadays...

@JosephWright your man page works with nroff here:-)
@yo' yes same way as docx is ISO and not microsoft....

2:44 PM
@DavidCarlisle well, if only W@#$were docx-complaint :-/ @yo' it as compliant to its iso standard as acrobat is to its. @DavidCarlisle sure thing. @yo' and longtable meets its spec exactly. @DavidCarlisle well, it's important to meet your specs. But having no specs is importanter. 2:59 PM @PauloCereda OCGs also work reasonably well in Evince. @yo' :) @AlexG Ah my favourite reader. :) David uses apvlv. @DavidCarlisle I will use a longtable tee during TUG 2018. @CrowleyAstray. Unlike HTML, PDF (like TeX) targets paginated content, not continuous one. Thus collapsing cannot work. Pages following collapsed content would have to be re-typeset on the fly. But hiding content or exchanging it with material of the same size can be done using OCGs (PDF Layers). @AlexG ooh @DavidCarlisle, @JosephWright: ^^ beware when crossing the road @DavidCarlisle Phew @DavidCarlisle I tried groff on my Ubuntu VM: 'worked' is stretching it, but I did get a valid PostScript file ... @DavidCarlisle At least for PDF there is a manual describing how things work 3:18 PM @JosephWright eek @PauloCereda You can try it if you like: github.com/latex3/l3build/blob/master/l3build.1 @JosephWright Sorry, I need to focus right now. :) @AlexG thanks for the explanation! I'll have to live without it then ^^ I will be very happy if someone could help me out with this: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/418867/… @CarLaTeX Thanks for the ping! I actually had the very same problem myself once and just decided that externalising isn't worth the trouble to debug it :) 3:31 PM @JosephWright: could you mod ping @Mico about TUG 2018? @Mico See ^^^ @JosephWright Thanks. :) @samcarter oooooooooooooh @samcarter we need a rocket duck! @samcarter: then you can use it as your avatar oooh a space duck @samcarter I checked and it is definitely not a palindrome. 3:40 PM @CrowleyAstray : In case you want to create Layers in your document, use ocgx2 package :) . @PauloCereda Good idea :) However I am not sure about using it as avatar. I once tried with a duck avatar which even had the same colour as my normal one, but somehow I felt strange - like I did not recognise myself any more, which is totally irrational as this is just some drawing that does not even has a face! @DavidCarlisle Good that you are a mathematician! @DavidCarlisle You are wrong. It is a palindrome in base 54321. However, it is not a prime. 3 @marmot touché! @JohnDorian splitting the test document in to disconnected fragments just makes it harder for people to answer. 3:50 PM @samcarter ^^ Probably only @PhelypeOleinik and I will understand it. :) Well, Gonzalo too if he were here. :( @PauloCereda :) looks a bit like Flash - but from the selection of people you mention I assume some South American thingy? @Gonzalo We miss you! @samcarter :):):) @samcarter I will help. :) El Chapulín Colorado (English: The Red Grasshopper or as Captain Hopper in the English version of El Chavo: Animated Series) is a Mexican television comedy series that ran from 1973 to 1979 and parodied superhero shows. It was created by Roberto Gómez Bolaños (Chespirito), who also played the main character. It was first aired by Canal de las Estrellas in 1970 in Mexico, and then was aired across Latin America and Spain until 1981, alongside El Chavo, which shared the same cast of actors. Both shows have endured in re-runs and have won back some of their popularity in several countries such as... @samcarter tikzducks is very used :):):) @samcarter It was a famous Mexican series, very popular in Brazil under the name of Chapolin Colorado. It was a mockup on American superheroes. The name chapulín is a common red grasshopper which lives in Mexico, hence the costume. :) Before I knew Flash, I knew Chapolin. :) 3:56 PM @JohnDorian Use zref to store the various bits and then reassemble them in the various ref-commands. And no I do not have the time to write the code for you. @PauloCereda Oh this sounds very funny! @samcarter it was very, very cheap, almost amateur production, and it was brilliant. I think @PhelypeOleinik can vouch what I am telling, it was a very nice part of my childhood. @UlrikeFischer thank you, I will have a google for zref :-) @JohnDorian Don't google. Either search the docu or search on this site. @DavidCarlisle Thank you for pointing this out. What I don't like about huge code blocks is that I cannot see the code in its entirety on the website. But you are right, it's an extra obstacle for copy-pasting. @UlrikeFischer Well first of all I had to find out that zref is a package. Might as well have been a command provided by cleveref or whatever. 