The Water Cooler

RhysW

08:29

@jmort253 Yeah sounds about right, would have replied sooner, but the whole stack went down again whilst i was mid-reply :/

jmort253

@RhysW Yeh, I figured you got caught up in all that.

RhysW

You reckon workplace will end up with 4 mods then? (you said subtracting the 4 diamonds)

jmort253

Oh no, I was accounting for Oded, as he's a top user.

RhysW

Ahh I see, that makes sense

jmort253

He's our #5 user.

RhysW

08:32

Why would we count him out though?

jmort253

Whenever I look at who can vote, I don't count people who can't technically vote.

You may notice Oded closes the really really bad off-topic stuff, but he doesn't close vote like he used to.

A healthy Stack Exchange site has enough regular community users to where there's balance, to where it really does take 5 people to perform an action and it doesn't all have to be one person acting unilaterally.

Hope that helps clarify.

RhysW

Yeah it definitely does, forgot Oded was a comm manager and not just a mod

jmort253

Developer, actually.

Oded ♦, London, United Kingdom

15.1k 3 46 80

RhysW

oh! theres some sort of irony in the fact that he visits workplace when he helped make it, for his job... 0.o

CMW

Well isn't that what the stuff one builds should be for? :)

'eat your own dogfood' and all?

RhysW

08:41

haha morning CMW

CMW

morning :)

RhysW

08:53

@jmort253 how do you want us to tackle things like this:

0

A: How do I cheer up the team after someone is fired?

Thank you - I have agonised since before Xmas about this team member. His technical skills are strong but his is combatative at every turn. Some of my team have been taking a "sick" day off (without pay) just to get away. It can't go on and yet I feel so responsible for this man. Tomorrow mo...

sidenote, people might want to keep an eye on the answers coming into:

14

Q: Informing customers about the death of an employee

If you have an employee who has an impersonal, but professional relationship with some of your customers (say, an account manager or a sales representative) and the employee passes away unexpectedly, should you inform your customers that they have passed? Or should you just treat the situation as...

customer-service death

hit hot questions and is starting to accrue a lot of answers

CMW

@RhysW I would think NAA

jmort253

Yeh, First one is NAA.

CMW

second one is rather interesting

jmort253

Hey tortured, I'm glad to hear our site has helped you, but posting a comment in the "answers" section isn't really how our site works. If you wish to be a contributor, check out our about page, which gives you an idea of how you can get started. Hope this helps! — jmort253 28 secs ago

RhysW

@CMW Oh yeah definitely not an answer, just not sure how best he wanted it tackled so we werent scaring people away rather than educating them as to how the site works

@jmort253 seems like the best idea, comment then delete, but will he still get notified of that comment if you deleted the answer?

jmort253

09:05

Yeh, I mean, in general, there's no reason to be mean to people, especially when they're being positive, but a large part of how people will learn is by folks reaching out and saying "hey, that's awesome, but we don't do X here".

Imagine going to a party and doing something socially awkward in the group, we always appreciate that person who quietly pulls us aside and tells us what's up. :D

RhysW

that's my usual method, wasn't sure if they would see it if it's on a deleted answer though

CMW

@RhysW I think they will still get a message about the comment. And IIRC every user can see their deleted posts

jmort253

When a mod leaves a comment and deletes an answer, the user will see it in the inbox.

RhysW

@jmort253 ahh ok, more advantageous than a user leaving a message only for it to be deleted then

jmort253

Makes it easier to dispatch stuff like that, and is usually why I comment on stuff I remove even if someone else already commented.

RhysW

09:07

(which i will still do anyway)

jmort253

As for the 2nd post, the question. I thought it was a good question, and I even answered it, but some of the answers leave a lot to be desired.

One is well written, but I think folks just saw it as wrong....

so I wouldn't remove it... that's just the normal community vetting process there at work.

RhysW

@jmort253 yeah that was my issue with it, I have half a mind to protect it just to stop bandwagoning with the 'i dont like this' answers, but im wary of protecting everything just because it goes popular

jmort253

@RhysW Everyone who posted is a regular anyway.

RhysW

That's why i just posted in here instead, because I recognised the users

jmort253

@RhysW Basically, the challenge is where we want to fall as a site and a community.

RhysW

09:11

Though most of what i know about moderation comes from our conversations btw, so thanks for that (Y)

jmort253

On one hand, you have sites where pretty much you can ask anything and no one will flinch.

Then you have Skeptics, where not only do answers have to be backed up, but even the questions themselves have to have citations.

RhysW

Yeah, that one works really well for that site, imagine all the questions that would arise otherwise!

jmort253

For Workplace, I feel like we fall somewhere in the middle.

Yeh, Skeptics had to do what they did or they wouldn't be around... that... and I really feel like when I read something on that site that I feel pretty confident someone isn't just pulling my leg.

