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8:01 PM
You are on your own for that.
 
comes with a clean klein bottle
 
@copper.hat Break the bottle and use the shards to free the mobius band
 
@copper.hat That's good. I don't know where my Klein bottle cleaner is.
 
I keep all my money in a Klein bottle in my basement
 
mine has a non occidentiable surface
 
8:06 PM
Sadly, Google can't find an image of a Klein-Gordon gin bottle.
 
@MoreAnonymous i used to pass for one.
 
@TedShifrin Used to?
 
Retired bum now.
 
@TedShifrin Ah ... okay I wish I did more mathematics
I did physics
 
Nothing wrong with that! What was your geometry question?
 
8:17 PM
@TedShifrin I think I can go from the line element to another coordinate invariant quantity. I'm not sure what this quantity is
or why this works
Was hoping a light discussion might clear things up
Are you still interested?
 
You mean a Riemannian or semi-Riemannian metric? What precisely do you mean by line element?
 
@TedShifrin either will do. Physicists often write line element as $ds^2 = -c^2 dt^2 + dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2$ for example is line element of a photon in flat sapcetime
 
Yes, it is standard lingo. So we're talking about the metric tensor.
 
$ds^2$ is the line element
 
No, $ds$ is, but it's a density …
 
8:25 PM
@TedShifrin Why $ds$ thought of as a density?
 
Because it is orientation-independent, so not a differential $1$-form on a curve.
 
@TedShifrin Interesting
I'll have to think about that
 
OK ;)
 
But proceeding with my question. lets I manage to find the transformations that enable me to take $ds^2 \to \lambda ds^2$. For example $ds^2 = dx^2 + dy^2$ becomes $\lambda^2 ds^2 $ when $x \to \lambda x $ and $y \to \lambda y $
 
This is called a conformal change of metric.
 
8:30 PM
Ah I see ...
Didn't know
 
@MoreAnonymous Gosh, I kind of wish I had done my physics. I did mathematics.
 
Now all those coordinates which participate in the transformation are replaced with their integrated variable $dx \to x$ and $dy \to y$ and I get $K = x^2 + y^2$
 
Conformal transformations can be much more interesting than just scaling.
 
Honestly, I am fairly close to applying for a physics masters. That would let me teach physics here (there is no one within 90 miles of me who is qualified to teach even introductory college physics).
 
Those which do not participate in these transformations are replaced with $0$
 
8:32 PM
What you just wrote I do not understand.
 
@TedShifrin can you reply to that message so I know from where
 
Crazy, Xander.
 
@XanderHenderson Where is this place?
 
@MoreAnonymous Northeastern Arizona.
The nearest physicist is 90+ miles to the west, at Northern Arizona University. The next nearest physicist is likely in Tempe, which is 175 miles south of here.
 
Your integrated thing doesn't make a well-defined function even though the metric tensor is.
In Euclidean space, sure, but …
 
8:35 PM
@TedShifrin Yeah, you can rotate, too! :P
 
@TedShifrin Yea its an algorithm I don't know why this produces a coordinate invariant quantity but it does
(I dont know of any counter example)
 
What does coordinate invariant mean? You are not allowing general coordinate changes, clearly, so …
 
@TedShifrin I mean if I started with the metric $ds^2 = dx^2 + dy^2$ or $ds^2 = dr^2 + r^2 d \theta^2 $
The algorithm produces the same result in both cases
(related by a coordinate transformation of r and thetha to x and y)
 
You haven’t answered my question.
You need to understand why tensors really do define coordinate-invariant notions, but most things don’t.
 
So this is what I meant by coordinate invariant
@TedShifrin So the output of $ds^2 = dx^2 + dy^2$ becomes $K = x^2 + y^2$ while that of $ds^2 = d r^2 + r^2 d \theta^2 $ becomes $K = r^2$. Since $K$ is coordinate invariant (as conjectured) $r^2 = x^2 + y^2$
the quantity $K$ which is the output of the algorithm is coordinate invariant and does not depend on the coordinates of the metric used
 
8:43 PM
You're wrong. Try different changes of coordinates.
 
I'll let you pick?
I tried $x = tu$ and $y = t/u$
it works here too
 
Try $u=x$, $v=x+y$.
 
I don't think your algorithm makes much sense, but why does the second case not yields $r^2+r^2\theta^2$ if you just "omit the ds"
 
$r\,d\theta$ is not exact.
 
