The Bridge

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

00:00

@badp ...

badp

@YiJiang'sEvilClone Now that's one way to encourage reading! I approve.

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

The crappy coloration is from the cellophane tape I used as a poor man's alternative to real lamination

This is the original

Lazers

0

Q: Sign-ups for Marathon gaming

Alright, let's start sign-ups for our charity games. Please comment on the game you'd want to play for our marathon. Also, please include your timezone (e.g. GMT-8 for me, for Pacific Time zone, US). Date is still TBD, but we will coordinate with everyone when we start deciding that and try to pi...

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

And if you want to make your own dm29.deviantart.com/art/Squashed-Twilight-Bookmark-348896588

Ktash

Sign up to participate in our marathon!

5

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

00:05

I need a better card base for the bookmark. It's still a little too flimsy.

Need to find some thin stiff cardboard

badp

@YiJiang'sEvilClone It's better with borders.

@YiJiang'sEvilClone would it help if you embiggened her hair?

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

No, I chose a poor base for the bookmark. Should've got out and found a real piece of card instead of this piece of stiff art paper

badp

maybe superglue a ruler (fragment) on the back

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

I don't think that's going to help

badp

while you run the risk of the bookmark bending around the ruler, it'd certainly help with the rigidity

plus... it'll have an inbuilt ruler (fragment)!

to measure (fragments of) distances!

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

00:12

I really should be using a penknife instead of scissors for this

Her hair is a nightmare to cut around

badp

how about using a laminator?

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

I don't have one?

badp

Borrow one?

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

And it might get expensive. I don't know, I'll look around

badp

I'd rather suggest borrowing

Lazers

00:38

0

Q: How much gold do champion kills give on Proving Grounds?

There is a reduction in gold per champion kill on Proving Grounds. I play a lot of it, but never really had the time to watch for the gold gain because, unsurprisingly, I'm usually in combat when I get kills. So how much gold does a kill get you, including when the target has a kill/death streak?

league-of-legends

Ben Brocka

00:53

@OrigamiRobot did you know you can use Zero's action skill while zoomed in and skip the animation? I found myself using that a lot more once I found that out

cc any Assassins in BL2. I never knew that

badp

You doom us all to inhuman toil for the One whose Name cannot be expressed in One Hundred Forty Characters. (via)

Ben Brocka

Is that the one that crashes the OSX twitter client?

badp

@BenBrocka If you have an OSX twitter client, there's only one way to know! (yes)

Ben Brocka

Alternately titled why every developer hates unicode

There's either lots of trolling or lots of legitimately terrible use cases on discourse's meta: meta.discourse.org/t/please-no-icon-fonts/1333/18

badp

01:10

@BenBrocka it's terrible, really

Ben Brocka

►

badp

Ben Brocka

Oh hey I do like their "thread complete" meter at the bottom right there

Good solution to the lack of feedback from the loading bar

Tim Stone

@badp I just saw that, you're a terrible person :P

badp

@TimStone Editing on chat is one of the top mod abuses I enjoy as a mod :P

Wipqozn

01:18

badp

I am badp and I approve of my recently mod abused post

8

Ktash

@badp mind putting a timezone in on your sign up for the marathon?

FAE

@Ktash He's GMT+1

OrigamiRobot

01:33

@BenBrocka The clone still gets in the way.

Fluttershy

►

spugsley

HI. MY. PEOPLE.

user15026

@yijiang you are celestia now!

Fluttershy

@spugsley Hullo.

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Uh huh

Ben Brocka

01:42

@OrigamiRobot I don't notice it with B0re. Or rather I just fired it off immediately before taking a shot for bonus damage

OrigamiRobot

@BenBrocka It doesn't block the actual shot, it's visually distracting.

Ben Brocka

have no idea how much bonus damage it does. I didn't even know it did until I saw someone mention it on here...or is that only for melee?

OrigamiRobot

Up to 200% increased Gun Damage (minimum bonus: +40%)
Up to 250% increased Gun Critical Damage
Up to 650% increased Melee Damage (minimum bonus: +230%).

Ben Brocka

Does waiting longer or shorter improve damage with that?

OrigamiRobot

Also, apparently it does block shots.

