The Bridge

Jin

04:00

@Fluttershy Mine is Episode IV: A New Hope.

fbueckert

@EBongo I don't coddle new users. I'm friendly, and I try to teach them the ropes, but they don't get slack because they're new. They either learn, or they leave. I don't care which.

EBongo

@fbueckert You take site clean up seriously, and I respect that - but I disagree about giving the new folks slack. A community that is welcoming to new users will retain more users, and attract the type of users who will welcome others. I'd like to see us move more in that direction, so I'm advocating that cause - but you don't have to agree with me. :)

fbueckert

And those that get mad because their two year old crappy question gets closed and they go all passive aggressive about it, those get the same treatment as everybody else, even though I don't like them.

EBongo

You may call me a dreamer... but I'm not the only one. Maybe some day you'll join us... and the world will live as one. :)

fbueckert

@EBongo It's the content quality vs. the new user divide. :) I'm all for the content. If a couple new users get turned into speed bumps along the way, eh. Them's the breaks.

Raven Dreamer

04:06

Jin

EBongo

►

I don't know how to one box that, but it's the Kronk squirrel scene.

user15026

That movie was so awesome

Fluttershy

@EBongo Just drop the @Fluttershy and it should work.

user15026

Neeeergh. Want to keep learning Python on this thing but I don't know what it wants from meeeeeeeeee

user15026

04:09

throws rocks

Raven Dreamer

Gnight, y'all

Ben Brocka

@AshleyNunn exactly, it wants rocks

user15026

@RavenDreamer Good night :)

Ben Brocka

Goodnight

fbueckert

@AshleyNunn Yes. Throwing rocks at code is a useful solution to your problems. :P

user15026

04:10

@fbueckert hey you never know.....

EBongo

@Fluttershy I actually laughed again watching that, even when I knew what it was... :)

Ben Brocka

@EBongo my opinion is pretty well summed up by Shog here:

14

A: What are the most effective ways to guide new users?

Obviously not all new users are alike, but which of these positions are best supported by what we've seen happen in the past? What is the best way to guide new users whose posts need some work? As the other answers - and your own experiences - have probably shown you, there is no script for ...

fbueckert

@BenBrocka That's a good post.

Fluttershy

user15026

@BenBrocka Oh man, I have been looking for something like this, for an unrelated reason.

user15026

04:21

Every time I complete one of these little programming exercises I feel like a tiny little programming goddess. IT IS AWESOME

Tim Stone

Yay awesomeness!

EBongo

@BenBrocka You might not be surprised that I agree more with Rachel's answer - not that Shog doesn't make some good points. No one philosophy is going to be perfect. I don't honestly understand the prevalent fear that the site is going to be infected and eaten from within by bad new user content though. That seems just a commonly held conspiracy theory to me.

user15026

@TimStone It might just be baby steps, but learning this stuff is pretty nifty

Ben Brocka

@EBongo Because you can see sites littered with terrible un/under moderated new user content anywhere on the web

user15026

@BenBrocka This!

fbueckert

04:27

@EBongo Our standards are what prevent us from being GameFAQs.

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

@EBongo I'm not sure about you, but on average I flag anywhere between 3-12 posts to be deleted by moderators, the overwhelming majority of which are posted by 1 rep users. I can't comment on the "eaten within" part, but "infested" definitely sounds about right.

EBongo

@BenBrocka @fbueckert Peace. I just mean there is too much inertia in our policies and governance to be unraveled so easily.

user15026

Coming from this as a mod of a tiny struggling site, you want to make sure that you get both people and good quality stuff. I can't possibly explain every nuance of the site to everyone, because that is a massive undertaking. I can only imagine the scope difference here. Sometimes, you can't fix everyone or everything. Which is why we have the tools we do.

fbueckert

@EBongo I don't think there's a problem here that need resolving.

This is how the site works. If you want to contribute, we don't even make you register to do so.

