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2:14 AM
@enderland Sorry to disappoint enderland! I didn't want to just explain why it's a problem without offering a solution -- would you like me to expand the "why it's a problem" portion?
7 hours later…
9:13 AM
Q: Professional arguments taken personally

Noob UnChainedI recently had an argument with my Team Lead over the correct and plausible solution to one of the technical problems . Ever since he has taken that argument personally and have stopped interacting with me , other than when he needs to allot me tasks . He is also bad mouthing me in front of other...

Last i checked, there was no such thing as a professional argument...
9:31 AM
@Chad ahh help, came in this morning to another charity email from another different coworker XD i swear it hits that part of the year every year where everyone wants donations all at once
2 hours later…
11:26 AM
@RhysW you can wire me $1,000 whenever you want I'll use it to buy things which are shiny and fun! :)
11:52 AM
@RhysW An argument is a statement defended with evidence
An argument in the formal sense (debate, law) is very different from what many people consider to be an "argument" which is just a shouting match
12:25 PM
@Benbrocka perhaps jsut a cultural thing then, an argument to me does not mean that
@Shog9 Question related to this proposal: Is the tag line for a site comprised of two parts (topic and audience) or is it a single phrase containing both parts?
that down voting stint of mine yesterday earned me a badge it seems!
12:41 PM
@RhysW I would love to donate for your cause but my kid needs leg braces because of the beating I gave him for asking for money. So I do not have any spare right now!
I've learned to say "no, not this time" to those things
(it implies that I do give to charity so I'm not a bad person, but I don't want to this time) :)
I wouldnt mind donating so much if most major charities were not run by wealthy heirs and heiresses that take steep salaries for the privilege.
I do donate to charities and people who want to do it, i just cant say yes every time or i end up being the one needing to ask for handouts, the issue is that from my point of view, its acceptable, but from the other peoples point of view, they only see a No and people always seem to assume the worst
@Chad i wouldnt mind so much if people allowed you to donate without the need to constantly come to your house, hand out flyers, send you emails, newsletters, post, magazines, leaflets and try to bully you into it through advertisements and tv. Seems most major charities just pressure you into donating and if you refuse then youre a bad person
@RhysW Just say no! oh wait that is just supposed to be bad peer pressure :p
12:56 PM
@RhysW I figure if they have TV commercials, they don't need money that badly
@Rachel true, if they cared about helping that much they would spend their millions on advertising on helping people. If they do enough good people will donate through word of mouth
@BenBrocka I differentiate between arguing and discussing, the former has the other not caring what I'm saying, the latter is both people trying to find a best solution/sitaution/etc
@enderland that was my understanding of the two words too, but apparently i was wrong judging from the community input
I don't argue with people, period - I just stop the conversation if that's happening
but I will always discuss things - of any sort
The company working hours are 19:30-17:30 he is basically expecting everyone to get in an extra half an hour early to attend these hour long meetings, thanks for the above comments and yes I would prefer to be flexible. I have repeatedly asked if I can work 9-5 but it has been refused, now I'm being asked 'to go the extra mile' when there is nothing given in return. Bit of a one way street if you ask me — spences10 4 mins ago
i could use some help with this one, i thought i had all the bases covered in my answer but this just takes the cake!
¬_¬ why wont that post xD
cant post the link to the question for some reason....
1:21 PM
Q: Meeting starting before I'm scheduled to start

spences10My scheduled hours of my office are 09:30-17:30 and we have a big project on which will cost the company lots of money if it fails. The project manager for this project has scheduled reoccurring meetings @ 09:00 for the next three weeks. I get in at 09:00 every day but I usually do most of my p...

