« first day (760 days earlier)      last day (4260 days later) » 

7:13 PM
I have an embarrassingly simple question about line integrals, if anyone is available.
The question in the book asks to compute the line integral with respect to arc length of $\int_C (x+y)ds$ where $C$ is a triangle with vertices $(0,0)$, $(0,1)$, and $(0,1)$ traversed in a counterclockwise direction
 
OK. So, how did you go about it?
 
so I made three functions: $g_1(t)=t(1,0)$, $g_2(t)=(1,0)+t(-1,1)$, and $g_3(t)=(0,1)+t(0,-1)$
 
The key is to write how $x$ or $y$ varies as a function of the other variable along each piece of the path.
 
and then I had that $s'_1(t)=1$, $s'_2(t)=\sqrt 2$, and $s'_3(t)=1$ where $s_i$ is the arclength function associated with $g_i$
does that seem right so far?
 
what is an Arc length function?
 
7:20 PM
I suppose what I did essentially does that, it just introduces a parameter in the process
$s_i(t)=\int \lVert g_i(t) \rVert dt$
 
Hmm, OK proceed...
 
My book defines line integrals with respect to arc length as follows - if $f$ is a scalar field then the line integral of $f$ with respect to arc length along $C$ (parametrized as $g(t)$) is given by $\int_a^b f(g(t))s'(t)dt$, where $s'(t)=\lVert g'(t)\rVert$
 
@MichaelBoratko Two of your points are the same (0,1)?
 
@skullpatrol Sorry, that's a typo - should have been $(0,0)$, $(1,0)$, and $(0,1)$.
The functions $g$ are correct
 
@skullpatrol My bad; did not notice that. :((
 
7:26 PM
@KannappanSampath OK, so then I have that the line integral of $f$ with respect to arc length is as follows:
$\int_0^1 t dt + \int_0^1 (1-t+t)\sqrt 2 dt + \int_0^1 (1-t) dt = \int_0^1 1+\sqrt 2 dt = 1+\sqrt 2$
but the book has $-\sqrt 2$ as the answer
 
user19161
@matt You have a lovely default avatar!
 
user19161
@jonas I would say all reading, no complaining instead.
 
First up, to compute the line integral, don't you need a vector function?
That's one I am unable to follow.
 
Yes, I think for a general line integral you're computing the dot product of a couple of vector functions
 
The line integral of a vector function $\vec{f}$ along a path $\mathcal{P}$ is denoted by $\int_\mathcal{P} \vec{f} \cdot \mathrm{d} \vec{s}$ where $\mathrm{d}\vec{s}$ is a small line element.
 
7:35 PM
Yes, but when it is with respect to arc length some of that is decided for you
Wow, sorry didn't realize it would do that
 
@user34522 Sorry it took a while, but I have added an answer. If it is too terse, I can expand whatever is unclear.
 
@MichaelBoratko No, it's fine.
 
@KannappanSampath Just after you arrived, I started working on a question for a newish user.
 
@robjohn Oh, I see. I am trying to understand Boratko's line integral unsuccessfully.
 
@KannappanSampath The line integral with respect to arc length is just like the line integral of a vector function, however "the vectors [involved] are always tangential to the line".
 
7:41 PM
I see. But, I have not learnt this.
 
(I should mention that I made a mistake above, I should have written $s_i(t)=\int \lVert g_i'(t) \rVert dt$, otherwise $s_i'(t)=\lVert g_i'(t)\rVert$ doesn't make much sense :)
 
I'll look around.
 
Wow - Steenrod is a high-school student, and he is already worrying about having to re-learn stuff in grad school!
 
OK, thanks!
 
@MichaelBoratko What exactly is the problem you are trying to solve? It looks as if you are getting a couple of line-integral concepts intermingled.
 
7:42 PM
@robjohn The problem is: Calculate the line integral with respect to arc length of the following
 
@JohnSenior relearn as in having forgotten, or relearn as in the topics have changed?
 
$\int_C (x+y) ds$ where $C$ is the triangle with vertices $(0,0)$, $(1,0)$, and $(0,1)$ traversed in a counterclockwise direction
 
@robjohn Not sure - I was a bit amazed by our conversation a little while ago
 
@WillHunting Thank you! I like it too, a lot. : )
 
@robjohn ``Re"-learn because they are done differently.
 
