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4:01 PM
That means I'll write $px-xe^x$ for some real $p$ and look for where that's maximized.
That requires $\dfrac{d}{dx}(px-x e^x)=p-(x-1)e^x=0$
Which in turn means solving the equation $(x-1)e^{x-1}=p/e$.
If $p>0$, this is fine and there's a single well-defined solution.
But if $p<0$, then $px-xe^x\to+\infty$ as $x\to -\infty$.
...I'm losing the thread of what I'm saying. Urgh.
 
I want to hit that equation with Lambert W, but I think I am missing the point here
 
It's relevant, actually.
But I'm not formulating things well atm
 
I'm confused as well
 
I think I can maybe explain things as such.
(trying fresh)
Suppose I look at the real branches of the Lambert W function:
Blue is the k=0 branch, yellow is the k=-1 branch.
Now, the shape of that is actually easy enough to explain: All branches of the Lambert W function satisfy the functional equation $W(x)e^{W(x)}=x$.
 
By definition right ?
 
4:14 PM
So if you regard $x$ as a function of $w$, you just have $x(w)=we^w$. So what's plotted is just y=xe^x flipped.
Right.
What is decidedly less obvious is the follow. Both of those are still defined for $x<-1/e$, but they're complex there
However, due to how the branches are related, if you ask Mathematica to plot them you find that they've got equal real parts and opposite imaginary parts.
If in particular I ask for the real part for x<0 of both functions, I get this plot:
 
Oh yeah I remember plotting that in mathematica
 
One notes that the real parts have a square root discontinuity at $x=-1/e$
 
What do you mean by "square root discontinuity" ?
 
branch point, sorry
 
Still don't get it
 
4:19 PM
so both are of the form $y-y_0=a\sqrt{x-x_0}$ for $x$ near $x_0=-1/e$
That looks right visually, and it can be verified explicitly.
 
Mmmkay
 
(Simplest way to do that is to start from $x=we^w$ and expand near $w=-1$ to get $x=-\frac{1}{e}+\frac{1}{2e}(w+1)^2+O((w+1)^3)$. From that we deduce $W(x)=-1\pm \sqrt{x+1/e}$ for the two real branches near $x=-1/e$)
Anyways, an observation: These two branches of Lambert-W have the same real parts and opposite imaginary parts for $x<-1/e$, and are real-valued for $-1/e<x<0$. So if I take the average of them, I'll get a function which is real valued for all $x<0$.
That gives this picture:
And now there's a surprise. The green function is continuous through the singularity!
 
Interesting
 
(my interpretation is that by adding them together one effectively cancels out the square root singularity, so that the result is smooth)
 
Mmm
 
4:26 PM
(But I've always felt like there should be a better statement than that.)
 
Yeah that's cute
 
Yeah.
I think it's even a little cuter if you flip the axes:
 
thanks semi
 
This means the average of both branches is smooth
 
very intresting
 
4:28 PM
So it would seem.
Smooth and real-valued.
However, it no longer satisfies the functional equation.
I changed the aspect ratio b/c whatever
The significance is that the orange-blue curves are together just the plot of $y=xe^x$.
 
Plot[LambertW[-1, x] + LambertW[0, x], {x, -10, 0}]
 
So you can construct points on the the upper part of the green curve by drawing a horizontal line, intersecting that with $y=xe^x$, and constructing the midpoint.
@Astyx That'll give a plot like what I gave above. To flip it I used ParametricPlot
 
Right
 
What I'm looking for, though, is actually something a bit subtler.
Namely, I'm looking for a toy problem in which that green line arises naturally.
To get what I mean by that, suppose I consider the function $f(x)=(x-1)e^x$. (The $x-1$ is for future convenience.)
 
That looks interresting indeed
 
4:35 PM
Then one can take the Legendre transform $f^*(w)$ of this, defined as $f^*(w)=\max_{x}(wx-f(x))$.
Naturally, to maximize that we look for critical points
...oh. I shouldn't have changed that. Not sure why I thought I should.
Just replace $w$ back to $p$ above.
$\frac{d}{dx}(px-f(x))=p-f'(x)=p-xe^x=0$
So the critical points of $px-f(x)$ occur when $p=xe^x$.
When $p>0$, this is fine: There's a single solution to $p=xe^x$, given by $x=W_0(p)$, and this corresponds to a global maximum of $f(x)$.
Hence the Legendre transform is just $f^*(w)=wx^*-f(x^*)$ where $x^*=W_0(p)$.
 
