/dev/chat - 2018-07-20

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12:21 AM

@Jesse_b "I had a problem, so I tried to solve it with regular expressions. Now I have two problems."

3

7 hours later…

7:23 AM

@Kusalananda Thank you for your opinion. I agree that the mistake is not a simple typo. But I think it is completely clear what the author’s intention was and what exactly the mistake is. The solution was straightforward. I think different ways would be awkward and obscure. I explained the mistake and the solution in a comment a day before the edit. I also checked that the author was online.

@Kusalananda The current comment has a new date because the misunderstanding of Jesse_b (why do you run a subshell) convinced me that the old comment was not clear so I extended it.

3 hours later…

Bhathiya Perera

10:30 AM

hello

@BhathiyaPerera Hi there.

Bhathiya Perera

I've posted unix.stackexchange.com/questions/457408/…

Will add a proper sample in a minute :)

FYI ^^

@BhathiyaPerera Ah, yes I saw that one.

Generally, executing output from another program is a bit dangerous.

You would probably want to verify that the string on the last line is actually a source command before executing it.

And since the script is interactive, I don't know if you (esaily) can get away with not writing to a temporary file.

@StephenKitt https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/457381/fastest-lightweight-os-available/457383#comment831100_457381
You killed me

@JeffSchaller regex are fun Love to build them, I remember once having done some parxing concatenating regex. My poor colleagues that didn't know regex were a bit lost :D

Eagerly anticipating a thunderstorm that is supposed to show up within an hour or so...

10:41 AM

@Kusalananda should happen here too :D Is the weather still very hot where you leave ?

@Kiwy Yes. Now +32 indoors, and about +30 outdoors.

@Kusalananda OMG, 32 indoors that's unbearable

Yes.

I bet you're waiting for the storm

Muchly

I'm looking at lightningmaps.org and I can see lightning happening 20km north of where I live, but it doesn't seem to move.

10:44 AM

how do they procduce those maps ?

Magic

@Kiwy Aren't you French? I can understand the Scandinavian freaking out over that kind of temperature, but you guys have regular summers!

You're from the North, I take it?

@terdon indoor 32° is something happening like a week a year and that is unbearable. I can accept up to 27° 28° indoor but above this I start to suffocate in my own sweat while sleeping

I leave in Lyon like Stephen

Huh. I wouldn't have thought Lyon was that cold. OK.

32° outside when there's little wind is fine though

10:47 AM

Oh, sure

No, >30 inside with humidity isn't fun. I'm just pulling the Viking's leg.

Well temperature often rise above 30 in the summer but usually goes down at night which makes it OK

I foresee a worldwide rise in the sale of air-conditioners.

We couldn't function without them here. At least, I couldn't.

@FaheemMitha time to invest in stock market :D

I remember 2 or 3 years ago several power outage during a very hot week that's the problem with those amazing little air conditionners

@terdon Humidity here is currently at 35% indoors. I have a dehumidifier that I turn on at 40%.

@Kusalananda That's not too bad.

10:51 AM

At winter I have humidifier :-) The humidity otherwise drops down to around 20% and thats painful.

ouch

@Kusalananda no need for a humidifier just take a hot bath :D

The A/C units are sold out, so I can't get one for this year. I might invest in one for next year though.

@Kiwy I ain't got no bathtub, just a shower, but that works too.

@Kusalananda I have one to sell, should I send it to you by airplane ?

I never use it like a week by year I though I would use it more but I'm an ecologist I feel guilty every time i turn it on

@Kiwy :-) No. We'll be fine with regular showers and drinking lots of water.

10:56 AM

your call, i have a bath tub I prefer it over air conditionner and heater

time for lunch

see you

@Kiwy Air conditioner stocks?

@FaheemMitha yes, stock in companies which manufacture air conditioners

BTW re your question about open source etc., this is relevant

The connection between #freesoftware, #debian and #opensource explained by @BrucePerens at #oscon.

Tweeted by OpenSourceOrg on July 18, 2018 at 8:53 PM

11:16 AM

Hi Everyone. I'm working on Solaris. I need to touch a file with the "now" time due to https://nlnetlabs.nl/bugs-script/show_bug.cgi?id=4131.

I need the output like 197001010000. When I use $(date +"%cc%vv%mm%dd%HH%MM%SS") I get an error "invalid date format". WHat is the format specifier used on Solaris?

