The Rec Center

Cfinley

00:05

@Adam First off, if we as a community want that tag, I will revert that edit.

To me, that tag is implied in every question. Why would anyone ask for a product that wasn't durable?

I don't like that tag for the same reason I don't like the [comfurt] tag that we had a week ago.

Adam

I see your point, but there are plenty of questions asking specifically for durable laptops.

Durable meaning more durable that the average product.

Cfinley

Like I said, if the community wants that tag, I have no problem with it, for that reason.

I should have asked about it here for in meta first, before moving that tag.

Zizouz212

lol, don't worry about it.

Cfinley

I will move it back and ask on meta.

In other news, I just got the enthusiast badge on both the main site and meta

Adam

Ah yes, 12 UTC.

Zizouz212

00:14

@Adam 0 UTC

Adam

I don't do army time.

Not my thing.

Zizouz212

At least if you do UTC time, then get it right...

Adam

I'll consider switching over.

Cfinley

I have moved the tag back to how it was before.

Zizouz212

@Cfinley sigh

Cfinley

00:17

So we could talk about it first before I make rash decisions.

Zizouz212

You peeps can get mod advice from me as well :)

Cfinley

I hope the mods get announced soon, even if I am not one

Zizouz212

Right now, you guys are doing fine sustaining yourselves. I'm sure they will.

Cfinley

I can help this site even as a normal user

Adam

We've all built this site from the ground up as normal users.

Zizouz212

00:20

@Cfinley Honestly though, I think you would make an excellent mod. You've got the guts for it.

Same for @Adam

Cfinley

Honestly, anybody nominated would make great mods

I do feel like Adam and I work good together

so far anyway...

-.-

Zizouz212

lol

You guys will have a third mod as well :)

Cfinley

DONT NEED EM

Zizouz212

lol

Cfinley

really though, with the amount of traffic that we are currently getting, 3 mods would be overkill

1 could do it

Maybe that is why they are waiting to announce

Adam

00:23

@Cfinley THE B-TEAM

2

Whatever happens, it'll work.

Cfinley

That should be the name of the mod chat room

Adam

Hah make a note of that.

Cfinley

Pinned

Zizouz212

The b-team?

What?

Cfinley

@Zizouz212 Have you heard of the A-Team?

There was a TV show and a movie

Zizouz212

00:27

I've heard of the Double-A team

:P

I'm bugging you :)

Cfinley

ok

Adam

Hey, no trolls allowed. ;)

Zizouz212

You can't do anything to me :)

I've got a blue name for a reason :)

Cfinley

It doesn't appear that we can kick-mute him :(

Adam

I'm hidden behind a screen so I can do whatever I want.

@Zizouz212 Don't make me call Art in here. He's equal to you.

Zizouz212

00:32

@Cfinley I can kick mute both of you, and edit your messages. Don't even try.

Cfinley

Twas only a joke

Its not like I use my powers as a room owner at all

Zizouz212

lol, I know :)

Cfinley

Pinning Adams B-Team comment was the only thing I have done since becoming a room owner

well, besides the quick training people helped me with

Zizouz212

:D

Andy

steps into the room Doth I hear blue names are in need of smiting?

Zizouz212

00:35

leaves quietly

Andy

sniffles I never get to smite anyone. kicks can

Cfinley

I love this place

Zizouz212

This room is haunted by a ghost

Adam

doorknob slowly turns

That gif is way too useful.

Cfinley

00:57

The more I watch it, the creepier it gets

WHOOOOOO!!!

guess who is going to get Google Fiber

Zizouz212

@Cfinley Did that help?

It was giving me creeps too.

Adam

>:(

Cfinley

I didn't say it was a bad thing

Zizouz212

lol sorry. Find another meme in 6 to 8 weeks. :D

Adam

We've gone meta, folks.

Cfinley

01:00

Take joke was funny for about 6 to 8 weeks

Zizouz212

@Adam What?

Adam

That joke makes this conversation meta.

Zizouz212

U peeps are nuts.

Cfinley

You know, we talk about ourselves while talking about ourselves.

We have gone Meta.

Adam

@Cfinley When are you getting it?

Cfinley

01:04

No idea yet. We just qualified.

Construction is going to start Nov 20th, so hopefully not too long after that

Cfinley

03:12

Well, someone is trying to reopen the TEMPEST question and someone else is trying to close enderland's desk question. I have voted for both of them to remain in their current state.

