The Bridge

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

05:00

I don't see the domain being associated with any malware

user15026

@YiJiang'sEvilClone How do I do that?

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone No mention of qcksrv in the source code

user15026

I can't check. okcupid, which is what threw the warning, isn't even loading for me right now, even though everything else is

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

If you're using "View Source", that'll only get you the HTML that's being loaded from SE, which we already know doesn't contain anything (unless the malware operates on the network stack and modifies incoming packets, which would be pretty sophisticated)

Ktash

nothing in gaming.SE source that has that

likely means local or man in the middle injection of the code

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

05:02

Open the Developer Console and look at the DOM instead.

@Ktash It could be your ISP, yeah.

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone Nothing in the DOM, either

Ktash

ISP is unlikely, but your router might be compromised or something else might be compromised along the way

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

False alarm from Chrome, perhaps? I just visited the site itself on Chrome and nothing happened

Ktash

Or, you have a local compromise that detection isn't hitting

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone yeah, that seems like the most likely candidate right now

Ktash

05:03

In chrome, I don't have an issue with loading any sites

post urls if you want me to test

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

What does "Details about http://www.qcksrv.com" tell you?

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone I got rid of the error, and I can't get it to come back

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Found something

stopbadware.org/clearinghouse/…

murgatroid99

Yeah, the bad url is in there: qcksrv.com/support/www

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

It's blacklisted, but Google's own diagnostic report is clean

Uh, does Windows have a wget equivalent?

murgatroid99

05:07

@YiJiang'sEvilClone The URL itself just asks for a login, then gives 403 when I don't give a correct one

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

So it's marked as suspicious, but Google doesn't know why.

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone looks like it

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

It could be because it's being randomly injected into pages where it doesn't belong, except we can't actually see it being randomly injected, and we don't know how it's being injected

user15026

I am getting it for so many sites now

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone I'm really wondering why it affects anything else on the internet, since it seems to be a login only admin page

user15026

05:09

Here, threadless.com, OKC, twitter....

user15026

Basically everything I look at right now

Ktash

@AshleyNunn Sounds like your machine might be compromised and this might be getting injected into any page you load

user15026

@Ktash So me running a scan on my machine is a good idea, then.

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

I don't see it. It does sound like your machine is compromised

user15026

(I have MSE running a full scan)

Ktash

05:10

Definitely

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Either that or your ISP or someone in the middle of the chain is doing this

user15026

Weird, I haven't done anything out of the ordinary....

user15026

@YiJiang'sEvilClone I share internet with my landlords upstairs. Could there be a problem there?

murgatroid99

Here's something interesting

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

A compromised ad network, perhaps? But I don't think all of the sites uses the same ad network

Ktash

05:11

@AshleyNunn ... Maybe but it is unlikely

user15026

@Ktash Okay. I just want to eliminate sources, so if the scan doesn't get it, I know what my next steps potentially are

Ktash

It is possible your router uses Java or something, and a hacker used the new exploits to scan IP addresses and play man in the middle with routers

user15026

makes a face

Ktash

Usually they go for machines rather than routers though

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Could also be the DNS server

I mean, a lot of possibilities once we eliminate the local machine

Ktash

05:13

@YiJiang'sEvilClone Maybe...

user15026

I know that to connect to my wifi, I have to load a webpage and then enter password data. Could there be an issue there?

user15026

My apologies if I am asking stupid questions. I don't know anything about this stuff.

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

This is definitely something that's only started happening recently. A lot of forum posts about it are popping up

@AshleyNunn @murgatroid99 Do you two share an ISP?

user15026

@YiJiang'sEvilClone I use Rogers, I think.

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone I have the CMU ISP. She can't have that

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

05:16

Right, but up one level? They might still be connected in some way.

Ktash

@murgatroid99 Carnegie Mellon??

murgatroid99

@Ktash yes

Ktash

Nice!