Have you looked for results on this topic ?
 
Yeah. Might try again.
But the point I'm getting to is that the relation between $p$ and $x^*$ is just the Lambert-W function so long as $p>0$
 
10 hours ago, by Typhon
@AkivaWeinberger if I were to prove some conjecture in Z/1 and show that it being true in Z/n implied it were true in Z/{n+1} could I then conclude it is true for the integers?
 
hi chat
 
@Typhon I suppose so. I don't think I've ever seen a proof like that.
 
4:42 PM
So for positive arguments I've got a variational meaning to $W_0(p)$.
 
Hi, Eric!
 
what is $Z/1$ supposed to mean
 
$\Bbb Z/1\Bbb Z$, which would be the trivial ring with one element I assume @EricSilva
 
However, if $p<0$ I've got a problem: $px-f(x)=px-(x-1)e^x\to +\infty$ as $x\to-\infty$
 
oh the zero ring got ya
 
4:43 PM
So the critical point at $x^*=W_0(p)$ ceases to be a global maximum once $p$ crosses zero.
 
@AkivaWeinberger but I mean... that would be interesting to consider.
 
@AkivaWeinberger how is the progress of your conjecture?
 
is Z/n as n continually increases just.... Z?
 
@Typhon It definitely would
 
collatz conjecture would be provable by induction in that i believe
like... trivially so
 
4:44 PM
Additionally, there's also a second critical point which shows up at $x=W_{-1}(p)$. But this only corresponds to a local minimum, not even a maximum.
 
what does taking a limit of groups even mean
 
Being true for all rings of the form $\Bbb Z/n\Bbb Z$ doesn't mean it's true for $\Bbb Z$
So if that's what you meant, then I misunderstood you
@LeakyNun Which one?
 
@AkivaWeinberger the rational one
 
^yeah you would need a transfinite step to prove for the integers
which means it wouldn't help at all lol
 
@LeakyNun I already know the proof of that one. Unless you mean Typhon's variant?
 
4:46 PM
@AkivaWeinberger oh... I don't know the proof of that one
 
So it seems like giving a variational meaning to $W_0(p),W_{-1}(p)$ isn't obvious once $p<0$.
 
I've only managed to prove it for $n\le2$ :p
 
@LeakyNun ah
 
Moreovoer moreover, what I really would like is a variational interpretation of that average :S
 
Yeah, the proof is kinda crazy
Want a hint?
 
4:47 PM
let us write two polynomials $x^n - a^n$ and $(x+1)^n - (a-1)^n$
 
@Semi when you're not busy do you think you could explain to me why Legendre transforms matter/are a thing (as a physicsy dude). We used them a bunch in a grad functional analysis class i took but they were super unmotivated
 
both have rational coefficients
 
Wait Typhon he might not want the full solution
 
Yeah, Legendre transforms are weiiird.
 
He might just want a hint
 
4:47 PM
that was a hint
 
Oh, OK
That was a different hint than the one I was gonna give
 
My professor was like "If you think about things from convex analysis they're a natural transform to consider!" but that didn't help me at all @Semi
 
I can give a motivation in the realm of saddle point integration, though.
 
oh cool im into that
 
Namely, suppose someone gives you an integral of the form $g(p)=\int e^{f(x)-px}\,dx$
 
4:50 PM
mmk
 
To do a saddle-point analysis of that, we look at $px-f(x)$ and hope that it's got a suitable well-defined maximum value at some $x=x_0(p)$.
If so, we should be able to approximate it as $px-f(x)\approx p x_0-f(x_0)+\frac{1}{2}c (x-x_0)^2$
And then we have the saddle-point approximation $g(p)\approx e^{f(x_0)-p x_0}\int e^{-\frac{1}{2}(x-x_0)^2}\,dx$
 
very intrigued
 
But that last integral is just a constant, so one basically has $g(p)\sim e^{f(x_0)-p x_0}=e^{-f^*(p)}$
Where $f^*(p)$ is the Legendre transform of $f(x)$.
 
oh interesting
 
So the Legendre transform in this context tells you what a saddle point approximation of the given integral transform does to the exponent.
That's actually the context in which it arises for me right now. Not something I knew about until within the last year, or at least i'd not seen it presented as such.
(The reason I had all those minus signs is because when doing saddle-point analysis it's really more natural to think in terms of "where's the min" rather than "where's the max". As for why the Legendre transform is defiend to give a max... shrug)
 
4:58 PM
hmm ok
idk how much it helps me intuit but it's cool nonetheless
 
Yeah.
Main place you see it in physics is in thermo and mechanics.
In the former there's definitely a variational context but we usually don't go into enough detail for that.
 