@BenBrocka Waiting increases it.

Ben Brocka

01:46

Really? I didn't notice that. Though Bore might pierce anyway or something

OrigamiRobot

Yea, I never use it anyway.

Only accidentally when trying to throw a grenade.

Ben Brocka

I use it all the time when reviving people. Though it doesn't help all too much

I'd use it more if I didn't have to break a run to drop it

Or if I could move faster, like Phasewalk

OrigamiRobot

I'd use it more if it didn't make that stupid clone.

Ben Brocka

The clone is pretty dumb

OrigamiRobot

It ruins the ability when sniping.

Ktash

01:49

@spugsley Hi. I like today's picture :)

OrigamiRobot

I'd have to turn and use it in some other direction, then reaquire targets.

Ben Brocka

It seemed to work pretty well when I just cast it and immediately fired

Ktash

I would comment on the pictures on flickr instead of pinging you here, but I don't have a flickr account and this seems easier haha

spugsley

@Ktash yay :)

Ben Brocka

Good ol' fashioned evil

OrigamiRobot

01:58

@Ktash any idea when this marathon is happening? Or even how long it is going to last?

Ktash

@OrigamiRobot A weekend. As for when, not yet. Probably not for a while still (a lot more planning left to do)

once we get some people signed up, I'll have everyone email me, and we can figure out something that works for as many people as possible

Ben Brocka

On Twitch I take it? All on one channel or what?

Ktash

On Twitch, yeah. Hopefully in a single channel/stream, yes

OrigamiRobot

I'd be fine with streaming, but I have no idea how to do any of that.

Ktash

Feb 13 at 2:59, by Ktash

something like that

and I'll be figuring out streaming and how it will all work before we kick things off

probably sooner rather than later

and we'll hopefully have a practice run

OrigamiRobot

02:02

Are we going to run one game at a time?

Ktash

not a whole weekend, but just doing some streaming and hand-offs and such

@OrigamiRobot At certain times, maybe 2. Once we get goals, I'll have people help me get timeframes for things and try and map out a basic schedule (optimistic and worst case)

Ben Brocka

Was thinking if we do BL2 we might be able to fit a full playthrough in but it might require tagging people in/out if it's an actual 24/something hr stream. And that can get weird if the host isn't up to current main quest progress

OrigamiRobot

For Terraria, the walkthrough gives a good guide for structuring goals wiki.terrariaonline.com/Guide:Walkthrough

Ben Brocka

@Ktash so just everyone in all games talking over Mumble then?

OrigamiRobot

I think it would be fun to have two Terraria games racing each other.

Ben Brocka

02:05

That'd be cool

Races could work with Portal 2 too, especially for co op

Ktash

@OrigamiRobot Suggest it as some goals on the meta :)

@BenBrocka That was my thoughts. Why I suggested it

tried to come up with some fun goals for the teams too for donation levels

@BenBrocka Probably yeah

something like that

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

@AshleyNunn So yeah, if you scroll up a bit you can see I actually made the squashed Twilight bookmark

Ktash

@BenBrocka something like that will probably require some planning if it is too long for 1 person

it may come down to, if we can, we have a set of people do it in one location... if possible

Ben Brocka

@Ktash was thinking co op for BL2 also

I have no idea how long a "speed run" playthrough takes though

consensus is like 20 hours for normal playthroughs, but if you know what you're doing and skip some dialog it should be a fair bit shorter. Not sure how much though

Ktash

@BenBrocka maybe still a while

OrigamiRobot

02:09

On the other hand, I'm conflicted about each goal being to progress to the next section of the game.

Ben Brocka

4 hours seems doable

does that run require glitches/tricky shit or do you know?

Ktash

I have no idea

never played the game

OrigamiRobot

"We can't fight the Eye of Cthulhu until you guys donate another $50."

Ben Brocka

Oh he's "speed running" it with a level 50 doing the real work...

Ktash

@OrigamiRobot I'd like to avoid main story quests and such. Have those be assumed and have the goals be extra things

Ben Brocka

02:11

Maybe a DLC run of BL2 would be better

those are beatable inside a few hours

Me jin and jared (I think) beat DLC1 on launch day,,,

FAE

@Ktash It's not like... story-based really, so that metric is hard to apply to Terraria.

