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11:02 AM
@Secret Yeah, your conditions basically mean that $a$ is surjective and $b$ is injective (being the right inverse of $a$). This only implies that they are bijective if the set is finite
 
I see, yeah, it's very hard to find my way where the maps go when the structure became infinite
 
in this case you would have found a counter example by just considering the set of all maos from an infinite set to itself with the usual composition
 
11:20 AM
@Euclid First, you need to find the primitive roots of $p^k$, then primitive roots of $2p^k$ are odd primitive roots of $p^k$ and $p^k+\text{any even primitive root of}~p^k$ if $p$ is an odd prime number.
@Euclid If $p=2$, then $2p^k=2^{k+1}$ just has primitive roots for $k=0,1$.
 
Hi @iwriteonbananas
 
@user91500 can you give me a simple proof for it? id like to know why odd primitive roots of $p^k$ and $p^k$+any even primitive root of $p^k$
 
Hey Balarka
 
What up
 
Just chillin
Well, doing some problems on cobordism
But I'm stuck
How bout u?
 
11:31 AM
cobordisms are cool stuff
Not working on anything right now, but I should.
 
Do u know anything about framed cobordism?
 
Perfect
Why is $\Omega_0^{fr} = \Bbb Z$?
Like
A framing of $\{pt\}$ is a homotopy class $[pt\to BO]$
 
I am not very familiar with the notation. Is that framed cobordism classes of 0-manifolds?
 
So two framings are the same if the two points are in the same path component, but BO is path connected
Yes
 
11:32 AM
But there are non-cobordant 0-manifolds.
 
But there should somehow be two distinct framings, one corresponding to $1\in \Bbb Z$ and one to $-1$
Right
 
Hi chat
 
@iwriteonbananas Hmm
 
Nevermind me, I'm being dumb
 
It should be maps to O, not BO, right?
 
11:39 AM
@euclid You just need to see the proof of several theorems on primitive roots of composite numbers. You can find them probably in any book on elementary number theory. See for example David M. Burton's book.
 
Yeah. Framing is a nullhomotopy of $pt\to BO$, so a loop $S^1 \to BO$
There's two of those (up to htpy)
 
Righto
 
A framing on X is a choice of a frame (element of O) at every pt on X. so a map X --> O, not X --> BO
 
@user91500 i have seen theorems in Burton but it speak about which number has primitive root and which one has not
 
11:46 AM
Yeah
 
Ok. I actually don't know the rigorous story; what is the definition of $\Omega_k^{fr}$? Framed cobordism classes of $k$-manifolds inside a sphere of dimension which, exactly?
 
@user91500 for finding primitive roots of $p^k$ we have to find primitive roots of $p$ and other primitives are $a^m$ that (m,k)=1 when $a$ is a primitive root.this is correct?
 
@BalarkaSen They don't all need to embed into the same sphere, dimension of the sphere could vary
 
@euclid Yes, you are right.
 
Do you know about $(B,f)$ structures?
 
11:51 AM
@iwriteonbananas Err. That sounds a little complicated.
 
@user91500 but how we can find that $a$ is primitive root of $p^k$ or $p+a$? we have too test it or there is theorem?
 
When you have a fibration $f:B\to BO$ you define $\Omega_*^{(B,f)}$
 
Hmm.
How do you do that?
 
and then $\Omega_*^{fr}$ is just $\Omega_*^{(EO, proj)}$
@BalarkaSen I forgot lol
 
Erk
But I trust you :)
 
11:53 AM
It's a very un-enlightening definition
 
fair enough
I intuitively think of framed cobordism inside a sphere of high enough dimension; stably it shouldn't matter.
but... yeah
 
Hi chat sup?
 
@euclid To find primitive roots of $p^k$, you don't need $p+a$.
 
How to write (√3 + i)^100=2^99 (a+b)?
 
11:56 AM
@user91500 explain please.even for $p^2$?
 
@iwriteonbananas Do you know the Pontryagin-Thom story?
 
Ugh yeah somewhat
Do you?
 
sorta
 
Do you know the Thom Pontryagin map?
 
The one $\pi_{n+k}(S^k) \to \Omega_{n}^{fr}$, yeah
 
12:01 PM
Oh, I don't know that one
What is it?
 
so take a map $S^{n+k} \to S^k$, and take preimage of a point.
that's a framed $n$-submanifold of $S^{n+k}$.
 
and this indeed works modulo homotopy on the left and modulo framed cobordism on the right. it's a bijection between $\pi_{n+k}(S^k)$ and framed cobordism classes of $n$-submanifolds of $S^{n+k}$ actually I believe
neat generalization of Hopf degree theorem, IMO
 
Hmm
Wait
What's the framing of your preimage?
 