@AkivaWeinberger wait... isn't Z/0 equivalent to Z?
since all numbers are congruent to themselves mod 0?
 
For the latter, it's basically using the Legendre transform to give a mapping from the tangent bundle to the cotangent bundle. (I'm stealing from Wikipedia at this point.)
 
@Typhon it is
 
so if we use reverse induction...
 
5:00 PM
@Typhon Yes
 
if we prove that being true for $Z/n$ implies truth for $Z/(n-1)$ then we prove it for the integers
 
@LeakyNun Any cool math ?
 
Anyways.
 
@Astyx not really
 
:(
 
5:02 PM
pardon :p
 
@Typhon You'd only really need one step there, though, the one that says if it's true for $\Bbb Z/1$ it's true for $\Bbb Z/0$
 
would you want some meth instead?
 
and that's probably a very hard step
 
What I'm saying above is that I get $x^*=W_0(p)$ in the process of taking the Legendre transform $f^*(p)=px^*-f(x^*)$ of $f(x)=(x-1)e^x$. Or, at least, I can do so for $p>0$.
 
@AkivaWeinberger hmmm
good point
 
5:02 PM
@Astyx well, there's Akiva's (proven) conjecture that for real $a$ and positive integer $n$, if $a^n$ and $(a+1)^n$ are both rational, then $a$ is rational
 
For $p<0$, though, there's no unique maximum
 
@LeakyNun To be clear
 
And for $p<-1/e$, there's no local maximum at all.
 
I stole that from an MSE post
 
but there is mine that we can examine
 
5:03 PM
which has a very good answer on it
 
Math is better than meth
 
There are still critical points, but they no longer have an obvious variational interpretation.
 
i wish to locate the counter examples to my conjecture
all the counter examples
 
So it was less a conjecture than a puzzle
 
I'm trying to see if there is one nonetheless.
 
5:03 PM
@LeakyNun That's nice enough
 
@Semi i never thought about it as going between $TM$ and $T^{*}M$, that's p cool ill think about it more thoroughly
 
5
Q: Proving that if $a^n$ and $(a+1)^n$ are both elements of a polynomial field, then $a$ is also an element of that polynomial field?

TyphonIn the main MSE chat @AkivaWeinberger proposed the following conjecture they found from an old question. If $a$ is a real number and $a^n$ and $(a+1)^n$ are both rational, then $a$ is a rational number. I have tried several times to prove it and I just wish to know how to prove it. Since I...

 
@EricSilva For some details, see here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legendre_transformation#Applications
The mechanics instance of it is mentioned first, then the thermodynamics instance.
(The application to probability theory is basically what I was explaining above, with the rate function serving as $f^*(p)$, but in simpler terms.)
 
ahhhh this explains why ive heard people say it turns the Lagrangian formalism into the hamiltonian formalism (not that i understand those beyond simple definitions)
 
Right.
 
5:06 PM
I am thinking about the following integral operator, which is a bit strange...
$$\int e^{\int}$$
 
That gets a bit disguised in the physics form, though. There one has $p=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}}$ as more-or-less a definition.
So the expression $H(x,p)=xp-L(x,\dot{x})$ just looks like a definition.
There's really a variational context there, but we don't usually bother to make it precise.
 
i always struggle to read physics bc i feel like people don't define things in a way that makes sense to me (at least up to this point)
 
Well, stuff like Lagrangian/Hamiltonian mechanics often times just gets used like a cookbook
Rather than trying to sustain an underlying motivation.
Which comes from the fact that you don't need to know why the formulas used are the right ones in order to actually use them in a problem.
 
i guess this just troubles me a little
like to not know why what you're doing is the right thing to do
but i guess it gets the job done
 
Yeah.
 
