Universe Software

ArtOfCode

20:00

@Zizouz212 You're mixing patents and trademarks

Zizouz212

I am?

bilbo_pingouin

I also thing so

ArtOfCode

Hang on, lemme read the license

Zizouz212

Uhhh, no!

bilbo_pingouin

there aren't any TM on a code

Zizouz212

20:00

choosealicense.com/licenses/apache-2.0

Vincent

@ArtOfCode My skills in computer language is low. I did some HTML and Java some time ago. 1+1, print result ... things like that.

Zizouz212

@Vincent No worries, I'm taking care of all that :)

@bilbo_pingouin If there's any scripts to calculate things, you're doing it (and in Python :) )

ArtOfCode

Oh fair enough, Apache does indeed disallow trademark use

Vincent

Software developer that don't need to code. Where can I apply?

Zizouz212

Here!

bilbo_pingouin

20:02

@Zizouz212 sure

Zizouz212

I've got experience in Jython, so integrating it will be easy :)

bilbo_pingouin

@Vincent well HDE was also interested in doing the maths...

but some graphics could be useful

and of course testing

Zizouz212

@@ -_-

bilbo_pingouin

and just discussions

Vincent

@bilbo_pingouin I could do graphics

bilbo_pingouin

20:03

I understand that @Zizouz212 will do the GUI

Zizouz212

Now I'm just going to warn you guys, my java is very... unique

@bilbo_pingouin Damn right I am! :P

ArtOfCode

OK, making a legal entity to hold the copyright is either hard, or costs.

bilbo_pingouin

but I don't know if you're good with design?

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 And I'll warn you, I'm a stickler on code standards... You write, I'll clean :)

bilbo_pingouin

maybe @Vincent could help there

Zizouz212

20:04

@bilbo_pingouin Ah, I just split everything and subclass everything. Oh, and if you don't document, I kill you!

bilbo_pingouin

code is documentation, isn't it? :D

Zizouz212

Like in the Wiki

bilbo_pingouin

do we want a full doxygen thing

?

Zizouz212

@bilbo_pingouin ?

ArtOfCode

← 153 messages moved from Universe Factory

bilbo_pingouin

20:06

doxygen ?

you don't know doxygen, and you threaten me about documentation ? :D

Zizouz212

Oh god

Oh

C++ ew

ArtOfCode

Also a warning: I can write Java, but slowly because I don't know any of the APIs.

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode I know utils, awt, swing, io...

bilbo_pingouin

same here

Zizouz212

Oh, lang!

:P

ArtOfCode

20:08

Heh, lang is usually pretty important

Zizouz212

Like java.lang.Object :P

ArtOfCode

The base class.

bilbo_pingouin

anyway, you want to make the GUI in Java... calling python scripts?

ArtOfCode

Oh god xD

bilbo_pingouin

or do we stick to java

ArtOfCode

20:09

I'd just have Java classes

Zizouz212

@bilbo_pingouin The GUI will be pure java, but if there's scripts, then I don't like java

@ArtOfCode Most of the scripts in my java apps are really python. I wonder how I got away with that in school...

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Do it OOP style, not scripted

bilbo_pingouin

I mean we need to implement some fractals, and some other similar things, so there will be calculations

ArtOfCode

Have objects (Java classes) that do the calculations and stuff

Design patterns, man!

bowlturner

@ArtOfCode just got the query. Not really sure what's going on here

Zizouz212

20:11

If they are simple, please please please Python. Java is ugly for stuff other than things like gui

ArtOfCode

@bowlturner Software development :)

@Zizouz212 C#'s better ;) But anyway, we'll just have to see how it goes.

If you write your GUI, and provide some API hooks for us to call from the models, then we can update the views from there

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode Sure, no problem :)

ArtOfCode

MVC is a good design pattern.

Zizouz212

MVC?