Hardware Recommendations Meta

0

Q: What to do with the [durability] tag?

Currently, the durability tag has 3 questions and on JohnB's answer, it is to be merged or renamed to durable. Personally, I don't like either of these tags. Before I take action against them, I thought I would ask the community for it's opinion. So, what should we do with the [durability] tag?

Adam

@Cfinley You make a good point in your answer there.

I agree with you now.

Undo

03:43

@Cfinley Agree on both counts

@Cfinley You're making me jealous :(

@Cfinley 3 is customary for a couple reasons:

1. It's nice to have a tiebreaker on decisions

2. When someone goes on vacation or dies or whatever, it's not one guy trying to hold down the forst

3. You have a 'majority' for use in the super-rare mod complaint-and-removal-process event

Also, you people are really good at asking all the meta questions while I'm either sleeping or at an event.

Andy

@HardwareRecommendationsMeta Once again, I seem to have a counter argument.

Adam

04:19

@Andy My decision-making process is a tug-o-war match today.

Cfinley

On phone; sorry if formatting isn't the best

@Adam what was it that made you change your mind? Andy agrees with your previous stance.

Adam

I went from favoring the tag, to not favoring the tag, and back again.

Cfinley

@Undo I know why there are 3 moderators. I was just trying to make a joke about how little traffic we get here.

Adam

The three questions he linked to really do make good use of the tag, and I don't see how it would be useless for those cases.

Cfinley

I also don't understand how that meets question got a down vote. It wasn't asking to remove the tag, it was asking what to do with it. I will double check it in the morning to make sure that is the point it is trying to make.

Meets should be meta. Can't edit it on my phone.

I will also add more answers to it in the morning if the community is still undecided what to do.

Alright. Time for bed. See you guys bright and early tomorrow morning!

Adam

04:37

@Cfinley I noticed that downvote as well. Not sure why that's there.

G'night!

Cfinley

14:01

Morning

Andy

That it is :(

Cfinley

14:24

So it seems I was wrong about the [durability] tag. Should we have a [reliable] tag as well?

Andy

Do we have questions where it'd be appropriate right now?

Undo

Shouldn't everything be reliable?

Andy

Depends on how you (generic you) define reliable

Undo

Not everything needs to be durable, but nearly everything ought to be reliable.

Meaning "not have a tendency to break"

And by break, I mean 'not do what it's supposed to do'

Andy

Cheap hardware - I expect it to break relatively quickly.

Undo

14:28

That's something to put in the answer, though

You put in the question that you want something cheap and reliable, then it's the job of the answers to tell you that everything is expensive and unreliable.

Andy

Fair enough. I'll agree with this:

3 mins ago, by Undo

Not everything needs to be durable, but nearly everything ought to be reliable.

Cfinley

Alright. I can agree with this

So last question about this [durability] tag: Should we just rename it to [durable]?

Andy

Meh. I don't care either way

Undo

Yeah, that's bikeshedding. No preference there.

-1

Q: is there mercury in a mouse?

very random question but I bought a cheap mouse from China, a very random question but would there be any liquid mercury or a mercury battery in there by any chance? I also thought just as it was cheap from China it might of used different materials such as mercury than a usual mouse would. (I ...

mouse

Off topic, right?

Andy

14:56

yes

ArtOfCode

16:14

Did we ever sort out the definition of hardware? Is it just computers? Electronics? Digital electronics? Related stuff like desks and monitor stands?

Adam

@Cfinley [durability] and [durable] are the exact same thing.

@ArtOfCode I don't think we really have yet. We're just using questions to figure it out slowly.

ArtOfCode

What do you all think of creating a Big Meta Post, essentially saying "what is hardware?" and the top-voted answer wins?

Cfinley

@ArtOfCode My understanding of hardware on this site is anything that is computer related. Smartphones, smart devices, desks, stands, gel rests, etc are on topic

ArtOfCode

@Cfinley Chuck that in an answer.

Cfinley

Tell me where, and I will do it after my up coming meetings

@Adam For some reason, I do not like the ility part of that tag. [durable] isn't as bad, but I still don't like it

Lesser of two evils if you will

ArtOfCode

16:22

0

Q: What is Hardware?