@euclid If $r$ is a primitive root of $p^k$ then $r+p$ is also a primitive root of $p^k$.
 
12:04 PM
Normal bundle of the preimage is pullback of the normal bundle of the point in the codomain
which is trivial
 
so just pullback a frame of that (it doesn't matter what frame you pullback upto framed cobordism)
 
@user91500 let be we know all of primitive roots of $p$ how we can all of primitive roots $p^2$,$p^3$,..,$p^k$?
 
It's a pretty neat exercise to compute $\pi_3 S^2$ using that. google told me you can do that for $\pi_4 S^2$ too but I don't know how to compute framed cobordism classes of 2-manifolds. everything should be framed cobordant to the sphere, but.
 
How about $\pi_4S^3$?
 
12:10 PM
yeah you can do that too. (it's $\Bbb Z$, right?)
you can compute the 1st stable homotopy group pretty easily
 
No it should be $\Bbb Z/2$
 
oh, hmm.
Oh I am dumb of course
The deal is that $\pi_1 SO(3)$ is $\Bbb Z/2$
So there are two framings on the circle in $S^4$ upto framed cobordism
 
Hmm, what does that help?
 
Yeah so the key fact is every 1-manifold is framed cobordant to the circle
 
Framed cobordant too right?
 
12:13 PM
so every map $S^{k+1} \to S^k$ comes from framings on a circle in $S^{k+1}$.
@iwriteonbananas Yeah, not just cobordant but framed cobordant. That's what I said too.
 
Haha oh yeah
 
yep
 
Where does $\pi_1SO(3)$ come into play?
 
that's what classifies framings on a circle in $S^4$.
so in general you have an isomorphism $\pi_1 SO(k) \to \pi_{k+1}(S^k)$
 
@BalarkaSen Why?
 
12:16 PM
By the same logic you used above to classify framings on X by maps X --> O
 
I don't see it sorry. Framing of a circle is a nullhomotopy of a map $S^1\to BO$
 
I actually don't understand how you're thinking of it as nullhomotopy. Normal bundle of a circle in $S^4$ is a 3-bundle on $S^1$. So a framing is a choice of a 3-frame (an elt of SO(3))to each point on $S^1$. the map $S^1 \to SO(3)$ is given by sending each point to the 3-frame at it
 
@user91500 also some one told me if $r$ is primitive root of $p$ then $r$ or $r+p$ is primitive root of $p^k$.
 
Why $SO(3)$ and not $O(3)$?
 
Hmm. I guess it doesn't matter for circles, because it's bound to land on a connected component of O(3), which is SO(3), right?
 
12:23 PM
@Euclid For example, suppose you want to find the primitive roots of $3^3$. Since $2$ is a primitive root of $3$, you must choose primitive roots of $3^3$ from the numbers $2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23,26$. Note that $p^{k-2}(p-1)=6$ and just for $a=8,17,26$, $a^6\equiv 1\pmod{3^3}$, so primitive roots of $3^3$ are $2,5,11,14,20,23$
 
Oh yeah, of course
 
hi
hi
 
You can in fact generalize the map, $J : \pi_k SO(n) \to \pi_{n + k} S^n$, known as the J-homomorphism. It sends an framed $S^k$ inside $S^{n+k}$ to the map $S^{n+k} \to S^n$ according to the bijection mentioned above
 
hi @BalarkaSen
@iwriteonbananas
 
12:26 PM
@BalarkaSen I went to lecture yesterday for algebraic top was excellent.
 
@Adeek Harro
 
definitely we will discuss many algebraic top this semester
 
the P-T story says it's an isomorphism for $k = 1$ and $k = 2$ (??). I don't know anything about $k =3$, but it fails for $k = 4$. lotta 4-manifolds not even cobordant to the 4-sphere let alone framed
 
I also started reading michael atiyah it is very nice.
 
@Adeek neat
 
12:27 PM
@user91500 why we have to find them between 2,5,8,...,26?
 
@iwriteonbananas What's the version of P-T you know?
 
