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12:03 AM
shavuoh tov
@goldPseudo i see you arguing there with another muslim bout his understanding
@goldPseudo i want to know where you get the idea from that christians abolished the laws of HaShem
12:51 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov it's a fairly major tenet of Christianity.
more accurately, he came to fulfill, rather than abolish.
the end result is, the Mosaic Law is no longer binding.
at least, not scripturally.
rather, Christians are expected to follow the Law as written in their hearts (via the Holy Spirit, i believe)
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
1:28 AM
@goldPseudo i know for fact he didnt come to abolish because it says who ever removes even a yod(smallest letter of the hebrew alphabet) from the torah will go to jahennum.
@goldPseudo this is where we disagree with muslims and christians, becuase he didnt fullfill anything.
@goldPseudo from that what you quoted to me, it seems as if you agree that he is G-d Chas WaSholom/Asatgfurallah
i merely quoted, i never assigned meaning nor belief.
well you believe the first part which you quoted because you claim chrisitans abolished jewish law and muslims abolish christian law
is this true or am i getting ti wrong
you asked me what Christians believe. i merely explained.
I am not, nor have ever been, Christian.
i'm still trying to figure out what exactly i believe about the Covenants; i do, however, believe that they are not binding on Muslims.
no i asked where do yo u get the idea from. i thought it was a muslim idea since you are muslim
Muslims, as far as I know, have never been bound by the Mosaic Law; at best they're bound by the Noahide Laws, which even you probably don't deny.
so any role Jesus had in the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law was limited to Bani Israel, since they were the only ones actually bound by the Mosaic Law.
1:33 AM
thats what im trying to say...
muslims aren ot bound by torah law they are not jews
they are bound by the laws of banei NoahH
now im asking you if you believe the christians nullified the laws of HaShem
i personally believe, as the Christians believe, that Jesus played the role of the perfect sacrifice.
sacrifice for what
1:35 AM
whats everything
hence "perfect".
do you know a person doesnt nullify another persons sins?
not to mention there is no such thing as human sacrifice only animal sacrifice
by being sinless, and completely undeserving of death, his sacrifice was accepted as atonement for all sins of Bani Israel.
they why was the temple destroyed
after his death
also muslims doesnt believe he died anyway...
you asked what i believed.
i'm not convinced that his death was relevant.
it's the sacrifice that mattered.
1:38 AM
also like i said again, the sacrifice on yom kippur of the sheep with a red string attached to it is what is being sacrificed
if the string becomes white we are forgiven if it stays red we are not
where does a human come into play here?
besides the fact the human ties the string and the high priest/kohen jodol does he service
so if the christian bible contradicts the torah what do you do?
i merely study the bible for historical context; if you want someone to actually explain Christian theology to you, i would recommend asking a Christian.
not to mention there are 2 types of christians according to christianity
im asking you because you are a muslim claiming christian theology
this pertains to you jsut as it pertains to a christian
it is your holy book too
according to chrisitanity there is a jewish christian and a non jewish christian
a non jewish christian goes by the laws of banei NoahH as well
and a jewish christians goes by torah
so when he "first" came he came for the non jews and his "second" coming is for the jews
also there is no historicity to the christian bible
ill be waiting for you answer
i don't feel like it.
feel like what...
feel like answering.
you seem intent on just arguing with me for the sake of argument.
1:45 AM
for the sake of truth
you said you converted to islam because it made sense to you
well it doesnt make sense to me, so speak your truth
what truth? it made sense to me.
God guides whosoever He wills.
that's not my job.
and imasking your questions
regarding your so called truth
if its true it has answers to my quesiton
I have submitted myself to God and His authority.
1:47 AM
He is the authority
Have you submitted yourself thus?
then I don't see what you're arguing about.
God will judge between us on the Day of Judgement.
because your submission is not submission alone
then why muslims killing kafirs?
i have never killed a kafir.
1:50 AM
no but other muslims have
you'd have to ask them then.
i would if i would be able to even get close to them before getting killed
or kidnapped for ransom and once they get the money kill me
what is your nationality? besides saying your canadian. what is your original nationality meaning from where do your ancestors come from
i am canadian.
as were my ancestors.
french? native american?
english? eskimo?
i don't see how it matters.
i was born, and raised, in canada.
1:55 AM
i would like o know
go far enough back, and almost everyone's an immigrant.
yea canada is not a real national country
its like america
it's a pretty big country.
i think it's officially recognized as a nation.
i was born in British Columbia, if that helps.
its not a real nation its a multi peopled nation
and i'm one of those people.
2:05 AM
yea and im asking which of the original nationalities that make up the canadaian nationality do you belong in
i've already told you, i'm canadian.
have been for generations.
i suppose if you go back far enough, i might be mongolian.
or siberian.
or whoever it was that was supposed to have crossed the land bridge.
thats what im talking about
but i guess that doesn't count, because canada isn't a nation.
so i don't know what you're asking.
and it doesn't change anything anyway, so i don't know why you even care.
cuz i like ot know ppls nationalities
its cool
siberian :P
so yea when u feel like answering me questions ill be waiting
don't hold your breath. i don't really respond well to people who "ask" questions as you have.
i already told you, if you want someone to explain the complexities of Christian theology, you'd be better off asking a Christian.
i follow the religion of Abraham, who was neither a Jew nor a Christian.
