Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya

@user66807 they all submit to their "G-d"

user66807

but being Muslim means you have to submit to God and accept Prophet Muhammad (S) as the last messenger. Its part of the declaration of being Muslim.

no thats the declaration of being a mohammedian

muslim means submission to G-d

Avarohom Ovinu was a muslim and so were all the Jewish propehts

and Jews themselves

@DhoweedYaAgov I "always" quote the Christian bible? Seriously, that's the argument you're going with now?

user66807

Yes but they accept him too. When the Prophet Muhammad (S) traveled to the heavens he led all the other prophet's in prayer, so they accept him too

7:06 PM

@goldPseudo yes you quoted christian scripture with regarding the nullification of the Torah

@DhoweedYaAgov where?

@user66807 yea no one can travel to heaven not even in a space ship

if you ask me to explain Christian theology, of course I'll refer to the Christian scriptures. They're a rather major source of Chrisitan theology.

it's absurd to think otherwise.

@DhoweedYaAgov it's a fairly major tenet of Christianity.
more accurately, he came to fulfill, rather than abolish.
the end result is, the Mosaic Law is no longer binding.
at least, not scripturally.
rather, Christians are expected to follow the Law as written in their hearts (via the Holy Spirit, i believe)
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "…

i asked for where did you get the idea that the torah was nullified

you quoted me this and said muslims believe this too

Is the book of Jeremiah a "Christian scripture" now?

7:10 PM

no

I quoted Jeremiah 31:33-34

Q: Certificate of Divorce by God to Israel

-1

I find the following verse to be very harsh as it gives a pink slip of Divorce to Israel and Judah Jeremiah 3:8: וָאֵרֶא, כִּי עַל-כָּל-אֹדוֹת אֲשֶׁר נִאֲפָה מְשֻׁבָה יִשְׂרָאֵל, שִׁלַּחְתִּיהָ, וָאֶתֵּן אֶת-סֵפֶר כְּרִיתֻתֶיהָ אֵלֶיהָ; וְלֹא יָרְאָה בֹּגֵדָה יְהוּדָה, אֲחוֹתָהּ--וַתֵּלֶךְ, ו...

and explained how the Christians interpreted it.

and you said muslims believe the same thing

did i?

7:11 PM

yes

well, i guess you win this argument then.

congratulations.

you said isa came to save banei yisroel

their sins were anulled

well, if i said it, i guess i must've meant it.

obviously, why would you write muslims believe this as well?

or do you practice taqiyya and just write one thing and mean another?

you are very close to a second suspension right now.

7:14 PM

im asking a question...

you said you wrote it and you mean it

you offend me with your ignorance.

is that in a sacastic way or not

im still waiting to see the muslim sources that say the torah is not binding anymore

"This day good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers."

that's just one example off the top of my head.

what?

it says non kosher food is kosher for jews

yep.

that's pretty clear, innit?

7:17 PM

no

is not kashrut part of the Law?

is it not explicit in the Torah?

because it says torah is eternal and the laws of laughtering the animals as well

well, i've given you Truth and you've dismissed it again. i don't see that i can contribute anything to this "discussion".

can something be nullified which is eternal?

@DhoweedYaAgov first of all what is this with you and the name muhammiden, secondly see this quran.com/5/32

7:20 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد on1foot.org/text/mishna-sanhedrin-45

@AlUmmatمجاهد mohammadean religion

@DhoweedYaAgov yes we are aware of that

@DhoweedYaAgov there is no such thing

ok

we don't worship muhammad

@AlUmmatمجاهد so such thing?

no one said you do

the same way jews are called jews

we dont worship yahudoh

but we are called his followers

@DhoweedYaAgov yes no such thing, and I told yo this many times before, not only in this room but in the judaims chat, and the room that was created for discussion between Islam and judaims. Further more Allah says in the Quran that he has set ( Islam ) as our way, he did not call it muhammadiyah

7:23 PM

islamidean better?

@DhoweedYaAgov what do you mean?

followers of islam

@DhoweedYaAgov Islam

you a follower islam, islamadean

those who submit are Muslim not sunni, shia, jew and so on

7:24 PM

i am muslim thats the point...