5:10 PM
Let $K=\int e^{\int}$ it is tempting to do $W(K)=W(\int e^{\int})$
 
A good physicist will do both, of course.
back later, need to track down lunch
 
see ya
 
@Semiclassical Isn't that an oxymoron ?
 
Perhaps, a more relevant thing will be:
Let $y=f(x)$ and $z=ye^y$. Then $W(z)=y=f(x)$
 
@EricSilva: At some point you might want to look at Spivak's book on mechanics. He spent his life learning differential geometry so that he could get to a more mathematical understanding of physics. His original plan was to write on relativity, but somehow I don't think he'll quite make it that far.
 
5:23 PM
he has a book on mechanics? that's awesome
 
(Of course, there are still errors. And one can argue that we mathematicians don't always have the physicists' intuition or depth of understanding ... even if we're pedantic.)
He wrote it about 6 years ago
 
Ohi Ted
 
So, how are the kidlets' presentations going in bootcamp?
Ohi @Astyx.
 
ill see if i can take a look
im seeing their first lecture on dynamics in 30 mins
 
Aha ... how exciting :)
 
5:24 PM
@Ted When did you decide you wanted to do math for a living ?
 
they should be doing some stuff about complex analysis right now but im not there
 
Astyx, it was between math and language/linguistics.
Ultimately, I thought had more talent for the math.
 
Goes on Amazon to check out Spivak's physics book: sees "Hardcover prices starting at 441 dollars"
 
Like, I'm hesitating (in the best of scenarios) between the ENS and Polytechnique
The former is more research-oriented and would allow me to study deep math and stuff
 
Say what? $441!
I guess Spivak doesn't sell himself from Publish or Perish any more.
 
I bought a copy when it first came out and he also gave me a copy. But I gave one of them away.
Well, it must be out of print.
 
yeah
that's like how much i spend on food in 2 months
 
The latter is more general (hence the name of the school), would probably allow me to earn more money, and wouldn't close any doors to research, but the curriculum being more general also means I would do less maths
Last but not least, the ENS is more prestigious for maths stuff
 
didn't they produce like 9 or 10 fields medalists
 
So I'm (supposedly) facing a dilemnia where I have to chose if I want to do (fundamental) maths as a living or not
@EricSilva Not sure about the figures, but quite a few yes
 
5:29 PM
Laurent Schwartz (1934): 1950 Fields Medalist
Jean-Pierre Serre (1945): 1954 Fields Medalist
René Thom (1943): 1958 Fields Medalist
Alexandre Grothendieck: 1966 Fields Medalist
Alain Connes (1966): 1982 Fields Medalist
Jean-Christophe Yoccoz (1975): 1994 Fields Medalist
Pierre-Louis Lions (1975): 1994 Fields Medalist
Laurent Lafforgue (1986): 2002 Fields Medalist
Wendelin Werner (1987): 2006 Fields Medalist
Cédric Villani (1992): 2010 Fields Medalist
Ngô Bảo Châu (1992): 2010 Fields Medalist
 
I bought Spivak's physics book for like $40 when it came out.
It was okay.
 
from the wikipedia for ENS people
 
Yeah, so 11 if I still know how to count
Anyway, I was wondering what you guys think
 
that's wild
 
It's tougher in France, Astyx, because there are so few academic options. If you're good, you're funded by CRNS for years. But there aren't the zillions of varied-level teaching jobs the US has. On the other hand, the US has less and less commitment to tenured faculty.
@ERicSilva: I can no longer find Spivak's Publish or Perish website. I should email him and make sure he's ok.
 
5:31 PM
@EricSilva They also have the highest nobel per capita
While Polytechnique is 6th
 
how do the Grandes Écoles even work
 
Astyx: I would make sure you have plenty of computer experience/knowledge and go for what you're most interested in.
 
do you have to be admitted
@Ted hope he's ok
 
I don't think aiming for a Nobel or Fields medal is the way to judge your future :)
 
Of course :p
Right now it's definitely maths, but I fear it might change and I might get stuck doing maths all my life
@EricSilva Yeah you sit competitive exams for the entrance
 
5:33 PM
ah ok so there are entrance exams
idk of any US schools with entrance exams, idt it's really a thing here
 
Yup, the Classes préparatoires aux grandes écoles (CPGE) prepare you over a tw year course to take those exams
 
but getting admitted at some places is basically a crapshoot no matter how good your application is
do you take those after high school? or during high school like a cram school kind of thing
 
What age group is high school ?
You take them when you're around your 20s
 
Well, Astyx, you're not so interested in applied questions, but I would still encourage you to have a strong computer programming/database background.
 
i feel like it's what you guys call lycee
 
5:36 PM
@EricSilva Then yeah
 
Yeah, Spivak's Publish or Perish website is totally gone.
 
