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9:09 PM
@Sha: A contour integral is a complex-valued line integral (not a usual physics work line integral).
 
right, my book calls that a complex line integral
 
If you write $f(z)=u(z)+iv(z)$ and $z=x+iy$, then $f(z)\,dz = (u+iv)(dx+idy) = (u\,dx-v\,dy) + i(v\,dx+u\,dy)$.
 
I have no idea what physicists mean btw, I just stick to the definitions I found in Munkres
 
So it turns into the sum of two "usual" line integrals.
You haven't done work in either physics or multivariable calculus?
(I will not refer you to my lectures thereon.)
 
well, we used that since day one, but they never bothered to explain what it is to us (though in their defence, we don't get their calculus)
 
9:12 PM
I didn't follow all your pronouns.
 
I was talking about line integrals, like $\int \vec F\cdot\vec {dl}$
also, when you write $f(z)dz$
 
$\int_C P\,dx + Q\,dy + R\,dz$ is the work done by the force field $F=(P,Q,R)$ moving a particle along the path $C$.
 
are you talking about forms then?
 
Well, I prefer to talk about forms, but we can do all this without knowing differential forms ... just knowing usual definitions of the line integral.
Namely, parametrize and "pull back" or write everything explicitly in terms of the parametrization.
 
I should be able to handle forms I think, but the definition is fine as well
 
9:13 PM
welcome professor
 
oh, skull is back. how confuzling, all these changes of identity.
 
yeah
 
@TedShifrin I have never seen them write it like this, but I understand it
they use their own symbols, which is fine
 
Hmm ... Well, "formally," $d\vec\ell = (dx,dy,dz)$. By writing things out with a parametrization, one can check that it all makes sense.
 
right
 
9:15 PM
Physicists will interpret $d\vec\ell$ as an "infinitesimal" displacement along the curve, which is in the direction of the tangent vector, so that's why you get work.
I.e., $\vec F\cdot d\vec\ell = \vec F\cdot\vec T\,ds$, where $\vec T$ is the unit tangent, and $ds$ is the element of arclength.
This is how you see work.
 
yes
 
Cool. We agree — for once :)
 
I guess you could say that definition works :P
 
oh oops, I am stubborn?
@Daminark lmao:p
 
Of course you're stubborn. You want to understand things.
 
9:17 PM
hahah, alright fair
 
Don't encourage the pet, @Sha.
 
Meow
Well, how's everything going?
 
disastrous, we have to flee the country
 
I see you sharpening claws ...
 
sorry
 
9:18 PM
flea the country?
 
yea, it's full of bugs here
 
Hello!!

Could you give me a hint how we could find the minimum or maximum (if they exist) of $f(x,y)=\begin{cases}y-x & y\geq x^2 \\ 0 & y<x^2\end{cases}$ ?

Do we have to use the gradient?
 
On all of $\Bbb R^2$, @MaryStar? Try some experimentation.
The function isn't everywhere differentiable, so the gradient is only helpful in the region where it is.
 
We have that $f(x,y)=\begin{cases}y-x & y\geq x^2 \\ 0 & y<x^2\end{cases}$.

If we don't use the gradient, so we have to see the graph? Or is there also an other way to check that? @TedShifrin
 
9:23 PM
yoos
 
I'm suggesting you think about the graph, yes, @MaryStar.
Rehi demonic @Alessandro.
@Alessandro: Wanna give a hint on this?
 
Hey @Alessandro!
 
btw, at the end of the proof of Morera, they say that $F’=f$. Now, I do see the equivalence with the fundamental thm of calculus for 1D, but.. how does it work in the complex case? Does that always hold? I actually just tried to calculate it directly;
$$
F’=\dfrac{\partial}{\partial z}F=1/2\left(\dfrac{\partial}{\partial x}-i\frac{\partial}{\partial y}\right)F,
$$
but that gave me $1/2(\operatorname{Re}f+i\operatorname{Im}f+\operatorname{Im}f-i\operatorname{Re}f\}$. Did I just make a mistake? And can I use some fund. thm of calculus directly?
 
The fundamental theorem of calculus can be proved immediately as you would for line integrals.
Did you use Cauchy-Riemann?
 
well it's proven
but
in 1D there are two versions, while the book only proved 1 version for the complex case
 
9:25 PM
In the case when $y\geq x^2$ we have $z = x - y$ which is a plane, and this has no maximum or minimum, or am I thinking wrong? @TedShifrin
 
@TedShifrin I think so yes
if I remember correctly
 
I mean the 2nd FTC. There is a 1st FTC for line integrals, too.
 
is $\int f'$ the first one for you too?
 