OrigamiRobot

@EBongo Part of being treated like an equal means learning to deal with sub-par contributions being removed.

fbueckert

04:30

But you're subject to the same rules and policies as everybody else. If a moderated community isn't something you like, then you'll have to find somewhere else.

OrigamiRobot

Don't berate a new user. Not because they are new, but because it is rude to do so to anyone.

user15026

@OrigamiRobot This. If the new user and I are equal, then we have to be subject to the same laws.

OrigamiRobot

Offer to help people, new or not.

This site is about helping people after all.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot And part of it is going to be helping them learn how the site works.

OrigamiRobot

Not coddling them is only going to help them.

fbueckert

04:33

If they can take the criticism, that is.

EBongo

I think folks tend to take my request for more positivity as a request to change the rules. I think we have a few too many rules about closing things, but I consider most of those fights lost. I'm not talking about rules, I'm talking about culture.. the interpretations that bind the policies together. The fact that folks tend to interpret the request as either coddling or a request to change the rules I think is indicative of the problem.

fbueckert

Which is something lacking in today's school system, it seems.

Everybody must pass! No failing grades!

user15026

@EBongo What then, would you consider a prime new user experience?

OrigamiRobot

@EBongo Not to be rude, but if people continually misinterpret you, shouldn't you change what you are offering for interpretation?

EBongo

There are two basic best case scenarios for a new user 1) They ask a question we love 2) The give an answer we love. Then they are showered with the affection of rep. I'd say even if they get some fairly harsh treatment after this, they may just stick it out. The problem of course is if we don't love what they provide.

fbueckert

04:37

@EBongo Part of the new user experience is the vast amount of help they get before they even ask or answer their first question.

OrigamiRobot

@EBongo Sounds like the ball is in their court from the get go.

EBongo

@OrigamiRobot I'm still here. I'm not really trying to convince anyone though, just discussing.

OrigamiRobot

@EBongo It's not about convincing, it's about communicating.

fbueckert

New users get lots of popups beforehand. Part of their job is actually reading those, instead of just ignoring and clicking through.

user15026

@fbueckert This!

EBongo

04:39

Too ... many... comments... :)

fbueckert

If someone really wants to understand and learn how the site works, we provide all the resources they need to learn.

OrigamiRobot

I'll be the first one to say SE isn't as new user friendly as it could be, but all we can do is refer them to the FAQ and/or chat.

fbueckert

It is not our duty to explain, again, why their question got closed. We often DO, because we ARE trying to be friendly, but what makes you think a new user will read comments on their question if they won't even read all the new user stuff that shows up?

EBongo

@OrigamiRobot I'm just suggesting that we aspire to continually improve that experience, the same way we aspire to enforce policies on 100% of questions. Each case is a limit that never approaches perfect success - but in the case of new user experience I think there is lower hanging fruit.

user15026

@EBongo But we also have to watch that we keep site and network policies and such in mind as well

EBongo

04:43

@AshleyNunn Granted. I think we can do both.

user15026

@EBongo to a point, maybe, but we can't always hold new users to different standards - that allows them the ability to just not learn

fbueckert

@EBongo I honestly don't see how; I'm open to ideas, but we already try to engage new users much more than established ones.

EBongo

@fbueckert It is a duty we volunteer for, to help people. The duty is not about any particular rule of the mechanics of the site.

fbueckert

We have to hold ourselves accountable for the new user experience, and at the same time, we have to hold THEM accountable as well.

It's not our single, solitary duty to ensure all users get a good experience.

Heck, we don't even require proper spelling and grammar. We've cleaned up a ton of word vomit, the user gets upvotes, and they STILL never come back.

user15026

@fbueckert This. SE is not and will not be for everyone that stumbles across it.

user15026

04:47

I mean sometimes, it works out great (take the case of a user on Libraries who posted a link only answer, I commented, and then BAM, instead of complaint, I got a super well written answer.)

EBongo

@fbueckert I accept that there are some people that can not be helped, and likewise a great many that would not become good new users. I'm just saying that I see us losing good potential users, and we should change behavior to stop that.