thanks, dunno why that wouldnt work for me
it just kept reposting the quote
this question bothers me
some people are strict on their working hours i guess
want the company to go out of its way to help them, without helping in return
@enderland but at the same time companies try to take advantage of this and will try to do this frequently, you end up working days extra a year in unpaid hours, which is also ridiculous to ask your employees for
@RhysW it sounds like this guy is a "5:30 and I'm out of here no matter what's going on" type guy
@enderland some are like that, you cant really blame them the way some companies treat employees, perhaps a bad experience in the past
or he has no concept of professional appearances
but as always i will assume that the OP is in the right, we never do get both sides of the story
1:29 PM
This guy is willing to commit career suicide over 30 min a day for 3 weeks on a critical project
what time was that posted in UK time?
apparently so
during working hours probabyl?
um lemme see
im in working hours so yes
oh hold on
asked at half 8 apparently
so before his work begins
however his recent commenting most certainly is in work hours ;D
1:32 PM
@enderland Formally that's not really what arguing is, discussing is different because arguing is attempting to persuade. It's better described as "bickering" if no one is responsive to anyone else
Also, I'm assuming since you are so strict on your work hours that you are planning on working later (many of your recent comments came during this sacred 9:30-17:30 time) today to account for the time you've spent on non-work related work, right? — enderland 8 secs ago
not sure if thats appropriate or not
@BenBrocka meh, I guess most of the people I'm around have a ismilar definition as I do
XD i give it 20 minutes before its flagged
My definition of argument is basically you insist you are right, refuse to accept the other view, and can lead to raised voices,
whereas discussion is more diplomatic and open minded
thats how pretty much everyone from my area uses it too
so probably just a local culture thing
well except @BenBrocka lives about 3 hours from me :P
@enderland They do, but it's annoying because discussing has no implication of persuasive arguments, which really are a distinct thing from both senseless bickering and (generally non-persuasive) discussion
3 hours is a scalar quantity, 3 hours travelling at the speed of light is a large didstance ;)
1:36 PM
My speedometer doesn't quite go up to Speed of Light
@BenBrocka I consider persuasive arguments to normally be discussions though (or very formalized)
most people don't do either
Discussion has no implication of different view points though
^ Then its a conversation
a discussion where everyone agrees is a conversation to me
And a discussion where everyone agrees with the boss is called a meeting!
@BenBrocka I guess I see discussion as "here is a topic multiple people are trying to better understand" and argument as "I want to convince someone how wrong they are"
2:07 PM
@RhysW And what is a discussion where there is disagreement?
@Chad if two people are both trying to find the answer - rather than prove the other wrong
@enderland I voted to close that question as not constructive. He is expected to work an extra half hour a day. What should he do? Work an extra half hour a day
@enderland What if there is no right or wrong answer. There are 2 ways of accomplishing something. But you can only choose one
each has advantages and disadvantages
@Chad then that is a worthwhile conclusion from a convesration :) I find that normally, teh difference between arguing and discussing is "are we asking about why do you believe this vs just the details
@Chad I don't think that's a question that should be closed
The question about what you can, should, or are expected to do when you're asked to attend regular meetings outside of your scheduled working hours is a common one
@Rachel The answer is you work them or you do not.
2:12 PM
Q: Can we change our tag line?

RachelOur current tag line is members of the workforce navigating the professional setting This is used everywhere to describe the site. It shows up in the Google description of the site, in the very top of our FAQ, at the beginning of the about page, on migration links, etc The Workplace Sta...

@Chad The correct answer is to ask your manager about it
Regarding this, has SE really changed the tagline for many sites?
It seemed like after they stopped doing domain names they started focusing on the tag line, but I'm not aware of any sites actually doing something
@BenBrocka I have no idea, but I don't think it's very clear about our scope/topic
(I would like us to have a better tag line, I'm just hoping that trying to find one isn't futile)
Closest I can think of is Cog Sci's change:
@Rachel I think that's good, but a FAR better thing for us would be to have a meta post which is "how to ask a good question here" guide type of thing
2:14 PM
I have a suspicion that the tag line is created in two parts from Area51: The audience and the topic (I created a proposal on area 51 and it prompted me for both pieces of information)
so when we close questions people can have a link to a "how to make a question approrpiate for here" type link
Q: Our site description should be changed to match our new welcome message

Josh GitlinWe asked for and we received a new welcome message for our site: This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for practitioners, researchers, and students in cognitive science, psychology, neuroscience, and psychiatry. I believe our description should also be changed everywhe...