You know what I mean?

Because there's so much research that one can feel reasonably confident someone isn't just making stuff up.

RhysW

Yeah, that sort of trust that what is written there is most likely fact based, purely because no one would accept it if it wasn't

jmort253

And, Skeptics is different than Workplace.

RhysW

09:15

I think us being 'in the middle' is advantageous to us, as most of our issues are about dealing with people, and dealing with people has a lot of variation

We are prettymuch the HR department of SE

jmort253

If I find an article that suggests you tell your clients that Bob, the account manager who helped 3 of those clients solve criitcal, ongoing business problems, has died, you can feel reasonably confident that what I tell you isn't going to result in any massive blowups.

We're not trying to disprove claims here. :)

For most stuff here, if it's blatantly wrong, it's gonna get voted down to smithereens.

RhysW

yeah and i really like that

some people here just 'get' how people tick and how situations usually play out

like yourself, hlgem, oded, bethlakshmi, joe, just to name a few

jmort253

The back it up rule, early on, helped this site from becoming Yahoo HR Answers.

RhysW

I wasn't around much for the beginning period, but I imagine it was hard to show a difference to users between the two

jmort253

@RhysW So for RobM's answer... this is a tough one.

-2

A: Informing customers about the death of an employee

I think it's wise to let the customer set the pace. If they don't ask then do go into details, in the same way that you wouldn't go into details if $x was on sick leave, unless the person you were speaking to obviously had a more in-depth relationship and asked after them.

So, really, the main problem here is substance. There just isn't a lot of content.

But it can still be improved to perhaps help fight some of our biases.

For instance, I'm going to edit out the words "I think", which instantly triggers our "OMG primarily opinion based" filters.

RhysW

09:22

Definitely, its got the makings of an answer, i usually try to get people to expand past what into why. e.g he says 'I think it wise' so i usually get him to question why that is wise

@jmort253 workplace.stackexchange.com/search?q=is%3Aanswer++I+think

jmort253

On second thought, that feels really minor... I'm not gonna do that... if there were more things wrong, I'd edit that out...

@RhysW Ouch.

Pandora's box.

Wonder if there's a script that can pull all of those out.

RhysW

@jmort253 some of them are incorrectly pulled

jmort253

To me, that's what makes the difference between an authoritative answer and one that isn't. You can be correct, but if you don't sound confident, I wonder, does that diminish the value of what's here?

Jim G.

2

A: We need to downvote answers more (even mediocre ones)

From the linked blog post, there are specific qualities desired in subjective answers: The Back It Up! Principle: Something that happened to you personally Something you can back up with a reference {...} Our FAQ even specifically has this text: Please note tha...

jmort253

Clearly, that's not the case, or we wouldn't have a shiny new design waiting for us.

RhysW

09:26

@jmort253 I always thought the same actually, I think sounds so much weaker than 'Research shows'

Jim G.

^^^ @RhysW: Here is the "Back It Up" Principle clarified.

RhysW

Sometimes that rule can be wrong though it seems

7

A: How should I address an email application if I don't have the last name of the receiver?

You do not need to start an email with a salutation. Just start writing. 99% of the emails I receive professionally have no salutation.

Jim G.

@RhysW: There was some confusion at the site's inception about what the "Back It Up" principle really was.

jmort253

@RhysW I guess it's not bad. Just, compared to answers that say "here's some research on the subject" or "I have experience with that personally, or as HR, etc".

RhysW

@jmort253 yeah, evidence based seems much easier to agree with than someone saying 'well this could happen, i guess'

jmort253

09:29

And we do get some questions where there isn't a right answer, but I've still seen good answers posted for different scenarios.

Like, back to Rob's answer, he basically says not to make a big deal out of it unless the client worked closely with the deceased.

In short, it's situational.

RhysW

@jmort253 definitely, a strong point of this site is the amount of people willing to say there isnt any one right answer, but here are the pros and cons of 3 different methods, please pick the most appropriate for you

jmort253

If Bob had 500 clients, those people might be like "Who the heck is bob? My mother in law has alzheimers, who cares!"

Some of that could be clarified in the question.

But again it just comes back to balance. We don't want to write "The Definitive Guide to Deceased Coworkers and Clients™"

RhysW

I like to think we help the answerers as much as we help those with questions

jmort253

But something that doesn't really explore the issue in 2 or 3 paragraphs seems like a borderline waste of space.

RhysW

it can be quite difficult getting people to agree though

jmort253

09:32

I learn a lot from answering questions... makes me do research I might not have otherwise done.

RhysW

because a lot of answers require opinions, people are defensive when they are 'questioned'

Jim G.