4:16 PM @JohnDorian The first thing to try when someone mentions some unfamiliar TeX-thingy like zref, is to run texdoc -l zref. The second thing is probably to enter the term in the search box on the main site. @HaraldHanche-Olsen Can you explain to a computer analphabet like me how to "run texdoc -l zref"? (Say on windows) @JohnDorian Which OS do you use? (please no Windows no Windows no Windows) @JohnDorian oh sorry I missed that :) Doesn't computer analphabet imply that I am using Windows? ^^ @JohnDorian Mum is computer illiterate and uses Linux. :) @JohnDorian: Do you know how to open the command prompt in Windows? @JohnDorian I'm a total idiot myself on windows, but there is an application called cmd or command or something, that gives you a command line where you can type commands? Like one had to do in the old days, after punched cards went out of fashion. 4:21 PM Yes I think so I remember it's something about running cmd on the run thingy menu icon stuff. Please open it then. :) @JohnDorian Open e.g. a powershell (right click on some folder and hold down the shift key, then you will get it in the menu) then you can type texdoc zref and hit enter. @UlrikeFischer ooh PowerShell @JohnDorian computer analphabet is relative. Like I said, I am one on windows. But not on a bunch of other OSes. @PauloCereda I did 4:22 PM @UlrikeFischer don't some of the tex editors have a menu @PauloCereda the NotAsPowerfullAsBashShell @UlrikeFischer Why no just Win-R? @DavidCarlisle Yes, winedt has one. @PauloCereda It's this black window which makes me think I'm a hacker, right? @PauloCereda you could mention a texdoc website thing @DavidCarlisle Amen to that @JohnDorian YES THAT ONE 4:23 PM @JohnDorian Sounds about right. @JosephWright Because I never can remember the shortcut and google for this takes more time (also it doesnt open the powershell in the folder I normally need it) @DavidCarlisle wow you are clever @JohnDorian: texdoc.net Type zref in the search thingy in that site. Brilliant code, I wonder who wrote that script. @DavidCarlisle ^^ @JohnDorian The powershell is blue (but I'm thinking to change it to black, the colors make me nervous. @PauloCereda it wasn't the bloke who wrote longtable @DavidCarlisle ooh 4:25 PM @PauloCereda you got mail ... @PauloCereda And now? Just type texdoc -l zref ? The command cannot be found. @UlrikeFischer I've never seen the point of PowerShell, probably because the Command Prompt extensions + GOW are pretty useful anyway ... @PauloCereda Well in principle I also know how to find the documentation on ctan, but I would like to understand how to do this on the command prompt. @JohnDorian Try this web thingy instead: texdoc.net @UlrikeFischer replied. :) @JohnDorian So it seems whatever TeX distro you are using doesn't set up search paths properly for the command line. Bad, bad TeX distro. 4:28 PM is this Jan 21 '14 at 12:33, by David Carlisle @NicolaTalbot people who put spaces in filenames deserve no sympathy. the valid answer to @PauloCereda Cool :) 0 I've already tried 10 billion advices like using \usepackage{grffile}, wrapping the filename into {} and/or "" (in any combination). Nothing is working! So, I have a file with name plots/task-1/LHC12f1a_/qa_pt:0.20-2.00/VtxZ (-10.00, 10.00)/charged; eta (-0.80, 0.80)/FB: 16; eta (-0.80, 0.80)/ef... @JosephWright well windows decided to replace "open cmd here" by "open powershell here", so I'm getting a bit used to it. And there are few useful extensions, e.g. get-command and measure-time. @HaraldHanche-Olsen I am using texlive 2017. So I rather suspect I am doing something wrong. @PauloCereda Chaves was very good too! Long time since I last watched it... 4:31 PM @UlrikeFischer Ah right: I go for the 'change the address bar of explorer to cmd and press enter' approach to getting a shell where I want @JosephWright Oh I had forgot this method. I should really remember it. @DavidCarlisle Given the OP's chosen username, I'm inclined to say yes. @DavidCarlisle No wait, that refers to Latex, as in rubber. @PhelypeOleinik Indeed! However, I was more of a Chapolin fan. :) @PauloCereda I must agree :) Does it make sense for me to visit the DANTE meeting with my current TeX-skills? 4:37 PM @PauloCereda But it was on TV very rarely :( @JohnDorian Yes, normally quite a lot things are even for beginners, and you can always ask people later. @UlrikeFischer Unfortunately I don't know yet if I will have time at those days. @UlrikeFischer But I'm thinking about it, since it's only an hour of traveling for me. @JohnDorian I will be there but I will need much more time ;-). @UlrikeFischer: Threema message. @JosephWright : Thanks for the enter-cmd-in-addressbar trick. Didn't know that. 4:46 PM @AlexG Got added in I think Win7 @JosephWright Long ago I prepared a portable MikTeX installation for when I am away on travel. There I had a *.bat for setting up things on an other one's computer. Among other things it manipulated the registry to add "Open command prompt here" context menu entry for folders. 