@jww Doesn't man date tell you?

And that isn't a valid date format anywhere, is it? Why are you using everything doubled like that?

@jww shouldn’t the year part be %cc%yy?

@StephenKitt Is it doubled like that on solaris?

@terdon I don’t know

actually I do

docs.oracle.com/cd/E26505_01/html/816-5165/…

says yes

actually no I’m misreading that

@jww doesn’t date "+%Y%m%d%H%M%S" work?

docs.oracle.com/cd/E26505_01/html/816-5168/…

suggests it should

@FaheemMitha Yes of course

11:49 AM

@terdon - man date tells me to go to time(3c). time(3c) does not discuss the format specifiers in detail. It just mentions C locales. Going back to man date I did not see a 2-digit month. I assumed I was doing something obviously wrong.

@StephenKitt Regarding unix.stackexchange.com/questions/457423, would you happen to know if file fragmentation plays into this number? A small file may occupy two blocks even though it's smaller than the block size. My feeling is that it does nat take this into account.

@Kusalananda I haven’t checked, but I imagine ls only reports what stat tells it, and that gets everything right

@terdon - regarding the invalid date and the double characters... that is what man date told me to use. See pastebin.com/GJKBuYzc . It is from the man page.

@jww the double characters are references to the synopsis, where they’re used to specify the date, not the format

/me gets the feeling he’s being ignored :-/

@jww You probably want man strftime. The Solaris date manual also refers to that manual in its "SEE ALSO" section.

11:54 AM

@Kusalananda see my link above

@StephenKitt Too many topics. What link? Sorry.

Ah, the docs.oracle one.

docs.oracle.com/cd/E26505_01/html/816-5165/… links to docs.oracle.com/cd/E26505_01/html/816-5168/… which gives the format specifiers

but I get the impression jww’s not seeing anything I’m posting

@StephenKitt Well, that would be odd.

@jww What do the examples show?

It's a shame @StephenKitt isn't here. He'd probably be able to help.

:P

12:12 PM

Phew... Thunderstorm almost here. Temperature dropped by 0.5 degrees to +31.5. It feels soooo nice!

@Kusalananda that's purely psycologic you know, human are not that sensible :P

That is a very true statement. Although I think you meant to say sensitive.

(those two words are a real pain in so many languages; English is weird in this one)

Sensitive: being able to sense things / allowing things to bother or affect you.
Sensible: reasonable, rational.

@terdon true sensitive is the good word to use in this case.

It took me ages to get used to saying sensible instead of "sensitible" or something in French and Spanish.

@Kiwy No, I can definitely feel the difference. I also stopped sweating.

12:17 PM

@terdon well I can imagine when you speak so many language they mixed up pretty easily. I already mix some french and english from time to time

It's words like those, the ones that exist in both languages but mean different things, that really get you.

@Kusalananda well I'm sure you feel the difference but that's probably more the sensible temperature more than the actual temperature. I don't know what's the name for perceived temperature in english, but I know you can have 25° and feeling very hot while having 30° and feeling almost cold

Like the difference between éventuellement (possibly) and eventually (certainly, but in the future)

wind / humidity / pressure influencing our perception of the temperature vs a thermostat which is impartial

@terdon OH there's a difference in eventually ? I though eventually meant éventuellement :D

it actually took me ages to use actually the correct way I didn't know about that one

@terdon and then there’s all the words that native speakers tend to use incorrectly

like “momentarily”

or “comprised of” (a pet peeve of mine)

12:22 PM

@Kiwy Nope. I thought so too. And it's the same thing in Spanish as well. In English, eventually means it will happen for sure, but in the future.

@StephenKitt What's wrong with that?

@StephenKitt momentarily has what meaning ?

"For a short of time" but it is used to mean "In a short time"

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/momentarily

@terdon it tends to be used in contexts where it should be “comprises”

I do not know if this dictionnary is correct, but it gives both

12:24 PM

The classic example is I'll be with you momentarily, to which the pedants like myself would respond shame, I thought you could stay a while.

for example, “a computer is comprised of a motherboard, a hard drive etc.”

@Kiwy Yes, the usage has changed. But curmudgeonly prescriptivists like Stephen here object to it. :P

@StephenKitt Ah. That's different, yes. But a group is comprised of the elements belonging to it is fine.

I thought you were objecting to comprised of on general principles or something.