7:45 PM
@JohnSenior Link or it didn't happen.
 
But, hey, how's that ``Re"-learning?
@PeterTamaroff Huh?
Hi @Matt. Has your Gravatar changed? But, it's sorta nice.
 
@KannappanSampath I'm talking to OldJohn =) What do you mean?
 
@robjohn My book (Apostol's Calculus) defines general line integrals first, and then they go on to say that a line integral of a scalar field $f$ with respect to arc length along $C$ which can be parametrized as $g(t)$ is defined as $$\int_C f \, ds=\int_a^b f(g(t))\lVert g'(t) \rVert dt$$
 
@KannappanSampath Yep, I deleted my email address from my profile : )
 
@PeterTamaroff here
 
7:46 PM
@PeterTamaroff What do you mean by ``Link or it did not happen" ?
@Matt Hmm, I see.
 
@KannappanSampath Google "Pics or it didn't happen"
@JohnSenior Hmm, he's gonna have a bad time....
 
@PeterTamaroff Just seemed a strange conversation to have with a 16 year old
 
I wonder when it'll change.
 
@JohnSenior I highly doubt he really knows what he's doing... not to be the bad guy, but y'know....
 
I hate WebAssign: grab.by/fOhU
 
7:49 PM
Oh, people, please, do not be cryptic. Be as explicit as you can. :D
 
fail totaling scores.
epic. fail.
 
@PeterTamaroff indeed
 
@JohnSenior : )
 
@Gnintendo Say what?
 
look at the image: grab.by/fOhU
I got every point correct, but it thinks it's out of 43, so I'm not getting a 100 on the assignment'
 
7:51 PM
@KannappanSampath That algebra book he mentioned actually looks very interesting
 
@MichaelBoratko and that is the same definition as given in the link you posted.
 
@JohnSenior True, I liked it. It was a gentle push into the Cats I am dealing with now. I did not read it fully. But, I liked whatever I read.
 
@KannappanSampath I never really got into Cats - so I might read it to find out what I have been missing all these years :)
 
So the integral from $(0,0)$ to $(0,1)$ would be $\int_0^1(0+t)\,\mathrm{d}t$
and the integral from $(0,0)$ to $(1,0)$ would likewise be $\int_0^1(1+0)\,\mathrm{d}t$
Now the integral from $(0,1)$ to $(1,0)$ is a bit more complicated. $g(t)=(t,1-t)$ so $\|g'(t)\|=\sqrt{2}$.
Thus you would get $\int_0^1(t+(1-t))\sqrt{2}\,\mathrm{d}t=\int_0^1\sqrt{2}\,\mathrm{d}t$
 
For (0,1) to (0,0) I had $g(t)=(0,1-t)$
 
7:58 PM
@MichaelBoratko That is fine $\|g'(t)\|=1$
 
@Gnintendo Well, there is probably a tiny bit wrong. You got 95%, that's good enough, right?
 
Ok, so I get that the total integral is $1+\sqrt 2$
 
"traversed in a counterclockwise direction"?
 
Peter
Peter Tamaroff: No, every individual point was correct, you can add up all the points possible
there was only 41 possible
and no, that's not good enough ;)
 
@MichaelBoratko That agrees with what I wrote, so I'll agree :-)
 
8:02 PM
So the book's answer is just incorrect then (they had $-\sqrt2$)
 
@MichaelBoratko Everything is positive and the direction of the curve has nothing to do with integration with respect to arc length, so I would say the book is wrong.
 
OK, thanks for the help. This is the first problem on integration with respect to arc length, so I wanted to make sure I understood it correctly before doing many problems incorrectly
 
@MichaelBoratko They must think that the integral over the two legs of the triangle somehow cancel and the integral over the hypotenuse is in a "negative" direction. From the definitions I am seeing, that does not seem to be the case.
 
@robjohn Great, thanks again for the help!
 
Hi guys.
 
8:09 PM
@MichaelBoratko How do you involve the "counterclockwise" condition in your answer? Try doing it "clockwise" and see what you get.
 