Krazer

@murgatroid99 @AshleyNunn Try connection with a mobile device or tablet to check if it's your ISP

Ktash

CMU is too far from Ashley, they wouldn't share a common server for ISP even if they had the same

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

05:17

Yeah, I know

It's a good guess though, right? :/

Ktash

Considering the number of people hitting it, sounds like a bot network just went online

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Seeing it on another other browsers?

user15026

@Ktash neeeeeergh

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

There's someone in the Google Forums thread that says he uninstalled Chrome just to be safe, heh

Ktash

heh, yeah.. ignoring the problem will make it go away for sure lol

Ashley, are you mac or PC?

murgatroid99

05:19

I can't make the error appear on my phone

user15026

@Ktash PC.

Ktash

well, I guess either of you

user15026

Errors don't appear on my phone, and IE seems to be okayt

Ktash

Win 7?

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

IE doesn't use the same blacklist as Chrome I think

user15026

05:19

yeah

Ktash

@YiJiang'sEvilClone It doesn't

murgatroid99

Even visiting the actual "compromised" URL

Ktash

Open up the start menu, and in the search dialog, type cmd and hit enter

user15026

@YiJiang'sEvilClone Its the only other browser I have

user15026

@Ktash then what?

Ktash

05:21

type ping gaming.stackexchange.com

hit enter and paste in here what is displayed

murgatroid99

@Ktash why

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

I don't think ping is what you're looking for?

Ktash

Looking to see if the DNS is getting rerouted or if it is page injection

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Have either of you actually tried loading a 'compromised page'?

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone yes. They all load fine

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

05:22

No trace of script injection or anything like that?

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone nothing noticable

I'm really thinking it's just a compromised ad thing

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Then where is the warning coming from? Look at the Resources tab of the developer tools, it should show you the resources being loaded by the page

Ktash

@YiJiang'sEvilClone If it is a DNS redirect, then it may load from that url and transparently redirect it to the proper page

Injecting in between or logging stuff

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Right, but the resources tab must show something from the malicious domain being loaded, or else the warning would not be tripped

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone I can't find anything

@Ktash If it was a DNS redirect, how would Google know where it's actually coming from

Ktash

05:27

@murgatroid99 DNS info to redirect to the compromised URL, then transparent redirect onto the page

Basically, I'm trying to rule out if the hosts file is compromised or if there is someone hijacking the DNS server

user15026

@ktash I cant get it to copy

Ktash

@AshleyNunn Right click and select mark. Then you can select it and copy

well, when you select it, it does copy

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

qcksrv.com appears to be some sort of ad server I think

user15026

I cant get that to work.

user15026

Will screencap.

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

05:29

The Google Product Forum thread is getting flooded

Ktash

@YiJiang'sEvilClone Sounds like a bot net or timed compromise then

or Google just added that to their filter list lol

user15026

Ktash

take out the competition

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

stopbadware.com says that the site was added today, yesh

murgatroid99

@YiJiang'sEvilClone Yeah, right now my favorite hypothesis is a compromised ad server that is used by a bunch of ad networks

or ad server service or something

Ktash

05:31

@AshleyNunn Looks like the right info, so it is getting injected in the page

user15026

Is that good for me, or bad?

Ktash

Neither, really, just eliminating possibilities

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

We still don't know what is happening or how it's being done, so, bad :P

Ktash

Let the MSE scan run and see what it says

compromised ad server isn't crazy though

It must have been a huge network though if it is hitting Twitter and Arqade

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Twitter... yeah, no. Twitter doesn't use any ordinary ad server

Krazer

05:33

Have you guys tried using Ad-Block on the domain in question and revisiting?

Ktash

@YiJiang'sEvilClone They use like 7 or something lol

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

SE uses adzerk.com

murgatroid99

@Krazer I'm pretty sure Ad-block works after the page loads, so it wouldn't affect Google's warning

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

@murgatroid99 Firefox's blocks the resources before the page itself is loaded. I think Chrome's extension framework isn't flexible enough to allow that, so they're blocked after the page loads

user15026

@Ktash Twitter seems unaffected now

user15026

05:37

Arqade, OKC, some blogs still are though

user15026

I am going to likely crawl into bed now, though, and leave the MSE scan overnight

Ktash

Probably not a terrible idea

user15026

@Ktash makes a sleepy face

Ktash

user15026

@Ktash Yeah, like that, with less beard

Ktash

05:40

►

user15026

@Ktash Ah, that is closer to the cuteness that is me :D

Ktash

@AshleyNunn I know ;)

user15026

@Ktash blushes

Krazer

06:33

Ktash

Haha nice

also funny considering I was just looking at Patrick Stewart's twitter lol

Lazers

07:05

0

Q: How do I get through the south exit from Laying The Foundation?