$z=y-x$, you said, @MaryStar. So it has no maximum. (Why?) But why no minimum?
No, that's second, @Sha. :P
 
lol, yea my book messed up the order
right, I have the second
so I have: $f(\gamma(b))-f(\gamma(a))=\oint_\gamma f(z)dz$, for $f$ holomorphic
 
9:27 PM
@TedShifrin Uhm that looks more like Mathei's cup of tea
 
Well, it's beneath Mathein. I gave a hint.
@Sha: Don't use the $\oint$ unless it's a closed curve. Bad habit.
 
it's my boook
 
No, no book will do that.
 
I have very poor intuition for what that kinda quotients look like
 
wanna bet on that?
 
9:29 PM
That symbol is used only for closed curves. Some people put a $C$ in the integral, and maybe that looks like a circle.
I would fire the author of the book if it really does that. Seriously.
 
the author is fine:p but indeed, the circle is odd, I agree
 
people in commutative algebra/algebraic geometry are like "ah, yes, that's just the projection of an hyperbola" and all I see is a quotient ring
 
It's not a hyperbola, @Alessandro. It's the union of two lines.
 
also, referring to him as "it" is a bit harsh, imo:p
 
Oh yes, $z = y-x$. In this case we have that $y\geq x^2$, so $z \geq x^2-x$. It holds that $x^2-x$ has a minimum at $\frac{1}{2}$ which is equal to $-\frac{1}{4}$.
Does this mean that the function has a minimum which is equal to $-\frac{1}{4}$ ?
 
9:30 PM
LOL, @Sha.
 
o nvm, your books does things
anyhow
 
@TedShifrin the one on the left, with the line crossing, it's like a singular quadratic curve, makes sense
 
Looks promising, @MaryStar. Write it up.
 
o, I should have written $f'(z)$ in the integrand
 
That, too, @Sha. :)
It's the coordinate ring of that variety, yes, @Alessandro. So is a function on the union of two lines the same thing as the product of functions on each?
 
9:33 PM
But for example even after spending quite a lot of time on some of them I don't think there's a single drawing in Miles Reid book that I really understood
 
So we have $F(Q)=\oint_\psi f(\zeta)d\zeta$.. and this should guarantee that $F$ is the antiderivative of $f$?
 
Maybe I should take an algebraic geometry class to make sense of the commutative algebra :P
 
Hello all \o
 
I have no idea what that notation means, Sha.
@Studentmath!! Long time no see!
 
Prof. @Ted!
Indeed indeed
How are you?
 
9:34 PM
I'm fine, and how're you? Always glad to know you're still alive and kicking :)
 
Haha
Well, pretty sure I am alive ;) as for the kicking, that too hopefully
 
@Sha: Note that in the statement of the theorem, it really is a closed path, so I accept the circle. But I really refuse to read the garbage they write. Seriously.
Bad notation in mathematics is deadly.
 
When $y\geq x^2$ we have that $f(x,y)=y-x\geq x^2-x\geq -\frac{1}{4}$. Since $-\frac{1}{4}$ is smaller than $0$ (the value of the function when $y<x^2$) it follows that the function $f(x,y)$ has a minimum at $=\frac{1}{2}$ which is equal to $-\frac{1}{4}$.
Is this correct? If yes, could we improve the justification?

About the maximum: In the first case, $y$ is greater than $x^2$, so I think that the value of the function can grow infinitely, i.e. it has no maximum. Is this correct? But how could we justify that formally?
 
If it's an occasional typo, I forgive it. If it's consistent garbage, I will not use the book.
 
9:37 PM
right, but the proof doesn't work with a closed path
 
Right. That's why that notation is unacceptable in the proof.
 
@TedShifrin Hmmm, I'm not sure
 
alright, noted
 
@MaryStar. Be careful, Where is the minimum of $f$?
 
@TedShifrin Oh, it is at $(x,y)=(x,x^2)=\left (\frac{1}{2}, \frac{1}{4}\right )$, isn't it?
 
9:38 PM
@Alessandro: Note that the two lines intersect.
 
looking at your hint $\Bbb R[u,v]/(uv)$ looks like the axis, while $\Bbb R[u]\times\Bbb R[v]$ looks like a product of two lines, hence a plane
 
@Alessandro: Not quite right. The product of the coordinate rings is not the coordinate ring of the product (that's $\Bbb R[u,v]$).
 