@JonasTeuwen yo
 
@JonasTeuwen Hi! :)
 
Hello!
 
@skullpatrol I traversed the points in a counterclockwise manner. I believe it is a theorem that the direction does not matter in integration with respect to arc length.
 
8:15 PM
Just a suggestion to illustrate the theorem :)
 
8:25 PM
@MichaelBoratko It doesn't matter because no matter whether you have $g(t)=(t,1-t)$ or $g(t) = (1-t,t)$, $|g'(t)|=\sqrt{2}$
clockwise, counterclockwise; it doesn't matter.
 
Right, and the other two are the same so there doesn't seem to be any way it could be $-\sqrt 2$
 
8:54 PM
@MichaelBoratko My point exactly :-)
@Gnintendo Is this a grading program?
@anon: It's been a while, but since you were the last to edit this question, I thought I'd let you know that I corrected $(2s+1)^2=4s^2+4s+1$ :-)
@HenningMakholm: good day! how goes life?
 
@robjohn It's a very strange question. For some reason I've come across it several times in the past few days.
 
@HenningMakholm It has been flagged a bit recently, so that may be why.
 
@robjohn Life goes good overall. It is a few days more than a year since my first MSE post. And I've just made Deputy -- they're handing those out like candy nowadays.
 
@HenningMakholm What is a Deputy?
 
9:02 PM
I have 68 flags. :-)
 
@HenningMakholm Wow. I think I still only have 5...
yep
 
@robjohn Mods don't flag posts for mods after all. :-)
 
@KannappanSampath yeah, but in my first year, that is all I got. I was 50% helpful :-(
 
Hmm - its taken me 97 days to collect 9 of those - deputy seems a long way off
 
@JohnSenior As a moderator, I probably won't ever get that badge now.
 
9:04 PM
Speaking of badges, Asaf got Epic last week.
 
@robjohn Unless you stop being a moderator at some point
 
@HenningMakholm Wow! That's one I am trying for. :-)
 
@HenningMakholm that is impressive
 
@robjohn Being a moderator you could just flag a lot of stuff and then immediately declare it to be helpful. Or perhaps you don't even get a flag button to press?
 
I think I am 4% of epic :)
I think "guru" is my best badge so far
2
 
9:06 PM
@JohnSenior I am 70% (35/50)
 
@HenningMakholm EVIL! :-)
 
@robjohn excellent
 
@HenningMakholm we have one, but I've not used it yet. I spend too much time clearing or handling flags to want to make new ones.
 
Where can one check how often one has hit the rep limit?
 
@MichaelGreinecker Be logged in, and then load math.stackexchange.com/reputation -- there will be a counter of "days reached 200 rep" at the bottom of the report.
 
9:08 PM
@MichaelGreinecker go here and it show how many times at the bottom.
@MichaelGreinecker yeah, what Henning said ;-)
 
Aha! - 6% of epic, not 4% - I will award myself a beer :)
 
Thanks, so I have to hit 49 further days...
 
By the way, the trigger for the Mortarboard-Epic-Legendary progression is not "hitting the rep cap", but "earning 200 rep". So 19 upvotes and 1 accept will count towards Epic, but not actually hit the cap.
 
Yeah, capping doesn't really count for anything except the joy of capping.
 
9:12 PM
Do I vote to close this as "Not a Real Question"? My vote will nail the coffin, in this case. So, asking...
 
@KannappanSampath I think my vote was "Not Constructive".
 
Good grief! - we are adults and we are discussing badges like primary school kids with "gold starts" :)
 
@HenningMakholm Hah, I mean that. It is subjective.
 
This is the kind of question one is allowed to ask on MO but not on MSE.
 
@KannappanSampath That or too localized
 
9:13 PM
@JohnSenior We're secure enough in our adulthood that we don't have to be ashamed of being seen playing a game now and then.
3
 
@HenningMakholm Good point :)
 
@KannappanSampath You should go for NarQ, just to see the software explode when it cannot decide which options has most votes.
 
@KannappanSampath I don't see how this is more subjective than requests for introductory books or roadmap questions.
 
@MichaelGreinecker Hmm, first up, there is a definite way in which I will teach an abstract algebra course. My notes will be a geometric mean of Jacobson's text and Dummit and Foote's.
 