In the room Laying The Foundation I have been through every exit I could find/reach, but the map still shows that I have not taken the exit to the south. There is an area in the center of the room with those flying ball things, but I have never managed to get inside. So how do I reach the south e...

antichamber

winterswift

Hello, extremely quiet Bridge.

Ktash

Hello unquiet user

winterswift

Yes, I'm here to disturb the peace.

Krazer

Do try harder.

winterswift

Krazer

07:28

@winterswift I preferred last year's

►

winterswift

@Krazer At least last year we didn't have that horrifying GoDaddy commercial.

Krazer

@winterswift Clearly! PHP in a commercial?! Come on!

winterswift

@Krazer sigh

Krazer

But still... the legs on that guy...

they told him he could be anything, so he became a helicopter

winterswift

@Krazer He's probably a l33t hax0r.

It's either that, or he successfully gained root access to the human body.

user15026

07:36

The Bridge is strange when I should be sleeping.

Krazer

@winterswift Nah. Lord Genome has that covered.

►

@AshleyNunn 〜(￣▽￣〜) 〜(￣▽￣)〜 (〜￣▽￣)〜 This is all a dreaaam~

user15026

@krazer you know, that would make sense.

winterswift

►

HACKITY HACK HACK

Gaming Topics From Outside

08:47

0

Q: Sound indicator shows as muted after playing game. How can I fix that?

After trying to launch QuakeLive with QLPrism in new X server I noticed my sounds have been muted with the following icon: Although all sounds keep playing (music/videos), I somehow get bothered this. How can I fix this?

12.10 sound games mute

Lazers

09:11

0

Q: What is the logic behind the expansion of red blocks?

With the red gun, I can expand red blocks. The result is either vertical (wall/stairs) or horizontal (floor/ceiling), but I cannot tell beforehand which of the two structures an expansion of red blocks would result in. What is the logic behind the expansion of red blocks?

antichamber

Lazers

09:41

0

Q: How do you earn Utopium in game?

I've found out you can get Utopium by tapping on trees and by buying it with real money. Are there any other ways?

pixel-people

fredley

10:38

Hi @kalina

kalina

hi

you do realise I now have to start working on that 7 day idle time again, right?

I hope you know how special you are for me to respond at all!

;)

fredley

@kalina Oh. Is that a thing?

@kalina Aw

kalina

I have some disturbing news

fredley

@kalina Oh dear

kalina

EVE Online is actually a good game once you get over the first month of learning enough skills to do anything

oh and... I made a spreadsheet

2

fredley

10:43

@kalina Really? I was amused with BoingBoing's warning on their post about that EVE battle

kalina

@fredley yeah, it's a really in depth and complete game

fredley

Caution: EVE Online is a more exciting game to read about than to play

kalina

lol

fredley

@kalina It looks like the kind of thing I'd enjoy, if I had time

kalina

yeah the time requirement is rather high

and the game is boring as hell until you understand that you can do what you want with it

fredley

10:45

@kalina That having been said, my gf goes travelling for 3 months on Wednesday...

kalina

it's no good for people who have no motivation to do their own thing

fredley

@kalina I play Minecraft

kalina

@fredley point taken

fredley

@kalina How much is it?

kalina

like 9.99/month

might be 15

I know that if you sign up for the free trial and then just subscribe your account you don't have to buy the game

fredley

10:48

@kalina Eh, quite a lot. I want to replay ME first

kalina

or at least that's how it seems, owing to me not buying the game

I have started building ships in EVE, but currently my skill level means I only just break even

fredley

@kalina Sounds fun

kalina

more fun than it is, it's just clicking a few buttons and waiting for a period of time

fredley

@kalina Like FarmVille?

