« first day (2 days earlier)      last day (2992 days later) » 

3:00 AM
@Nathaniel What's your username on Wikipedia?
 
@BenKovitz shoot me an email (see my C.SE profile) and I'll share it; not a huge fan of the permanence of chat
 
"Prophylactic admonition may trigger novel mischief." Words to live by!
 
By the way, you can also delete chat lines.
Through the menu.
@BenKovitz What is this about exactly?
 
@Cerberus It's a sentence from WP:BEANS.
 
@C.M.Weimer Wait, are you arguing for a question on the origin of deponent verbs? Or one on the origin of verbs?
 
3:05 AM
@Nathaniel Hmm. The Nathaniel I know in person is a reform Presbyterian, a leading Wikipedian, and keeps his Wikipedia identity separate from his name.
 
@BenKovitz Uh oh, you got me
 
@Nathaniel And he's also the sort of person whom I'd expect to enjoy Latin!
 
@Nathaniel Depondent.
deponent even.
 
Despondent verbs are a whole different category.
 
@C.M.Weimer Oh ok, good. I agree that's a good question, if asked well
 
3:23 AM
@BenKovitz Oh, I was replying to your line about the verbal feeling of participles.
Do you know about the grey arrows in chat?
If you click them (or hover over them, if you have the right Greasemonkey script installed in your browser), you will see which line the arrow is a reply to.
@QPaysTaxes School and university. You're learning it in school now?
Good for you!
Excellent!
@QPaysTaxes Yes, at least to people who are interested in language. Why?
 
Etymology was well-known to me even in high school, even before I took that class as a sophomore.
 
@Cerberus Oops, I just didn't hover over the arrow. Careless of me…
 
Heh.
Oh, I don't know what's customary for tag wikis.
 
@QPaysTaxes It's a common word, and I don't know that we will use it in a unique way here, so I would leave it blank
you can't get rid of an excerpt once it's there, so better to err on the side of caution
 
Any objections to changing BC to BCE and AD to CE?
 
3:33 AM
@QPaysTaxes See this, especially the second comment: Allow deleting a tag wiki or excerpt. I misspoke, a moderator can delete it, but it's often not helpful
@C.M.Weimer Ah, forgot about that; no one brought it up on the meta post. I prefer BC/AD, but what do you expect from a reformed Presbyterian :)
 
@Nathaniel It's not a bid deal, but I think it's better to conform to more modern practices.
 
@QPaysTaxes That looks good to me.
 
@C.M.Weimer That's fine; no objection
 
Then again, had it my way, we'd all use Olympian dates.
 
@C.M.Weimer I'd be a little sad to see us drop the traditional Latin abbreviation.
 
3:36 AM
Well, BC is English through and through, so...
@QPaysTaxes Because the Olmypic games were held every four years and the names of the winners recorded, it became standard practice for a while to date everything to its Olympic year.
 
@QPaysTaxes the second part of that makes it more justifiable here, I think; I'll approve that if the other two reviewers don't beat me to it
 
@C.M.Weimer I won't formally object, but I strongly dislike BCE and CE.
 
@QPaysTaxes I'm not Christian, and it doesn't bother me. Whether one agrees with it or not, there's no doubt that Christianity is a huge part of our common heritage and language. I'm OK with either decision, though.
 
I'm not Christian either.
I'm Hadean.
Or possibly Plutonic.
 
Whether we like it or not (I don't care for it either), it is the standard academic practice now, even if some academics writing for a popular audience skip it. (Rather, it's perceived as the best practice now, and honestly, there isn't anything current and better.)
 
3:40 AM
Standard? I wouldn't say that.
 
@QPaysTaxes Well, the various religions are part of the cultural vocabulary. Mostly I think we should follow the cultural vocabulary—that's what a language is.
 
I have a BA (and an MA except thesis) in history, but I did not come across CE/BCE that often.
 
@QPaysTaxes And since this is a Latin site, we should favor traditional, even old-fashioned, Latin customs when it's not completely silly.
 
@BenKovitz I agree.
 
Ha! PC and AD! :)
 
3:42 AM
@QPaysTaxes Why not simply AUC?
 
