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00:00
I'd triangulate each open chart and try to patch them up instead of turning them into triangles
Shrug
So you triangulated one chart
Perhaps a really big but compact ball, by a lot but finitely many triangles
What now?
Glue them together somehow
Transition functions must preserve those triangulations, in particular
Maybe that's too abstract and not helpful
Yeah you guys aren’t doing any good by doing this in every chart and then trying to patch.
Try inducting?
00:04
Are CW manifolds triangulatable?
not clearly unless the boundary maps are homeomorphisms
or phrased better, “no”
Do I want to extend the triangulation to a bigger ball containing the original dude?
You can do it in an arbitrarily big ball in a given chart, so that's not particularly interesting
If $M$ is a compact manifold with boundary, and I can triangulate every compact subset of $M\setminus\{p\}$, can I triangulate $M$?
That's true. I need to introduce more topology.
00:10
Or I dunno maybe that's not actually what I want to ask
That's an interesting question though. I think yes.
Triangularizability is closed under taking direct limits, IIRC
seems trivial since you can delete a small ball around p
and cone off on the triangulation of the boundary sphere
Maybe I want to ask the same question for noncompact manifolds in general
Not just ones with trivial ends
Can I have exoticness at the end?
@MikeMiller Ah, right, that makes sense
E8 \ pt is smoothable
00:12
Why doesn't your argument from just now work against it then?
but you cannot triangulate arbitrary compact subsets of it (the boundary sphere in the above example will not be smooth)
rekt
if you think of the end here as being homeomorphic to S^3 x [0,infty) the smooth structure we gave E8 \pt is exotic w/r/t the smooth structure endowed by any such homeomorphism
So you have a smooth manifold with boundary whose boundary is not smooth?
there's no smooth manifold with boundary in sight
Or, rather, you have a manifold with boundary which is smooth everywhere except for the boundary
yes
the "transition maps" for the boundary charts are too wild to correct
00:14
@MikeMiller Got it
That's kind of curious
And all 3-manifolds are smoothable.
Note something special about the smooth structure on S^3 x [0,infty): it's "cylindrical", there's a smooth action of the monoid [0,infty) shifting it downwards
@MikeMiller Ah, you mean this exotic smooth structure given by taking a ball around the removed point?
00:16
No, sorry, the standard one
Ok, I agree
any smooth structure on E8 \ pt with a cylindrical end gives a smooth structure on E8 (you identify the end with B^4 \ pt smoothly, then add the obvious chart)
Ah, true
What do you mean by "cylindrical end"
You can then "cone off" in DIFF basically
00:17
Isn't the topological end a point?
complement of a compact set
@Akiva A neighborhood around the end, more or less
Taubes actually proved something weaker about manifolds with periodic ends ($\Bbb N$ taking the role of $[0,\infty)$)
but showed that E8 \ pt couldn't even support one of those
You get the uncountable exotic R^4s as a corollary of this
00:18
Frick
i will not sketch that fact now
i want to go back to inducting triangulations eventually
I am still thonking about it but maybe Akiva has something up his sleeve
I don't understand what I am supposed to induct over, maybe that's for us to figure out
oh, pick a reasonably behaved finite cover of your compact manifold, sorry
Oh, induct on $n$ to get triangulation on $\bigcup_{i=1}^n U_i$?
@BalarkaSen I do not
00:21
reasonably behaved probably means something like saying that you actually have a pair of covers $\mathcal U, \mathcal V$, with $B^n \cong \overline V_i \subset U_i$, and then the induction is on $\cup V_i$
aye
That makes sense I guess
I mean, it makes sense that it would be "reasonably behaved"
I don't know exactly what that means, though
I guess it means you can thicken everything if you want to
I just don't ever want to work with infinite triangulations
And this lets me ignore that by triangulating $\overline V_i$
So, uh, say $V_1$ and $V_2$ are adjacent or something
Hopefully I can triangulate their union?
Say I have triangulated in a big ball $B \subset U$. $V$ intersects $U$ in $U \cap V$ and say $B \cap V$ is nonempty so we're actually on the danger zone to extend the triangulation on $B \cap V$ to $V$
U and V are two sets in your cover?
00:24
Yeah
I'm trying to suggest that the technicalities don't really matter about the covers, I'm just trying to make sure we don't need to deal with infinite objects
If it's a smooth manifold you can, I dunno, be all suave and stuff
So the picture Balarka has is that $V$ has a compact subset triangulated
So it's like having an unbounded closed domain in $\Bbb R^n$ which is triangulated
After I compose with the chart map
00:26
And $U$ also has a compact subset triangulated
And they intersect
oh man maybe this doesn't end up being as clear as i would hope
Hi everyone!