@TedShifrin What for ? The ENS ? Or Polytechnique ?
 
5
Q: real values of p in equation involving floor function

Durgesh Tiwariif $\displaystyle \sin \alpha = p \bigg\lfloor \int^{1}_{0}\{\ln x\}dx\bigg\rfloor \;, \alpha \in (0,2\pi)$ .Then $p$ is ? given $\lfloor x \rfloor $ is floor function of $x$ and $\{x\} = x-\lfloor x \rfloor$ using $\{\ln x \} = \ln (x) - \lfloor \ln x \rfloor $ and $0<x<1.$ So $-\infty<\ln(x)<

 
No, for your future in case you want real world job options other than "maths." :)
 
learning computer programming is like just a good idea generally as a safety net no matter what you do
 
5:38 PM
Oh right, this can still be arranged in the not-too-distant future, but do you have any opinion concerning what school I go to ? This has to be decided soon enough (like, by the end of the month)
 
If you think your interests might ultimately be a bit broader, then go to Polytechnique and give yourself more latitude. They're both tremendous.
 
i made my university decision at least 30% based on how good the local food was personally
 
I also fear if I go to the ENS I might seclude myself
 
That doesn't apply to two (essentially) Parisian schools, Eric.
Why seclude, Astyx?
 
ah good point
none of the schools i applied to were even within 400 miles of each other
 
5:42 PM
I dunno, it's obvious the student life at polytechnique is more "fun" (I'm not sure how to put it)
 
OK, I just emailed Spivak.
 
This might be irrationnal though
 
No, it's not irrational. Go with your gut.
 
you don't wanna spend a long time somewhere that isn't fun probably
 
My gut is all over the place, that's the problem :p
 
5:43 PM
it's important to like being where you are
 
I visited Polytechnique and for about two weeks in 1980. But I interacted with grad students.
 
The problem being I have no idea where I'm going
 
Astyx, of course, it's a nice problem to have. But I get it.
Hi, dangerous driver @Alessandro.
 
Anyhow, I need to eat
See ya, thanks for your input
 
5:45 PM
bye :)
 
in retrospect i think i shouldve put way more thought into where id go to college
 
I think I only applied to three places back in 1969-70. Got into two.
I put a lot more thought into graduate school options.
But, even so, I only applied to 5 or 6. Nowadays people apply to 10-15.
 
i applied to like 4 or 5 but i didnt even think i would be able to go to college until like summer before my senior year of high school cause my parents were in a devastating financial situation
 
Ah, well, you seem to be making the most of your opportunity, so you are to be applauded.
 
@TedShifrin I only applied to one, but I would probably have applied to a lot more if I had been in the US
 
5:47 PM
i ended up getting in everywhere i applied but i basically chose the places to apply based on food and if i could deal with their school colors for four years bc i didnt have a lot of time to "search around" as it were
 
Yeah, I certainly would never have done just one, @Tobias!!
That is pretty dumb, Eric.
 
yup
 
I already started overthinking where to apply for my Master
 
Alessandro grows up so quickly ...
 
i also didnt really have anyone to guide me at the time bc my parents knew nothing abt college, being from a different country and having never finished secondary school
 
5:48 PM
I understand, Eric.
 
@TedShifrin I still have another year before finishing my bachelor
 
I vaguely knew that uchicago had "good math" but i didnt know much more than that vague feeling
all in all it worked out though
 
I'm now butting in and giving advice to a first-year student at Berkeley (whom I know indirectly through one of my former students and one of his teachers in college while he was in high school).
My comment still stands, @Alessandro.
 
Fair enough
 
at least im confident that my grad school search will be wayy less haphazard when the time comes to get on that
 
5:50 PM
@EricSilva What university are you at?
 