Oh, I thought you were making a joke: "Politically Correct" and "Anno Domini".
 
BCE/CE is what I was talking about.
 
Or we could use the Mediaeval practice of indictions.
Of all of the above together.
 
@Cerberus AUC makes me think "Area Under the Curve".
 
Hah!
 
3:43 AM
Yes.
 
@BenKovitz Now that I would never have thought of!
 
I can tell this chat room is going to be fun. Rabbit trails of this quality are hard to come by!
 
yes.
 
@QPaysTaxes I have to disagree.
Ah OK!
Haha I understand.
@BenKovitz That's would actually have made a great joke!
 
That's not to say that 100% of the papers I've heard and monographs I've read use it, but it's used in academia without question, and those that still use BC/AD are seen as holdouts. This is Classics I'm in. No idea about other fields.
Likely not at all observed in sciences.
The reactionaries them.
<foghorn>(That's a bit of a joke there son.)</foghorn>
 
3:46 AM
I also have a BA and an MA (except thesis) in classics, but it is my impression that BC and AD are more common.
And I just really dislike CE/BCE, but, again, if everybody wants that, I'll grudgingly happily accept it!
 
@Cerberus I also dislike CE/BCE. To me, they sound a little smarmy.
 
Heh.
 
No thesis!?
 
@BenKovitz To me too, although I know they aren't intended that way. They also sound PC.
 
I'm happy that I'm not the only Classicist here.
 
3:48 AM
I apologize.
I will finish it.
...some day.
 
I'd like to use this chat to talk about something other than Latin grammar.
 
Have you finished your thesis yet?
@C.M.Weimer Sure, why not!
 
I'm working on my PhD dissertation now.
 
Hey, how about them chemical weapons?
Good!
What is it about?
 
@C.M.Weimer What's your topic?
 
3:49 AM
Mm whichever ones you like best?
Alcohol?
Ooh, never tried that one. I do like mustard soup?
Oh, why not? I'm sure it smells nice before you die.
Ow.
Wasabi gas?
Oh, really? What does it smell like?
 
@BenKovitz The religious context for cannibalism in myth
@Cerberus sorry, you asked, too, but that.
 
@C.M.Weimer Excellent. :)
 
Haha.
That is an excellent topic.
 
I've actually given up looking at Latin years ago. Greek is where it's at.
 
Yo yo!
Sure, Greek's nice too.
 
3:52 AM
@C.M.Weimer My grandfather mastered both Latin and Greek, and he certainly preferred Greek.
 
I imagine the religious context of cannibalism is more prominent in Greek texts.
 
My proposal for this SE to incorporate Ancient Greek met with great disapproval from inter aliis Ben Kovitz here and Earthling.
Indeed it is.
 
@QPaysTaxes Let's do that the next time we need a topic.
 
@BenKovitz It's a much more vibrant language, plus there is no real equivalent to Homer and Hesiod in Latin.
Vergil is more Apollonius of Rhodes than Homer proper.
Seneca is a poor man's Sophocles.
etc.
 
@C.M.Weimer Yep. It's due to my experience with the need of groups, especially on-line, to have a single, clear point of focus.
 
3:53 AM
@C.M.Weimer Hmm I am neutral in this case. I understand the arguments either way.
P.S. Inter + acc.
 
Yes, inter alios
Ignosce mihi.
 
I'm annoying, aren't I?
 
Of my admittedly small sample of people I know who are familiar with both languages, I think every single one of them prefers Greek.
 
My mind mixed up inter alia and "et alii" and there you have it.
 
Actually, I think inter + abl. is possible in Mediaeval Latin.
@BenKovitz I don't! Although I like Greek too.
 
3:56 AM
@QPaysTaxes If you're very comfortable with reading Latin, I say pick up a grammar and jump right in. Otherwise, Hansen and Quinn is a very good textbook.
 
@QPaysTaxes Yay! Everyone knows animals speak the truth, when they speak.
 
@Cerberus My first exception! Why do you like Latin better?
 