However algebraically $\Bbb R[u,v]/(uv)$ are polynomials without mixed terms, which seem to correspond well with elements of $\Bbb R[u]\times\Bbb R[v]$
@TedShifrin Aha, here's my error (or at least my first one)
 
Hmm, @Alessandro, what do you get with $(1+u,2+v^2+v^3)$?
@Alessandro: Your second error is that $\Bbb R[u,v]/(uv)$ is the coordinate ring of the object given by $uv=0$. That's the union of the axes (I suspect that's what you meant).
 
The same I'd get with $(2+u,1+v^2+v^3)$ following what I was hoping to be a better correspondence, looks like I should think before writing :P
@TedShifrin It is
How do I interpret the product of the coordinate rings of two varieties geometrically?
 
9:42 PM
So what function on the union of axes do I have with that ordered pair?
The fact that the varieties intersect should be mirroring the fact that the ideals are not coprime, which causes issues.
So do you know a generalization of the Chinese remainder theorem for $R/IJ$ when $I$ and $J$ are not coprime?
 
@Ted in the end I just calculated it explicitly (apparently I had made an error, but it works out fine now). I don't know if there is a different 'direct/abstract' proof, but I consider the explicit calculation as good enough
 
@TedShifrin No, in all the versions I've seen coprimality is fundamental
 
this theorem actually literally is the 1st version of the fundamental thm of calculus, now that I think of it
if you include what happens in the proof
 
Yes, if you have a path-independent line integral (conservative force).
Otherwise, of course, it all blows up to nonsense.
 
o yea, I forgot about that assumption, but alright
analysis is the best, algebra is boring, logic is (will be) cool, and the rest idk.
lol sorry, I just had to voice my opinion:p
it was uncalled for i guess
 
9:49 PM
Generally, "opinions" like that come from not having enough experience ... or bad teachers.
 
the best math teacher at our school teaches abstract algebra
 
So let's see if $I$ and $J$ are not comaximal what goes wrong with the map $\varphi:R/IJ\to R/I\times R/J$ sending $x+IJ\mapsto(x+I,x+J)$?
 
but experience, sure
 
It's a homomorphism, fine, @Alessandro. So what else is there ... ? :)
 
Wow
Algebra is boring ?
Wow
Wow
 
9:50 PM
Actually do I want $IJ$ or $I\cap J$ there? Let me think
 
I am a mutant @Astyx
 
@Astyx: Admittedly, I had some students who loved my multivariable math/linear algebra course and my differential geometry course and did not find a year of algebra much fun, despite my stellar exposition and exciting homeworks.
 
Algebra is the coolest algebraic stuff there is
 
to me it's all just dull and dry, while analysis is like.. a whole world on its own, almost as good as physics
but I know that's subjective
 
I know lots of students who really find analysis dull and dreary.
 
9:53 PM
most people at our school!
even the Teachers(!) (TAs I mean) sometimes
they go like "oh this is just a stupid analysis proof"
 
Analysis is cool when it involves algebra
 
I'm like NO, it's still beautiful!
 
I think I want $I\cap J$ actually (which is $IJ$ if they are coprime of course) because if I start with $\varphi:R\to R/I\times R/J$ sending $x\mapsto(x+I,x+J)$ the kernel of $\varphi$ is $I\cap J$
 
OK, I accept that.
@Sha: I have always had far better analytic/geometric intuition than algebraic, but years of teaching algebra (and writing a textbook) made me appreciate so much more algebra.
 
Ok so since the CRT is true and the first isomorphism theorem is as well $I,J$ coprimes must imply that $\varphi$ is surjective
 
9:56 PM
Right, surjectivity is the key, which is what I was hinting at, @Alessandro, with the question "Is a function on the union of the axes the same as individual functions on the individual axes?"
 
@TedShifrin hm, maybe it's the intuition that I miss too. I guess that can be 'solved' by considering some mixed subjects. Like, we're about to have a bit of algebraic topology now
 
@ShaVuklia almost :>
 
0:)
 
I'm starting to enjoy quantum mechanics btw
 
@TedShifrin That's actually an iff isn't it? If $\varphi$ is surjective I can find $x\in R$ that gets mapped to $(0+I,1+J)$, that is, $x=1+j$ for some $j\in J$ and $x=i$ for some $i\in I$, hence $i-j=1$ which is exactly what I need to say that $I$ and $J$ are coprime
 
10:00 PM
Yup, @Alessandro. So that's why I gave you a function that was $1$ at the origin on one line and $2$ at the origin on the other line.
But what's the easiest proof (e.g., for that OP) that there's no ring isomorphism?
 