Hold on, 1 sec
 
Hi.
It there any way that this can me sense geometrically ? $$\cos(a)+\cos(b)=2\cos(\frac{a+b}{2}) \cos( \frac{a-b}{2})$$
 
what is meant with "induction is impossible!"
 
@euclid Since $2$ is a primitive root of $3$ and either $2$ or $2+3$ is a primitive root of $3^2$ by corollary of Lemma 1 in page 160 of Burton's book. See also Lemma 2 in this page cleverly.
 
12:40 PM
@Null That depends on context
 
@TobiasKildetoft it is meant in the context of physics I assume, (or philosophy)
 
@Null You assume? Where did you see it?
 
@TobiasKildetoft on some smbc comic smbc-comics.com/?id=2386
 
@user91500 how about if we want to find primitive roots of $p^k$? when we know primitive roots of $p$?
 
@Null Yeah, that refers to the non-math induction
 
12:49 PM
Induction in the math sense is still deduction in the logical sense.
 
@euclid First, find a primitive root for $p$ like $r$ such that $r^{p-1}\not\equiv1\pmod {p^2}$. Then primitive roots of $p^k$ are $r+mp$'s such that $(r+mp)^{p^{k-2}(p-1)}\not\equiv 1\pmod{p^k}$.
 
@user91500 when we use that this fact that primitive roots of $p^k$ are $r^m$ that (m,k)=1?
 
Oh hi guys
 
Anyone ?
 
@BalarkaSen Ehh wait
 
1:02 PM
@Euclid I don't think such a thing is true but if $r$ is a primitive root of $p$, then the other primitive roots of $p$ are $r^k$'s such that $(k,p-1)=1$.
 
@iwriteonbananas I didn't see that :)
 
I'm glad
 
can someone honestly say, why this question was upvoted?
 
@BalarkaSen Can I throw an inequality at you?
 
I don't think it is of high quality
 
1:04 PM
@Euclid Note also that $m\in\mathbb N\cup\{0\}$ such that $r+mp<p^k$.
 
@N3buchadnezzar If you want.
 
So framing of a 0-fold $M^0$ is map $M^0\to O$
 
Right
 
Now to each of the points in $M^0$ I want to assign $1$ if the point is in the same component as $I$ and $-1$ otherwise
Then sum over all points
 
$$
\int_{-\pi}^{\pi} \frac{\mathrm{d}u}{\left| 1 - \frac{|z|}{r}e^{iu}\right|^q}
\leq \left( 1 - \frac{|z|}{r}\right)^{-q-1}
$$
 
1:06 PM
This should give the iso $\Omega_0^{fr}\to \Bbb Z$
But why is that independent of the cobordism class of $M^0$?
 
Yep, it does.
If you have two points with each of them having oppositely oriented framing, can you nullcobord it?
 
Any idea why that inequality holds as when $q>1$ and $r$ tends to zero and $|z|$ lies somewhere in the unit disk?
 
@ZachHauk still there?
 
Hey hey! How many sequences $(a_1,\dots,a_n)\in\mathbb{F}_q^n$ are there such that $a_i\neq a_j$ for all $1\leq i<j\leq n$ and $a_1+a_2+\dots+a_n\neq 0$. Where $p$ is a large prime.

It seems to me that there are $p(p-1)(p-2)\dots(p-n+2)(p-n)$ such sequences. There are $p$ choices for $a_1$, $p-1$ choices for $a_2$ since we can't pick $a_1$, and so on until and including $a_{n-1}$. When picking $a_n$ we can't pick any of the $a_i$ where $i<n$, and also can't pick $-a_1-a_2-\dots-a_{n-1}$, so there are $p-(n-1+1)$ choices.
 
@user91500 thank you very much.it was a great help. i have some other questions.is it possible you give me your email address?
 
1:09 PM
@N3buchadnezzar Err, hmm.
 
@BalarkaSen I dunno, can we?
Also, isn't that injectivity?
 
Ugh.
 
Yeah, you can. But you're right, I was confused.
 
Friday is the exam of the course I T.A.
 
Ok, so suppose you have a 0-manifold which is nullcobordant. Then that bounds a bunch of framed intervals.
 
1:12 PM
And the exercises I am being sent are making me depressed already
 
Any framing on the interval gives opposite framing on the boundary points according to the convention of orientation of boundary components, yes?
 
Why is the orientation of the framing at the endpoints of the interval opposite?
Ok fine
 
Hello
 
@iwriteonbananas Because by convention normal at a boundary point of the upper half plane points outward. But yeah.
 