Ben Brocka

@fbueckert On UX the "BUT THIS IS GIVING ME A BAD UX" line has gotten very old. Multiple trolls/jerks have given me that one

user15026

this will not always be the vase

fbueckert

@EBongo Except you're providing any sort of example, or a solution, or even a suggestion.

OrigamiRobot

@EBongo Are you seeing people being negative or just a lack of people being positive?

user15026

04:48

@OrigamiRobot This is a very important distinction!

fbueckert

This question has users falling all over themselves to be helpful to the new person.

Same thing for this question.

EBongo

I brought up as an example earlier, a user with < 500 rep, who has had several questions closed, including a recently deleted question with 8 downvotes, and yet seems to ask some good questions - and has even awarded a bounty.

It is a behavior I've seen over the course of my almost 1 year here, I'll collect more examples if you find it useful. Some of it is personal experience.

fbueckert

This one has a classic issue of the user not reading; you can't see it, but they asked it again after it got closed the first time.

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert I actually don't think that should be closed.

fbueckert

@EBongo Some of that comes from the comments on the question itself.

OrigamiRobot

04:51

There are far more localized redstone questions

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot I agree.

OrigamiRobot

It does need some rewording.

fbueckert

Back to Keceoy's question, though, it was essentially, "My computer does this. How do I fix it?"

OrigamiRobot

Which brings me to my point, we can't be everywhere all the time.

fbueckert

Which SHOULD gather downvotes. No effort, no research, no nothing.

And someone who's been here for a while should know better.

Not get mad and freak out when he gets downvotes.

Ktash

04:53

Bridge is so busy tonight!

fbueckert

My point is, you can't heap all the responsibility on the regular users; part of being a community is fitting in, not making the community fit you.

OrigamiRobot

-4

Q: How can I control a sequence of outputs via a single input?

Ok, so I'm making a map which needs a level system. By level system I mean: Push the button first time,output A lights up. Push the button second time,output B lights up. Push the button third time,output C lights up. And so on. Essentially, each button press makes the next output in the seq...

Fixed

EBongo

@fbueckert Point taken. Users who aspire to be regulars will ultimately have to grow to love (or tolerate) the norms of the group. Independently, we as a community can still always be evolving toward something better.

fbueckert

@EBongo I think we're doing a pretty good job of that, actually.

user15026

@EBongo Putting aside the idea that we need to be better, for a moment - if we bend the norms for the new users, they are going to be smacked in the face when they do have to abide and be treated with them

Lazers

04:58

0

Q: Is there any way to play a custom map in multiplayer?

Civilization 5's multiplayer does not support any form of modding aside from changing the .lua scripts associated with existing multiplayer map options. They consider pre-generated maps 'modding' in this case. The fact that custom maps are not allowed in multiplayer does not make any sense to me...

civilization-5 multiplayer

fbueckert

There's always room for improvement, but I think we're far from the hostile, unwelcoming group that you paint us to be.

user15026

@fbueckert This, this, this.

user15026

I have about as low a tolerance for hostility that one can have (literally. I am amazingly conflict avoidant), and I am still here.

EBongo

@fbueckert We've come a long way in a lot of ways, certainly. You can interpret my comments as hyberbole, or see the truth in them. I'd say we lean toward unwelcoming in more cases than we have to, but certainly not all. Hostile I'd certainly not use, but abrupt... perhaps.

fbueckert

@EBongo You really need to provide some examples of where we could improve. Keceoy doesn't count; he's been around long enough to know better.

EBongo

05:04

@AshleyNunn The whiplash associated with harsher rules doesn't really concern me, because I don't see a need to relax the rules in any way I consider significant. It's probably not the best analogy, but "a strict parent can still be loving".

@fbueckert I'll look, but I'm not sure you'll be very convinced. Nonetheless, I've been heard which is what I was after. I intend to lead by example as much as advocate in chat :).

It's my bedtime, so until later :) . Have a good evening all.

fbueckert

@EBongo Contrary to my passionate arguing, I'm willing to change my mind. :) But I haven't seen anything that shows a need what you're advocating for.