@DhoweedYaAgov ok

so to distinguish between a sunni muslim and a shia muslim and a jewish muslim

you need to make a word which bunches you in a group different than jews

@DhoweedYaAgov we don't need to, a Muslim is one who submits to God, and listens to his messegners

@AlUmmatمجاهد did i not say jews are muslims and christians are muslims?

we dont follow islam

so you cant be muslim because we are all muslim

you are an islamic muslic

just like in christianity there is a jewish christian and a non jewish christian

@DhoweedYaAgov if you want to confuse yourself with that logic than ok, we believe that those who followed their messengers were Mu'min, or Muslim

7:31 PM

its not confusion its fact

@DhoweedYaAgov I know, those jews and christians of the past

were Muslims/mu'mineen

yes

not jews or chirstians

now im asking what changed

i know christians changed, where did jews change

quran says christians worship isa and we worship uzair

where in scirpture do we worship uzair?

no where

ask any jew on mi yodea, they will say we worship Allah and Allah alone

just as i do

@DhoweedYaAgov do you not know that there are many jewish sects, you told me, one of them could have claimed to worshiped uzair, there were certain communities of the past (of bani Isra'eel) who transgressed, Ansari had made that clear the other day

@DhoweedYaAgov Alhamdulillah

7:34 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد there are many muslim sects as well

@AlUmmatمجاهد with different teachings

yes we know, but there is only one true way to follow Islam, and we know what it is

A: Have Jews believed that Ezra was the son of God?

20

I had never heard of this claim before. It certainly doesn't fit with everything I understand about Judaism. The Wikipedia article on Uzair (Qur'anic Arabic for Ezra, apparently) contains a great deal of interesting information about this claim in the Qur'an, including why it's incompatible with...

and there is only one true way to follow Judaism, and we know what it is

@DhoweedYaAgov did you not read what I said?

have you read what i said?

@DhoweedYaAgov yep

7:35 PM

no one worships uzair

we know how to worship Allah and Allah alone

@DhoweedYaAgov no Jew that you know, like I said before there were certain communioties of bani Isra'eel in the past who transgressed

just because MAYBE there was a small group of jews who worshipped uzair doesnt mean all of judaism is invalid

@DhoweedYaAgov Alhamdulillah

no where in history has there been evidence in jewish or non jewish scripture written of believing in uzair

@DhoweedYaAgov we know, Islam confirms what was previous

7:36 PM

only in quran

it doesnt confirm anything

it makes false claims

@DhoweedYaAgov prove it? I can

ok prove it

@DhoweedYaAgov one example is the one above, does not the Quran say that whoever kills one is like killing all?

@DhoweedYaAgov like what?

what

you know that statement is older than quran?

its in a Mishna...

@DhoweedYaAgov yes, did you know that in the same verse it says it was to bani isra'eel?

7:39 PM

there is nothing new about islam, all it did was take the religions prior to it and add a new twist to it

what was to banei yisroel

@DhoweedYaAgov quran.com/5/32

where did he come with clear proofs?

thre are so many hadiths of jews saying he came with false proofs

he did opposite what jewish law is

he made everything lenient hard and everything hard lenient

just like the torah says not to do

jewish saw says fast one day on ashura he says fast 2

jewish law says take of your shoes when praying he syas keep your shoes on

so much more

so

does that make that hard?

anyway everyone has their own definition of what hard is

yes because it is going against Allah

Allah made it easy for all to follow not hard

@DhoweedYaAgov not from himself

7:42 PM

so if you do opposite you are making it hard

he could not read or write, do you think he can take from various religions?

yes

there is hadeeth that he went ot his uncle or cousin or someone or a friend and he was christian

and thought him christian beliefs

and then there abdallah ibn salam who was jewish

@DhoweedYaAgov everything in islam is easy, it is in accordance with common sense, and even if it is hard it is for your own good, do you think learning Karate is easy? or learning how to cook properly?

and helped him with jewish laws

@DhoweedYaAgov yep, and He died

@DhoweedYaAgov really, where does it say that?