5:02 PM @samcarter can you really not do mkdir ' any weird (; thing;' in OSX? @DavidCarlisle I did not try from command line as this very strange path has too many strange characters that would need escaping, but from the mac file manager I cannot have : in file or folder names. (yes, mac is stupid, please complain to my employer :) @JohnDorian I heard rumours that there will be a talk about tikzducks, for this you definitely don't need much latex skills, you just need to enjoy ducks :) @CarLaTeX Indeed! Sometime I have to create a map where ducks are used all around the globe. Maybe this will give useful information about ocean currents :) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_Floatees @samcarter in bash on the command line you can normally ' quote the entire string @DavidCarlisle True. @marmot @DavidCarlisle @samcarter But 54321 is a palindrome in base 952, which is (slightly) more interesting. 3 5:18 PM @HaraldHanche-Olsen Ohhh. And 952 is a very special number, it is the smallest integer divisible by 952. ;-) @HaraldHanche-Olsen @marmot 952 is one of the ISBN identifier for Finland @HaraldHanche-Olsen @marmot It is also a (Sophie Germain prime - 1) @HaraldHanche-Olsen @samcarter And it is the number of the Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt to Birmingham. ;-) @JosephWright If I add this as a test file for weird filenames in graphics will l3build be able to cope:-) @samcarter Indeed, so it is! @DavidCarlisle Er, good question: I've probably not protected fully against 'interesting' names 5:25 PM @marmot there is no smallest such integer! 5:40 PM @samcarter LOL 6:37 PM @samcarter Best option name ever 1 hour later… 7:56 PM @WillRobertson One for you:-) vvvv 2 I don't think it should be be needed but you can re-assert turkish in the footnote: \documentclass[11pt]{memoir} \usepackage{fontspec} \usepackage{polyglossia} \setdefaultlanguage{turkish} \usepackage[semibold]{libertine} \begin{document} In Turkish, \textsc{ı}' and \textsc{i}' are diffe... 8:35 PM Hi all together. My question tex.stackexchange.com/questions/417485 did draw a lot of negative attention. I just wanted to make sure that no one from you guys thinks that I had any bad intentions. @Dr.ManuelKuehner I thought it wasn't a bad question really (and Henri pushed it to the graphics-def github) since it would be me or @JosephWright that fixed this I suppose if anyone should be offended it should be us. That said, it's easier to see the current behaviour is not optimal than to see how to fix it. @Dr.ManuelKuehner i don't really agree with the sentiment that bug reports can't be reported here, things are not always clearly bugs and it's not always clear which component the bug is in so raising it here is fine. lots of more recent bugs reported to latex or the major packages are essentially just references to exiting questions and possible workarounds posted to this site. 3 @DavidCarlisle bugs in your packages? Preposterous! @PauloCereda bugs in my packages of course do not exist but people anyway use the bug tracker to request features, or (more commonly) to report errors in their code 2 @DavidCarlisle ah :) @Dr.ManuelKuehner the main problem as far as i understand it is that \pdfpageattr{/Group <</S /Transparency /I true /CS /DeviceRGB>> forces a consistent colour model so things look better on screen but it forces RGB and that may well be the wrong colour model for printing or if the PDF is including cmyk images or .... and basically latex has no knowledge of what colour models are used in included images or whether the pdf is going to be rendered via a cmyk printer or rgb screen or ... 9:02 PM @DavidCarlisle Thanks for the kind reply. Glad that you did not get me wrong. @Since I am always using RGB and never other color models the solution works for me so far. But I see your point. @DavidCarlisle I am offline now. bye :) 9:45 PM @DavidCarlisle @Dr.ManuelKuehner I tried a few examples in the question (the tikz related which didn't rely on external resources) and can't see any differences on windows with a current adobe reader or adobe pro. 10:11 PM @UlrikeFischer thanks for that testing... @UlrikeFischer I cannot check your comment at the moment. But it would be great if the problem vanished. 