Fluttershy

@Ktash There's no like... Avoiding main story stuff in Terraria. Mostly because th... what @FAE said. <_<

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

Uh, Terraria has a story?

OrigamiRobot

@FAE Still there is some sequence of progression to the game.

FAE

Terraria is more similar to Minecraft than like, Borderlands 2 or Portal 2.

Ktash

02:12

Of the games we're marathoning, I've only played SC2 and Portal 2, so I'll be looking to you all to help get goals and such figured out

Ben Brocka

Goals could be nice to have/optional stuff

I don't think most bosses are really needed to progress except the dungeon boss

and any introduced in v1.1 I guess, not aware of those at all

OrigamiRobot

Maybe for Terraria, each goal should allow us to upgrade our armor or something like that.

FAE

@OrigamiRobot Yeah, but you can't like, "avoid story stuff" like Ktash said really.

Fluttershy

@BenBrocka Wall of Flesh is pretty important.

As important as wearing the Holy Goggles when fighting Richter in SotN.

FAE

Chat's being dodgy for me.

Ktash

02:14

@OrigamiRobot I was sort of thinking goals could be used to make things harder for us, or make us progress further, instead of making things easier

OrigamiRobot

@FAE What I was saying was having progression milestones as goals doesn't seem like the best approach to me.

Ktash

so maybe the opposite approach is better

FAE

@OrigamiRobot Yeah, I can see that.

Fluttershy

@BenBrocka For Borderlands 2 we could have like... Story missions broken down into goal tiers with side missions scattered in between. So do a story mission, do a bunch of side missions, do a story mission, etc. Maybe?

OrigamiRobot

The moment you are ready to progress, but the donation for that goal hasn't been met, you're dead in the water.

Ktash

02:16

@OrigamiRobot Yeah, that's the dangerous part. That's why, with the variety of games, I feel it will be better to assume we are doing some things by default

We have a default set of tasks, and then donation tiers add to our list of things we need to do

OrigamiRobot

Goals should be restrictions on how we play the games.

Lazers

0

Q: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Crashing

I own Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic on Steam. Every time that I launch the game it crashes and I can't play it. I am running 64 bit windows 7. Any ideas?

swtor

0

Q: How much damage does Hecarim gain from ghost?

Hecarim gains AD based on his movement speed. Is it worth the investment of ghost over flash when jungling Hecarim based purely on the AD gained (ignoring the benefits of flashing over walls etc). So, how much damage is gained at each common movement tier (Level 1 boots, Level 2 boots, Boots of M...

league-of-legends

Ktash

@OrigamiRobot Also a good way to think of goals :)

OrigamiRobot

Like each goal for Diablo could be to play with one less piece of equipment.

Now, I don't know how realistic it is, but that's just an example.

FAE

If anything can get people to donate money, it's watching other people suffer.

3

OrigamiRobot

02:20

Exactly.

Ktash

@OrigamiRobot Heh, except Diablo didn't make the cut ;)

Ben Brocka

@Fluttershy Just concerned that would get too long. Including sidequests would almost certainly push time over 20 hours, at least in the main game. With the DLCs we could probably do all 3, possibly 100% (possibly not counting raid bosses unless it's a level 50 run)

OrigamiRobot

@Ktash Still a valid example.

Ben Brocka

@FAE Action 52 stream, go

Ktash

Borderlands 2 is going to be a tough one.... it is a long game

FAE

02:21

@BenBrocka I don't know what this meeeeans.

Ben Brocka

@FAE An NES multicart of really, really, amazingly bad games

Games that are worth playing just because you would not otherwise realize they could be that bad

OrigamiRobot

How are we going to track donations?

FAE

@BenBrocka Haha nice.

Ben Brocka

Something like IndieGogo?

Fluttershy

@OrigamiRobot Baby steps, man. Baby steps.