Do you want to fiddle or should I say the picture I have
Depends on Akiva's vote
Just say it
00:28
Ok^
I mean you have two triangulation systems but they could be really wiggly with respect to each other
or something
Fractally wiggly
So here's my picture: if the transition maps are wild, the boundary simplices of the old triangulation may be too wild to know that I can draw a simplex on the "other side"
Yeah that's what I'm really worried about
I mentioned that before
Especially on the boundary of the ball (the fractaliness shouldn't matter on the interior)
Ah, sorry, missed that
You need the transition map to preserve the triangulation, which we don't really have
Maybe in a non-helpful way
00:29
if you have smooth structures, you can inductively demand the triangulation is smooth
Ohhhhhh
If things are smooth than fractalness doesn't exist, I guess
OOOHHHHHHHH
I see
now in the second chart, your transition map has been smooth
Your boundary simplices can be like
Alexander horned dudes
00:30
Happy post-Christmas to Mike, Balarka ... and far long ago Chanukah to DogAteMy.
so you have a composition of a map which is linear in a smooth chart, with a smooth transition map
Merry merry.
So the simplices in the new $B^n$ are smoothly stuck in there
And what is another way of saying what it means to be smooth? :)
Merry Christmas, @Ted
@TedShifrin Right, so I was confused about something in your textbook, until I realized you were doing Riemann integrals and Riemann is bad
00:30
Riemann is just fine for undergraduates, DogAteMy :P
Balarka and I had a few chats about it
I wrote an MSE question on it
@TedShifrin I celebrated both this year, though I don't think the picture of me in front of the menorah on the 8th night made it onto Facebook.
Sorry I was unresponsive. I had a friend visiting for Christmas and spent 2 days days cooking for a mob.
3
Q: In the Change of Variables theorem, why must Dg be invertible a.e.?

Akiva Weinberger Theorem: (Change of Variables Theorem). Let $\Omega\subset\Bbb R^n$ be a region and let $U$ be an open set containing $\Omega$ so that ${\bf g}:U\to\Bbb R^n$ is one-to-one and ${\cal C}^1$ with invertible derivative at each point. Suppose $f:{\bf g}(\Omega)\to\Bbb R$ and $(f\circ{\bf g})\lvert...

LOL, I didn't see it if it did, @MikeM.
00:31
@TedShifrin 'Tsall good
@MikeMiller What it means for the simplices/faces of them to be smooth?
You want a diffeomorphism (except perhaps for a set of measure 0), DogAteMy. Nothing wrong with that.
Could someone talk with me about summer REU programs for a moment? I'm still in lower division coursework. Next semester I will be in vector calculus and differential equations. I have yet to take a linear algebra course, real analysis, or anything of a higher caliber. I'm going to apply anyways, because it doesn't hurt, but am I correct in feeling like I stand almost no chance of being accepted?
@TedShifrin fundamental theorem of commutative rings: $1 \longrightarrow 1+J(R) \longrightarrow R^* \longrightarrow (R/J(R))^* \longrightarrow 1$ is exact
@BalarkaSen Just that the map from the simplex is a smooth map. In the first chart we just chose them to be linear embeddings.
00:33
That's true.
so I guess it means that if $X$ is the corresponding simplicial complex, the homeomorphism from the realization $|X| \to M$ is a diffeomorphism on each simplex, considered as a compact manifold with corners
@CookieToast: Pretty much. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it's quite competitive even with several upper-division courses finished. But you lose nothing by applying.
@MikeMiller Ah. Strange, I never thought that could work out.
REUs are kinda lame and the whole academic system sucks get out while you can and save your sanity
Oh, is that the way you do it for 2-manifolds? You could take "sides" there because of Jordan curve theorem
00:34
Don't overdo your cynicism, Mike.
@BalarkaSen Draw a triangulation of the sphere and it will clearly be the case
@BalarkaSen Yes!!!!!
@TedShifrin I prefer honest bad news to false good news. Thanks for being straight with me!
🅱️esus
@TedShifrin You said you could strengthen the thing a bit. Why can't you strengthen it all the way?
I mean
There is no such thing as underdoing cynicism here, I suspect. the us academic system has gotta be in a huge bubble
00:36
@MikeMiller Why do you say that?
@MikeMiller I go to a tiny community college so no one ever talks with me about these things
You can let $Dg$ fail to be invertible on a set of volume zero. Are there counterexamples if it fails to be invertible on larger sets? @TedShifrin
also, so many people I know have developed serious depression and anxiety in grad school, partly as a consequence of the competitive way academia is built
it's such a hard game to win even when you have an amazing hand
@DogAteMy: Sure there are.