I used Athenaze unfortunately. It's not bad, but I was already starting uni.
@Cerberus If I could banish Medieval Latin here, I would in a heartbeat.
:P
 
@BenKovitz Hmm I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps because I'm better at it. Or because its strictness pleases me. I really don't know.
@QPaysTaxes You don't know that.
 
@C.M.Weimer Oh dear. How do you feel about Augustine?
 
3:57 AM
@C.M.Weimer Hah, banish it from this SE, you mean?
Fair enough.
I presume you know the relevant XKCD comic?
If not, it's funny.
If you do, then it's still funny, but then I shouldn't be telling you what you already know.
Yeah.
 
I know ergo is fine here, but I really would prefer igitur.
 
@Cerberus From my admittedly still-small exposure to Latin, I am loving the strictness. Latin seems utterly straightforward and elegant.
 
@BenKovitz That's the right description!
 
@Nathaniel When I first read Augustine, it was his confessions where he confessed to hating Greek and Vergil. Well, that's all I need to say about Augustine.
 
Greek splashes around with particles.
 
4:00 AM
@C.M.Weimer Don't blame him; you wouldn't like it either if you got beaten until you learned it ;-)
 
(Yes, yes, we're playing around here, QPays. Keep up!)</foghorn><!--antiquated but still correct!->
 
@C.M.Weimer Ouch.
 
Fair!
 
@Cerberus Even though I can barely express myself in Latin, I'm frequently finding myself dissatisfied when trying to say something in English, preferring to switch to a Latin way of saying it.
 
Haha.
 
4:01 AM
Purposefully, my friend. One can only type so much.
SO
 
@BenKovitz Some Latin phrasings are rather poignant indeed.
 
now that I have access to moderators' tools, whom do I banish first?
 
Oo you do?
 
@Cerberus Now English feels to me like a quagmire of circumlocution.
 
@BenKovitz If you speak like that, then I can imagine that it should!
@C.M.Weimer Congrats!
 
4:05 AM
Now, now, thank you, but no need for that. I actually forget what I can no do. Have to read to see if anything needs to be done, quid mihi agendum est.
 
@C.M.Weimer Actually, my main interest in getting better with Latin is to read stuff from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. That's another reason I didn't want this SE turned into a Classics SE.
 
@C.M.Weimer Is that a direct question or an indirect one?
Hadean grin
 
@BenKovitz Very fair.
 
can't help self
 
@Cerberus Well, I put the indicative there, didn't I!!!!11!
;)
 
4:07 AM
Hehehe.
Fair enough!
 
Mixing languages while mixing wine, sentio quasi Trimalchio sum.
 
Ah, I didn't know you were so nouveau riche as to indulge in several languages at once!
 
Fortasse mane bene loquar.
 
I actually don't know which mood is used after quasi.
 
OK, OK, Trimalchio sine multa pecunia.
See!
did it again
 
4:09 AM
Iam melius loqueris!
Should it be a subjunctive?
 
I think so, actually.
actually, quasi una aetas erat,” Plaut. Capt. prol. 20
Trimalchio at his famous cena was drunk (which I am not) and was remembered for his outrageous behavior and funny grammatical errors.
from Petronius' Satyricon.
 
@C.M.Weimer Hmm I don't think that quasi governs a clause?
"It was one age, as it were."
 
"It was as if one age"
Yes, I think you're right there. It looks to be used like fere.
 
Yeah, so erat is not subordinate to quasi, is it?
OK.
Yeah, like that.
 
Which, of course, Lewis and Short actually mentions.
 
4:13 AM
I wish I could speak Greek.
But my vocabulary is tiny and I couldn't form a single proper sentence.
 
But in good Trimalchionic fashion, it has to be indicative. Otherwise, it would be correct.
 
@QPaysTaxes I'm sure it isn't, to some people!
@C.M.Weimer Ahh touché!
I mean, tactus!
(I think it refers to the subject "I" in French, doesn't it?)
As in, "I have been touched by your sword"?
 
I believe so.
Which makes me wonder if touchée is ever said by a woman.
No?
@Cerberus I mean, it would have to be, odd though that I haven't seen it.
 
@QPaysTaxes How do you mean?
 