Ktash

02:22

@OrigamiRobot One of the many things for planning. I'm going to have to look into paypal's API and see what others do

Ben Brocka

Oh right paypal might work

Ktash

That'll come in with site design, which hasn't quite hit planning yet lol

@BenBrocka Paypal is what Child's Play uses

Ben Brocka

I've seen lots of donation counter widgets around, I'm sure there's something

OrigamiRobot

@Fluttershy It is pretty important.

Ktash

I know it's possible already, since Mario Marathon does it

Fluttershy

02:23

@OrigamiRobot Right. But this is still just the first stage of things.

Ktash

just need to take the time to figure out how

Ben Brocka

@Ktash Probably easy enough to get current amount paid from the API, show a bar showing the donations + goals?

OrigamiRobot

@Fluttershy It's crucial to the entire system.

Ktash

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking

alright, I need to go pick up my food... bbl

Ben Brocka

Should I just sign up for one game or indicate all which I might be interested in?

Ktash

02:28

@BenBrocka Either or. If you put your name in for multiple, we can be a bit more flexible with how we plan out with people to fill in the gaps

and if we have too much, we can figure out how we can manage multiple streams or something. But that's a problem I'd love to have haha

Gaming Topics From Outside

0

Q: Prevent a fullscreen game from disabling the volume control keys

I just installed Puddle which automatically goes to full-screen when you start it. As soon as it starts, the keyboard shortcuts for increasing/decreasing the volume (Fn+F5 and Fn+F6) stop working. (I seem to remember the same thing happening for other games.) Is there a way to make those keys con...

shortcut-keys games volume-control fullscreen

OrigamiRobot

If we can have two donations tracks, one could be for restrictions and the other could be for rewards.

Ben Brocka

@Ktash I volunteer my Twitch channel, though I'll have to learn how to stream more before I do it

@OrigamiRobot Pay to punish/reward players? Interesting idea

Added some thoughts on BL2 goals, but they could use some fleshing out

0

A: What should our marathon goals be?

Borderlands 2 THVM all bosses run (as in just bosses, playing in an already completed game) DLC 1-3 story quest DLC 1-3 side quest run Main quest speedrun Complications: Borderlands 2 is a long game, ~20 hours for main quest completion. That time can probably be cut down significantly, but I...

Fluttershy

03:05

@BenBrocka Isn't it TVHM?

Retrosaur

@BenBrocka Make sure that nobody abuses the Evil Masher glitch. Otherwise it really takes the fun outta TVHM

Ben Brocka

@Fluttershy Spoken like a noob who hasn't unlocked True Hunter Vault Mode, where you play as The Vault, trying to kill vault hunters

4

But yeah it was a typo

Retrosaur

@BenBrocka woulud this include Terra and Verm?

Because Verm is only a luck spawn

and Terra is ridiculously hard in TVHM, unless your using a glitch

or using Zero+OneShotOneKill+B0re+Infinity+Beeshield

Ben Brocka

Vermi wouldn't be too hard if he's still as common when they did that Norfleet event...not sure how hard he is to spawn otherwise

Retrosaur

I've tried it yesterday, it takes forever.

Literally, it takes FOREVER to get one Verm to spawn

It's ridiculously sad, but it took forever. My party had a shit ton of Ultimate Badass Varkids, but no Verms at all

Ben Brocka

03:14

that's a shame. When they made Vermi common it was actually pretty fun.

Retrosaur

And I've been pratically dying to see some sort of Legendary Soldier. I'll never get one T>T

Also, ensure if they do BL2 marathon events

nobody can abuse evilmashers

because that thing completely wrecks the game

warrior down in 2.5 seconds, as long as you have an infinity

Ben Brocka

If we're starting a playthrough we probably wouldn't ever get one anyway, sidequests take too long. But yeah, no exploits seems reasonable

Tim Stone

Just...what?

Retrosaur

@TimStone PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

@BenBrocka Not necessarily, you can get the quest for the Evil Smasher before you actually have to go through Sawtooth Cauldron for the main quest.

I'm sad TF2 didn't make it on to the list though. We should have had a marathon where donations came in hats.

@tombull89 I'm interested....do you still have it?

MANA!

@Mana

I had no clue you and Gnome were like gay BFFs!

Mana

@Retrosaur the fact that you would take an article like that about someone doing something stupid and generalize it to be about women being silly in general really lowers my respect for you.

