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9:00 PM
It might also be good to see some 'unexpected' takers
@percusse You get to read TUGboat for a year :-)
@tohecz I don't think we are looking in that sense for representatives, more people to take advantage of the opportunity to make use of TUG membership in whatever way they feel is best
 
@JosephWright I thought it's publicly free. Most of them are old articles I guess.
 
@percusse As you say, older editions only
@percusse TUG don't demand copyright transfer, so individual authors may make articles available, of course
 
@JosephWright Got it.
@JosephWright Would you like to write a blog post about who is who and who owns what? I'm always wondering the relations between TUG CTAN AMS etc.
Not to mention L3 team :)
Hypothetically speaking if some other team shows up and says here guys our take on L3. Who would be objecting first starting from the name rights?
 
@percusse I think it's a matter of licence of L3. You cannot so easily create another L3 project.
 
@tohecz Hypothetically speaking.
 
9:09 PM
@egreg Okay, that's a bug in edtable and has nothing to do with threeparttable. Even resetting linenumbers of a table within a group does not resume the "correct" linenumber in the text
 
I think they would have to call it another name, e.g. LaTeXIII
 
@egreg I guess I try hacking ednotes to use a second counter independent of lineno
 
@tohecz Yes but who owns the license and how does say MikTeX or TL can build on it etc. ? That's what I meant by my question.
Are they all gentlemen's agreement or is it on paper? Does Knuth still own the thing or is it like the Linux kernel?
 
@percusse TexLive is a compilation of packages done by TUG. MikTeX is an independent project
 
@tohecz But we put them on CTAN. All of these are why I've asked this question :) A coherent wrap-up would be nice.
 
9:15 PM
@percusse CTAN is officially run by TUG, and there're three root mirrors that are synchronized and from which the packages are copied into the other ones
 
Typography has gone to the commit stage
 
so if anybody can decide not to include a package on CTAN, it's TUG
@Canageek we know ;)
4
A: Follow and help the Typography.SE proposal!

toheczTypography.SX got into the Commitment phase! You can commit to it on it's Area51 page!

 
@tohecz I know these standalone details. Why didn't you like question in the first place?
:)
 
@percusse which question?
 
@tohecz Hahah, nevermind.
Here is something from my favorite blog
 
9:20 PM
@JosephWright @percusse TUG makes older article available all of them in fact, I sometimes do it even for my current ones. But of course TUG is more than just getting TUGboat
@percusse I would complain (hypothetically speaking) but probably a good number in the comunity with me, given that it is an established project
 
!!/eightball Does percusse like TUG? :)
@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: only egreg knows the answer.
 
@tohecz even then ... which is why people don't do it
@percusse owns what license?
 
@FrankMittelbach I've asked it as an example to see the legal tree behind it. Because there are a lot of Institution-like structures but they are all intertwined
 
@percusse Knuth owns the copyright on TeX, the AMS owns the name and licenses are something altogether different.
 
So a beginner in 10 minutes find out at least 6-7 official websites and it gets pretty confusing initially.
That's why I've asked Joseph but if you would like to do it, I'm more than happy too :)
 
9:26 PM
@percusse Knuth's code is in the public domain. But still he reserves something to himself, for instance no implementation of the code can be called TeX if it doesn't pass the trip test.
 
@percusse have a look at latex-project.org/papers/tb100mittbach-lppl-history.pdf for some background on licenses and copyright around LaTeX
 
@FrankMittelbach To be honest I did read it before :)
@FrankMittelbach Maybe I don't know enough about the licence nuances.
 
@percusse good ... so perhaps I haven't followed the thread far enough back ... just jumped into the middle
@percusse and you many not want to know it is pretty nasty stuff and the world was much better off when people didn't need that legal stuff
(that much) at least not in the computer world
 
@FrankMittelbach In the context of the eight slots available for 'sponsored' TUG membership, TUGboat seemed the most obvious 'tangible' benefit
 
@FrankMittelbach No I think I didn't made myself clear. I just wanted to see if somebody officially involved might want to write who is who and who owns what.
 