kalina

flying around with a cargo hold full of ships is more fun though, since every single gate I pass through I get scanned

@fredley I've never even looked at FarmVille

right now I am farming faction reputation, so that I can build my own structure in space to do research on

which is exactly like farming in any other game, and becomes tedious really quickly

compounded by the fact that I'm doing it for a faction that I didn't start as, so I'm missing quite a bit of rep from the starter missions

fredley

10:54

@kalina Neither have I, but I know the premise.

@kalina Sounds like a massive time-sink

kalina

@fredley depends how badly you want it

I could take months over it and it would just happen as part of playing

fredley

@kalina Yeah, I know. I've done the grind thing before

kalina

but since I need said research slots to improve my resource usage on ship building...

fredley

Although I'm trying to remember what in

Oh yeah, this site

kalina

and there are NPC research slots, but they're always all in use with a ~20 day waiting queue

@fredley yeah I'm bored of that now

fredley

10:56

@kalina I've reached 20k, there are no more rep goals.

kalina

I can't even be bothered with reaching 20k :p

in fact, the only reason the site is open right now is because of habit

fredley

@kalina Haha, it's not worth it. The extra privs are pretty lame compared to the jump at 10k

@kalina Wooo habit

It's like addiction, but ... different in some way?

kalina

244 days of habit is just some psychological thing, I just keep finding myself randomly hitting F5 to see if any new questions have come up

fredley

Ahahaha

0

Q: Is it ethical to cast 15 downvotes in only 24 hours?

While we are in Beta, is it ethical to cast 15 downvotes in only 24 hours, especially after having casted only 15 downvotes in 10 days? I'm asking because there is an user here that has shown that behaviour just in the last 24 hours.

discussion

@fbueckert

kalina

and then go eugh, why did I do that

fredley

10:58

@kalina The site doesn't notify you by ~~magic~~ javascript?

@kalina That was a highly starrable post

kalina

the javascript updates don't take into account stuff that gets deleted or w/e

fredley

@kalina Wow, that is quite a serious habit you've got going there

kalina

@fredley happens

fredley

@kalina I think I get bored much too quickly. I get hooked on things quickly, fall out of them quickly and move on.

(Apart from Minecraft for some reason)

kalina

well this is where I see danger in EVE

there is part of my mentality that can justify keep paying for EVE without playing it, because of the skill training system

and then another part going NO DON'T DO THAT

fredley

11:02

@kalina I think the face I don't pay for MC is the reason i can keep sinking hours and hours into it.

If I was, my frugal side would bitch-slap me into stopping paying for such a waste of time

My frugal side is quite forceful...

kalina

@fredley well, the money sinking is no issue for me, all I've done is replace multiple WoW accounts with two EVE accounts

fredley

@kalina 2?

kalina

I was given one by a friend

that's ~3-4 years old

and thus has 3-4 years of skill training on it

fredley

@kalina Handy

kalina

yeah, otherwise I would have quit by now I reckon

little mining ship -> massive battleship with lots of guns made a difference

fredley

11:04

@kalina Yeah, starting from scratch in a mature ecosystem like that seems tough

kalina

@fredley it is very tough

fredley

Looking forward to Elite in like, 2 years though

kalina

especially since there isn't really a way to catch up

@fredley yep, me too

fredley

@kalina Quite, everything's time-limited, and there are always people playing more hours than you

kalina

they don't have spam you with emails though

@fredley playing more hours isn't an issue in eve

fredley

11:05

@kalina Ah ok, does it do stuff passively?

kalina

training happens whileever the account is subscribed

you don't have to be logged in

fredley

@kalina Ok.