@enderland I would be all for that, but I don't have time to write one. I'd help proof read and edit someone else's post though :)
@Rachel It does appear to be editable
maybe I'll do taht sometiem
2:15 PM
cogsci's welcome message is This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for practitioners, researchers, and students in cognitive science, psychology, neuroscience, and psychiatry. but the area51 page reads Beta Q&A site for practitioners and research professionals of the cognitive sciences
@BenBrocka Can moderators modify the tag line? I am curious about the exact verbage around where the tag line is used
And when your manager says you should work it?

Your manager doesnt control your hours outside of work. Like chad says only you can decide to work it or not
@Rachel No, though mods can edit the first section of the About page. Devs can, if you put up a good enough case
And if it's something stored in a database somewhere and inserted into templates, or if each page is manually modified (FAQ, About, site descriptions, etc)
Here's what we can edit on About:
2:17 PM
@RhysW Then you work it if you want to avoid problems at your job. And don't forget to ask to leave early that day too to make up for the 'extra' time you're working
@BenBrocka Oh cool, that's good to know
I was struggling to find some wording that would fit the wording everywhere I saw the tag line used
@BenBrocka wow imgur ftl. I kept trying to get a cursor in the text box
@Rachel at first on Cog Sci only the "Welcome to X!" message was changed I think. Though they did stress berevity for those blurbs
the first part of /about could easily be more detailed than the rest though
And /about doesn't propagate anywhere (that I know of) so it can be pretty much whatever, I think. Just not crazy long
@BenBrocka Can you modify the top of the FAQ, the Migration path descriptions for the site, or the Don't Ask section of the FAQ that says "if your question would be of interest to ... <<TagLine>>, then ask on <<siteName>>"?
I'm trying to figure out if those 3 are linked or not
2:22 PM
That's what we can edit on the FAQ
it's everything between "What kind of questions can I ask here?" and "Please look around to see if your question has been asked before. It’s also OK to ask and answer your own question."
Dunno where the migration path description comes from
@BenBrocka Ok thanks :)
But since we're Beta it does'nt really matter. Only mods can migrate here and the mod migration tool doesn't show descriptions
oh yeah, and the "What kind of questions should I not ask here?" part of the FAQ is auto-generated. The "questions not about" part of the programmers FAQ is manually shoehorned in to the "what can I ask" part because that's all we can edit
Workplace's "What questions are off topic here?" is done just like that (though I gave it a header, so it looks like it's separate)
@BenBrocka Thank you for that information :)
chat keeps saying there is more messages, but im not getting any of them
I've updated my meta proposal to try and focus on the parts we can modify (top of the FAQ and the top of the About page). I think google links and migration links come from the Target Audience specified in the Area51 proposal, and is probably only modified by the dev team
2:32 PM
@enderland a help vampire, sounds like something from a Dilbert sketch
Q: Can we update our site description (tag line) in the FAQ and About pages?

RachelOur current tag line is members of the workforce navigating the professional setting This is used everywhere to describe the site. It shows up in the Google description of the site, in the very top of our FAQ, at the beginning of the about page, on migration links, etc The Workplace Sta...