9:30 PM
@egreg it is not in the public domain that is a myth
 
@FrankMittelbach Yet another example. There are a lot of rumors about it but nobody actually touches the code or even read it.
@FrankMittelbach I was just mildly wondering (not that I'll attack it) what the crucial obstacle is.
that nobody else took a chance in the Pascal code.
 
@FrankMittelbach Well, it depends on what you mean by "public domain": people is entitled to do what they want with the code of TeX, so long as they don't call TeX something that doesn't pass the trip test.
 
@percusse the issue here is that "public domain" means you give up your copyright ownership and Don didn't do this. What he did was "you can do whatever you like with this as long ..." which is what many people think public domain is
so he retained copyright only his license is "like typical public domain more or less"
in fact TeX is even trademarked as is Metafont
 
@FrankMittelbach Giving up copyright is not even possible in some places, of course, hence the Creative Commons people providing a license which is careful about that
 
@JosephWright i know i know ... which is why "public domain as in the US doesn't exist quite like that in Europe
 
9:34 PM
@FrankMittelbach As far as I understand license is the least of your concerns should you attack that beast.
 
@FrankMittelbach I thought that 'TeX' was not trademarked due the business with Honeywell (this came up before)
 
@JosephWright In Italy, for example, you can't give up copyright completely: intellectual ownership is never lost.
 
I think you guys can see what I mean by a blog post now, no? :D
If this is the case among elephants think about a second for the ants.
 
@egreg As I say, the Creative Commons people have something to say on this. I believe PD does work here in the UK, but I may of course be wrong :-)
But then we have the odd situation with the King James edition :-)
 
@JosephWright according to the TeX book biblio page it is trademarked AMS
 
9:36 PM
@FrankMittelbach barbara confirmed that it isn't, really.
 
@FrankMittelbach Should I ask this on the main site?
 
@JosephWright I'm already in UK-TUG, aren't I? Or are you throwing me out as well?
 
@percusse and I know why I never would do this ... it ends up in legal quabble, because that us really what this is
 
@PauloCereda Psmith would never say "'ello".
 
@AndrewStacey Oops. What should I use instead?
 
9:38 PM
@AndrewStacey No :-)
 
@egreg interesting ... if so a printed lie in more than 17 editions
 
@AndrewStacey Renewals will be due soon!
 
@FrankMittelbach I see so the issue is still fresh and unsettled...
 
@AndrewStacey My (serious) point was that if you are planning to pay for TUG membership yourself, you will pay less doing it via UK-TUG than directly, assuming you are going to renew your UK-TUG membership as well
 
@egreg @FrankMittelbach OK last question then: where is Knuth's TeX code if not publicly available?
 
9:40 PM
@percusse who cares ... most people in the TeX world fortunately still understand the basic ideas behind all this legal nonsense
@percusse eh? what you mean it is not publically available? it is everywhere available
it is just "if you change it don't call it TeX call it somethign else"
 
@FrankMittelbach Ah of course I misquoted it.
 
@JosephWright Right. When I next get a chance to sit down I'll look at the various options. The main point is that supporting TeX (via a TUG or two) is something I now think a Good Thing To Do (far more than, say, supporting Elsevier).
@PauloCereda Probably "Good Morning", or time-zone specific.
 
@percusse here are Don's sources: ctan.org/tex-archive/systems/knuth/dist
 
@FrankMittelbach Thank you.
 
@percusse @egreg and here is the famous license of one of the first "free software programs in the world": % This program is copyright (C) 1982 by D. E. Knuth; all rights are reserved.
% Copying of this file is authorized only if (1) you are D. E. Knuth, or if
% (2) you make absolutely no changes to your copy. (The WEB system provides
% for alterations via an auxiliary file; the master file should stay intact.)
% See Appendix H of the WEB manual for hints on how to install this program.
% And see Appendix A of the TRIP manual for details about how to validate it.
not even close to public domain :-)
 
9:48 PM
@AndrewStacey or make him an Aussie and say "Good Day!"
 