10:23 PM Sorry to be a bother again, but I just tried writing my own command and it behaves differently with and without empty lines in the definition is that intended behaviour or might that be a bug? @CrowleyAstray An empty line means “end of paragraph” more accurately, it depends on if the } closing my \nohyphens has an empty line before it or not could you explain to me on why that causes different behaviours? because I can't quite understand it myself ._. @CrowleyAstray an end of line is a space and a blank line is a paragraph, so only put those in a definition if you want to add spaces and paragraph breaks in the document. well, I don't, but the \hfill behaves differently depending on it @CrowleyAstray as always if you want someone to debug your code it helps to show th ecode 10:29 PM @CrowleyAstray Unlike many programming languages, TeX is not free-form. This means that most of the time the way you type the code will have an impact on the outcome, even if the code "looks" the same. This includes line breaks and empty lines. ok, here is the mws: \documentclass{article} \usepackage{graphicx} \usepackage{wrapfig} \usepackage{hyphenat} \begin{document} \begin{wrapfigure}{r}{5.5cm} \includegraphics[width=5.5cm]{example-image} \end{wrapfigure} \nohyphens{ test\hfill test\\test\hfill test\\test\hfill test } \end{document} if I have an empty line before the } enclcosing \nohyphens the \hfill will only fill to the picture, otherwise it will ignore it @CrowleyAstray so you are adding a space after { and before } at each end of \nohyphens and if you add a blank line you ar adding a paragraph end no, a completely empty line, like so: \begin{wrapfigure}{r}{5.5cm} \includegraphics[width=5.5cm]{example-image} \end{wrapfigure} \nohyphens{ test\hfill test\\test\hfill test\\test\hfill test } I already tested, it doesn't do that if only a space is inserted @CrowleyAstray you had a space originally that changes it to a paragraph but you will see the same just from { } if you put a paragraph break inside a group then wrapfig will go wrong \nohyphens{ %<this is a space test\hfill test\\test\hfill test\\test\hfill test %<this is a space %<this is end of paragraph } @CrowleyAstray ^^^ hm, ok. LaTeX is a lot harder to get used to than I expected... still thanks for your time :) 10:37 PM @CrowleyAstray see this example: \documentclass{article} \usepackage{graphicx} \usepackage{wrapfig} \begin{document} \begin{wrapfigure}{r}{5.5cm} \includegraphics[width=5.5cm]{example-image} \end{wrapfigure} {test\hfill test\\test\hfill test\\test\hfill test } \end{document} if you delete the paragraph break before } you see the same effect (just showing \nohyphens is not really related to the issue. ok, thanks. I am really not used having to look out for such details, but the sooner I learn the better 1 @CrowleyAstray And if you have a few minutes to spare, read my answer here. It's not a reference text, but it's the one I could find :P @CrowleyAstray it is simple really once you keep in mind that the syntax is optimised for writing text of the document not code and (unless you are German:-) white space is not something to be removed, it is part of the essential input hello world is not helloworld 2 @DavidCarlisle You should learn languages. :-P @PhelypeOleinik Thank you for the interesting read! I also finally understand why many of the answers here have 'random' % at the end of some lines. 10:48 PM @CrowleyAstray Not so random now :P @CrowleyAstray You're welcome :) @Dr.ManuelKuehner Well I can't be sure. Quite a number of the reports where very vage and I didn't try to find the images mentioned in the old reports. But imho it would be good to get some current testfiles first before going on. @egreg Ich könnte dir etwas Italienisch beibringen @DavidCarlisle Try with Turkish @egreg hmm turkish option, too technical for me @DavidCarlisle Tick reversed, of course. :-) 10:58 PM @egreg but more seriously it isn't clear that fontspec should get itself into a position that \normalfont and the default document language are out of sync @DavidCarlisle That's indeed an issue; probably polyglossia should cooperate and advertise the language tag \expandafter\show\the\font \normalfont \expandafter\show\the\font The output is > \TU/LinuxLibertineO(1)/m/n/10.95=select font "Linux Libertine O/OT:script=lat n;language=TRK;mapping=tex-text;" at 10.95pt. <inserted text> \TU/LinuxLibertineO(1)/m/n/10.95 l.16 \expandafter\show\the\font ? > \TU/LinuxLibertineO(0)/m/n/10.95=select font "Linux Libertine O/OT:script=lat n;language=DFLT;mapping=tex-text;" at 10.95pt. <inserted text> \TU/LinuxLibertineO(0)/m/n/10.95 l.18 \expandafter\show\the\font @egreg yes that was more or less the basis of my answer:-) Or it should be fontspec to realize that the language tag for the main font should be TRK @WillRobertson 11:20 PM \node[blueb, label=center:{\sffamily\bfseries\color{white}a}] (RCP) {}; \node[blueb, right=of RCP, label=center:{\sffamily\bfseries\color{white}b}] (Aut) {}; \node[blueb, right=of Aut, label=center:{\sffamily\bfseries\color{white}c}] (Bro) {}; \node[blueb, right=of Bro, label=center:{\sffamily\bfseries\color{white}d}] (Pub) {}; \node[ blueb, inner sep=0pt, shift=($(RCP.south)-(RCP.north)\$),
yshift=-\pgfkeysvalueof{/tikz/node distance value},
fit={(RCP) (Pub)},
label=center:{\sffamily\bfseries\color{white}asd}] (Dm) {};
How can I make the last node with text "Dr" start aligned to left?
now It's below the node with label "asd" but centered respect to it, I can't make it aligned to node labelled with "a" that is on the upper layer