@RhysW: Right. Sometimes we get some weak answers on such questions from people who say, "I'm a manager, this is what I've done." It's not enough to simply say, "I'm a manager, this happened to me and I'm telling you about it, therefore I've applied the "Back It Up" principle.

jmort253

There's a difference between opinion and professional opinion.

RhysW

It's been nice chatting, but I best get going, catch you all later!

Jim G.

@jmort253: ^^^ Don't you agree?

jmort253

09:34

@JimG. Yeh, one should be able to show, or demonstrate he/she is an authorative source who can be trusted.

@RhysW - Later

Jim G.

@jmort253: Right. :)

jmort253

Part of what the back it up rule stands for is just to make sure there's enough information and explanation to where a person who comes across our site can reasonably determine that the source and information is credible.

Otherwise, we're just random people on the Internet making statements, at least to the 90% of drive by traffic that a healthy SE site will get...

Jim G.

@jmort253: Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. This emphasis has made this site take off, and has allowed us to distinguish ourselves from Yahoo! Answers.

@jmort253: Anyways. I didn't mean to steal your thunder. I feel strongly about this issue and (as I've said numerous times) I appreciate the way things have been moderated. So thanks again. Keep up the good work. And have a great day!

jmort253

You too. I think it's time for me to call it a night too. ttyl

Jim G.

@jmort253: Cya.

CMW

11:37

what do we do with this gem?

0

Q: Name of desktop job title holder

What is the name of the job title holders seen on people desks in films from the 90s? I'm referring to when you see in films a big shot Director of a company and they often have a triangular shaped prism, and on one side a plaque that says "MANAGING DIRECTOR" or some such, sitting in front of the...

office-layout

RhysW

12:07

@CMW VTC, we dont give product reccomendations or sale advice

CMW

well this looks awesome

RhysW

whats that

CMW

This question appears to be off-topic because it is about the name of a specific type product and about issues navigating the workplace. — CMW 30 mins ago

This question appears to be off-topic because it is about terminology. — Jim G. 16 mins ago

This question appears to be off-topic because it is about purchasing a product — RhysW 4 mins ago

RhysW

I was going to use yours, but your last part confused me

'and about issues navigating the workplace.' <-those things are on topic :P

CMW

there's a 'Not' missing, I just realized

RhysW

12:10

thats what i thought, but made my own just incase

too late to edit it in now aswell

CMW

exactly

I'm going to delete it, to deconfuse the situation

RhysW

yeah, you can always do that, was about to suggest, either that or get a mod to edit it, but no need if there are other things there that are as clear

CMW

yeah, no need to generate extra work

RhysW

12:29

I wonder what this chat room will look like after the new layout takes hold

we saw what the main site will look like but this place changes too usually

Wonder what its like to work for SE

CMW

I wonder, too

RhysW

What do you do cmw? Dev?

CMW

You should take Oded for a drink and ask him :)

RhysW

haha i dont think me and Oded are even in the same country

CMW

Aren't you both in London?

RhysW

12:31

Oh, perhaps he is actually a lot closer than i realise

CMW

I thought I read that somewhere...

:D

RhysW

StackCareers should have an option to integrate with workplace

it shows users input on SO, but being able to add in your experience on WP would also prove your non technical skills id imagine

it does show your rep on wp i guess, but its not that much integration,

CMW

maybe now that we graduate

RhysW

maybe, but i reckon we would need to make a really good case for it

CMW

maybe oded can be our champion :)

About your question: I'm CTO in a startup currently

RhysW

12:35

:D oh cool, what sort of thigns do you do?

Hugo Rocha

Annnnnnnnnnnd here I go, stopping some conversations!

good morning!
:D

CMW

which is actually the role that brought me to WP

RhysW

hey Hugo

Hugo Rocha

now I did on purpose!

:D

CMW

hugo's here. everybody over to the other chatroom quickly

:D

Hugo Rocha

12:36

lol'ed hard

:D

CMW

Hi Hugo! :D

RhysW

@CMW nice to see someone who isn't a dev! Even if you are infact CTO :P

(yes yes ignoring jmac the salesman)

CMW

I actually am still coding, too, because we're only like 4 people in the team

RhysW

haha, thats how startups um, start..up?

how about you @HugoRocha what do you do?

CMW

But I've got sort of a more diverse background, including a little marketing, insurance sales, coaching and stuff

:)

@RhysW true that

RhysW

12:38

I don't have a background, im just dev :P

unless you count my stint of stacking shelves as background

CMW

@RhysW Rightclick on desktop, Settings, Change Background

easy as pie

RhysW

facepalm

is this the kind of CTO advice you give out?

'To check emails, please open outlook'
'Please dont try to get gmail, it will take to many steps to explain to you'

kidding of course :P what sort of products do you uys make then? what does your software do?