@FrankMittelbach But interestingly no mention of being allowed to change it and rename
 
@JosephWright Those were the days :)
 
@percusse Well yes
 
@JosephWright that's in other places. this here states that nobody other than himself is allowed to modify the file tex.web
 
@FrankMittelbach Yes, but somewhere along the line the pdfTeX people must have got permission to make changes in a renamed file, as it's pdftex.web and not pdftex.ch
 
9:53 PM
@JosephWright it was for a long time a change file. anyway Knuth has "all rights reserved" he can issue specials in whatever form .. no need to tread everybody the same
 
@FrankMittelbach Quite true: as I said, the pdfTeX people presumably talked to Knuth before changing from a .ch
 
also the above doesn't say if you are allowed or not top copy parts and reuse them ... oh licenses and legal stuff is a pain
 
@FrankMittelbach All very true
 
anyway no more license discussions for me here ... ;-)
'night
ah before i forget, I just saw that some question got folded into another one because it was "a duplicate" or so it was claimed... result is rather funny: a comment from egrep under the question about not using \\ and no \\ in the question any longer and two answers from egrep with different focus ... and and ... maybe such folding needs some level of cleanup or perhaps "duplicate" is a somewhat dangerous concept
 
@FrankMittelbach That would be a merge, and from memory the two questions were both a bit of a mess to start with
 
10:00 PM
but that makes the merge even worse in my opinion
 
10:11 PM
@FrankMittelbach @JosephWright I said it before and I will say it again: I don't see the concept of merging as something really working.
Btw, @Joseph, the other day, you were claiming that we have less moderators that the other sites of this size. Do you think that we would use more mods?
 
@tohecz I was just flicking through the stats. TeX-sx is one of the 'top 10' StackExchange sites on a lot of the measures, so it's interesting to see how we compare with some of the other bigger sites.
 
@JosephWright Well, that's not a good merge, IMO. I'd have simply closed the newest question as duplicate, but the answers dealt specifically with that question, so they should have stayed there.
 
@JosephWright yeah, 98% :D
 
@tohecz The Android site is also quite a decent size and has three mods to, but all of the other sites I compared us with had more. No need for any more mods here, as I see it: on a workload basis I feel we do OK.
@egreg We do our best!
@tohecz I was more looking at traffic/questions per day
 
@JosephWright I know! And I thank you for this. Can you undo that merge?
 
10:19 PM
@tohecz I'm not sure how some sites manage to keep answers at >99%
 
@JosephWright I know what you mean.
 
@egreg No idea
 
@JosephWright recently, at meta.Travel it was suggested to try to have 100% rate. I think that only someone with large lack of leader qualities can have such an idea.
 
@JosephWright OK, then. Let's hope the OP of the latest question has learned something nevertheless. :)
 
@tohecz English is almost 100%. I assume that anything without an answer gets closed, on the logic 'no answer means not a valid question'. Might be appropriate for some sites, I guess.
 
10:22 PM
@JosephWright Bullshit.
 
@tohecz Speculation on my part: I've no idea what their approach is
 
!!/eightball should the question be merged?
 
Sorry, I mean, every topic has some difficult questions that people don't know to answer. I know that on travel, the attitude is: If nobody knows the answer, it's too localized.
 
@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: ask again later.
 
which is a stupid thing to do. Even a question about kayak rental between two islands that nobody has heard of is valid.
 
10:29 PM
@tohecz Lurking in Travel.SE I found a question about hiking on volcanoes in Italy; the OP wants to go without guides. Simply crazy: active volcanoes are very dangerous.
 