ArtOfCode

Model-View-Controller

bowlturner

20:13

@ArtOfCode what is being developed? BTW I'm best at C#

Zizouz212

You peeps, make things difficult :/

bilbo_pingouin

in Worldbuilders' General Chat, 6 hours ago, by bilbo_pingouin

I had an idea in coordination with the blog, and seeing the series of "creating a realistic world map" questions... since, AFAIK, most of us have some SW dev skills... developping a software to implement the answers... techtonic, fractals for coastline, etc...?

@bowlturner ^

ArtOfCode

You have Models, which contain all the actual logic, Views, which display things, and Controllers, which bind the two together.

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode Your repo is a dead link

ArtOfCode

Hmm. OK, hang about

@Zizouz212 'S cos I deleted it. Link's on the right -->

Zizouz212

20:14

-_-

At least cancel the stars...

ArtOfCode

There's an alternative here.

@bilbo_pingouin You said you were thinking of doing some Python?

bilbo_pingouin

@Zizouz212 said that if something were to be calculated I'd have to do it in python

I can, and I like python more than Java

ArtOfCode

@bilbo_pingouin Aye. You can do Python? Good.

@Zizouz212 can also do Python.

Zizouz212

If you've got an object, it's ridiculously simple to port it into java

bilbo_pingouin

but we we'd rather stick to java, that's also fine by me

Zizouz212

20:17

5-6 lines to call the script and to get the object

ArtOfCode

My thought: if we hire @bowlturner, we can do the GUI in WPF using C#, and use Python scripts

Zizouz212

@bowlturner You good with GUIs?

bilbo_pingouin

yeah, but it would be a pain for me to run it...

ArtOfCode

@bilbo_pingouin Ah. More of a problem.

Of course, that's why we decided Java in the first place isn't it. OK, do ignore me :)

@Zizouz212 Java is back on

bilbo_pingouin

well, I'll have to check

Zizouz212

20:19

Um, ok :)

ArtOfCode

It would come out as an exe

bilbo_pingouin

maybe there are some VM-.Net-like that run on linux

Zizouz212

I've got osx

ArtOfCode

@bilbo_pingouin Ziz tells me there's a 'wine' that does this

Zizouz212

Ah, Wine

Not the best for large applications, but it does the job remarkably well in most cases

Wine: wiki.winehq.org/FrontPage

bilbo_pingouin

20:20

yeah wine exists, but it is awfully slow and does not always work

I got a compiler/simulator to run on wine not long ago though, was ok

otherwise there is mono

but I need to read more about it.

ArtOfCode

OK, let's just go Java.

It sounds far easier than messing around trying to get support, when we already have support for Java on all our machines

bilbo_pingouin

with Java we would be more portable

ArtOfCode

And that.

bowlturner

@Zizouz212 I'm not bad and I've had a bit of WPF exP

Zizouz212

Alright, you guys seriously need to stop using short forms, unless i know them!

bilbo_pingouin

20:22

it does not matter if we're slower... it's supposed to be a fun project, isn't it?

ArtOfCode

@bilbo_pingouin The man speaks the truth.

bilbo_pingouin

@Zizouz212 that's a C# thingy

Green

I'm not much of a developer, testing is more my thing. I'm happy to contribute test cases to the cause.

ArtOfCode

OK, my point of view: If we can get support for running exes on bilbo_pingouin's setup, then I'd much prefer to do it with C#.

Zizouz212

Ah, C#, don't know anything C (although I'm planning on learning C or C++)

ArtOfCode

20:23

@Green Any help is helpful

bilbo_pingouin

Welcomd to the discussion, Green.

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 C# is basically Java, just API differences

Green

thanks :)

ArtOfCode

C/C++ are the odd ones

Zizouz212

But what's the difference between C/C++ I've never really understood it

Green

20:24

what was the github link again?

ArtOfCode

@Green On the right -->

bilbo_pingouin

between C and C++ ?

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Nor me :)

bilbo_pingouin

there are quite a few

ArtOfCode

I imagine much like the differences between Java and C#: minimal

...I stand corrected.

bilbo_pingouin

20:25

no, well C++ is pretty much like Java, C#... OOP and all

Green

Basically, C++ is C with object oriented stuff built in.

bilbo_pingouin

but C isn't.