@euclid You are welcome. Sorry, I work on my thesis so don't have enough time to help you more.
 
1:19 PM
can someone say why this question was upvoted? I feel it has no sign of effort by me. math.stackexchange.com/questions/2091200/…
 
@BalarkaSen So given two oppositely framed points, what's the framing on the interval which nullcobordisms the two points?
 
I can downvote it if you really want...
 
@AlessandroCodenotti I really don't care, but Cauchy-Product seems still mysterious to me
 
@user91500 if you help me for this question it will be a great help math.stackexchange.com/questions/2076742/…
1
Q: brun's method and primitive roots

alex morfilet be $N(x) = \sum\limits_{d|p - 1} {\mu \left( d \right)} {F_x}(d)$ that $p$ is a prime number and ${F_x}(d) = \frac{{{x^2}}}{{4d}} + O(x{p^{\frac{1}{2}}})$ that $x+1=g(p)$ and $g(p)$ is the least primitive root modulo $p$. Applying Brun's method to $N(x)$ in conjunction with ${F_x}(d)$ in orde...

 
@Null You mentioned you tried a definition but you get something with $\infty$
That's already more effort than the average question.
 
1:24 PM
@SteamyRoot MSE hit rock bottom in that context, I suppose
 
hi chat
 
@Semiclassical welcome to the realm of numbers, sets and more!
 
1
Q: brun's method and primitive roots

alex morfilet be $N(x) = \sum\limits_{d|p - 1} {\mu \left( d \right)} {F_x}(d)$ that $p$ is a prime number and ${F_x}(d) = \frac{{{x^2}}}{{4d}} + O(x{p^{\frac{1}{2}}})$ that $x+1=g(p)$ and $g(p)$ is the least primitive root modulo $p$. Applying Brun's method to $N(x)$ in conjunction with ${F_x}(d)$ in orde...

 
I have seen the following in the script: $\displaystyle \mathrm{exp}(x) = \lim_{n \to \infty} \left(1 + \frac{x}{n}\right)^n$ and $\displaystyle \mathrm{exp}(x) = \sum_{k=0}^{\infty} \frac{x^k}{k!}$. It is told that these are the two opportunities to define the exponential function. On the one hand, is that not ordinary to write $f$ for the function, and $f(x)$ for the value of the function at $x$? If so, why these are definitions of the functions and not for some values $x$ only?
 
@Null Maybe, yes. The review queue for "close votes" is never at $0$ because there's so many people who post questions without a single mention of attempting it themselves.
 
1:26 PM
@iwriteonbananas Here's a picture from Milnor:
 
what's that? A unit normal being transported along a Klein bottle to show it's not orientable?
 
The bottom one is how a framing on the interval cobordism looks like.
@SteamyRoot Nah.
It's an example of a framed cobordism.
 
@BalarkaSen I don't understand
 
On the other hand, why is that possible to define functions in that way? How can a function that gives many values be represented as a one limit or a value of one summ?
 
Don't the endpoints have the same framing there?
 
1:29 PM
@Kirill I'm not seeing the problem. In either case you're defining the $\text{exp}$ function based on how it acts on an arbitrary real $x$.
 
Um, no. The vectors point in different directions on the end (circle) they live in
 
I guess you could also write $\displaystyle \text{exp}:x\mapsto \sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{x^n}{n!}$, but it's just a matter of notation.
 
I don't get it
 
One vector points up, the other points down. That means they are clearly not the same frames, doesn't it? What's bugging ya?
 
Is driving a car agreeing to the possible consequence of an accident? (logically)
 
1:32 PM
@Semiclassical it is about the definitions. I was learnt that a function is something like $\mathbb{N} \to \mathbb{R}, x \mapsto x^2$, the thing that orders every $x$ a definitive value under $f$. At the same time I was learnt that $lim$ is a value, one value. So I am asking myself how can a function be described only with one value...
 
@BalarkaSen Framing of interval $I$ is a map $I\to O$?
 
It's one value in the variable you're taking the limit of.
 
@iwriteonbananas Sure, yeah.
 
There can be more than one variable in the problem.
 
So it's either in $SO$ or in $-SO$
 
1:34 PM
In writing that limit, you're taking $n$ to infinity. You are not saying anything at all about $x$.
 
How can framing at endpoints be opposite?
 
is the Intervall [$a-\epsilon,a+\epsilon$] defined for $\epsilon=0$?
 