Sidenote:

OrigamiRobot

@EBongo Waaaaiiittttt

fbueckert

-1

A: How do I transfer old Pokemon to Black/White with ONE Nintendo DS?

From: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9_Transfer: Poké Transfer (Japanese: ポケシフター PokéShifter) is a feature in the Generation V games Pokémon Black and White and Pokémon Black and White 2. It is located in the Poké Transfer Lab on Route 15. The Poké Transfer is a feature ...

That was a straight up copy/paste, before @YiJiang'sEvilClone added in the source.

Shouldn't we be just deleting that, not editing it?

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert I broke 100k unbuffed dps

user15026

05:33

I should stop playing FE and go to bed. But I am having too much fun matchmaking my characters.... I mean... Battling. Yes. That.

Lazers

07:49

0

Q: PvZ double starport - does it work and how?

Just played a very quick PvZ match - I scouted a very early fast expand from the Zerg player and managed to deny any of their scouting with an early stalker. I had been thinking of early trying some early starport tactics for a while so teched up to double starport and tried to get out some earl...

starcraft-2

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

08:24

@fbueckert I don't know, I've got a feeling this might actually be an answer to the question

Although I'm not sure.

djsmiley2k

Morning yall :)

Ladineko

09:01

Howdy!

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

reddit.com/r/programming/comments/18rfl5/…

djsmiley2k

how goes it?

Ladineko

Fine, and there?

djsmiley2k

alrighty.

only just started tho ;)

Ladineko

Same.

Struggleing already xD

djsmiley2k

09:10

19

Q: Who is the stealthiest follower?

Playing a stealth thief, I find that followers (specifically Lydia) are not useful on missions. She just keep getting us detected, so I'm forced to tell her to wait before starting a mission, which is annoying given that almost all dungeons have alternative exists that make me have to go back ...

skyrim

I think this answer is wrong

The followers don't level up with the player. They start at a level which is keyed to the players level when they join, but then they don't gain any experience after that point. So the best way is to pick up the wanted follower once your high enough level to be happy with them.

Ladineko

I dont play Skyrim... so i dunno

djsmiley2k

Ah, it seems it is I who is out of date

that was appently a bug which has been patched

Ladineko

Hehe.

djsmiley2k

"Prior to patch 1.6, a follower's skills, health, and other stats were set when they were first spawned (which is typically when you enter their starting cell, become a Thane, and so on) and would not increase as their level increased. "."

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

09:44

*sigh*

djsmiley2k

@YiJiang'sEvilClone sup?

Ladineko

YES!!!

Finally! Sucess!

I got the damn code to work!

choke hold on PHP

djsmiley2k

\o/

feelds good. I'm not a coder in any sense, so when I get something working, its like..... awwww yeah!

kalina

10:01

I have been trying to word a question for two days, and I've just concluded that I don't want to know the answer enough for the amount of effort I've put into rewording this question

badp

That is backwards

kalina

you are backwards

djsmiley2k

backwards is you.

Ladineko

@kalina Thanks for your pandarian armor question, i managed to buy cheap armor to get into the dungeons and gotten myself even better armor from it :)

kalina

happens

badp

10:03

At any rate - no, @YiJiang'sEvilClone would probably not mod ponies in EvE because they are likely already a thing. He would install the mod for a second, weep softly for a while and then uninstall it all.

That should answer your quesiton.

kalina

no my question was about whether setting a bunch of drones on defensive and having a bunch more drones assisted to you would result in a botnet of pain and suffering for anybody who attacked

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

@badp I... uh... what?

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

11:32

For the record, I, 1. Do not play EVE and 2. Do not have any intention of modding ponies into it or installing pony mods for it in the extremely unlikely chance that I should actually start playing the ~~accounting simulation~~ game

badp

So I was mostly right anyway

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

11:45

... not really, no

fredley

I should not have come to work today :-(

kalina

@fredley I feel this way every day, except instead of "come to work" it's "got out of bed"

fredley

@kalina Except I have man flu, possibly the worst ailment ever

badp

"man flu"?