@Rachel google (awkwardly) shows the first front page question's text instead of a site description anyway
@Rachel I agree we should change it... I just do not know how to word it to communicate this is not dear workplace.
Looks like only graduated sites get the meta description tag which has the "User Experience Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for user experience researchers and experts. It's 100% free, no registration required." bit
@Chad Making it clear what it is can also be an effective way of implying what it isn't
But the wording is a challenge
@BenBrocka I was curious why the Workplace description didn't show up quite like other SE sites do in Google searches, and that would explain it :)
2:39 PM
Thanks @Chad, I'm not expecting that the choice is made for me, just trying to canvas opinion. — spences10 6 mins ago
That is why that question should be closed
What does everyone think about X is not constructive
@Chad idk I think it might be, what do you think?
@enderland I dont know ask the unicorn :p
@chad i think it has the makings of a good question, lots of people are likely to want to know their choices when pressured to work outside of work, theres a few different ways it can be approached
@enderland heeey that sounds like my attemt to help jim! "By nature they feed on generous individuals who tend towards helping others, and leave their victims exhausted, bitter and dispirited."
@RhysW I think your answer was a great way to approach the question... but that was not what the OP wanted. He wanted the omg your are right your boss is unfair
@Chad thats all anyone wants
Though i still told him to work it XD
2:43 PM
@Chad "questions, not surveys" might be something to hint at?
If you have a legally-binding contract that stipulates specific hours and the company won't let you change them even for a few weeks, that contract takes precedence over someone wanting you to "go the extra mile." Show up at 9:30. I would also advise not arriving at work any earlier. – Blrfl 27 mins ago
not sure what to make of this
Q: How should one handle an unnecessary question?

JoelFanA fairly common experience is that a colleague or subordinate will ask a question (in person, email, phone, etc) that would have been answered if they would have properly read all the correspondence, accessed the electronic systems, etc that they already know about as clear parts of their expecte...

does that question come from the redunancy department of redundancy :p
@Rachel yes (be specific: which area are you talking about? There are separate strings for audience and topic, and a combined description that usually contains both used in different contexts)
@Chad i would answer but i think my answer would be redundant
@RhysW I think that the question we should be asking is are there unnecessary questions?
2:46 PM
@Chad if you have to ask that question then yes!
Should I an answer of copy the link to chat and make fun of it?
@chad um, what? :P
sigh it has 3 answers in 15 mintues...
@Chad if this problem happens so frequently, surely the OP is really bad at wording emails...
and should work on not blaming everyone else
@RhysW Which goes back to the question I really want to ask: How do I make my coworkers not be stupid?
2:50 PM
@Chad simple, i work in a mirror factory
@RhysW OMG I would be surrounded by idiots
@Chad facepalm just dont smash the mirrors while youre there
A: How should one handle an unnecessary question?

Kate GregoryTwo things irritate me in the workplace: people who interrupt me and ask me things they should already know or can easily find out for themselves people who use more words and time to refuse to answer a question of mine than it would have taken to answer it I am aware that these form a contra...

this doesn't actually address the question the asker is asking - which is how to handle the question
i dont understand the rant at the beginning of that @enderland
it gives some advice on how to avoid them, but not really how to handle them
2:53 PM
@Chad spences10 accepted my answer, then ignored all its advice and says he is going to start work at 9:30 and go to th emeeting halfway through
@RhysW I've had that happen here before too lol
@RhysW I think that is a smashing Idea. I suspect it will solve someone elses unemployment problem
i mean im happy for the rep, counters my recent downvote spree recently but still
@Chad its fine, means i get to answer two more of his questions
"Why did i get fired"
"Why will no-one else hire me when i tell them why i was fired"
@RhysW ROFL what I was going to say :p
oh and

"why did my wife leave me, i promised i would pick the kids up at 3:30, i cant help that school closed early and they needed picking up at 2, that wasnt my agreed responsibility"
2:56 PM
I have been moved to a closet in the basement, my manager took my stapler, and am nolonger recieving my paycheck. What should i do
If some people applied their work ethic to their entire lives they would never get anywhere, people think its some special case, that they dont need to put effort in to succeed because their paycheck doesnt say that
@Chad keep going to work indefinitely
Well I have my answer @Chad, thanks for your input – spences10 5 mins ago
@chad nobody seems to like when you chip in with your input anymore!
Q: How should one handle an unnecessary question?