You should be very scared about the prospects of getting a longterm job in academic math
Hey there folks!
00:39
@mike
What about abroad?
Hi Demonark.
hi @Daminark
They fere holks!
I know the story much less but doubt it's much better
:blobhyperthinkfast:
@Ted and @Leaky how's everything going?
00:41
Ok, it's about 6
I'm only telling you the harsh state of academia. I don't think it's unfeasible to get jobs doing math, but doing research math...
have you heard the fundamental theorem of commutative rings?
DogAteMy: Suppose you have a map from a square to a square, but the image is only area 0 in that square. Then the theorem clearly fails for most $f$.
I must sleep
Unfortunately I don't know anything outside of academia
00:41
Night, Balarka. I mean, morning.
@Balarka jeez
@TedShifrin No
Both the LHS and RHS are 0 there
@MikeMiller the good thing is for most math research you can still do it if its not your job.
$\int_{g(\Omega)}=0$ 'cause it's integrating over an area 0 thing
I think I would have trouble finding the time if it wasn't my job :) But I think I could probably keep up with reading research outside of academic math
00:42
Why aren't you computing the integral of $f$ over the line segment instead?
Is this the case for you?
and $\int_\Omega(f\circ g)|Dg|=0$ 'cause $|Dg|=0$
@BalarkaSen Anyway the thing I wanted someone to say was that "the graph of a smooth map is locally linear"
@TedShifrin Because the domain and codomain of $g$ are the same dimension?
@Akiva did the fat Cantor set idea not work?
And thus (perhaps after subdividing the original triangulation a li'l) you can extend it
Rest in Poland
Spivak says the hypothesis isn't needed anyway
I guess we need to ask what you mean by a generalization.
but Spivak is probably talking about Lebeg integration
00:44
@MikeMiller are you asking me?
To be honest, I really only cared about using it to make sure integration of differential forms was well-defined, and for that we need diffeomorphisms a.e.
@MikeMiller Ohh
@mikemiller man I really hope you are wrong, or things change by the time I'm graduated :o
@quid yes
@TedShifrin Why
00:44
@CookieToast They will only get worse. I only have doom and gloom to offer, and not alternatives, though
Honest doom is better than false hopes though haha
Because we're defining integrals of forms by pullbacks by parametrizations.
@mikemiller
I remember in undergrad a lot of people told me that there was an older class of professors who was going to retire any minute now
I'll just marry someone with tons of money :)
00:45
I did that!
that happens sometimes and they fill those positions with non-permanent adjunct teachers instead
Apply to my significant other for grants haha
A tiny percentage of people who graduate with a math degree go to grad school, and only a small percentage of those admitted to grad school end up in the job queue later in academia.
I am so very unhappy about the job market that I am going to have to deal with next fall :`(
00:46
@MikeMiller no. Research is part of my job (technically half). But sometimes I feel I'd have more time for it if I'd just have some undemanding job.
mm, perhaps so
Yeah, the situation in academia was not great ... and then Trump happened, and things are getting worse.
@Cookietoast I've been told that being an actuary is one of the better options people have post-school
that being said, I shared an office this semester with an oldtimer who got his first academic job in mathematics at the same time as the collapse of the Soviet Union
But actuarial stuff is boring to lots of us, Demonark. Some of my advisees who went that route didn't last long.
00:47
@daminark I've heard that actuaries make tons of money, but the work honestly doesn't sound interesting to me
that was a miserable job market, it seems
@xander
yes, dear?
The soviet union or actuary sciences? xD
the post-Soviet-collapse
tons of very very good Russian mathematicians who all wanted to leave the motherland
thus flooding the American academic job market
00:49
@Ted well, are there better options?
right now, I am told that a typical job at the kind of four year institution where I want to live out my career gets 100-200 applicants
@Xander now maybe if we can just cause the collapse of north america, we can all flood back into post-american Russia
in the early 90s, it was on the order of 6-700
Biotech
@CookieToast Putin frightens me
00:50
Well, will that not require being reasonably proficient at biology?
Somewhat, but there's a lot of math ...
Because somehow biology never quite lit much of a flame with me tbh
I see
@TedShifrin Yeah, but, like, it is grody applied math
@Xander but they say he solved the Reimman Hypothesis while riding shirtless on a polar bear. What's not to like?
like, gag me with a spoon
00:51
for some overcynicism: most reasonable nowadays is to just die
@mike nihilism for the win!
@MikeMiller b... but then you'll never get grants! :O
I happen to like applied math, even though I was a pure mathematician
consistent results, consistent job market
00:52
@CookieToast that be some subtle news for who knows what the Reimman hypothesis is?!
Did you know that we used to have presidents who were not idiots?