But maybe I take things like that too seriously.

Retrosaur

03:26

No, you're completely right.

But, take a look at this.

express.co.uk/news/uk/358435/…

Ben Brocka

The latest in royal women's wear no doubt

Retrosaur

is that a shoop

Ben Brocka

Given the felt texture it's either real or a very convincing fake

Makes a phone call. "OH GOD PLEAS DON'T PICK UP"

Tweeted by Worrier on February 17, 2013 at 8:01 PM

Me, calling in sick

Retrosaur

03:51

YESSS

Lazers

0

Q: Getting a lot of money in Far Cry 3?

I just started playing the game today. Two hours in and I already have about 1500+ dollars !! I just feel that it's really easy to get money : Looting, selling items, mini quests etc. Also, some stores will sell weapons for FREE as I have read somewhere in the guide ?? This makes the game so easy...

far-cry-3

Lazers

05:09

0

Q: AD Thresh, possible or not?

I have seen some people playing AD thresh and I have always played him more tanky. Is AD thresh a viable build?

league-of-legends

fbueckert

Note: Driving in blowing snow is hella scary.

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert Oh god Mistwraiths

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot Mistwraiths aren't bad.

OrigamiRobot

I didn't say they were.

They are, however, terrifying.

@StrixVaria asked what Lovecraftian was. Mistwraiths are Lovecraftian.

fbueckert

Formless blobs of goo that can take the place of other creatures.

OrigamiRobot

05:22

That they've eaten.

fbueckert

How else are you supposed to figure out how their muscles are put together?

I only wrote in caps because I was extremely pissed off that people downvoted without saying why. Because it has happened to me many times. Which yes is my own fault. But nevertheless it is extremely irritating — Kecoey 49 mins ago

Perhaps if you're getting downvoted often, you should take a look at the common thread.

And if it's your own fault, why are you getting mad about it!?

OrigamiRobot

@Kecoey Also, regarding the rules of this site - they are there because the StackExchange network is deliberately unlike most other online communities. These sites are dedicated to generating useful Q&A content that helps more than just one person asking one question. The rules are there because they have worked toward this end. Regardless of whether or not you like them, you should try to honor them or - just as with any other community - expect to have a bad experience. If you have questions or suggestions, check out: FAQ, About, and Science Fiction and Fantasy Meta. — Iszi 42 mins ago

Why is that linking to SciFi's meta?

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot I haven't the foggiest.

Stealth plug?

OrigamiRobot

Also, I found this

10

Q: Where can I find Chip's Challenge Legally?

I'd like to buy/download/play Chip's Challenge on my Windows 7 PC. Where can I buy this game? If there's an iPhone port, I'd also buy that.

pc

Silly '10 questions. How adorable.

fbueckert

What makes Steam a "gaming platform" and Amazon not? — Kyralessa 1 min ago

...I'm going to break my desk.

I liked Mr. Old Gamer re-posting his question after it got closed.

It shows that some generation gaps can be bridged.

OrigamiRobot

05:31

@fbueckert I get the feeling he is being intentionally ignorant.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot Almost guaranteed. If he comes up with another bullshit question, I'm done. He's not asking in good faith.

OrigamiRobot

See also: Why can't I use Jeff Atwoods gravatar?

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot Yeah, that was a fun one.

Bets on him looking for anything on Amazon that can be miscontrued to represent friend's lists, him asking it, then freaking the hell out when we close it.

Well, regardless, I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see any of that, 'cuz I'm seriously tired.

G'night, Bridge!

Ktash

wow, have you seen the user description?

Lazers

0

Q: Can Pets' Attacks Crit?

Simply put, do pets have the chance to crit when they attack? If so, would the critical damage be improved by Infinity Edge if bought?

league-of-legends

fbueckert

05:44

yesterday, by fbueckert

> If you spend your time finding two-or-three-year-old questions to close, perhaps it's a sign that you need a real hobby. (One would think, if you post here, that gaming would be enough of a hobby.)

It used to be that.

Oh, same thing. Never mind.

I'm tired.