2:16 AM
nor an islamist
and right now, i want to go get some coffee before the coffee shop closes.
so i shall bid you adieu.
also i tld you that question was regarding muslims theology on their chrisitan side
since they entale the o ther 2 before them
therefore its a quesiton pertaining to u and i want an asnwer from you and not a christian
i already answered that from an Islamic perspective; whatever Jesus did or did not do for Bani Israel is more or less irrelevant.
we believe that he was a prophet, but we don't claim to be bound (or ever to have been bound) by Mosaic Law.
no one says you are
but you are quoting christian scripture which contradicts islam as well
says you.
i don't respond well to baseless allegations.
and my coffee shop is getting closeder and closeder every minute.
2:21 AM
so im asking if you believe in contradicting scipture, which first of all contradicts judaism then how can you believe in it
so go buy ur coffee and ocme back, sip it while tlaking to me
2 hours later…
4:24 AM
@goldPseudo u back?
9 hours later…
1:34 PM
@DhoweedYaAgov interesting what you say, but in fact Muslims that follow Islam, in words real Muslims, do not kill non-muslism for no reason, we believe that that whoever kills an innocent person it is like he killed all of humanity. And in fact, there is no where in the Quran that tells us to kill, unless we are in battle and we need to defend our selves
as for those who say they are Muslim, but kill innocent, they are not following Islam properly. Have you heard of those people who take/believe in a part and disbelieved in another part?
2 hours later…
3:54 PM
Yea that's called distorted truth and misinterpreting it to mean what you want
Which is exactly what muslims claim Jews did with the torah
There should be a new prophet and a new book to come teach us the new ways
what "new ways"?
New laws n a new prophet to learn from, since obviously islam didn't teach its ppl properly
Islam doesn't teach anybody anything; God guides people to Islam.
can He not do that as He wills?
Don't go in circles
if the message hasn't changed, why would a new messenger be needed?
4:02 PM
What is the message
We see the message did change because it says not to murder yet there are muslims murdering more than any other religion out there
to worship God and to submit to His authority.
Jews don't do that?
did i ever say you didn't?
Quran says so
show your proof if you should be truthful.
4:05 PM
Because if the Jews didn't change its message there wouldn't need to be a new message
now you're just being silly.
stop being silly.
No you stop being silly, what is the point of Christianity n islam after judaism according to muslims. Because the message was corrupt new prophets were sent with new books. Am I right?
the Torah hardly applied to the world as a whole; the Qur'an is for all mankind. the scope is completely different.
The torah applies to all because it teaches about the 7laws as well
The torah was for Jews and Jews were like the torah for non Jews
To take guidance from
we should take guidance from those who have earned God's Wrath?
4:10 PM
That's the point. Since we earned his wrath, just like other nations, it shows we are not favorited, therefore
The nation who received the torah who should be an example to the world gets punished, how much more so are the non Jews in this situation.
Since the other nations took guidance from us, now since we ourselves are in Goluth/diaspora and we need guidance, the other nations need guidance as well
so is the Message that God's Wrath does not outweigh His Mercy?
No his mercy is stronger
Christ Jesus was sent as a mercy to the children of Israel, and he was rejected.
His mercy however only takes affect when Jews repent
"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."
4:12 PM
Yes because he contradicted the torah. This whole story of him contradicts the torah. Like I told you before a person is not a scapegoat for another even more so for a nation
then your punishment in this world is that you continue to bind yourself with the Mosaic Law to no avail.
Yes and we were and still are being punished for it by being in the diaspora and not having our homeland back n not the temple or the other 10.5 tribes
That's the point of the mesih/moshiahH
He will bring everything back to normal once we repent
if you choose not to accept the mercy given through Christ Jesus, if you choose not to accept the truth confirmed in the Qur'an, that is on yourself.
God knows the truth of all matters.
Lol? You are contradicted scripture.
The torah is eternal. Did I not send you proofs?
And you cried I should stop showing you proofs.
I am not going to waste time explaining complexities of Christian theology with you; if you want to know how Jesus "fulfilled" the Law instead of "abolishing" it, ask a Christian.
4:17 PM
Therefore any nation any prophet anyone comes with a book or message saying he has heard from G-d that the torah is abolished is a false prophet and should be killed
"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
No you should waste your time because it applies to you to. I told you this yesterday
You as a follower of mihammedism accept Christian theology therefore you are also a Christian
Explain to me what these complexities are
Don't play games with me. You are in other words a Christian
So please explain to me all that is needed to explained
I am Muslim.