Sounds like sniff glitch

kalina

but it happens at a fixed speed based on your attributes

so people who've been playing for years (a) have more actual time passed training and (b) have higher attributes due to usage of high end implants

fredley

@kalina So you're screwed either way

Unless you pay $10k for a mature account?

kalina

well yes and no

A lot of the skills are just rubbish unless you do that specific thing

like corporate management, lets you have more people in your corporation

fredley

11:07

@kalina Ok

kalina

but if you're not the CEO of a corporation, it's wasted points

or like refining, which increases the yield from refining ores

fredley

Have you read ReamDe?

kalina

no

fredley

@kalina It's a good book, partly set in a WoW-like online game

kalina

I need to avoid anything WoW-like

otherwise I'll end up playing WoW again

fredley

11:09

@kalina It's not that much like WoW

Reamde

Reamde is a technothriller novel by Neal Stephenson, published in 2011. The story, set in the present day, centers on the plight of a hostage and the ensuing efforts of family and new acquaintances, many of them associated with a fictional MMORPG, to rescue her as her various captors drag her about the globe. Topics covered range from online activities including gold farming and social networking to the criminal methods of the Russian mafia and Islamic terrorists. Plot summary Reamde begins by introducing two members of the Forthrast family who reconnect at an annual family reunion: R...

kalina

why is American TV so unpredictable

so many random weeks where they don't show the next episode

fredley

@kalina Probably so that they can get you hooked on something else before the season ends

kalina

eugh, I appear to have lost my ability to undo stars

fredley

@kalina How awkward

kalina

meh, not really

badp

11:13

@fredley at 200k you get a picture of a unicorn signed by Joel!!!!111one

kalina

there was probably a reason, and I care so little about stackexchange at this point that the reason becomes irrelevant

I got a nice email from somebody from SE with 'vice president' of something or other though

fredley

@badp Really?!

At my current rate, that will take 18 years

badp

Well. Jon Skeet got one for his 200k...

kalina

morning badp

badp

'noon

fredley

11:15

@kalina Wow

Ender

HI THERE ERRRY BODY!

fredley

@Ender WOOOOOO

kalina

@fredley this account I was given, for a comparison, has more points in "missile launcher operation" than I have in total on my new account

fredley

@kalina Handy for launching missiles I guess

Lazers

0

Q: ingress not getting any extra points from portal hacking

It seems like I am Stuck with 1130XP points and I don't get any more from hacking portals I have hacked in previous days. Is there a limit on the experience points one can receive from certain geographical areas or is it that hacking is limited in the XP points that can give?

ingress

kalina

11:17

@fredley and lots of them, in various shapes and sizes

fredley

@kalina Is blowing other people up good?

kalina

@fredley I don't know, I haven't tried going one on one with anybody yet

fredley

@kalina I guess the risk is quite high

kalina

the first time I attacked anybody the fight was over quite quickly

fredley

@kalina Who won?

kalina

11:19

but my knowledge of the game is still rather limited, and I was told afterwards that the fight I picked was unwinnable

well, the kill board said I did

but it didn't feel like a victory

Mad Scientist

@fredley You only risk your ship (and maybe the implants in your clone). You can PvP for cheap

badp

@kalina Have you tried the newest and trendliest Diablo 2 clone yet?

kalina

@MadScientist I attacked a maller in a manticore I could only just use, while less than 10km away

badp

Yeah.

kalina

@badp path of exile?

bored of that already

badp

11:20

'kay. I was just wondering; that is all.

Mad Scientist

@kalina And you won?

kalina

@MadScientist no, but the maller got blown up shortly after

and I didn't get podded

so I was technically still alive and took part in the fight

Mad Scientist

A Stealth Bomber is not a solo ship (though it is possible, but really, really hard).

kalina

I know this now

Mad Scientist

It's pretty hard in the beginning if you have no idea of what the various ships are capable of. And there's still enough rare ships where the name doesn't tell me anything, there are just so many different ships in EVE

kalina

11:25

right now I'm flying around in an arbitrator

since I make enough isk per day to replace them at will when they get blown up

Mad Scientist

@kalina That is a pretty mean ship now against anything with turrets

kalina

and now my corporate standing with Amarr Empire is 4.1

only 0.9 to go -.-

Mad Scientist

The most annoying standing requirement is the one for jump clones, which is at 8 or so

kalina

I just want to set up a pos

so I can do material research and time efficency on these blueprints

fredley

@kalina Point of Sale?