JoelFanA fairly common experience is that a colleague or subordinate will ask a question (in person, email, phone, etc) that would have been answered if they would have properly read all the correspondence, accessed the electronic systems, etc that they already know about as clear parts of their expecte...

no wonder there are so many help vampires
EVERYONE seems to want to enable them
@enderland im totally stealing the term help vampires from you from now on! just so you know ;)
3:01 PM
@enderland I dont know why did you post an answer to that question?
@Chad har har har.
@enderland thats called cow tipping
@Chad Youre asking unnecessary questions again!
@enderland Personally I get a deer in the headlights look on my face, then start to panic... "I dont know how can we find out before the boss does? Omg someone is going to lose there job but it wont be me." Then go into super parniod mode until everyone leaves me alone. After the first couple times no one will ever ask you anything again
@Chad I feel like this would be a great answer :)
@enderland I think you underestimate the willingness of our users to upvote horrible answers like that
3:10 PM
@chad judging by all the ones above 30 votes i downvoted yesterday...
@Chad it takes 100 upvotes to get that badge - I don't think I'm underestiating ;)
I just wrote, in a document I am writing for work
"First, ask your manager"
@enderland lol how come?
@RhysW writing some documentation and it's approprriate
@Shog9 Thanks. Ben Brocka was actually able to provide some extra information about how the FAQ and About pages are modified, so my meta proposal got modified to focus on just those two areas. Originally I was thinking the tag line was just a single phrase that was inserted in many templates through the SE network, so I was just wondering if the tag line was comprised of two separate fields for Topic and Audience, or if it was a single text phrase.
@enderland glad im not the only one on document duty!
3:17 PM
@enderland when you get to the slapping and quitting parts it will be even more fun
@chad he should slap the boss with the document, and make sure the document is a letter of resignation
April fools :p
Q: Meeting starting before I'm contracted to start working

spences10I want this question removed, I posted a perfectly legitimate question and have been totally shot down in the comments

pink sl(a/i)p
@enderland approved the rollback, anyone else wanna help :D
3:22 PM
it's rolled back
Who wants to write the comment to tell him he can flag to have comments removed or that he can make a meta post?
He wants the question removed because he was given answers he did not like
@enderland Honestly, I thought your two comments here were a bit rude
i told him he could come to meta or flag comments
@Rachel I've removed one (waiting for 5 seconds for the other, lol @Shog9 :P)
3:24 PM
@enderland Thanks :)
I don't see a problem with the question. It's one I had early on when I first started working, and was told I would be working hourly 8-4, but then told later after I started that I was expected to be in 15 minutes early every Friday for a weekly company-wide meeting
@Rachel what a strange contract
@RhysW It wasn't a contract, it was simply a min. wage job
@Rachel I think that should be clarified in the question then - is the contract 930-1730? is he salaried with standard working hours? Is he billing time? etc all affect this question
but you had a working contract right? that said when you would start and finish work, what your wage was etc
@RhysW I don't think so... I just signed the regular "sign these papers to officially begin your employment" papers. I don't think hours were mentioned
3:27 PM
well that shut me up :)
@enderland lol I switched to salary and was told (a year later at my review) that I was supposed to be in 15 minutes early every single day like all the other salaried employees
lol, now im getting flamed for explaining to the new guy what options are available to him
So I think it's a valid question regardless of if you're paid salary or hourly, although that should be clarified if possible
@Rachel but the answer makes a huuuuge difference
if you are salaried and don't have working hours your options are as @Chad says
@squeemish not anymore no, they have been removed by the original owner of the comments