Zizouz212

Ah

bowlturner

Sorry @Zizouz212 I was answering 2 questions from two people, and didn't notice

Green

Java/C# are C++ without the ugly memory management issues (and a runtime to do garbage collection and bunch of other stuff.)

Any one have Erlang experience?

I'm curious about it.

ArtOfCode

20:26

@Green Nope.

bilbo_pingouin

I would present it differently, but yes what Green said

neither do I

ArtOfCode

Can I just throw another tangential issue in for a moment?

Copyright.

Zizouz212

Ooooooohhh

Green

Specifically what about copyright?

Zizouz212

Copywrite!

ArtOfCode

20:27

How do we deal with it? We can keep our copyrights, but what about when we get contributions?

@Zizouz212 Is a completely different thing!

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode We make it clear, that contributions fall under the ownership of the organization

Simple?

Green

How do larger projects handle it? This feels like a problem that's been solved before.

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Universe Factory isn't a legal entity that can hold copyright.

Zizouz212

Why not?

ArtOfCode

I'm in the process of writing a legal file that says "Universe Factory" refers to the owners of the Universe Factory GH org.

@Zizouz212 Because we haven't made it one

Zizouz212

20:29

@ArtOfCode Then let's do that :)

ArtOfCode

The important points are:

@Zizouz212 Either difficult, or costs money.

I've checked that one.

The important points are:

bilbo_pingouin

how do the others do that?

ArtOfCode

(1) Do we keep out copyrights, or do we assign them to one person between us?

Zizouz212

Or maybe, have each person responsible for a sector in the project, and contributions are their copyright?

ArtOfCode

(2) When receiving contributions, do we let them keep their copyrights, or do we ask them to assign to us?

@Zizouz212 Possibly, yes

Zizouz212

20:31

I think that would make it simple.

Or for each pull request, they must raise an issue, and whoever is assigned the issue gains the copyright?

Green

@ArtOfCode What's the downside if we let everyone keep their copyrights to themselves and demand an acceptable license?

Like if it's GPL-2 or something?

ArtOfCode

@Green There are arguments for and against. Lemme find something

8

Q: What is the difference between a CLA and a CTA?

I've seen that some projects require a Contributor License Agreement (CLA) and some require a Copyright Transfer Agreement (CTA). Some examples of places using a CLA: Django Google jQuery Some examples of places using a CTA: Oracle Cisco What is the difference between these two agreement...

contributor-agreements

Zizouz212

Ah, Open Source SE shall be our best friend!

ArtOfCode

Frankly, I'd go for a CLA

They license their contributions to us

Green

@ArtOfCode "CTA's are also used to ensure that the final product is single-copyright, instead of having multiple copyrights across the codebase." Is having multiple copyrights in the product going to be a problem for us?

ArtOfCode

20:34

they get to keep their copyright

Green

If not, then I say we go with the CLA.

ArtOfCode

@Green It's legally messy, but it's probably not a problem.

Seems I'm our legal man xD

Green

Are we ever going to charge money for this project or is going to stay a free beer open source project forever?

ArtOfCode

@Green If it's open source, selling it is unlikely to make us money. People can copy the source code for free, compile it themselves, and distribute elsewhere for free

The trick with making money on these things is to sell peripherals.

8

A: How is selling FLOSS packages for monetary compensation a viable strategy?

You are correct, selling FOSS packages for money is generally a bad idea: someone else will come along, promoting their free distribution, and take all your customers away. This is not a very viable business strategy. However, what you can do is sell peripherals: little extra bits that nobody el...

Green

@ArtOfCode or sell support (not that I ever ever ever want back into a support role again. Calls at 3am are not my favorite.)

bilbo_pingouin

20:36

I'd go for CLA

ArtOfCode

@Green Solution: don't answer them :)

OK, I'll get us a CLA and commit that before any code.