7:44 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد everything in judaism is easy, it is in according with common sense, and even if it is hard it is for your own good, therefore changing everything opposite is going against Allahs orders and wishes

we came first

we have precedence

our law stands first and you have to come to us to prove we are wrong and/or there is a new message

that is arrogance, anything can come first.

obviously islam didnt come first

thats for sure

judaism then christians then islam

does that make it bad?

no one said its bad

i said you need to prove to me that judaism, the religion that Allah bestowed upon banei yisroel and gave them his holy Torah, has been nullified with a new message

why?

then what is this with the first second and third, both religions Judaism and christianity had the same message as Islam does

7:47 PM

because Allah gave 613commandments to jews and 7 to non jews

no

@DhoweedYaAgov I can't, because we don't believe that

we believe that Islam confirms what was previous

torah teaches how to identify a false prophet

@DhoweedYaAgov really, tell me, I am curious

even if a person comes and says something in the name of Allah and he recieved a new book and new message from him we need to test him

@DhoweedYaAgov fair enough

7:49 PM

if we find even 1 small detail which he does wrong in according to Torah, he is not a real prophet because no prophet can contradict the torah

only add on to it of its the same message

@DhoweedYaAgov what Islam is, is a simplification of laws that are in Judaism, in other words you can find similar laws, the only difference is it has been made easier

so even if mohammed or isa came with the SAME exact message, but we found that they both were wrong in other parts of their theology, they are fake prophets and must be stoned to death

so that anyone at any time may practice

yes

and Torah says clearly in the verse that these laws are easy for all to do

because Allah doesnt send something which a person cant do

@DhoweedYaAgov The Quran is from Allah, it is a confirmation of what was previous, but you say that you will only believe in what came down to you, but really, why would the Prophets from God who brought the truth be killed if those of the past truly believed?, just because you don't want to believe in what Allah sent down with them?

@DhoweedYaAgov yes

7:57 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد what?

no

i didnt say we wont believe in something which is not given to us

i said the people who come to us have the burden of proving that their words are truly from Allah

and no such things happend

@DhoweedYaAgov ok. Tell me then, your requirements to identify false prophets

other then not contradicting your Tourat

and the prophets which were killed in the books of the nabee'eem, were not killed by jews who were following torah, they were jews who were following pagan deities. and it wasnt all jews it was only the king. and it wasnt the king himself it was his non jewish wife jezebel. she was following pagan deities and pagan prophets and killing jewish prophets from preaching to the people to stop beliving in false hood, also those prophets didnt bring new Torah(books of law)

they only brought messages to tell jews to sotp worshipping the idols and following the stupid king

ok, as you say then

@AlUmmatمجاهد the main point of a new prophet is to follow the Torah not contradict it. When a writer writes a book, he doesnt write book a then then in book b contradict everything in book a

if he is a jewish prophet he is following Torah

if he is not a jewish prophet he is following the 7 laws of banei NoahH

if he brings a message to the jews then let it be and we will listen. if that message contradicts the message of the torah he is a false prophet

if he brings a message to non jews, if he contradicts the message of the Torah and obviously the message of banei NoahH which is 7 laws out of thr 10 of the 10commandments, he is a false prophet

"They assert in wicked defiance that they believe most firmly in the prophecy of Moses, as the Arabs and Byzantines say yet they destroy and nullify his law and kill the adherents thereof. Whoever joins them is just like his seducer." The Rambam from Letter to Yemen.

"If any heretics rise up to corrupt the people, they will undermine the faith of the young folks and they will not find a savior. Beware of them and know that in our opinion, it is permitted to slay them, for they repudiate the statement in the prophecy of Moses who commanded us to act."

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/904992/jewish/…

@DhoweedYaAgov He brought a message to all Jews and non jews, all of humanity.

8:11 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد if it contradicts the Torah, he is a false prophet

@DhoweedYaAgov what of those commandments are not in Islam?

if jews are supposed to eat kosher and quran says jews are allowed to eat non kosher, it is contradicted the torah

@DhoweedYaAgov what of those commandments are not in Islam?

@AlUmmatمجاهد if jews are supposed to eat kosher and quran says jews are allowed to eat non kosher, it is contradicted the torah

@DhoweedYaAgov answer my question please

8:15 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد whats your question im not understanding

what of those commandments are not in Islam?

can you write that in a different way

@DhoweedYaAgov what is difference between the way we slaughter and the way you slaughter? other than you say we are non-jews, hence it is not kosher.

kashrut-kosher gentiles slaughter-shochet-shecht islam

5

Q: Is Halal Meat Kosher?

Muslims slaughter a Cow by saying "Bismillah, Allahu Akbar" meaning : "In the name of Allah , Allah is Great"" and follow the Zabiha (shechita) procedure to make it Halal. Some salient point of the Zabiha procedure: 1) The animal must be alive when it is slaughtered (hence stunning or othe...

@DhoweedYaAgov are there any commandments which aren't in islam?