@MichaelGreinecker not many people will be writing a discrete math book, so that's why I mentioned "too localized"
 
9:16 PM
But, you all won't agree with it... (let's say).
Artin will use his text in his course.
 
@robjohn I think I kept it cuz I thought it was an arithmetic error on the OPs part rather than an unintentional typo, but I can't really remember that post.
 
Lang's text will be used for graduate teaching...
 
I think one could rewrite it as something like "How to structure a Discrete Math course" without really changing what an admissible answer would be. And if the book gets published, it will be relevant to many people.
 
@KannappanSampath certainly not Emil
 
@MichaelGreinecker Interesting. And since I already voted to close it, I might even be able to live with migrating it. :-)
 
9:18 PM
La. La.
 
So, how are we to decide what should be in their notes? @MichaelGreinecker
@robjohn No, the Michael variety.
 
@robjohn Did Emil write an abstract algebra textbook?
 
@HenningMakholm He wrote a nice text on Galois theory.
 
@HenningMakholm I don't know, but he'd have a hard time using any book in a lecture :-D
 
@robjohn I see. I don't know but have heard about his influential lectures.
 
9:21 PM
@robjohn Sure. I was trying to say that the phrase "his text" implied that "he" had to be Michael.
 
@KannappanSampath The question What should be learned in a first serious schemes course? on MathOverflow has 107 upvotes and 31 answers, so why shouldn#t this be possible with a discrete math course.
 
@HenningMakholm Oh, I see. My bad :-) I was just making dead mathematician jokes.
 
Bill Thurston and Emil Artin walk into a bar ...
 
@MichaelGreinecker But, certainly, the question here was not about teaching a course. It was about what we would like to see in their notes. Right? Moreover, it does not say who the intended audience are.
@HenningMakholm Was that a joke by itself? :-)
 
@KannappanSampath I hope not.
 
9:28 PM
@KannappanSampath The OP mentioned the target audience in a comment.
I edited to get the question more focused and hopefully reopened: math.stackexchange.com/questions/164927/…
 
@MichaelGreinecker Well, I'll cast my vote the last... It looks answerable , perhaps.
The kernel is already a vector space, so there is no need to put "span" in front of it (though it did cause me to wonder what the "spanker" of a matrix might be...). — Gerry Myerson Jul 12 at 12:35
"spanker" of a matrix, sigh.
@Henning Missed that one. :(
 
It wasn't funny anyway.
 
9:52 PM
@HenningMakholm I think it is a bit early to do dead mathematician jokes with BT.
 
@MichaelGreinecker I couldn't make it to a punchline either.
s/either/anyway/
 
Every now and then I get a little retard tadadada...
 
@Jonas Did you finish the 10hours of derp? That would explain it.
 
@MichaelGreinecker Yep.
(Twice).
 
what is 10 hrs of derp?
 
10:01 PM
Something nice.
 
:--)))) what is it?
 
@KannappanSampath Pure horror. I couldn't stand it for more than 15 seconds.
 
@MichaelGreinecker I managed about a minute
(is there a badge for that?)
 
@John No badge. And no cure...
@KannappanSampath Yes.
 
10:06 PM
@MichaelGreinecker I am doomed :(((
 
@MichaelGreinecker I find it really funny, nothing more. Is that supposed to be bad?
 
@KannappanSampath I think one could use that for torture, but tastes differ.
 
:((((
closed that vid.
 
@KannappanSampath You should get the peer pressure badge for that.
 
@JohnSenior I managed 10 hours.
2
 
10:16 PM
Twice.
 
@JonasTeuwen I would have to donate my guru badge to you for that :)
 
@Jonas I managed about 4 hours of the amazing horse though.
 
I finished that one too.
And Trololo 10hrs.
My girlfriend left me after about 3,5 hours.
2
Luckily she came back in the evening.
 
@Jonas So what`s next?
 
I don't know... Perhaps just some Derp?
 
11:09 PM
@JonasTeuwen well that was a short relationship! :D
(i sincerely apologize for that terrible, terrible, joke)
 

« first day (760 days earlier)      last day (4260 days later) »