Not hardware, but Hardware. We've half-defined our scope, thanks to Robert. The other half of defining our scope is an issue that's been sitting around since Day 1, and one that I've seen plenty of opinions on. What is Hardware? I.e. what types of questions do we allow here? Computers? Electro...

discussion scope

Cfinley

Thanks

ArtOfCode

Help decide what our scope is!

2

Adam

@Cfinley Durability is a noun. That's why it's such a strange tag. Durable is an adjective.

I think they still aren't needed though.

Cfinley

Lol. You can't make up your mind about this can you ;)

Sounds like it should go

ArtOfCode

What is it about messages in all-bold that make people so prone to starring them?

Adam

16:25

Yeah I'm being pulled back and forth. Should definitely go though.

ArtOfCode

Don't star this message!

Adam

Aye, aye, cap'n!

ArtOfCode

...my point exactly.

Undo

16:44

@ArtOfCode Thank you so much for asking that

ArtOfCode

@HardwareRecommendationsMeta Too late, Obie.

@Undo No worries

Andy

17:38

I think, at this point, we are reaching meme levels of the "shredder" question

Yay! I get to discuss the shredder...again. It makes a good example question. "can perform more than one task" - The requirements for the shredder were autofeeding. A standard shredder can also sense when there is paper in position to start the shredding. The "more than one task", then would be the "autofeeding" part that is not common and "autostarting" part that is common. Would this piece of office equipment fit in your definition of hardware? — Andy 52 secs ago

I'm just not sure what the meme would be?

"Is this more complicated than a shredder?", perhaps?

Adam

"Are you smarter than a shredder?"

ArtOfCode

Best first meme. Shredders.

Andy

@ArtOfCode, "The durability tag tells us about the ideal product the OP is looking for; it doesn't tell us about what product, or anything about the question itself." Can you elaborate on this?

How does "laptop" tell us anything?

ArtOfCode

@Andy The meme would have to be simply just "Shredder". Anywhere a shredder is referenced.

Adam

Maybe we should volunteer a shredder to be a mod.

Andy

17:48

I'd gladly take a new shredder :)

Oh, wait, you aren't volunteering to give a shredder

YOU CAN'T HAVE MINE!

ArtOfCode

@Andy Tells us they're looking for a laptop. "durability" (or "durable", doesn't matter which) doesn't tell us they're looking for a durable, only that they want something that is durable - which is a pretty common requirement.

A good test is "does this tag enable me to tell if I want to answer this question or not?"

If you like questions about laptops, then having the laptop tag is a good indicator that you could answer.

Andy

@ArtOfCode I disagree. "Durable" is not a common requirement. "Reliability" is, but durable is not.

ArtOfCode

If the question is just tagged durability, you don't know whether it's about laptops or not, which defeats the point of tags - to tell you about the question.

@Andy The two, while not synonymous, are pretty similar. There's a base level of durability expected in any product, really.

Andy

It helps to add a category to the tags. Simply having "Laptop" is too broad, and we have 5 tags to use.

ArtOfCode

But if you don't like that argument, look at my other ^

@Andy The point about meta tags is that they should work as the only tag on a question. If a tag can't, it's likely a meta-tag.

If all it does is add a category, it's meta.

Andy

17:52

It adds a product requirement. The user has identified durability as one of the important requirements.

Undo

We're going to have the strangest memes

2

Shredders and monitor stands.

Adam

@Andy Durability can be stated in the question along with the rest of the requirements though.

Undo

whispers to anyone who will listen They talk to computers now?! Seriously, though, I'm not opposed to having the question be off topic. I agree that a shredder is a fairly simple machine, but it does meet other criteria for being hardware: It's electronic, it's not so simple that it's a basic component, there is a level of automation involved, and somewhat importantly, maintenance on a shredder can't be performed by everyone - it would require some specialized knowledge of the electronic components. — Andy 35 secs ago

... and a certain bravery required to stick your hand in a shredder.

Andy

Lol. Yes.

@Adam So can many other things. On questions about laptops, do we really need a tag for "RAM" then? Especially if the user is asking for a computer that will let grandma surf the internet? I'd argue that, in that context, RAM is a meta-tag. The user is requesting a LAPTOP - ram just happens to be part of it

Undo

Ehhhh

Cfinley

17:59

I have started a tag war. I am so sorry.

Adam

I've actually argued that same thing before.