Ktash

yeah, I saw it the other day, but it is crazy to put it in your description

I saw it as a comment though

fbueckert

@Ktash It's them taking the closure of the old, crappy question personally, and getting all bent out of shape about it.

Ktash

yeah...

psh, users

Fluttershy

@Ktash I fight for the users!

Ktash

06:00

The users are all useless, just ask @OrigamiRob

OrigamiRobot

@Ktash ಠ_ಠ

Fluttershy

06:24

@Ktash Could you skip cutscenes in Kingdom Hearts II?

Ktash

@Fluttershy Yes. Probably the most requested feature for II lol

Fluttershy

@Ktash Gotcha. Thanks!

Ktash

I don't think an image can get more epic

Retrosaur

06:45

@ktash Challenge accepted

njallam

07:01

If anyone is interested, I made a subreddit for when games giveaway free stuff: reddit.com/r/gamepromos

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

07:45

I can't use a ruler to stiffen the bookmark because the ruler is thicker than the paper used, so if I close the book the bookmark will fold along the ruler @badp

djsmiley2k

08:34

Morning yall

njallam

hi

I don't suppose anyone here is familiar with styling subreddits?

OK, solved it

djsmiley2k

09:10

D: urgh

why does my body feel like I've been beaten up each morning ?!

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

09:34

0

Q: Minecraft redstone level system? [SOLVED]

Ok,so i'm making a map which needs a level system.Level system i mean,like this: you push the button first time,output A lights up. you push the button second time,output B lights up. you push the button third time,output C lights up. And etc...i need some help i tried RS NOR LATCH but shit happe...

minecraft minecraft-redstone

*sigh*

"But shit happened"

Well, fuck

djsmiley2k

09:55

well dang.

badp

@YiJiang'sEvilClone You will just have to be specific with the shape of the ruler fragment!!!

Ladineko

Yo

Lazers

10:14

0

Q: Gear for Pandaria

I play a Holy priest / Shadow priest (for questing) and im currently level 85. However how can i achieve gear fast that highers my gear level to unlock the dungeons in Pandaria? Also, how is your average gear level defined?

world-of-warcraft

0

Q: is running speed deteremined by distance or coins or score

As a strategic motive, I would like to speed up less, but I don't know how running velocity is calculated? Is it fixed to the meters run, so not much can be done about it? Or to coins, so I could collect less coins if my primary goal was to maximize distance or score? Or is the speed caused by ...

ios android temple-run temple-run-2

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

10:33

*yawn*

djsmiley2k

indeed.

Lazers

10:47

0

Q: Should I upgrade a Shield Talisman to level 2

I upgraded a Guardian Amulet Lvl 2 (critical: protect) to a Shield Talisman (Auto: Protect) Lvl1. It now has 600 EXP, and turns to a Lvl 2 at 1500 EPX. Does it have any beneficial effect to upgrade it to Lvl 2? For example better protection, or longer duration of the effect?

final-fantasy-13

badp

you'd think that toll number support services (I spent ~€2) wouldn't take you for a stroll through their menus and then ask you to rate the service after you're done talking with the person who didn't even say his name when asked to

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

I spent ~$8 for a half hour call on my prepaid mobile line to my ISP's tech support just so that they can walk through all of the usual troubleshooting options and finally send someone in to replace the router

because the residential telephone line also went through the router (digital voice line)

kalina

I hate making calls to tech support, where I've already done all the diagnostics required but get asked repeatedly to do them again

especially when I say something like "my router is completely dead" and get "and what are you basing that on, ma'am?"

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

HN has been down for a few hours, hmmmm

@kalina My problem was a bit more subtle. Error lights on the router indicates a connection problem, but the tech support person said everything looked fine from their side.

kalina

yeah it all looked fine from their side

I'm sat with a router in my hands that won't switch on

getting told to turn it off and on again

Yi Jiang's Evil Clone

10:58

Ahahahaha

They had me first switch on and off the router, then reset my router, then they reset the connection on their side, then had me look at the router configuration, then when all that failed they finally sent someone through

kalina

well my connection has two devices

the first one establishes the connection and the other is just a router

so I just plugged my PC into the first box and set up a pppoe connection

and then they closed the call because "my internet is working"

Transcript for