@Aurelius it's better to ask code questions on the question site, but also just posting a fragment makes it harder for anyone to answer

11:38 PM
@DavidCarlisle thanks for answering, I just thought that it was going to be too narrow...
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{tikz}
\usetikzlibrary{positioning,calc,fit}

\definecolor{mybluei}{RGB}{124,156,205}
\definecolor{myblueii}{RGB}{73,121,193}
\definecolor{mygreen}{RGB}{202,217,126}
\definecolor{mypink}{RGB}{233,198,235}

% this length is used to control the width of the light blue frame
% for the upper part of the diagram
\newlength\myframesep
\setlength\myframesep{8pt}

\pgfdeclarelayer{background}
\pgfsetlayers{background,main}

\pgfkeys{
/tikz/node distance/.append code={

@Aurelius like that?

@DavidCarlisle Wow exactely too kind! but with the same white vertical space that there is between asd and the other 4 nodes.. looks like is smaller between dr and asd

11:55 PM
@Aurelius yes well I did it by eye (but you can no doubt replace that by some pgf calculation if it wasn't midnight)
4
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{tikz}
\usetikzlibrary{positioning,calc,fit}

\definecolor{mybluei}{RGB}{124,156,205}
\definecolor{myblueii}{RGB}{73,121,193}
\definecolor{mygreen}{RGB}{202,217,126}
\definecolor{mypink}{RGB}{233,198,235}

% this length is used to control the width of the light blue frame
% for the upper part of the diagram
\newlength\myframesep
\setlength\myframesep{8pt}

\pgfdeclarelayer{background}
\pgfsetlayers{background,main}

\pgfkeys{
/tikz/node distance/.append code={
@Aurelius I just removed the belo= key so it started at the left and then added a yshift (as you had used for the previous line) to move it down I just guessed 60pt here