Undo

I've always thought of meta tags as ones like [expert] and [hard] and [halp-im-gonna-die]

Andy

Red Rover, Red Rover, send @Adam on over :)

Adam

Only the product that is being asked for should be tagged.

Undo

If RAM is a requirement, I don't see a problem with tagging it [ram]

Although will we have experts in RAM? Probably not in that context.

I'm talking myself into thinking it's a meta tag.

Cfinley

18:01

So what about the [pc] and [networking] tags? I would argue that both of them are categories.

Andy

@Undo But if it's not - "I want a new laptop for Grandma", and a user knows a laptop has RAM, so they add the tag, then what do we do?

Undo

I guess we remove it

Cfinley

@Andy I would say remove that tag

Undo

Darn, that's gonna be tough to police

Andy

Yes it is

Undo

18:02

But if I want a crazy high end computer, and I know I want nine hundred GB of Super Duper FooBar RAM, does it count?

Andy

So, if Ram is a requirement then - Grandma is a gamer and can kick all your asses - we keep it?

Adam

I really think this comes down to how important the tag is to the question.

Undo

I guess?

@Adam Yeah

But good grief, how do we define that?

Andy

So, we keep ram in context, why not keep durability in context? It's important to the user. It is one of their main requirements for a product

Adam

So tagging [ram] should only be when you need a laptop with 32GB in it or something.

Cfinley

18:03

Or when actually buying ram as an upgrade

Adam

[durability] is only used when you need something to last forever.

That too.

Andy

@Adam When RAM is an important requirement in the product. Laptop vs. Laptop that can handle Grandmas gaming addiction are two different products

potentially

Undo

We're overthinking this

It can't be this complicated

Adam

Exactly. So if it's a big part of what recommendation will be given, it's okay to include the tag.

Andy

Yay!

Undo

18:05

Sounds good to me

Andy

> When durability is an important part of the question, it deserves a tag.

Undo

I'm still surprised at the relative lack of CM involvement here

I would have thought they'd be more worried about us not knowing what hardware is

Adam

Is someone going to include this in an answer or should we create a new question asking about when to use tags in general?

Undo

@Adam Probably ought to be a separate question

Adam

@Undo I thought that too.

Undo

18:10

also, we're starting week 5 without our own mods :(

Andy

@Adam The line I quoted above is in my answer already

Andy

18:22

However, a new answer summarizing the discussion here is a good idea. It's easier to point to Meta than to chat

Cfinley

I almost think we should restructure Arts hardware question where each answer is something that we could ask about and vote on them separately. Anything above a certain number number of points is in, everything else is out.

Things that are reasonable, not things like boat engines

It would be great for the bigger things (laptops, mice, other clearly ontopic items), but a pain for smaller items (cables, desks, and other gray area things).

Andy

That seems confusing. I think a single CW answer is easier to refer to in the future than a post with 10s of answers and we say "Anything above X score is valid".

Cfinley

I agree.

It wasn't meant to be a solution to the problem, more of a tool to help us figure out our scope. I realize I didn't word it like that.

Cfinley

19:08

0

A: What is Hardware?

I agree with @Undo's answer, but want to add a bit more to the on-topic section. I think things related to hardware should also be on-topic, as long as it was specifically designed to be used with hardware. Things like monitor stands, mouse pads, smartphone cases, styluses, laptop bags, etc. Obvi...

Hardware Recommendations Meta

19:19

0

Q: Do we want to make "FAQ threads"?

Over the time we will have more and more questions like "What is the best choice in price range x to y" etc... I am thinking of making this mainly for PC sets/laptops. Do we want to create a big thread with community wiki answers? We could point this out to the new users rather than marking t...

discussion

Adam

19:51

11

Q: Advanced KVM operation?

I have a rather advanced use-case that I need a KVM-type device for, and I was wondering whether such a thing even existed. I want a 3-PC setup; 2 desktops (PC1 and PC2) and 1 laptop dock (DOCK1). I want to connect 2 monitors, 1 mouse, and 1 keyboard. So far it's relatively straightforward, as...

mouse keyboards video kvm multiple-monitors

This question is a good example of the tag problem we were discussing.

The hardware needed is a KVM switch, but are [mouse], [keyboards], and [video] really a focus as well?