But it's more a conjugating issue that's a bit different

@terdon see I’d say that’s wrong too, it should be “a group is constituted of the elements belonging to it”

@terdon "curmudgeonly prescriptivists" took me to 5 other pages of the dictionary to understand what you meant (though I had an idea about the general idea) :D

12:27 PM

@StephenKitt I don't see why.

@Kiwy :P

@terdon that’s the curmudgeon point of view; see en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/comprise

Even M-W has The play is comprised of three acts. as an example.

@terdon I'm not even sure I know such word in french

Which one?

@terdon yeah but we’ve just seen above that M-W tends to reflect modern usage even when it annoys curmudgeons

12:29 PM

Well yes. So does any decent dictionary, I'm afraid.

@terdon indeed, language being a living thing and all that

But I'm surprised the OD didn't mention that. I wonder if it's a which-side-of-the-pond issue.

Comprised of is an expression in English: X "is comprised of" Y means that X is composed or made up of Y. While its use is common in writing and speech, it has been disparaged by some language professionals and style guides as an inappropriate substitution for comprises. The Oxford English Dictionary regards the construction "comprised of" as incorrect, while Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary and Collins English Dictionary do not regard it as such, mentioning "comprised of" among the examples. == Use == "Comprised of", with what is by far its most common meaning today, has occurred since...

https://unix.stackexchange.com/q/457437/53092
So complicated way to echo stuff....

I wonder if that claim about the OED is true. I doubt it. OD != OED.

@terdon they’re mostly edited by the same people

actually that’s not accurate

Oxford Dictionaries edits the Oxford English Dictionary

12:33 PM

Yes, the OED is edited by a pretty weird bunch, actually. There's a whole book about them which I've never read.

Well we could debate of modern usage of language and its slid but what is the reference for correct usage then ? the dictionary from 1960 1860 1760 ?

Note that I certainly do find comprises of or comprise of wrong. Just not comprised of.

@Kiwy For English, the reference is the latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. Which you cannot find online (free).

For english we should use Donald Trump twitter account as a reference that could be a lot of fun

Ugh

@Kusalananda grep return true or false ? how ?

12:46 PM

$ grep PATH .profile && echo 'Yes, PATH was there'
PATH=$HOME/bin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/games
export PATH HOME TERM
Yes, PATH was there

$ grep BLARG .profile || echo 'No, BLARG was not there'
No, BLARG was not there

hum I'll die less ignorant... and that will help me on some work sometime

@Kusalananda Thank you

You usually use grep -q with that.

grep -q foo file && echo FOUND || echo NOT FOUND

1:12 PM

@StephenKitt see chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/45754128#45754128 and the next few messages.

@terdon ah right, thanks

and that also gives a clue as to why I dislike "comprised of"

because in my mind "comprises" should always be used in the active sense

like the French "comprend"

@JeffSchaller I was actually able to do it without using regex. It's a four field string and only the second field will ever contain the delimiter. So I just pull the first field and then use parameter expansion to remove that from the original string, then trim the last field twice leaving me with only the second field

@StephenKitt Ah, which brings us full circle to the start of the conversation! :)

@terdon indeed

o/

1:26 PM

\o

\o/
 |
/\

@JeffSchaller looks like a job for Eregex master aka me :D but good you find a solution

@terdon @StephenKitt I have reinstall Antidote (a great english and french dictionnary/corrector not a translator) should I select american english/english/oxford english/canadian englsh :D I'm now doubting after our little conversation

@Kiwy Canadian English, eh?

@Jesse_b “aboot”

@Kiwy depends who you interact with most I guess

@Kiwy Whichever you like. The only thing that matters is picking one and sticking to it. All are "correct", just don't mix styles from different ones.

1:30 PM

nowaday I would say Europeans :D

That corrector once insult me with something like:
The form `shall we`constitute a britanism I found the formulation absolutely lovely

by the way this software is expensive but IMHO a very instructive an nice tool to correct both english and french with so many different tool, if you're seeking such tool I couldn't recommand that one enough

@Kiwy Yes, the Brits use shall more than Americans. But it is perfectly understood on either side of the Atlantic. I wouldn't call it wrong anywhere.

You have weirder ones like the word homely. In the UK, that means "pleasant, home-like" while in the US it means "ugly".

I only found out about this last week! I was watching TV here in England and they kept using homely with a positive connotation and I had to look the word up. I had no idea the Brits used it that way.