@QPaysTaxes tactus is the ppp
 
4:18 AM
@C.M.Weimer How do you mean, you haven't seen what?
 
touché is the past passive participle
@Cerberus touchée
 
Oh.
Well, traditionally, fencing was not for women.
 
True.
 
There's also bienvenu, which I think is also said to women (not bienvenue) when used as a greeting?
 
Isn't that adverbial, though?
Tempus ad dormiendum?
"Mihi dormiendum est" is one way.
You want the gerundive of obligation "I must sleep".
Necesse, debet, etc. are others.
 
4:26 AM
@Cerberus Doesn't sentio govern the clause? How about Sentio quasi Trimalchio esse or Sentio ut quasi Trimalchio sim?
 
Sentio me quasi Trimalchio esse "I feel I am almost Trimalchio", but that's a bit different.
 
@C.M.Weimer Fortasse.
@BenKovitz No, I meant in the Plautus quotation.
 
@C.M.Weimer Hmm. I'm curious to hear more about this.
@Cerberus Oops, I made the arrow point to the wrong sentence. I just meant to refer to the general topic of quasi governing a clause.
 
OK I think your first sentio sentence is possible, in which quasi modifies only Trimalchio. Although in prose you'd probably have to add me as the 'subject' of the a.c.i.
I don't know whether sentio can be constructed with ut.
 
QPays, chill, it'll come in due time.
 
4:32 AM
@Cerberus Oh, of course! Sentio me quasi Trimalchio esse.
@C.M.Weimer How about Sentio me quasi unus Trimalchio esse?
 
That would have to be unum, but I think that use of unus is not possible in Latin.
They might use a diminutive instead, Trimalchiullum or something.
 
@QPaysTaxes I'm not intending to make it an indirect statement. I'm just trying for an accusative-and-infinitive, roughly analogous to "I feel myself almost to be a Trimalchio."
 
@QPaysTaxes You won't be able to freely edit them. You'll be able to approve other people's edits. You need 2000 in private beta to edit without approval.
:)
 
vale
 
@BenKovitz Oh, and, by the way, if you're using an a.c.i., it should be Trimalchionem.
 
4:35 AM
igitur and therefore no indirect statement.
 
@QPaysTaxes Et tu habeas!
 
@Cerberus AH, I was wondering about that. We have all these little conventions for how to extend concepts—not usually covered as grammar, but clearly an important part of it.
 
Yeah, it's probably more like idiom.
 
@Cerberus Ah, thanks, I'm typing way too fast.
 
Unus isn't an article, so it can often not be used the same way a(n) can in English.
 
4:38 AM
@Cerberus Or rather, the whole "accusative" thing in the accusative-and-infinitive is clearly not burned in yet.
 
@BenKovitz My professor made similar mistakes when speaking Latin. They're so damn easy to make for us caseless people.
 
Stupid modern English and its caseless carelessness.
 
flagellates English
flagellates self just in case
 
@Cerberus How about this: Sentio me quasi alterum Trimalchionem esse?
 
Alright, I've double checked, that's grammatical.
But it's saying, "I feel that I am almost another Trimalchio."
 
4:41 AM
@C.M.Weimer Right, I've wandered a bit from your original intention, and am now exploring variations.
 
@BenKovitz That sounds good to me!
Although I suspect quasi + full clause is more common (rather than embedded in an a.c.i. with esse, modifying the 'subject').
 
@Cerberus I just looked it up: quasi = quam si. Now I get it!
 
Yay!
And you can sometimes leave out the verb of this 'si clause', resulting in a use resembling that of fere, "about, in a way", as Weimer said.
So quasi = quam si esset, sometimes.
So your sentence sentio me quasi Trimalchionem esse was like sentio me quam si essem Trimalchio esse.
Which is I believe possible.
You feel that you are as though you were Trimalchio.
 
@Cerberus Excellent. That sounds like it's getting pretty close to @C.M.Weimer's original meaning.
@C.M.Weimer Speaking of which, how about this: Quam Trimalchionē sentio (that is, somehow convert Trimalchio into an adverb)?
 
Yup!
@BenKovitz That doesn't really make sense to me.
 

« first day (2 days earlier)      last day (2992 days later) »