Andy

mouse and keyboard - no. Video, I could probably argue it's related but not nearly as important as KVM and multiple-monitors

Firepower0701

So we aren't accepting keyboard and mice as hardware?

Nvm I'm dumb

Undo

@Firepower0701 We're talking about tags

:)

Firepower0701

I realised as soon as I pressed enter

Andy

Everyone play nice. I'll be back later. It's time to go home and rake leaves (sigh).

belford

19:59

GL & Have fun.

Undo

@Andy Ooooh fun

Adam

@Andy Don't forget the flamethrower.

belford

@Adam, probably we can remove [mouse] and [keyboards] in this post. There are not significant for this question.

Adam

I'm going to edit out the [mouse] and [keyboards] tags in that question. Hopefully no one riots.

Cfinley

begins to riot

belford

20:07

I'd like to encourage you to vote more (especially for our new users ;)). Check hardwarerecs.stackexchange.com/users?tab=Voters&filter=all - only 19 of us have more than 30 votes.

and think about "62
questions with no upvoted or accepted answers"

Undo

@belford That's another problem, people don't know when to accept answers

Cfinley

What I have been doing is accepting answers that I plan to buy the recommendation. I may not buy them now, but I will.

belford

Yes, I know that they often accept very early or never...

Adam

I've also been accepting when I'm sure the recommendation is the one I'll buy sometime later on.

Cfinley

20:39

@Adam Do you have a problem with the mouse pad, monitor stand, being on topic as well, or is it just the phone case and bag?

Adam

21:12

@Cfinley Phone case, laptop bag, and mouse pad seem off topic to me.

Firepower0701

I normally accept a recommendation once there are a few recs, or once one completely suits my needs. That goes for other sites, as well

Maybe Im part of the problem. I dunno.

Adam

That's reasonable. Nothing wrong with it.

Firepower0701

21:34

This may be a stretch, but would recommendations on things like screwdrivers be allowed?

Adam

I'm willing to bet on a unanimous "no" from the community on that one.

Undo

"No"

Firepower0701

What about materials on things like custom cases, or tools for case modding? Would that be allowed?

Adam

Materials?

That's a big stretch.

Undo

Yeah, no

Adam

21:37

That's DIY kinda stuff.

Undo

I do think that 'electronic' should be a filter in our scope

Or 'primarily designed for electronic stuff', which screwdrivers aren't

Firepower0701

Ok. I just am getting the feeling that such questions will be asked

@Undo what about "Electric" screwdrivers

Adam

@Undo So you want to restrict monitor stands, mouse pads, and all that?

Undo

@Adam Not if we go the 'primarily designed for electronic stuff' route, which I hope we do

@Firepower0701 I'd still say no.

Adam

Seconded.

Firepower0701

21:39

Thirded

Has anyone won the election yet?

Undo

@Firepower0701 For PT mods?

enderland

It's more like an appointment @Firepower0701

Undo

It's not an election

Adam

The big part of the scope is "electric" and "involved in computing."

Firepower0701

@Undo you know what I meant

Undo

21:40

A CM will go through it eventually and choose a few people

Adam

Eventually...

Undo

Not necessarily based on the score of their nomination, either

ArtOfCode

Could be based on any other factors they think appropriate. Evening, all.

Adam

Evening @ArtOfCode.

Cfinley

22:55

@Adam I only posted those as they fit my description of "as long as it was specifically designed to be used with hardware" part of my answer, which they are.

I do agree that they are a stretch, but I can see questions coming up about them.

like "I need a light weight bag to hold my 15" laptop that has a hard exterior for travel, but also can hold my charger and mouse."

Adam

That would work, but simple questions such as "I need a bag for my 15" laptop" wouldn't.

So if we were to allow that kind of thing, we'd have to restrict it to very specific questions.

Cfinley

I agree

But that also applies to the whole of this site

Adam

That's true

Cfinley

"I need 8GB Ram. What do you recommend" also doesn't fit

Trying to use my "magical arguing abilities" while having too much to drink may not be a good thing...

Adam

Tipsy on the job, are we?

Cfinley

23:05

They had an "Appreciation" for the developers today that I just got back from

How do you say no to that?

Adam

break;

At least they appreciate you.

Cfinley

I agree. I will be on again later tonight if you want to talk about this.

Adam

Sounds good. We'll all need to buff this out soon enough.

Cfinley

Sorry to bug you

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