CMW

We're building a web service to manage supplier relations

in particular all the exchange of documents, agreements and audits that come with being a company and having suppliers

(which is usually done via fax, email or snail mail - manually mainly)

RhysW

yeah i can see why that would take off, ouch, a lot of paper trail

CMW

Yeah, technical people understand the issue. People responsible for actually doing the work at companies... less so

but we're getting there :)

what are you doing?

RhysW

12:45

maybe because they dont want to understand the issue when their entire job is handling the papers, if its not there then they have no job!

all sorts of dev for all sorts of companies! my experience is hugely varied, though its mostly boiled down to web dev

Hugo Rocha

@RhysW I'm a indie game dev, and currently working full time on a .net and javascript position

RhysW

@HugoRocha oh cool, im sure ive seen your name pop up in gamedev.se chat a few times actually

Hugo Rocha

Never been there

CMW

Oh, we couldn't even go so far as to make them obsolete. There's way to much brain power involved still, in figuring out if some free-form document is 'correct'. We're just making the exchange easier.

Hugo Rocha

lel

RhysW

12:46

really?

must be a similar username then

Hugo Rocha

Also, with @CMW help, I'm helping switching from waterfall to Agile... :)

i mean

RhysW

i made that switch recently

my life became 400% better

Hugo Rocha

from avalanche to agile

:D

RhysW

20billion% easier

Hugo Rocha

20bazillion gunz

RhysW

12:47

so much freedom in the agile model

CMW

:-) happy to help

Hugo Rocha

wow

CMW

That's true

Hugo Rocha

so freedom

much cmw

CMW

such agile

^^

Hugo Rocha

12:47

so agile

RhysW

much dev

Hugo Rocha

behance.net/gallery/Omnium/9325027 this is one of the projects i'm currently working for

but i never finished this behance project... need to include more pics

and description, and our open source libraries that we created for it

:Z

RhysW

i do a bit of blender model design, none of it is exciting though :L

Hugo Rocha

blender is cool; Even if I use maya, I digg it

RhysW

i only picked it up recently

but ive had fun with it

Hugo Rocha

12:50

:D

RhysW

you and cmw should work together, turn file management into an rpg, each employee has to log in to their virtual character and file the files manually still, but in a virtual world instead :D

Had a pizza delivery guy refuse to take a tip the other day, weirdest experience i had that day

first time i had to force someone to take a tip :D

CMW

that's weird

brits.

shakes head

:-)

RhysW

almost as polite as the canadians :P

almost

CMW

^^

Not where I've been :D

RhysW

haha, you went to canada? or the uk? :P

CMW

12:55

UK

London actually. The outskirts somewhere

Hugo Rocha

@RhysW Ummmmmm stahp giving me good ideas; Got too many game ideas already

'-'

CMW

where that computer associates' training center is placed

RhysW

and lots of rude people?

because we have two settings, polite and business :P

if we are working and you aren't related to our job, then you are just using up space! Atleast in london, where space is limited

CMW

Nah, not so much the CA guys. Just the people living there. Didn't seem to like foreigners

RhysW

@HugoRocha i have hundreds of ideas for games (all better than that silly one) if only i had the time, or skills, to make them

oh yeah

dont be a foreigner in london

lots of ridiculously innacurate steroetypes around

Hugo Rocha

12:58

@RhysW I'm already making a septerra core fan project; If I wasn't, I would take you very seriously and do it :P

@RhysW why? :O

RhysW

@HugoRocha id rather you took some of my better ideas then :P

@HugoRocha see above :P

CMW

septerra core? awesome

Hugo Rocha

@CMW Yes, i sent a e-mail to some of the oldies from valkyries, was able to contact one to see if it's cool for them to make one

CMW

I remember having played that at some point

Hugo Rocha

@RhysW Oh... I see :|

CMW

13:51

I love this: "If you treat your employees like mushrooms (keep them in the dark and regularly throw crap on them), it's entirely likely you will get precisely the work you deserve in return."

3

from sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2014/02/…

Hugo Rocha

14:07

Interesting!

RhysW

14:33

@CMW but, but, i like the dark!

CMW

@RhysW And being thrown crap at?

gnat

15:15

this SO question can get really hot, everyone seems to be willing to share their thoughts on the matter, lots of upvotes - stackoverflow.com/questions/21824402/java-multiple-inheritance

CMW

I love how they suggest duck typing

enderland

19:53

wowza lost a lot of rep from deleted users

-2

A: Go for the full time position or internship?

Both full time job and internship has its own advantages, now it's upto you how you are looking at it. If you are serious about your job and want to grow in life, go with full time job. Its good that they will provide training to grow professionally. But if you want to do some extra courses along...

seems that q should be deleted

plus that answer

CMW

@enderland done

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