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Man flu :P

kalina

11:47

oh right, you have a mild cold and you're exaggerating the effects for sympathy

I see

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Generally speaking, yes, that's what man flu is

badp

eh

if it forces you to bed and gives you fever, it's flu as far as I'm concerned

kalina

I would say "I have bird flu", but last time I said that a lot of people got scared

badp

Oh god why would you do this to yourself

Martin Sojka

@badp Why not?

Lazers

11:51

0

Q: Is it worth it to switch to the Vintage Suit (10% discount on all items) every time I buy an item even though I already have the Advanced Suit?

I am currently in Chapter 11 and just got the Advanced Suit. Is it worth it to switch to the Vintage Suit (10% discount on all items in the Store) every time I buy an item in the Store even though I already have the much better Advanced Suit (last suit in the first playthrough)? I would like...

dead-space-2

badp

that black and white quasi chequered thing gives me the nausea

kalina

@badp do you have an issue with the colour pink?

Martin Sojka

Wait, you're looking at your keyboard? Unless it's necessary to clean it from the food, hair and grime again, that is.

badp

@MartinSojka CAN YOU NOT LOOK AT A KEYBOARD LIKE THAT is the question you should be asking, with the sense of urgency those all caps suggest

fredley

@kalina Don't mock man flu

kalina

11:53

@fredley consider manflu mocked.

seriously

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

@badp key:nth-child(3n+1) { background-color: pink; } key:nth-child(3n+2) { background-color: white; }

fredley

@kalina :(

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Now I wish I could style objects in real life with CSS

kalina

@fredley but I understand that you feel worse than you should do right now, so I will leave off the abuse about how your state of mind is amplifying the effects of your cold

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

God I'm bored

badp

11:54

@YiJiang'sEvilClone start folding your bedsheets

fredley

@kalina Thank you.

My main problem is that I cycled here, so to get back to bed I need to get on my bike again

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

@badp You're not my mother

badp

+real

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Wait, how do you know I don't fold my bedsheets?

Stalker...

kalina

@fredley awwww

fredley

11:55

@kalina 3 miles :(

In the cold

I just want to curl up and go to sleep

badp

@fredley at least it isn't r----

kalina

@YiJiang'sEvilClone it's statistically sound to assume that all guys under the age of 20 don't fold their own bed sheets

obviously it's not the case all of the time, but it's highly likely

fredley

@badp Don't you dare say it

kalina

@fredley its due to snow soon too

fredley

@kalina Is folding bed sheets the same as making your bed?

@kalina SHUT UP

kalina

11:56

@fredley yes

fredley

>:(

kalina

@fredley snow rain ice and 50mph cross winds

fredley

@kalina I do that! But only since I've been about 20

badp

@kalina Apparently folding your bed sheets in some kind of C way is a big effin' deal in the eastern military

fredley

@badp Hospital Corners

Hospital corners are the shit. I can do those.

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

11:57

Oh dear, what's going to happen to me when I get to 20? Will I start folding bedsheets, doing dishes, grow wings and start being responsible? *gasp*

badp

I think I linked to an imgur gallery that mocked this stuff but.

kalina

@YiJiang'sEvilClone no the growing wings part doesn't happen to most people

badp

@YiJiang'sEvilClone No, that is absolutely positively 100% not what's going to happen to you when you get to 20.

fredley

How to do hospital corners was just one practical thing I learned studying art.

badp

When you get to 20 you'll feel existential dread that you've got to 20 and it's supposed to feel different but doesn't. Ask @kalina for details

although I don't quite think she's yet gotten over it :P

kalina

11:59

I've felt existential dread since I was 10

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

@badp Oh no, that happened to me when I was 14. And 18.

badp

@YiJiang'sEvilClone My next scheduled stop is 24, which for some reason feels much larger than 23.

fredley

@kalina Didn't get til 16-17, had ever since.

StrixVaria

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