And the Apache license.

Green

@ArtOfCode and that rapidly leads to not getting any alls.

calls*

Zizouz212

@Green I wouldn't mind handling support. I think the biggest thing will be to just document things in the wiki

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Yep. And make it easy for people to use :)

Zizouz212

@ArtOfCode So I can also take charge in the wiki (which will work out since I'm running the GUI as well)

ArtOfCode

20:39

@Zizouz212 Yup.

bilbo_pingouin

fair enough

Zizouz212

It's rough right now, but we can make it pretty once we actually start developing the project

Green

@ArtOfCode, my github user is: github.com/51stpage

ArtOfCode

@Green Invitation sent

Green

I'll accept when I get home.

Zizouz212

20:44

Can I make a logo for the organization?

Green

Has anyone started working on a vision or requirements for this project?

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 If you like

@Green Nope :)

Green

So what are we actually making? (It's hilarious to me that we are building up all the infrastructure to build something but don't know what we're building yet. :) )

What do we want "Universe Factory" to mean?

@ArtOfCode, you take care of the legal, I'll take care of automated builds (if appropriate), requirements and QA.

Someone else write the code, I'll break it for you.

ArtOfCode

@Green Heh, always a good job.

Green

And holy hell, if we don't have an automated build and test setup, there will be something very wrong.

Anyone object to Travis-CI?

Zizouz212

20:47

lol

@Green My code isn't normally breakable...

Green

@Zizouz212 Big words.... :)

bilbo_pingouin

@Green never heard of it ^^"

Green

It's like Jenkins, only in the cloud so you don't have to futz with server configs or software updates. For each build, it generates a fresh Docker container of your choosing then builds and tests your code. It can also do artifact uploads if desired.

ArtOfCode

@Green No objections

Green

It's free for open source projects (who don't do a build every five minutes though that won't be a problem for us.)

bilbo_pingouin

20:49

tonight's a bit late for that, but tomorrow, I'll try to put up some points about how I view the whole thing

Green

@bilbo_pingouin

bilbo_pingouin

what we could implement and so on

Zizouz212

Jenkins?

Green

sounds good to me.

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Yes?

Zizouz212

20:50

@bilbo_pingouin It's only 5pm!!

@ArtOfCode Wat's dat?

ArtOfCode

@Zizouz212 Me.

@Zizouz212 For you...

Zizouz212

ugh

ArtOfCode

It's 21:50 here, and 22:50 in Europe.

bilbo_pingouin

it's 22:46

Green

@Zizouz212, Jenkins is automated build server.

bilbo_pingouin

20:51

and I wake up at 6:00

Green

It's 16:51

Zizouz212

Haha European folks!

That's why you live in Toronto!

Green

Toronto's a nice place. Been there a few times.

Zizouz212

Where bouts are you?

Green

Boston.

Zizouz212

20:52

Ooh

ArtOfCode

Legal files added to the repo

Zizouz212

> Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about sagacious-octo-fibula.

Memorable name, huh?

ArtOfCode

Yep

Green

What language are we going to implement this in?

C#?

Zizouz212

Java + Python

bilbo_pingouin

20:57

Java

ArtOfCode

@Green Java, mixed with Python

I would like to use C# because it's superior to everything, but it's a pain for bilbo to run on Linux

bilbo_pingouin

so much for superior to everything ;)

ArtOfCode

@bilbo_pingouin Ssshhhhh nobody noticed that

Green

Java is my best language so that works well for me.

bilbo_pingouin

how about we make it fully in python?

Zizouz212

20:58

@ArtOfCode I believe you mean superior?

ArtOfCode

@bilbo_pingouin oh god

bilbo_pingouin

there are qt and gtk libs for python

Zizouz212

xD

bilbo_pingouin

:D

ArtOfCode

@bilbo_pingouin I'm good, on that score... we can do Java :)

Zizouz212

20:59

@bilbo_pingouin I support you!

bilbo_pingouin

python's much more fun...

even the name's fun ;)

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