@TedShifrin Ah, I see, while on the left they intersect in the origin so that can't happen
 
@Sha: What I've always found most interesting and beautiful in mathematics is areas of overlap of different aspects of mathematics. That's one reason complex geometry, differential geometry, etc., appeal to me so much. It's also why I liked writing my multivariable book, emphasizing all the interplay back and forth between calculus and linear algebra.
Right, @Alessandro.
 
Good night everyone
 
@TedShifrin sounds nice indeed!
night Astyx
 
@TedShifrin Hmmm I don't know what kind of proof you're thinking about but I don't see an easy one
 
10:09 PM
@AlessandroCodenotti: Since $u+(uv)$ and $v+(uv)$ are zero divisors on the left, I think there's no choice (up to scalars) but to map the first to $(u,0)$ and the second to $(0,v)$. But then you see you can't get a surjection for the reason we've discussed.
 
@TedShifrin Makes sense, that's also where the map $\varphi$ I used above sends them
 
Presumably you have to get an isomorphism to $\Bbb R[u]$ when you restrict to $v=0$.
Etc.
 
Alternatively you can show that the RHS contains non-trivial idempotents whereas the LHS doesn't
 
Hmm ...
I guess that's a manifestation of the same phenomenon.
 
I guess $R/(I\cap J)$ and $R/I\times R/J$ can still be isomorphic when $I$ and $J$ aren't coprime, just not through the map $x+I\cap J\mapsto(x+I,x+J)$ in general?
 
10:19 PM
No, I don't believe that.
 
Probably - but off the top of my head it's easier for me to remember that spec (A) is disconnected iff A \isom A_1 \times A_2 iff A has nontrivial idempotents :p
 
Yeah, the normalization of the union of the two axes ("blow up the origin") will have coordinate ring $\Bbb R[u]\times \Bbb R[v]$. :)
 
Hmmm, consider $R=\bigotimes\limits_{n=1}^\infty \Bbb Z$, $I$ the ideal generated by $(1,0,0,0,\cdots)$ and $J$ the ideal generated by $(0,1,0,0,\cdots)$, I believe that in this case $R/(I\cap J)$, $R/I$, $R/J$ and $R^2$ all isomorphic to $R$
 
You mean $\bigoplus$?
There's always weird stuff with non-Noetherian. Ugh.
 
Uhm I think a direct product works as well here
 
10:26 PM
You wrote tensor.
 
you're right
 
That confuzled me.
 
I meant $\prod\limits_{n=1}^\infty\Bbb Z$ , my bad
 
Interesting, actually. I'm too rusty on this. Not sure if your isomorphisms work with direct sum. Probably not.
Hmm, probably yes. Oh hell, I dunno.
 
I'm not sure whether a direct sum works here actually, I think $R\times R$ could be weird with a direct sum
 
10:28 PM
I wasn't thinking about that one.
A lot of the commutative algebra theorems want finitely generated or Noetherian ...
 
$R/I$ and $R/J$ still look isomorphic to $R$ to me, but I'm not sure about $R^2$
Definition 3.1: A ring will be called good if it is commutative, Noetherian and integral
 
integral over what?
 
Sometimes in Italian we say that a ring is integral to say that it's an integral domain, I wasn't sure whether that can be done in English too
 
ohhh, we say domain to be short.
integral is used for extensions ...
 
Some people also say a principal ring or a factorial ring to abbreviate PID and UFD in Italian
We use integral for extensions too, but it's clear from context if you have an algebra or just a ring
@MatheinBoulomenos I summon thee! Does $R=\prod\limits_{n=1}^\infty\Bbb Z$ with $I$ generated by $(1,0,0,0,\cdots)$ and $J$ generated by $(0,1,0,0,\cdots)$ work as an example?
 
10:36 PM
I've seen "principal ring" used when it's not an integral domain
 
(Is the summoning of an algebraist a dark ritual forbidden by the holy church of Rome?)
Googling suggests that principal ring for PID and factorial ring for UFD are used in English too but are somewhat unusual
 
Summoning Mathein may be be injurious to our health.
 
He might be asleep now, which I should be too
 
It's not often that you see principal rings that are not PIDs anyway... at least not from my experience - the one time I've seen it was in one of the proofs in proving properties about Dedekind domains
 
I thought Astyx had left.
 
10:39 PM
Somebody say algebra?
 