8:17 PM

yes

@DhoweedYaAgov what? other than the kosher one, if I understood that what you said regarding kosher is a commandment

@AlUmmatمجاهد there is no shabboth commandment

qibla is yarusholoyim not mecca

temple is in yarusholoyim not mecca

even the first muslims prayed qibla facing jerusalem

@DhoweedYaAgov yes, but it was changed to see who followed and who didn't, God can change whatever He wished

he doesnt change something eternal

just like Torah and whatever written in it is eternal, so is its laws because they are written in it...

ok

any other commandments which aren't in Islam?

8:30 PM

all the commandments which pertain to israel

and the temple

which is alot

ok

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940209/jewish/…

these are all the 613 commandments

365 negative and 248 positive

@DhoweedYaAgov what do you mean by positive and negative

?

its a commandment to proclaim Allahs Oness this is a positive commandment meaning "to do"

its a commendment not to murder this is a negative commandment meaning "no to do"

ah I see

like halal and haram

8:40 PM

yea

@DhoweedYaAgov 613 commandments, isn't that hard to remember?

no

not all 613 we do in todays age anyway

I see

we dont have a temple or a sanhedreen

:)

8:45 PM

there it is

also there are alot of laws the american governemnt needs to remember

do you think they remember everything?

no they remember the main catergory and then look up the minor details inside the books

that's what I thought you do, makes sense to do that way to

yea

courts are supposed to know things by heart

regular jews have books which are outlined laws with commentaries and such

thats all you need

if you want to be a rabbi or something you learn deeper

same thing with everything in life

@AlUmmatمجاهد so did i prove my point that jews have a basis to reject isa and mohammed?

@DhoweedYaAgov yes, I thought you were clear enough

@AlUmmatمجاهد ok ty

@AlUmmatمجاهد now its your job to tell every other muslim you know so they can spread the word as well

that we have a right to reject islam and that islam contradicts judaism therefore stop killing us and attacking us or persecuting us

@DhoweedYaAgov really, why would I do that? You have your belief I have mine

8:56 PM

@AlUmmatمجاهد you tell muslims what i as a jew believe so that they know not to push us to accept islam

and then we have to begin arguing all over again

like this, time is not wasted since they already know not to bother us

@DhoweedYaAgov Islam doesn't teach us to push people to accept Islam, those Muslims that do, aren't following islam properly

they arent following islam properly thats not whats bothering me whats bothering me is that they go in the name of islam to do it

and the ppl who are following islam right should tell them they are wrong

if they dont, they fall in the same hole because they dont want do anything

its like a person is about to kill someone, and you know it but just stand on the side because its not bothering you

both of you get punished

who said that those who are following properly aren't doing something? further more Islam itself tells them, and because we are human, we can choose to follow or not to follow, to listen or not to listen

it makes al ummat look bad

what are you talking about?

your not making any sense

you are talking without any knowledge

9:02 PM

if you want to marry your son on someones daughter and her sisters are doing dirty things, even though the girl you want your son to marry is not like her sisters, you might have doubt they she was influenced by them and she does dirty things

therefore you wouldnt marry your son on the girl

ones someone in a group is bad it makes the entire group look bad

even though they are good

what's your point?

that those muslims who are killing people and my people specifically are making all the good muslims look bad

@DhoweedYaAgov hey, we have something in common now. Anyway, we cannot force anyone, including Muslims, they can choose to listen and or not to.

the rebels in syria are not any better than assad himself

they might be even worse if they get into power

however arabs killing arabs and muslims killing muslims as a recent thing

jews have been persecuted and killed and tortured for centuries

and you know whos to blame for that?

everyone

ok

9:08 PM

blame jews for not listening to Allah properly, and blame non jews for not helping jews get back to Allah properly instead they tortured us and didnt care for Allah themselves

you really know how to get on someones nerves

speaking truth hurts

@DhoweedYaAgov yes it does, but that is not what is hurting me

then what is?

my people and your people lived side by side for so many years

my people lived under your peoples reign for so many years

@DhoweedYaAgov yes I know

I have no problem with that

9:10 PM

then what

What is the point of you saying all this?

why suddenly bring this up?

so you know that the people of Allah have been persecuted by the very people who say they respect Mosha Rabbeinu and his people and the Torah he received from Allah to give to the Umma

we shouldnt be fighting but should be joining forces

to pray to Allah all together as one nation

yet it is always opposite

I am confused, but all I will say is ok

i dont think you will every understand the view of the banei yisroel because your people have never been in our position

ok