Garfield even came up with a new proof of the Pythagorean theorem once
@quid ahhh thanks!
I wonder if Trump could even spell theorem...
00:53
To be fair, there's a billion of them @XanderHenderson
@Xander honestly I'm to young to remember former presidents
@AkivaWeinberger Yeah, but one of them is due to Garfield!
BTW, DogAteMy, Spivak does only Riemann integration in Calculus on Manifolds, as well.
@AkivaWeinberger there's plenty more to talk about but i don't know precisely what to say
Oh @TedShifrin
00:54
feel free to keep pinging me if you think about this stuff
@MikeMiller Well if you could actually build this strange manifold, that would be nice
you want to know examples of wild manifolds, or E8?
studiosus wrote up a nice equation somewhere that defines such a manifold
I wonder if 2D beings would ever discover something as strange as the Alexander horned sphere
On the one hand, you really need 3Dness to understand it. On the other hand, look at all this weird stuff we've managed to find
00:57
The horned sphere? What's that?
The Alexander one
oh fuck
15
A: The "Easiest" non-smoothable manifold

Moishe CohenHere are explicit equations for nonsmoothable manifolds (all of which admit triangulations). I do not know if these are the "easiest" but they are surely much more explicit than a description of the E8-manifolds, which is constructed as a result of some infinite, and very implicit, process (Free...

they have triangulations
This is terrifying
00:58
of course they do i know this story ughhhh i'm so sorry
E8 doesn't though
if Wikipedia is to be trusted
yeah I can tell you that story
sorry, let me do that
the wife is home
time to go make dinner
laters
The requirements algebraic topology imposes on the intersection form of an oriented closed 4-manifold (the cup product pairing $H^2(X;\Bbb Z) \otimes H^2(X;\Bbb Z) \to \Bbb Z$) are that it's unimodular (the det of the matrix defining it is pm 1) and symmetric
Right so you've already lost me
01:02
Sorry, I don't know what you know
I don't know what an intersection form is
that's what the parenethetical was for
It's a matrix?
Oh, 'cause $H^2(X;\Bbb Z)$ is $\Bbb Z^n$ probably
You're looking at intersection numbers on middle-dimensional submanifolds, approximately, DogAteMy ... in the sense of Guillemin & Pollack.
I forgot to say simply connected
01:04
I need to read that at some point
Ugh, I apologize
This is a mess
I'm just gonna go write I think
Hey yall, totally random, but what is a relatively common proof that is really really difficult to understand?
TBH I never really got the Yoneda lemma, but that's probably more a fault of mine than of the Yoneda lemma
In analysis you can kinda skim some proofs and take it on faith than they work
@Akiva thanks!
01:24
@MikeMiller @BalarkaSen So in the end, how do you prove the Hopf degree theorem for general manifolds?
I think the Cayley-Hamilton theorem has a big gap between "what you want to do" and "what you need to do". You want to just toss your matrix where lambda goes, but you can't, because that would be a type error.
^ @CookieToast
Technically no one really proves Reidemeister either
You can just start knot theory with it assumed
The proof isn't too hard, though, to be honest. You just need to figure out what a sane definition of "knot" and is
(and "deforming knots")
@TedShifrin Ninja'd
Oh yeah, and hi chat.
I usually don't do this, but...
in CRUDE, 1 min ago, by Simply Beautiful Art
@user21820 @amWhy @ZacharySelk @Did Now, I know this question is literally the second math.SE question, so yeah yeah historic value, but I really don't think we need this. Would appreciate it if it could be downvoted and deleted.
The question currently has 13 upvotes, so deleting it will be quite difficult. For anyone who agrees with my opinion, please assist.
that is easy problem @Daminark
True
Hahaha that post just made my day
I solved it before as well @Daminark
01:54
$\lim_{effort \to 0}Math.SE(question) = What is a limit?$
@Daminark do you know little bit about analytic manifolds ?
Nope
Question doesn't even make sense.
👍
01:54
maybe you can answer me this I am little bit confused on the following theorem
so one deep theorem says that we can embedd analytic manifold into $R^N$ for some N.
I am little bit confused isn't analytic functions same as holomorphic functions ?
Analytic means you have a power series
So you can talk about real analytic functions and complex analytic functions
yeah sure
but
So either they meant real analytic manifolds or they did intend complex and that was a typo
let us restrict on even dimensional real analytic manifold
that implies right away we can embedd real analytic manifold into $R^N$ ?
I mean real analytic functions is the same as complex analytic right ?
No... just define a function to be non-zero and analytic on R, but zero everywhere else.
01:59
I mean you can take a real analytic function and get a complex one out of it
But I don't think you can do that for manifolds
wait wait

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