@Funkydiddykong you're Australian, right? So claims your profile. What does homely mean there? I guess the British meaning?

I have never heard someone actually say homely

@terdon :D this can happen from time to time but I never found major difference between brit English and American English

Gah, I wish I could remove my windows for some extra space sometimes

@Funkydiddykong Why don't you?

1:39 PM

1. Nvidia optimus on both my workstation laptops
2. ISBoxer

@Funkydiddykong you don't have to remove it just open it from time to time :D

Aloha @Jesse_b and Everyone

@Kiwy Depends on what you call major. Apart from different meanings for a few words they are very similar. But, for example, if you tell an American that you're pissed, they will understand you to be angry, while a Brit will think you're drunk.

IK, just annoying having to swap, especially since you need to unplug external monitors logout and back into linux each time to get them working.

@terdon I always thought the former was Indian usage. At least when applied to a person.

1:43 PM

@FaheemMitha No, apparently it's a BrE thing.

@Kusalananda since you send this link about thunder, I'm watching the approach of the storm :D it's getting closer...

1 hour later…

2:52 PM

@Kiwy Yeah, I can see that! That thunderstorm is quite a bit bigger than anything we had today.

In the end, it missed us and we only got a short respite from the heat.

lightningmaps.org/…;

@terdon Even when you are referring to a girl as "homely"?

To my mind that means unattractive in Standard English.

@StephenKitt People often use words incorrectly. I wish they wouldn't.

@FaheemMitha M-W simply lists both meanings merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homely

@terdon There's a whole book about who? The OED editors?

@FaheemMitha yes

@terdon Really? What's the title?

3:06 PM

ODO gives one as British and the other as American: en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/homely

@terdon The word "homely" is popular (or used to be so) in Indian matrimonial ads.

@FaheemMitha I don't remember. My father was reading it and told me about it. It's the story of a specific lexicographer who produced most of the first editions of the OED, apparently.

I'm not completely sure what it means in that context, but I think it means someone who is happy cooking and cleaning. At any rate, that would be my guess.

Kinder, Küche, Kirche, that sort of thing. Or, as contemporary English would have it "barefoot and pregnant".

But it's still a generally desirable role in India, I believe.

@terdon Ok.

I've wondered sometimes who works on dictionaries. Their names don't seem to appear on it.

Sometimes the word "housewife" is used too.

@Kusalananda Funny fact I leave in the eye of the storm so some rain and wind for now but nothing too dramatic

3:36 PM

@Kiwy I've noticed that the lightning strikes seems to avoid city centers. I wonder if that is due to lightning rods on buildings "defusing" the charge before it becomes strong enough?

I think it's more about the atmosphere being very hot above town making some air flow limitating the impact

@Kiwy I've seen that around smaller towns as well, not just Lyon-sized places.

@Kusalananda I guess that's possible that's the first time I see that kind of map

4:00 PM

Wow that's amazing I though it was not really precise but I just saw one near my house and I saw the shokwave and I started to heard it exactly at the right moment

@Kusalananda thank you for that site, I'm going to watch it every time a thunder happen

@Kiwy yup, just heard the big one on Caluire

I do not know how they detect that, but it seems quiet precise, that's very impressive

@Kiwy see en.blitzortung.org/cover_your_area.php

@StephenKitt I want one detector home

@Kiwy 300 €...

4:06 PM

@StephenKitt I said I want one home I didn't say I wanted to pay for it :D

I could still sell the I7 8086 I win and buy one, but I'm considering to use it instead

@Kiwy wow you won an 8086, nice

An 8086 is a computer?

@FaheemMitha two CPUs: the original 8086, and a special edition i7 released recently

@StephenKitt I was really surprised but yes though my computer is 3 years old and I need 400€ to update it. So that's a poisen gift I don't want to sell it but I don't really want to spend that much money because my computer works perfectly

ark.intel.com/products/148263/…

@Kiwy right, new motherboard and new RAM

I imagine

4:14 PM

@FaheemMitha it's an intel CPU for the anniversary opf the x86 architecture and Intel organize a giveway of 8086 in world

@StephenKitt RAM ain't chip those days

@Kiwy So you won it? How? And is it useful for anything?

@Kiwy yup

@FaheemMitha it's very powerful and I could use it to emulate the PS3 as the emulator start to be usable

I'm confused. This looks like a modern CPU.