Hence that limit imposes no constraint on $x$.
 
@Semiclassical get it, thank you!
 
It's not unlike the definition of the derivative as a difference quotient: $f'(x)=\lim_{h\to 0}\frac{f(x+h)-f(x)}{h}$
you've still got $x$-dependence in there.
 
1:36 PM
math.stackexchange.com/questions/1860079/… can you explain first paragraph of first answer?
 
@Semiclassical I understand.
 
mmkay
 
@iwriteonbananas Now I am confused too. The picture clearly implies the framing at the ends are different, so there must be something wrong.
 
If I had a map $f: \mathbb{Z}-\{0\}\to \mathbb{Q}$ such that $f(x)=\frac{1}{x}$, then it is easy to check $f$ is injective with a fixed point $f(1)$. However it is easy to see that $f$ is not surjective since $\textrm{img}(f) \subset \mathbb{Q}$ despite that $|\mathbb{Q}|=|\textrm{img}(f)|=\aleph_0$. Is this the the correct way to understand it?
 
1:45 PM
@Secret the way to understand what?
 
I am trying to use an example to understand the difference between a bijection and a permutation for infinite sets
 
@Secret a permutation is a bijective map from a set to itself
so no, that example is not a good place to start
 
I know that for a permutation, it is a bijection that maps from some set S to itself, but is it true even for the uncountably infinite case, that every element in S appears only once in the image of such permutation?
 
@iwriteonbananas So I guess the boundary framing doesn't really work that way, but I don't see why. The picture is correct.
 
1:48 PM
Other question:
 
I know who you are. (unrelated)
 
You said disjoint union of framed circles is cobordant to framed circle
 
What's the framing on the pair of pants?
 
@BalarkaSen I took and just asked about it instead =)
0
Q: Prove $\int_{-\pi}^{\pi} \left| 1 - \frac{|z|}{r}e^{iu}\right|^{-q} \mathrm{d}u \leq \left( 1 - \frac{|z|}{r}\right)^{-q-1}$

N3buchadnezzarI have been trying to follow the lines in a proof I saw online. You can read the snippet on page 6. The part of the proof I am stuck on can be stated as follows Let $r$ ble close to $0$ and $p>1$ then for every $z \in D$ $$ \int_{-\pi}^{\pi}\frac{\mathrm{d}u}{\left| 1 - \frac{|z|}{r}e^{iu}...

 
1:50 PM
That's the nontrivial bit. It depends on the framing you have on the two circles though.
@N3buchadnezzar Good idea, I couldn't really have helped.
 
Yeah, no worries.
I just feel studpid for not seeing it
 
@BalarkaSen Do you know where I can find a picture or something?
 
For permutations in finite set, it is easy to show that every element appear exactly once in the image.
For countably infinite case, one have examples such as in $\mathbb{Z}$ where the map is "multiply x by -1", and in general it is also easy to show that every element appeared exactly once via some induction type proof. However I am not very sure about the uncountably infinite case. Is it possible for a permutation in an uncountable set $S$ to map every $x$ to every unique $y$, yet the image is a subset of $S$?
 
@iwriteonbananas The point is you extend the framing on $S^1 \sqcup S^1$ to $S^1 \times [0, 1] \sqcup S^1 \times [0, 1]$, till the crotch of the pant. Then use the non-manifold level set (wedge of two circles) to modify the 1-frame to the trivial 1-framing on the circle.
 
can someone please talk with me privately? I feel analysis is way more difficult than my linear algebra course. Maybe I'm just a certain type of student, but maybe that is normal. So how can I make analysis easy again?
 
1:53 PM
@iwriteonbananas I don't :(
 
One reason is: in analysis we ONLY do proofs, no counterexamples, no calculations, only proofs.
 
Ew :O
Well, it's normal, I suppose. And at least at my university, analysis is also considered way more difficult than (linear) algebra
 
Apropos my question. Turns out I'm wrong. But I don't know how to prove Stanley's claim.
 
We also had one analysis teacher that was really evil. First he writes a proof on the blackboard giving some explanation along the way. Then he writes down a counterexample to what he just proved.
And asks us: which one is wrong, proof or counterexample?
4
 
1:56 PM
I like that!
 
"make Analysis great again" will be my election slogan, so support me :d
 
"we're going to have a big, beautiful Foundation for calculus"
"and the engineering department is going to pay for it"
 
lol
 

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