@egreg We have a rule for that here no? Everybody should be allowed to shoot their own feet :D
 
@egreg Indeed.
 
Slightly more dangerous but similar to Comic Sans :)
 
An answer said that "with a guide you can see more". I'd say, instead, "your life will be less at danger".
 
@percusse Volcano bungee jump!
 
10:31 PM
@egreg Yeah, but IMHO "Going without guides is too dangerous to consider it" is a valid answer. I mean, other people can have the same idea a want to find the same valid answer -- isn't that the main "wiki" idea of SE?
 
@egreg As a mod, I can see a case for closing such a question on safety grounds: it's one thing to mess up your TeX code using a bad answer, quite another to risk your life
 
@PauloCereda Actually I have to go to Torino again. There is a very high bridge jump there. I am still trying to get to the Goldeneye jump and Torino bridge at the same trip but I'm too lazy to plan it.
 
@tohecz Also a good approach
 
@tohecz The list of people killed while hiking Etna without a guide is quite long. :( And Stromboli, which seems so innocuous with its 942m, can throw big stones into the air. And on the head of incautious tourists.
 
@egreg I don't argue. But that at most shows that the person is stupid, not that the question should be closed.
 
10:35 PM
@PauloCereda Oh the context ! I do bungee :)
 
@tohecz Oh, I didn't mean that the question should be closed; I was just pointing to the sloppyness of the answer.
 
@percusse :P
 
@egreg go and answer better ;)
 
@tohecz As I said, I've no idea of the policy on sites with a higher 'answer' rate than us. We seem to be at about 98% steady, and while there are a few questions I might be tempted to vote to close if I were not a mod, I think overall we are about right.
 
@PauloCereda Proof
user image
3
 
10:36 PM
@percusse OMG
 
@percusse something I'd probably never do.
 
@percusse Is it fun?
 
This is something relatively smaller 76 meters into the sea
 
@tohecz The question has been posed on May 21; probably the holiday is over. :)
 
@JosephWright Oh crazy
 
10:37 PM
@egreg ok
 
You are shitting bricks until your feet is off the platform but the rest is pure fun. Pure in its most literal form.
 
@percusse I'd more like to try a tandem parachute or paraglide
 
So I did 150 meters once but there is one in China (too far) and in Switzerland Verzasca Dam that you can see in the intro of James Bond movie Golden Eye. So it's called the Golden Eye jump.
 
@egreg In the past, I practiced archery. A lot of friends laughed at me because I used a bracer. No more laughs since two friends of mine got hurt when trying to play by their own. One of these friends was a girl, and she had a serious breast injury - women have to use chestguards.
 
@tohecz It's not as exciting as you might think though. Because you don't do anything. The idea that you are falling is not apparent at those height and then you open the chute and it's a slow glide. Still fun a lot but not like this :)
 
10:41 PM
@percusse Do you scream GERONIMO?
 
@PauloCereda Kawabanga
 
@percusse OMG YES!
 
@PauloCereda Better safe than sorry.
 
@percusse I don't see much a difference between a free fall and a free fall, just that one lasts longer...
 
@egreg So true.
 
10:43 PM
@PauloCereda I always wear a strong jacket (with back protection) and gloves, when on my scooter.
 
@tohecz I'll talk to you after you do it :) I was exactly thinking like you. Then you meet with mr. adrenaline...
 
@percusse: I'm trying to implement a chat module for our TeXbot. Should I include Word in the word censor? :)
 
@percusse I'm not an adrenaline type of person, I generally don't like these sort of things. But if somethings, let it be the paraglide probably...
 
@egreg How nice, that's the best approach. :)
 
@PauloCereda Just let it have it's character. Word, Comic Sans what have you. :)
 
10:44 PM
@PauloCereda One of my scout friends for hit in chest from a bow, nothing serious gladly, no lungs perforation and no rib fractures...
 
!!/eightball Should the-program-I-don't-mention-the-name-of be included in the censored words?
 