I thought the 8086 was something ancient.

@FaheemMitha like I said, there are two

4:16 PM

it's just the name which is reference to the first x8086 but it's basically the best i7 with higher clock rate

@Kiwy Still a bit confused. So they are giving the name of an old processor to a new processor? Why?

the x86 which is still the base of modern CPU has been invented 40 years ago

@Kiwy :-) that's what I do too.

@FaheemMitha Intel 8086 was the start of the x86 line

The 8086 (also called iAPX 86 ) is a 16-bit microprocessor chip designed by Intel between early 1976 and mid-1978, when it was released. The Intel 8088, released in 1979, is a slightly modified chip with an external 8-bit data bus (allowing the use of cheaper and fewer supporting ICs), and is notable as the processor used in the original IBM PC design, including the widespread version called IBM PC XT. The 8086 gave rise to the x86 architecture, which eventually became Intel's most successful line of processors. == History == === Background === In 1972, Intel launched the 8008, the firs...

@derobert Ok.

So?

4:21 PM

I got a $180 laptop on Prime day. Much, much slower than that i7 8086...

and I won in the giveway, they were 500 unit for France I'm very surprised because I never win anithing like that but I don't know what to do with it. Because I do not really need it but I for the fun I want it

But seems to run Buster perfectly, at least once installing non-free firmware.

@derobert depending of the component it can still be a good deal :D

It seems like it'll run mpv perfectly fine, which is its main use. Also sometimes LibreOffice. Or even Minecraft.

what is Buster @derobert

4:23 PM

@Kiwy Debian testing

Ho OK

@Kiwy Debian gets release names from "Toy Story". It's tradition.

@derobert So the i7 8086 is fast?

@FaheemMitha 5 GHz

@FaheemMitha yes

@FaheemMitha yeah I know but like most french I have seen all movie in Freznch version before I realized english version are often better (pixar are an exception though very good French version all the time) so I don't know any english caracter name and also I really do no like toy story, it's probably it my bottom list in the pixars movie

Cars being way below all the rest

4:28 PM

@Kiwy even people who’ve seen the movies in English don’t know all the character names, many of them are never named in the film itself, only in the credits

@StephenKitt :D well as mention not a fan of toy story so almost no chance I know them specially if they are not named during the movie

32

Q: Linux Debian codenames

I've got a few, quite silly, non-technical questions about giving codenames to Debian releases. Each Debian release has its unique codename, which is (so far) a characters' name from Toy Story movies by Pixar. Here is list of all assigned codenames so far: release 1.1 is buzz (Buzz Lightyear)...

debian distributions

@StephenKitt One of your early answers?

The original Toy Story movie was apparently rendered on Sun hardware. My department at uni was collaborating with Sun on high performance computing stuff, and we got to see a preview of the movie before it was released in the cinemas :-) That's the only Toy Story movie I've seen though.

There was a bookworm in Toy Story?

4:34 PM

@Kusalananda Sun was pretty amazing, if they had a bit better asset management they could have rule the world

@FaheemMitha in Toy Story 3

@StephenKitt I thought there were going with names from Toy Story.

@FaheemMitha see debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/…

> So far they have been characters taken from the "Toy Story" movies by Pixar.

@Kiwy Their HPC clusters were fun. We had a NUMA machine. The cache and memory management was amazingly complex. The data in RAM would migrate to be close to other CPUs depending on usage.

@StephenKitt I thought just the first movie.

I joined up at potato. I remember wondering what kind of name potato was for a computer system.

4:39 PM

@FaheemMitha right, when Debian was released there only was the first movie; I’m not sure Bruce Perens had planned ahead for a franchise

@StephenKitt Well, apparently they're not sticking just with the first movie.

@FaheemMitha exactly, I’m just saying that at first there was only one to consider; but as the quote above states, now they’re taken from the movies plural

@Kusalananda My father few years before they were bought by Oracle told me that they were completely inacurate regarding billing and that important thiung

and I heard that several time about them

@StephenKitt Yes, I understand.

2 hours later…

6:25 PM

@terdon: I think this qualifies as one of the answers you mentioned the other day: unix.stackexchange.com/review/low-quality-posts/252312

IMO it's okay because it is an attempt to answer while also asking for more information

6:41 PM

@Jesse_b Yeah, agreed. It does offer an answer.

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