4:19 PM
If you have truth and proof of your truth go preach it
Jews are muslims too
So are Christians and Buddhists
They all submit to their G-d
"O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant [upon you] that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me], and be afraid of [only] Me."
Your semantics don't mean anything in a debate
"And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me."
"And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know [it]."
Yes that's in the torah as well
I said Christian theology this is not christian theology this is judaism in islam theology
this is the last time i will say this: If you want an explanation of Christian theology, ask a Christian.
4:22 PM
Islam takes both jewish and Christian theology and mixes it with mohammedism theology
i tire of your games.
And this is my answer every time, you are in this sense a Christian as well for you accept their book and their practices besides the pagan ones
Since you accept Isa and his book, you should then know what he said and what he did in those books.
Therefore making you an original Christian before the Paul period of paganism
then why do we refer to the Christians as "those who have gone astray"?
Because they made Isa into a deity
But you who haven't, are the real Christian
Those who follow his book and teachings and accept him as a prophet
And a mesih/moshiahH
Am I right
I am Muslim.
4:26 PM
So is everyone who worships a deity
You are playing semantics like Ali does when I get him in a corner
no, i just tire of your games. i have said this before.
And semantics don't play jack in a debate
this is not a debate. you are just attacking me for no reason.
Lol your playing games by going the semantic way
A debate is an attack obviously
I told you if you have truth then speak. If you speak about the holy torah and make false claims about its people and the hide in a corner she. Confronted, that shows how much truth you have
And hide in a corner when confronted,
you want some truth, i shall give it plain
4:31 PM
Not some truth I want all truth
is that truth enough for you?
@DhoweedYaAgov, knock it off. You are committing a chilluh Hashem. To everyone else, please understand that he is not representative of all Jews.
2 hours later…
6:12 PM
@goldPseudo you didnt let me finish my post, and you the one who sais its fine for debate here.
@MonicaCellio ali invited me here for this specific purpose. gold said its fine to debate and discuss.
@MonicaCellio i dont see any chillul hashem when both parties agreed to this. however if he feels threatened or doesnt want to talk then he has the right, but to censor someone when both parties agreed is childish
@DhoweedYaAgov ali is currently chat-banned and @goldPseudo said he doesn't want to "debate" with you.
@MonicaCellio the question is not only for him its for muslims, this chat is islam
last night he didnt "feel" like wanting to express his ideology to me, so i responded that when he "feels" is right he can answer
and ill be waiting for him to answer
but its not specifically him its for all muslims here, i am talking to him now because hes the only one responding, but i talk to al ummat as well
him and al ummat seem to be the only 2 on here anyway.
He told you to cease and desist. You didn't. It's not about being "threatened"; you are annoying him in his site's room. Please don't be a bad guest. The chillul Hashem is that you appear to be badgering somebody who doesn't want to play your game. We can do better than that.
its not a game, he is playing the same game ali did with us with semantics. he doesnt want to talk thats his problem, i have the right to post my questions and have others who do want to answer, answer.
when he was typingto stop i was in the middle of typing my answer on my phone, therefore i didnt see his text and when i posted it like 5secs after he wrote his message, he atumatically deletes it
not to mention al ummat says many times that he is learning from what i am saying.
or says it is interesting what i am saying
@DhoweedYaAgov I have no authority (here) over you and I don't intend to intervene further. I saw a fight between a Mi Yodeyan and a mod of another site and I came to offer counsel. What you do with that is up to you (and the owners of this room). I'll be taking my leave now.
6:19 PM
yes this is between me and gold and others in this chat
@goldPseudo dont feel mad or anything bout what i said, what i said applies not only to you. but to everyone here.
@goldPseudo but if you claim to have truth you should speak it. if you dont know then say you dont. and al ummat can add his knowledge
@DhoweedYaAgov Debate and discussion is welcome here, but you were told that it must be done with respect.
there is nothing respectful about badgering other users.
especially not users who have explicitly said they're not interested in discussing the topic with you.
@DhoweedYaAgov I have quoted the Qur'an to you; you dismissed it. Shall I quote the entire Scripture for you?
why demand the truth if you dismiss it when it's presented to you?
if God's own Truth is insufficient for you, what would my own personal statements add?
6:53 PM
@goldPseudo you have not quoted me the truth. you quoted to me the verses in the quran which deal with not changing the torah then you quoted the christian bible
and im asking where in fact do you get the idea from that the torah law is anulled
and you always quote the christian bible never the quran
so im asking you where you getting your idea from...
if you quoting christian sources, it means you are much versed in them and know that christian sources as well as islam sources which accept christian ideology, contradict the torah, therefore im asking how do you follow something which contradicts the torah yet accept the torah as holy and divine.
and you said i should ask a christian that... then we had the conversation that really you are a christian in a sense as well for accepting their book and ideology, but you are playing semantic games saying you are muslim
and i said everyone is muslim and you got mad
is this not so?
What is going on in here? I can't follow the discussion (maybe because I didnt read it from the beginning). And how is everyone Muslim?
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