@egreg Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: without a doubt.
 
@tohecz I've mailed these people 5 years ago.
 
@tohecz Ouch. I'm sorry to hear.
@egreg Yay! :) *oops wrong smiley
 
They told me make 150 more base jumps then they'll speak to me. Yeah right.
 
10:46 PM
@percusse I'd hit that damn tree.
 
well it's the same principle with gliding :)
 
@percusse it seems to me that some people consider a life of an individual to be unimportant.
!!/help
 
@tohecz Psmith, the TeX bot: I'm deeply sorry, old chap, but the command listcommands does not exist.
@tohecz Psmith, the TeX bot: I'm deeply sorry, old chap, but the command listcommand does not exist.
@tohecz Psmith, the TeX bot: 'ello! I'm Psmith, the friendly TeX bot - the p in my name is silent, as in pshrimp. I'm here as a companion to our fellow users in the typographic land. As you probably noticed, I always reply under Paulo's account, but do not dispair, I say, my replies are always preceded by my own name. Enjoy your stay at TeX.sx! If you need any help, just ask our chat residents. Cheerio!
@percusse: try !!/list
!!/list
@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: I'm able to recognize the following commands: help, list, cricket, ctan, texdef, eightball, choose. You probably noticed that all commands must start with !!/ followed by the command name, didn't you? Splendid!
 
!!/cricket
 
@tohecz Psmith, the TeX bot: According to my book, cricket displays cricket news, our favourite sport! Wait a minute, is cricket a sport?
Psmith, the TeX bot, in fixed font mode: Let's take a look at the last cricket results:

- Australia 40 &  163/10 * v South Africa 225/10 &  569/10
- Chittagong Division 196/4 * v Barisal Division 204/10
- Dhaka Division 229/10  v Khulna Division 171/10 &  117/1 *
- Dhaka Metropolis 253/10  v Rangpur Division 129/10 &  168/4 *
- Sylhet Division 218/10  v Rajshahi Division 334/8 *
- Gujarat 566/10  v Hyderabad (India) 50/1 *
- Mumbai 297/10 &  6 * v Bengal 201/10
- Punjab 215/10  v Rajasthan 222/10 &  56/1 *
 
10:52 PM
@tohecz Indeed the fatality ratio is too high
 
!!/snooker
 
@tohecz Psmith, the TeX bot: I'm deeply sorry, old chap, but the command snooker does not exist.
 
@PauloCereda damn
@percusse my parents got baloon flight as a gift recently, and they really enjoyed it ;)
 
@tohecz Here is another one just to give you a perspective how fast they are going from a fixed frame :) It's completely nuts
3:12 is the relevant part
 
@percusse btw, I don't understand one thing on math.SE: How comes that so many questions have more answers than upvotes.
 
11:01 PM
@tohecz I think it's the me so smart combined with young user base lacking a tiny bit of diplomacy :)
 
yeah:
If I know the answer, the question is trivial -> no upvote.
If I don't know the answer, the question is stupid -> no upvote.
If I know the answer, my answer is the only possible -> no upvote.
If I don't know the answer, the question is stupid and answer as well -> no upvote.
3
 
@tohecz I think is quite accurate.
 
@percusse but I see people thinking this way there. A question is not an opportunity to "share something". I think the people who come there simply don't like the site.
 
@tohecz Yes and most are aware of it. So as Mathoverflow people put it: It's a disaster but it's useful for driving the trivialities away from Mathoverflow.
 
Well, this is an example that the Internet spoils people:
0
Q: Evaluating $\lim_{x\to 0}\frac{3x^2}{4x^2}$

questionof $3x^2/4x^2 $ Is it undefined or $6/8$? If we apply the Hospital rule we get $6/8$, so I think it is $6/8$. It would be undefined if it were $3x^2/4x^3$.