Heya @Fargle.
 
Hi @Ted!
 
Algebra: Work on this, @Fargle.
 
:|
 
Night, @Alessandro.
 
10:43 PM
Yeah I think I'll leave now, good night everyone!
 
$X/(x^2 - y^2)$ means it's the quotient of $X$ where $x^2 \equiv y^2$?
 
@GFauxPas: Anything in that ideal is set =0.
 
right, okay
 
sup chat
 
heya Eric :)
 
10:46 PM
how goes it
 
\o
 
This is a tricky one, @Ted. I have a rough idea of why there shouldn't be such an isomorphism but I'm not sure how to formalize it.
 
11:03 PM
in ZFC, axiom of foundation states that for every non empty set x, there exists an element y such that x and y are disjoint sets. that makes absolutely no sense to me since if x contains y, it necessarily has y in common??
 
@Obliv x contains y as an element, but y does not.
 
oh right woops
 
how is an element a set? Ugh.
 
Professor, do you prefer to use the word "member" or "element"?
In the context of sets.
 
I have usually said element.
 
11:12 PM
My rough idea is that something should be going wrong with the constants.
 
Right intuition, @Fargle.
 
So if we're considering an iso $f : \Bbb R[u] \times \Bbb R[v] \to \Bbb R[u,v]/(uv)$, we need $f(u,0) = u$ and $f(0,v) = v$ by degree arguments.
(Or well, WLOG we need that.)
 
(You mean equivalence classes ... presumably you could take any nonzero multiples, but yes.)
 
Right.
 
But that map is definitely not injective as $(u,v)\rightsquigarrow 0$.
 
11:19 PM
How so? I thought it would map to $u + v$.
 
aha .... well, you're doing $(u,0)+(0,v)$ and I'm doing $(u,1)\cdot (1,v)$. :P Who wins? :)
 
Let's see. Clearly $f(1,1) = 1$ by the properties of a ring homomorphism, so that $f(u,1) = f((u,1)\cdot(1,1)) = u \cdot 1 = u$, so $f$ cannot be injective.
I follow you now.
Wait hang on no that was bad.
 
Well, do we have $(1,0)\rightsquigarrow \bar 1$ and $(0,1)\rightsquigarrow \bar 1$?
I was mapping the other way when I thought about it.
Addition and multiplication are definitely having issues, which boils down to your worry about constants.
 
We must have that $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ must map to constants (or well, equivalence classes of constants) whose sum is 1, but then there is some $r \in \Bbb R$ such that $(r,0)$ maps to the same element as $(0,1)$ by field properties.
 
There are too many zero-divisors in the domain.
 
11:27 PM
That's another good way to look at it.
Either way, I'm satisfied that there is no isomorphism.
 
LOL ... poor OP :)
On an analysis note, here is a good one for you.
Oh, did your family celebration in Atlanta go well?
 
It did. We had a decent time and made it back without injury---my ideal trip.
 
Do you usually injure yourself on trips?
 
Well, no, but one can't help but be prepared for the inevitability.
 
That's a bit too fatalistic, even for you. :)
 
11:32 PM
perhaps, it's the presence of the family that facilitates injury :P
 
You must know Fargle's family well.
 
Depends on which part of the family.
 
Helllloooooo
 
hiiii
 
I'm stuck T_T
 
11:35 PM
askaway
 
Suppose B ⊂ C(K, R), where K compact. Assume that B is equicon-
tinuous and pointwise bounded on K. Prove that B is bounded on K.
Does this have something to do with the Arzela Ascoti theorem?
K is compact so
K is closed and bounded
Or that could also mean that every open cover has a finite subcover
Oh wait... B is contained in C(K,R) . Sooo ooooo B could be compact?
My head hurts
I had a rough week. Family drama never ends
I missed you @skull
 
gee, thx
me too
 
People miss skull? I never realized :D
 
:-D
 
You don't need Arzela-Ascoli, @usukidoll, I don't think. $K$ lives where?
Oh, it doesn't matter. Use equicontinuity and compactness of $K$ to estimate how far $f(x)$ can be from $f(x_0)$.
OK, off to the kitchen with me.
 
11:44 PM
cya Professor
 
Ahhh I should try that
 
11:56 PM
how is $\sin z$ (complex) not a bounded function? it's entire, so according to Louiville, it should be constant:l I mean, I don't really know how to envision it exactly, and from what I've googled it looked bounded (unless my notion of boundedness of a function is a bit iffy)
nvm I remembered to google
 

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