True enough, Eric.
 
university of chicago @Tobias
 
We have three chatters from Chicago, Tobias.
Although one hasn't been around too much lately.
 
@EricSilva Ahh, so you did end up somewhere with a good math department after all
 
hello
 
5:51 PM
yeah this place is a very good fit for me in terms of rigor, i was lucky to find out about this school
 
Hi @shai
 
Consider the main graph in the question.
 
So, what's your answer, Abcd.
 
The people on physics stack exchange said that slope is not zero at t=0
I can't understand how is slope not zero at t= 0
 
Look at the original graph. The slope is $-1$ at $0$.
 
5:53 PM
@TedShifrin I will find that later. Right now I am concerned about the slope of the main graph at t=0
 
That's what I am talking about.
 
i'm trying to think of how to form a topology on N with a basis of open sets iff sum of reciprocals of the members of the set converge, a intersection and finite union clearly are still open, i.e. the sum of convergent series is convergent, but i'm not sure how to apply this to the empty set or to the whole number line, any ideas on how to alter the definition
 
@TedShifrin It seems to be zero. How is it -1 when the curve hasn't even begun at t=-0?
 
The value is $0$, but the slope is clearly negative, @Abcd.
 
@Abcd The value of the graph is zero, but the slope is not
 
5:54 PM
@TobiasKildetoft Now that's confusing
 
Imagine extending the graph to the left a little bit, if you insist @Abcd.
You're overruled, @Abcd. Tobias and I said the exact same thing. :)
 
@shaihorowitz But that would make all singletons open and hence make this the discrete topology
 
@TedShifrin That was exactly what I needed!!!!! Thank you so so much!!
 
@shai: It needs to be arbitrary union and finite intersection. But this is just a BASIS, not a description of all the open sets.
 
@TedShifrin I got so confused, physics stack exchange people couldn't explain that in simple language
 
5:56 PM
Time to watch the bootcamp talk about dynamics
Bye for now chat
 
Bye, Eric.
Well, @Abcd, once you verbalized your concern, it was an obvious remark.
@shai: At any rate, you only need to check the criteria for a BASIS. Not trying to show that that criterion describes all open sets.
 
yeah, its the universe that always gives me problems. how do i treat the empty set and set N, no matter how i base a definition on convergence and divergence i cant quite get all the rules to work out
 
As I said, this is NOT a necessary and sufficient condition for an arbitrary open set. Only for a basis.
So you don't even think about the universe.
What criteria must you check for a basis?
 
both the empty set and the universe are memberes of the basis
 
Every point must be in some basis element. And given the intersection of two basis elements and a point in that intersection, ...
No, @shai, that's not necessarily true.
Review your definitions.
 
6:00 PM
ah, thanks
 
Back later ...
 
from the definition of basis it looks just possible gonna do some thinking
bye
 
rehi
 
How to solve this question?
 
6:16 PM
@Abcd How are we supposed to know what those letters represent?
 
@TobiasKildetoft It's given that omega and a are constant. Y must be y coordinate, x must be x coordinate in the x-y plane
 
@Abcd I mean in the possible answers
 
@TobiasKildetoft Oh. Sorry. Wait. Here's a guideline to those:
@TobiasKildetoft ^
 
Bob
if any of you math experts felt like looking at my question at math.stackexchange.com/questions/2349763/… I would appreciate it. Bob
 
6:37 PM
@Bob you have an answer? Did you need more input than the answer gave?
 
6:51 PM
anyone here know about the idea of the proof of stirling numbers of second kind ?
S(m+1,n) = S( m,n-1)+n S(m ...
 
7:11 PM
hello, please is it correct to say that $x^{\ell}+y^{\ell}\geq \frac{1}{2^{\ell}}z^{\ell}$ where $z=x+y$
?
@Astyx hello
 
7:26 PM
@Vrouvrou Yes, that is correct, since the left hand side is minimized when $x=y$ (when we fix $x+y$).
 
Hi, I am new here, can anyone tell me how do I enable Mathjax for chat?
 
@Shadow There is a link in the room description
 
@Daminark hey
 
7:42 PM
@TobiasKildetoft Thanks
 
Welcome @Shadow
 
Hey everyone!
 

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