 
11:08 PM
@percusse (Norway!) Indeed, quite crazy. Here's another, ehm, close shave: youtube.com/watch?v=TcHxYkkXsDM
 
@egreg I'm tempted to flag the comment as "rude"
and you know what? I will do it
 
@TorbjørnT. You can be sure that I've watched almost all :)
@TorbjørnT. But I can't afford it right now. It's too expensive to quit the job etc.
@tohecz Don't bother there are tons of them. you will be flagged in the end :)
 
I just don't understand why it's possible to be nice here (amongst lots of scientists as well) and it's not possible there
 
@tohecz Hey, I've searched my nick and found the times that I've left. Just read on :)
in Mathematics, Mar 25 at 0:07, by Asaf Karagila
Aww. I lost 20 points due to a user removal.
I gotta give it to him this is funny...
in Mathematics, Mar 25 at 0:07, by robjohn
@AsafKaragila darn them! don't they know that we'd rather see their carcasses out there than to lose the upvotes?
:)
hehehe
 
11:24 PM
@percusse You, sir, are a hero.
 
@percusse and what is your nick there?
(btw, my notebook will soon be thrown down from the window, I'm getting into the "FUCK IT" mood)
no, I cannot read that chat log, it moves by one line in one minute
 
@tohecz Oh it's the same. SE network stuff.
 
@percusse ok, I wasn't able to find you there, but as I say, my PC is fucked.
anyways, I should go to bed
 
@tohecz no problem. You don't miss much. Ranting about how they lost points.
and who that sucker was.
:)
 
lol. If they voted more, they'd recieve more votes and not have to rant about anything...
 
11:30 PM
@FaheemMitha it's part of the required latex distribution so you can rely on it being there. (doesn't necessarily mean it's any good though:-)
 
@tohecz Nevermind. just do a bungy and it will be all good.
:P
 
@percusse there was a trick shown on meta for posting answers less than 30 characters which I ought to look up. That one needs a five character answer.
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh I can find it for you if you like
 
@DavidCarlisle on tex.SX or on math?
 
11:43 PM
on math.SE this works, too:
${}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}$
 
@percusse ah that's what thought.
 
@DavidCarlisle Click on edit. :)
 
@PauloCereda Where is my 25 points? Do you want to see my carcass too ? heheh
 
@percusse It's Patrick's fault. Mine is the bunny. :)
 
!!/give 25 points to my off-shore bank account
 
11:46 PM
@percusse Psmith, the TeX bot: I'm deeply sorry, old chap, but the command give does not exist.
 
of course you selfish bot
 
@percusse hmm system seems to have got smarter it won't let me do that (I'd already tried) Or do you have to add the comment syntax on edit rather than initial post
 
@DavidCarlisle @PauloCereda is the expert of the system
I guess it would be an edit
 
@DavidCarlisle I think it works in the initial post.
@DavidCarlisle: edit now
 
@PauloCereda no even on edit it says I have to have 30 and is stripping comments before counting
 
11:49 PM
emacs
<!--
Also mention auctex just to go over 30 characters
-->
 
@PauloCereda nope I can't add it with the comment markers, the character count goes down to 5
 
It's called Emacs. is enough characters :)
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh.
 
How about some ascii art ?
  _____
 | ____|  _ __ ___     __ _    ___   ___
 |  _|   | '_ ` _ \   / _` |  / __| / __|
 | |___  | | | | | | | (_| | | (__  \__ \
 |_____| |_| |_| |_|  \__,_|  \___| |___/
 
@percusse zero width space is a character....
 
11:56 PM
@DavidCarlisle You and your HTML ways!! :)
 
@percusse xml actually (of course I used emacs to generate the character:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle But it's gonna be edited, discussed over, criticized for disrespect etc. so the joke will be probably ruined. Still I think it's a perfect answer.
 
@percusse oh well, Of course now he's seem the trick @PauloCereda will probably post a two letter answer (or three if he wants to appear modern)
 
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