whilst a nice anwser, it isnt really relevant, the asker doesnt want to know how to avoid it again, they want to know how to solve it NOW
3:31 PM
@enderland Those are your options no matter what your pay type is. You comply, ignore, or quit. what other options are possible
@Chad fill out 30 more minutes on your timesheet
@Chad my options? :D (which is basically comply, split into more granularity)
@enderland That would be compliance
@RhysW Most of your answer is just versions of compliance and non compliance
@Chad yup, thats what i was going for :)
lol chad, i saw that ;)
4:10 PM
@enderland Salaried people often have standard work hours as well. This is usually the minimum expectation though not the full expectation
4:27 PM
@Rachel Yeah... There are three fields that every site starts out with that propagate to the rest. Some descriptions (such as /faq and /about) can be customized separately, others cannot.
4:41 PM
@Shog9 Thanks. What's the 3rd field? (I'm assuming the first two are Topic and Audience)
@Rachel name
(for The Workplace, the topic and name are the same, save for capitalization)
@Chad you should have added that sarcastic answer to the unnecessary questions question...
@Shog9 Makes sense, thank you! :)
5:18 PM
@Rachel - Why are you not making that an answer instead of just a comment?
I cant wait for win 8.1
win 8.1? whats special about it?
restoring boot to desktop and the start button
allowing us to basically disable metro
ah, yay
i would consider getting it then xD
5:41 PM
win7 ftw
5:52 PM
@Chad Are you're talking about this comment? If so, I thought @RhysW covered most of it in his answer so I didn't need to post another one :)
6:17 PM
Then why bother commenting
someone's gotta create comments for me to flag to delete... eerrrr, you wanted a more serious answer
@enderland please do... I hate when someone asks an unneccesary question because they did not read everything that was posted :p
@Rachel btw the op said he already tried the route you suggested and was shot down... that was kind of in the question... well more it was in the question than kind of
the unnecessary question question is now a "top question" or whatever, wonder when it'll pick up the normal spammish answers
sign only 2 close votes :(
6:23 PM
that question
it has 0 close votes (??)
the uncessary one
lol i was talking about the 30 minutes of work longer each day
The OP probably should have included a uk tag since the laws there are different than the assumed US that we do :p
@Chad I voted to leave that one open, as I think it's a good question for the site although it could benefit from a few more details
6:35 PM
Users suggesting that askers should quit will now be required to purchase cake for the going-away party:
6:55 PM
@BenBrocka For this show?
Farewell this Shop?
in really small letters :p
I think it's Free: this shoe
ohh that makes alot more sense
7:14 PM
OMG it works I came back from 8 years in the future... it turns out that the answer really is quit your job and slap your boss
@Chad its not a time machene :P
its a prediction machine with high accuracy
by basically lying
and making generic assumptions
like fortune tellers
waves hand a great evil will befall you
and me saying that the answer really is quit your job and slap your boss :p
10 years later when you trip over
Oh my god they were right!!
7:29 PM
> I slapped my boss and he promoted me over him. Am I now subject to slapping by him or is this harassment?
@BenBrocka yes so you should quit!
Q: How can I say that I have X years of experience but I've never worked

yzTI have more than ten years of experience in IT, but I've never worked. This experience is about daily usage, troubleshooting, bachelor's, own learning, etc, and when I'm applying to a job I know that I'm capable of handle it. In the profile section of my resume I'm saying that I have ten years ...

what am I missing about why this isn't ridiculous
7:49 PM
How can I inflate my non existant experience to appear that I have 10 years of experience with out listing fake jobs i did not hold
@Chad that's what I read it to be
We could suggest that he list a "Confidential" employer.
I spent the last 15 years as an international spy until my country burned me. Now I am stuck in Miami with no job. What should I do?
I will say that explains the reason for:
Q: How can I get feedback on why my resume is not getting me interviews?

yzTI've been looking for job since July and I have got only one interview. I'm realistic, I'm a recent grad so I'm applying for intership/entry level positions, not mid/senior ones. I'm not even applying for entry positions in which they ask for more than a year experience. I'm kind of desperate ri...

My resume contains my name address and a few schools i went to part time but did not graduate from. Any idea why I can not get an interview for a senior programmer position?
@Chad but he has 10 years experience
I know I dont know why he isnt landing offers left right and center
8:06 PM
i feel like that is a terrible question but super easy to get free rep for
so annoying when those have that combination
more importantly, why has only one of the two of you voted to close if its so bad ;)
people like this person are why we have to have pointless HR phone screens or other HR interviews to make sure we actually did what we wrote on our resumes
Q: Taking a job after already tentatively accepting another offer

user8039I am currently employed at a middle-sized company. The pay and work environment aren't great, so I've been looking for another job for the past few months. About 5 weeks ago (March 11 for the sake of simplicity), I interviewed at a large Fortune 500 company (let's call it "Company A"). I felt li...

are there substantcial differences beween those two/
8:33 PM
it drives me nuts when people post answers before questions get closed

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