kalina

11:35

@fredley player owned structure

Mad Scientist

I never did any POS stuff, or industry in general

But it's not exactly cheap to keep it fueled, from what I know. And you might have to defend it if someone wardecs you

fredley

@kalina Oh

kalina

@MadScientist I am deeply disappointed that I can't fit a bunch of turrets on it in high sec space

but then I was going to set it up in a 0.4 and decided against that

Mad Scientist

@kalina You can't? And better than turrets is ECM, far more annoying

kalina

0.4 or lower for turrets and ECM

0.3 or lower for moon mining

Mad Scientist

11:40

Guns on a POS are also just an annoyance, they don't stop anyone from killing your POS.

kalina

@MadScientist eve.1019.net/pos/…

Mad Scientist

I've never built or used a POS, but I have attacked a few

kalina

well that setup has plenty of resists and ECM

and an advanced mobile lab

BoltClock

Hi guys I came here from gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/103768/…

fredley

@BoltClock Excellent

badp

11:48

@BoltClock Welcome to the bridge. It's space, here.

Ender

-blinks-

fredley

Ender

12:03

@fredley You dont say?

badp

and this is why you don't ask people why they should get the job in interviews

fredley

@badp Interviewing this guy would be hilarious

badp

@fredley "So, in short, Mr. ██████████, you're the goddamn Batman. Is that correct?"

fredley

@badp Too smiley for Batman, possibly Joker?

Ender

@badp @fredley Na,The Riddler. Check the clever grammer usage.

fredley

12:16

@Ender Maybe this resume is actually a riddle?

badp

So it costs $110 to get a passport in Italy for 10 years

I wonder if it's worth it.

fredley

@badp Sounds similar to UK price.

Ender

@Fredley Clearly it's a Bomb Threat written by a mind more clever than my own.

badp

It definitely sounds expensive.

fredley

@badp Leaving Italy is probably worth it.

badp

12:18

@fredley European Union means I only need my ID while travelling

fredley

@Ender Could you tell the difference between a raving genius and a raving lunatic?

@badp Not UK!

badp

even as UK pulled out of Shengen, an Italian ID is sufficient AFAIK

fredley

@badp Nope, you need a passport to get in here.

badp

(PS: boo to UK for pulling out of Shengen)

Ender

@Fredley Genius and Crazy are technically the exact same thing, the only difference is the publics opinion of you.

fredley

12:18

@Ender True that.

@badp Eh, it wouldn't have worked.

badp

@fredley What "wouldn't have worked"?

fredley

@badp We are an island, it's much more complicated.

badp

@fredley Oh please.

You're not fucking Siciliy

fredley

@badp The difference is nobody wants to go to Sicily for economic reasons...

badp

lol, have you ever heard of this thing called "Africa"?

turns out there's quite a lot of migratory pressure from that general direction

The closest non-EU immigrants to UK by boat would come all the way from Russia.

fredley

12:22

@badp Britain is a lot closer to Africa than Italy is.

Also it would upset the commonwealth if Frenchmen could get in more easily than Australians.

badp

@fredley What the hell are you smoking?

fredley

@badp goo.gl/maps/IMR2r

badp

fredley

@badp You missed a bit (of Britain)

badp

@fredley Please insert a blank, angry stare here.

fredley

12:25

@badp Haha. That's the thing though. Unlike the rest of Europe, we still have quite a lot of overseas territories and the awkward remains of a global empire.

badp

Sell 'em! Like, for money. Two birds, one stone.

Customs are literally the worst thing ever

bbl lunch

BoltClock

12:37

@YiJiang'sEvilClone So you're /u/mediumdeviation reddit.com/r/mylittlepony/comments/17tay2/the_pinkie_network

badp

Okay, customs aren't literally the worst thing ever

They're still pretty stupid.

especially if the justification is "Gibraltar"

also, information about whether or not you need a passport is contrasting; I think the most authoritative I can find is this

(supported by what's here)

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