@Thorgott The algorithm says if a coordinate does not participate in taking $ds^2 \to \lambda^2 ds^2$ then we put $0$. For polar coordinates $r \to \lambda r$ but $\theta \to \theta $ it undergoes the identity so we put $0$
*put $ d \theta $ = 0
 
8:49 PM
I read that sentence 3 times and still don't have a clue what any of it means
 
Pull back the metric under $f(x]=\lambda x$, @Thor. What part of the pullback is homogeneous of degree $2$ in $\lambda$?
 
So the algorithm is this

1. find all coordinates which scale $ds^2 \to \lambda^2 ds^2$.

In our example that would be $r\ to \lambda r$ then $\lambda^2 ds^2 = \lambda^2 (dr^2 + r^2 d \theta^2 ) $

2. Now since $\theta$ was untouched we put $d \theta = 0$
3. Since $r$ underwent $r \to \lambda r$ we replace $d r \to r$
4. Hence we get $K = r^2 $
 
Let me know how my example turns out.
 
@TedShifrin Sure penning it
first
 
@TedShifrin I don't follow? Both are in the polar case. They're diagonal coordinates after all.
 
8:58 PM
@TedShifrin Seems to work
I'll latex the solution?
One moment
 
Certainly that linear transformation does not preserve $\|x\|^2$.
I need to go out for my walk, but I'll be back later.
 
$(dv - du)^2 = dy^2$ and $du^2 = dx^2$

Then

$ = dx^2 + dy^2 = ds^2 = (dv - du)^2 + du^2 = dv^2 + 2 du^2 - 2 dv du $

Now we notice $v \to \lambda v$ and $u \to \lambda u$ gives us $ds^2 \to \lambda ds^2 $ So we replace both $du \to u$ and $dv \to v$. Thus:

$ v^2 + 2 u^2 - 2 uv = (x+y)^2 + 2x^2 - 2(x+y) x = x^2 + y^2$
@TedShifrin lemme know if you notice some mistake?
@TedShifrin also if you could mention when you would be back from your walk? Its kind of late here
 
 
1 hour later…
10:07 PM
@MoreAnonymous Mechanically replacing the $2$-tensor $du\otimes dv$ with $uv$ makes no mathematical sense. All right, try the metric $cos^2 y\,dx^2 + e^x\, dy^2$.
I can understand integrating the exact 1-form $dx$, but other things you're doing are mathematically not meaningful.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:30 PM
Anyone know what $\mathbb{H}$ identified with $\mathbb{R}^4$ means? Does it mean to just replace quaternions with a vector representation in $\mathbb{R}^4$
 
It means that you think of $\mathbb{H}$ as $\mathbb{R}^4$
usually (read: almost exclusively) by identifying $1,i,j,k$ with the standard basis in $\mathbb{R}^4$
as far as I'm concerned, they're literally equal as sets, but I guess your preferred convention may vary
 
Is this something that I have to do, or can I just proceed with $\mathbb{H}$
Essentially, I am following a proof and it states the above before proving a bunch of stuff.
 
that is a way too open-ended question
I can't tell you what you have to do
 
true
 
but let me ask you, what is $\mathbb{H}$ to you?
 
11:37 PM
$\{a + bi + cj + dij| a,b,c,d \in \mathbb{R}\}$ with rules on multiplication
I understand the analogy with $\mathbb{R}^4$ but is there any actual need to do that ever?
 
It is $\Bbb R^4$ as a vector space. What analogy?
 
sorry poor phrasing from myself
 
Ok, that's just notation, but what kind of things are $i,j$? What space do they live in? My point is that you may as well define $i=(0,1,0,0)$ and $j=(0,0,1,0)$ (and then define the multiplication, which is the important additional structure).
Anyway, whether there truly is a need to do something or not is a philosophical question I can't entertain. But $\mathbb{H}$ and $\mathbb{R}^4$ are so naturally identified that it won't make a genuine difference. It's just a matter of notation, I'm almost 100% certain even without even knowing what proof you're looking at.
 
oh yh, tysm
 
11:58 PM
when i was a child i behaved as R^4
 
You know the group homomorphism: $$\phi ; S^3 \rightarrow SO(3) ; q \mapsto \phi_q$$
Where $$\phi_q; \mathbb{H}^* \rightarrow \mathbb{H}^*; x \mapsto qxq^{-1}$$ for a non-zero pure quaternion $q$.
How does it actually work, I read somewhere it's to do with these loops which collapse?
 
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